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Author Topic: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!  (Read 28443 times)

monbvol

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #510 on: 02 August 2022, 16:29:29 »
I also feel obliged to submit the OHP's as candidates.

chanman

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #511 on: 02 August 2022, 16:54:59 »
I also feel obliged to submit the OHP's as candidates.

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nerd

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #512 on: 02 August 2022, 17:03:50 »
I always was fascinated by the ability of USS Long Beach to... you know, not capsize. It looks like the Borg tried to steal a Baltimore-class, and I love it- just so utilitarian, hideous, and distinctive.

I think (?) her hulk is still parked in Bremerton, stripped down to the main deck level, but I'm not 100% sure that they didn't get around to finally scrapping her.
The last 428" feet of her is. 10 years ago, when I left Bremerton, the hull was still mostly intact. What could be scrapped was sold off a few years ago.
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Daryk

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #513 on: 02 August 2022, 19:49:45 »
Sigh... noone likes irradiated steel these days...  ::)

mikecj

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #514 on: 02 August 2022, 20:57:40 »
The Royal Navy was already doing it in their interwar refits and new construction. See the 'Queen Anne's Mansion' on KGVs, Vanguard, and refitted QEs

Or Idaho, New Mexico, & sister ship. Those did not look like the Standards or the Fast Battleships.
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Giovanni Blasini

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #515 on: 03 August 2022, 00:40:38 »
Sigh... noone likes irradiated steel these days...  ::)

There are some things you just can't use irradiated steel for.
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Nightlord01

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #516 on: 03 August 2022, 05:03:11 »
Sigh... noone likes irradiated steel these days...  ::)

It has its uses, a few grams at a time generally.

chanman

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #517 on: 03 August 2022, 10:35:46 »
There are some things you just can't use irradiated steel for.

Look, do you want tracer rounds for Gauss rifles or not?  :D

Colt Ward

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #518 on: 09 August 2022, 11:23:48 »
After someone made a comment about the Austrian navy . . . it occurred to me we rarely see anything about them, and afaik it did not exist going into WWII.


This is 3 of the 4 in the Tegetthoff class, last was delayed in production due initially internal politics and later the outbreak of WWI.  The Austrian navy was penned up in the Adriatic.  When the fleet tried to break out with the battleships and subs leading the way through the straits, the last ship in the class was torpedoed by a Italian motor torpedo boat.


This is the 4th ship in the class, the SMS Szent Istvan sinking after she was struck by the torpedo.




She ended up capsizing . . . and yeah, that is men in the water- no lifeboats?  Due to how long it took her to sink from taking 2 torpedo strikes amidships near her boilers (doused, not exploded) only 89 men of the 1087 complement was lost.

The class was armed with 4 triple 12in turrets and 12 single 5.9in guns along with 4 torpedo tubes as her main armaments.  With a loaded displacement of 21.7kt, she could achieve 20 knots.

The German Kriegsmarine would later honor one of these battleships by named a cruiser Prinz Eugen . . . since it matches classes, we could actually say the mutineers of the SLDF had their ship named after a Austrian battleship.
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Failure16

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #519 on: 09 August 2022, 17:59:21 »
Nice spread of images, CW.

I would say that actually being able to man a lifeboat from a warship sunk as a result of enemy action is pretty rare, especially in WWI-II.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #520 on: 09 August 2022, 18:49:34 »
Absolutely, and per the story they had most the crew topside leaning over the rail to try to counter the list . . . but by the time of the 2nd picture when the deck is awash . . . it is time to have the boats ready.  Still a very low casualty incident.

Found this one a bit later on, that is her sister ship of the class name-


Meant to include this-



And I found a new fun warship name . . .

 . . . meet the destroyer, SMS Wildfang.




She was a Huszar class destroyer- silhouette on the upper right- which I assume translates to English as Hussar.  Built to a British design called 'turtlebacks' by torpedo craft specialist Yarrow which built something similar for the Royal Navy and the Japanese.  Triple expansion steam engines drove them to 28 knots, armed with one 66mm gun (2.6in), seven 47mm (1.9in) guns, and two 45cm torpedo tubes.
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Daryk

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #521 on: 12 August 2022, 23:37:35 »
PT boats being able to pull that kind of thing off is why Destroyers were invented...  ^-^

Wrangler

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #522 on: 13 August 2022, 10:29:25 »
PT boats being able to pull that kind of thing off is why Destroyers were invented...  ^-^
Didn't destroyers start out what PT boats were?
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Daryk

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #523 on: 13 August 2022, 10:30:56 »
The original name was "PT Boat Destroyer"...  ^-^

glitterboy2098

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #524 on: 13 August 2022, 12:42:09 »
Didn't destroyers start out what PT boats were?
not exactly, PT boats started out as "torpedo boats", which tended to be what we now consider corvette sized. they shrank a lot as technology advanced. (not having to use steam power for example meant you could shed a lot of hull weight while also raising speed.) PT boats evolved from the lower end versions of them, which sacrificed long range endurance for speed and agility.

Torpedo boat destroyers were larger and originally mounted fast firing light naval guns to take out the TB's.. then evolved to mount torpedoes of their own to make them more use in fleet actions where TB's weren't present. as technology improved they eventually became general light combat units with the role of defensive operations in a fleet, and the "torpedoe boat" aspect go dropped from the name, because they'd become "torpedo boat, submarine, and aircraft destroyers"
by ww2 these roles would see the 'destroyer' role further broken up into corvette, frigate, and destroyer categories based on size and specialization.

I am Belch II

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #525 on: 13 August 2022, 18:34:46 »
I remember watching one of those commercials for one those WW1 docs videos really promoting the action and had a film of the  SMS Szent István rolling over. I didn't know what ship it was, but it looked modern for a WW1 ship.
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Nightlord01

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #526 on: 13 August 2022, 23:31:36 »
by ww2 these roles would see the 'destroyer' role further broken up into corvette, frigate, and destroyer categories based on size and specialization.

The term la frégate, or frigate, significantly pre-dates WWII. It's french for a light, fast, warship, they certainly didn't derive their role or specialisation from destroyers.

Frigates actually are the genesis for cruisers, and it's not that they've taken on destroyer roles in recent times so much as that all ships have become functionally multi-role and the old definitions are somewhat defunct.

It's tragically hillarious that the largest ships involved in fleet on fleet engagements are called destroyers, but this is entirely at the feet of the rule of cool and popular opinion. Destroyer is objectively a cooler term than frigate, and thus they must be larger and more heavily armed, right?

glitterboy2098

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #527 on: 14 August 2022, 00:29:11 »
and corvette is an old term as well. but both corvette and frigate were largely dead terms by ww1, and got resurrected to describe new types of ship roles that had little connection to their age of sail origins as the torpedoboat destroyers diversified into various different sizes and doctrinal roles beyond guarding agaisnt torpedo boats.

chanman

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #528 on: 14 August 2022, 01:27:49 »
and corvette is an old term as well. but both corvette and frigate were largely dead terms by ww1, and got resurrected to describe new types of ship roles that had little connection to their age of sail origins as the torpedoboat destroyers diversified into various different sizes and doctrinal roles beyond guarding agaisnt torpedo boats.

Well, WW2. And it's funny how modern frigates and corvettes have little to do the WW2 ships the terms were revived to describe

Wrangler

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #529 on: 14 August 2022, 13:19:45 »
Well, WW2. And it's funny how modern frigates and corvettes have little to do the WW2 ships the terms were revived to describe
British were using the Corvette designation for some types of ships such as Flowers Class.
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chanman

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #530 on: 14 August 2022, 15:10:35 »
British were using the Corvette designation for some types of ships such as Flowers Class.

Yes, that would be one of the WW2 vessels the designation was revived to describe. My point is that WW2 corvettes are slow, oceangoing ASW escorts based on a civilian platform and construction standards. WW2 frigates were similarly slow ASW escorts built to civilian construction standards with a second shaft and increased size, making them fairly similar to pre-war sloops like the Black Swan class.

Modern corvettes are mostly littoral ships, mostly split between fast attack roles like the Skjold or Tarantul, (overgrown missile boats and closer to WW2 MTB/PT boats) or multi-function ships (Sa'ar, Type 056) and sometimes other stuff (The Pohangs are more gunboats than anything else), but none of them are slow ASW escorts or built to merchant shipping standards. Ditto with modern frigates which are now a catch-all term for general purpose surface warships.

kato

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #531 on: 14 August 2022, 17:06:01 »
Torpedo boat destroyers were larger and originally mounted fast firing light naval guns to take out the TB's.. then evolved to mount torpedoes of their own to make them more use in fleet actions where TB's weren't present. as technology improved they eventually became general light combat units with the role of defensive operations in a fleet, and the "torpedoe boat" aspect go dropped from the name, because they'd become "torpedo boat, submarine, and aircraft destroyers"
Technically torpedo boat destroyers were originally all classified as "torpedo cruisers" and "torpedo gunboats" - and they were all large torpedo boats themselves of about the size of a WW2 sloop or a modern large corvette, intended mostly as defensive screens for fleets.

These classes - alongside most torpedo boat classes (!) - were pretty much globally discarded around 1905-1910 and either scrapped, rebuilt into minesweepers or (larger ships) renamed into "torpedo boat destroyers" at that point.

Germany built socalled "large torpedo boats" throughout WW1. They were the same size (~70m length, ~700 tons) and had the same function as "torpedo boat destroyers" in other navies at the time.

So there were basically a whole lot of "torpedo boat destroyers" in WW1 and the 1920s, but there weren't really all that many torpedo boats around at the time on any side. MTBs, PTs and similar classes of WW2 or any comparable small vessel didn't come about until the mid 1930s.

Daryk

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #532 on: 14 August 2022, 17:27:01 »
Thanks for the extra details Kato!  :thumbsup:

Colt Ward

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #533 on: 15 August 2022, 09:49:42 »


First US destroyer sunk by enemy fire discovered by Brit divers.
https://news.yahoo.com/divers-wreckage-first-u-destroyer-102136419.html



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« Last Edit: 15 August 2022, 09:51:41 by Colt Ward »
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Daryk

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #534 on: 15 August 2022, 09:50:37 »
The first two images came through, but not the third? ???

Euphonium

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #535 on: 18 August 2022, 15:46:17 »
Wreck of a US destroyer from WWI has been found:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-cornwall-62597453
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Daryk

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #536 on: 18 August 2022, 17:26:03 »
Nice find Euphonium, thanks for sharing!  :thumbsup:

kato

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #537 on: 18 August 2022, 18:01:38 »
The term la frégate, or frigate, significantly pre-dates WWII. It's french for a light, fast, warship, they certainly didn't derive their role or specialisation from destroyers.
For reference: USS Constitution, the oldest current ship in the USN, and her class was built and commissioned as a "heavy" frigate back in the 1790s.

The heyday of traditional frigates that actually conformed to a semi-standardized set of constraints and named such was between ca 1750 and 1790, with well in excess of 100 built during 4-5 decades in various European countries. The moniker itself had been used since the 1630s in France and the 1670s in the UK, but back then referred to a variety of "fast" ship designs of various types (up to and including some ships-of-the-line).

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #538 on: 18 August 2022, 19:23:48 »
I would extend the period to include the French Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars.
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glitterboy2098

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #539 on: 18 August 2022, 19:34:04 »
but the term frigate was pretty much dead by the time of the late 1800's, then the term got resurrected after ww1 to describe ships that had basically no connection to that age of sail concept. which is my point.

also worth noting.. while age of sail frigates were generally faster than ships of the line, this was because of the features that made them frigates, which was the single gundeck and lack of fore and aft castles, which allowed for a lower hull and extra sail. (it was not uncommon at times for lesser ships of the line like 3rd and 4th rates to be 'cutdown' into single gundeck frigates. such Razee Frigates benefited from the stronger hull construction of ships of the line, while gaining a little bit of speed. not as much as purpose built frigates though.)

the term 'armored frigate' was in use in the early 1800's when steam powered ironclads retained sails and still largely used the same gun deck layouts as wooden ships, but the term died out as innovations in turrets, hulls, and engines moved ships farther an farther away from age of sail concepts.

there is a period between roughly the 1880's and the 1930's where the term 'frigate' was not in use to refer to any existing service military craft. and when it came back it was to describe specialized anti-submarine escorts of a specific tonnage range. a role and size that no age of sail ship ever had to deal with.
« Last Edit: 18 August 2022, 19:43:47 by glitterboy2098 »

 

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