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Author Topic: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise  (Read 98316 times)

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #30 on: 18 November 2018, 20:08:41 »
I'd go with that too, and call it incompletely labeled as far as the pic goes.

Kidd

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #31 on: 18 November 2018, 20:12:42 »
Maybe the diagram only shows those systems and compartments relevant to what is suspected to be the San Juan's cause of death?

Actual pics are out btw. Looks somewhat fragmented, as one would expect of a sub post-implosion.





This looks like the bow, with torpedo tubes now visible



From the survey pics previously shown, looks like she broke in at least four biggish pieces (and a lot of smaller fragments, yes). Maybe they'll be structurally intact enough to salvage.

« Last Edit: 18 November 2018, 20:16:09 by Kidd »

Wrangler

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #32 on: 18 November 2018, 21:42:07 »
Seems like their navy is putting up smoke screen to make people think their ship was stern had no issues from shipyard work.

Back to the Spanish-American War era. Which had alot fascinating designs.

USS Iowa, largest US Battleship (Pre-Dreadnought) of the conflict.



I hadn't noticed how many of these older ships had the same hull design echoed by the Zumwalt Class.
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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #33 on: 18 November 2018, 22:35:30 »
Apparently it was a holdover of sorts from the age of sail, and helped to reduce the weight of decks and armored decks on top as well as improve seakeeping in some conditions.  According to Wikipedia, the loss of 3/4 of the Borodinos - all with tumblehome hulls - was part of the reason why it fell out of favor, citing "extreme instability" when the hull's breached and there's flooding.

Also, RE: San Juan: damn, that thing's definitely done.  I had trouble believing that an imploded hull would be "intact" as described.  I'll call it an error in translation and say "it's not so much in one piece as one pile" instead.  With the clear stress the ship's been through, I daresay it's not coming up and raising it certainly won't bring back her whole crew.
« Last Edit: 18 November 2018, 22:37:02 by ANS Kamas P81 »

kato

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #34 on: 18 November 2018, 23:48:25 »
I had trouble believing that an imploded hull would be "intact" as described.
The pressure vessel of the submarine is intact. The hull itself imploded, with the pile being those parts of it outside the pressure vessel that ripped off from it. The four large parts are therefore the pressure vessel itself, the bow section with the torpedo room, the aft section where the propeller is mounted and the sail.

beachhead1985

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #35 on: 18 November 2018, 23:53:36 »
But is the equipment to do that just sitting around somewhere? Who has that?
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Kidd

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #36 on: 19 November 2018, 02:00:03 »
The Argentine Govt acknowledges it's doable. The (apparent) question is financing.

marauder648

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #37 on: 19 November 2018, 04:04:00 »




The USS Maine, a curious ship that was actually based on and built to fight the Brazilian Battleship Aquidaba



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Wrangler

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #38 on: 19 November 2018, 08:45:05 »
Wait...the Main was made to fight a Brazilian PreDreadnought??
Why??
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HobbesHurlbut

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #39 on: 19 November 2018, 08:48:04 »
Wait...the Main was made to fight a Brazilian PreDreadnought??
Why??
because USA considered the Americas her own turf. Manifest Destiny and Monroe Doctrine.
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marauder648

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #40 on: 19 November 2018, 10:40:43 »
And the Brazilian ship was more powerful than anything the USN had at the time.  The US navy was in a terrible state and it took the wake up call of the Brazilians building a trio of pretty powerful ships that were more potent than anything the US had to shake them out of their complacency and start to order some more powerful ships like the Maine and her close sister the Texas, as well as the three Indiana class ships which were classed as (and in reality were) coast defence ships, the Maine was an armoured cruiser and the Texas was also seen as an armoured cruiser (later reclassified as a battleship)

But the two Brazilian battleships

Riachuleo



and the Aquidabã



were waaaaaaay ahead of anything the USN had and that prompted this quote

"if all this old navy of ours were drawn up in battle array in mid-ocean and confronted by the Riachuelo it is doubtful whether a single vessel bearing the American flag would get into port"  and helped give the US government the kick up the butt it needed to actually fund the navy.

And speaking of early US Battleships, the Kearsarge class was quite unique (although not the only USN battleship to do so with mounting 8-inch guns above the 12 or in this case 13-inch main guns)

« Last Edit: 19 November 2018, 10:43:35 by marauder648 »
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Kidd

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #41 on: 19 November 2018, 11:46:18 »
I dunno, predreads aren't my thing, but the Kearsarge looks particularly ugly even for a predread.

JadeHellbringer

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #42 on: 19 November 2018, 11:49:58 »
I dunno, predreads aren't my thing, but the Kearsarge looks particularly ugly even for a predread.

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(Mid-size batteries again mounted atop the main batteries, though square-shaped instead of rounded like on the prior ships. The dazzle-camo makes that hard to make out, but trust me, it's there. The colors for this are marked as grey, black, white, green, and red)
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Kidd

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #43 on: 19 November 2018, 11:57:23 »
It's those long-barrelled casemate guns and spindly masts that get me. Damn thing looks like it has no sense of proportion at all.

Sabelkatten

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #44 on: 19 November 2018, 12:05:04 »
Reading about the Virginias on Wiki provided a rather interesting what-if. The winning armament was 4x 12" plus 8x 8" - but it only beat out the alternative of 10x 10" by a small margin. US almost got the first dreadnought before the British started building theirs!

grimlock1

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #45 on: 19 November 2018, 12:19:32 »
And speaking of early US Battleships, the Kearsarge class was quite unique (although not the only USN battleship to do so with mounting 8-inch guns above the 12 or in this case 13-inch main guns)


Does that have a bow turret and broadsides?
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marauder648

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #46 on: 19 November 2018, 13:05:38 »
Does that have a bow turret and broadsides?

She's got a fore and aft turret both with 2 x 13 inch and 2 x 8-inch in the arrangement you see, and then there's 5-inch guns along the side.

Remember that at the time, the gunnery ranges were short, 4000 yards was long range by the standards of the time and 2000 yards was a bit more like it for accurate shooting. The big guns shoot fairly slowly and because of poor fire control at the time, you had to be lucky to land a hit with a big gun.  So lots of quick firing 5 or 6-inch guns tended to be the real main armament, at those sort of ranges.

Only the most heavily armoured sections could resist gunfire from those size guns and with their rate of fire and in turn better hit chance (you're slinging more poo at the wall than the 13-inchers who are firing 1 every minute or so), the smaller guns are going to do more damage.

The USN was an early adopter of an intermediate caliber gun with 8 and 7 inch guns appearing on USN Battleships, again with them its the same kind of principle as the 6-inch weapons, a higher rate of fire and at typical battle ranges an 8-inch guns got near the same armour penetrating punch of a 13-inch round, the big difference is the amount of boom.
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kato

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #47 on: 19 November 2018, 14:11:41 »
Spanish Battleship Pelayo, commissioned in 1885 - here in 1889:



Still carried her main armament in barbettes, i.e. covered ring mounts instead of turrets: a 12.6-inch each forward and aft, and a 11-inch on either side forward of the superstructure.

Secondary armament considered of a 6.3-inch bow gun and six 4.7-inch guns in casemates on either broadside. Just before the war these guns were to be refitted by a uniform battery of 5.5-inch guns (bow gun plus four each broadside), although this was cancelled as she was rushed back into service - even if she never took part in any battle in that war.

Her main armament was used in the 1909 Rif War to bombard the Moroccan coast. Rate of fire was 5 minutes per round per gun for the 12.6-inch, the 11-inch fired at one round per minute.

Wrangler

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #48 on: 19 November 2018, 16:02:26 »
Almost looks like stately heavy armed smaller Titanic.
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beachhead1985

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #49 on: 19 November 2018, 18:16:43 »
The Argentine Govt acknowledges it's doable. The (apparent) question is financing.

Okay...colour me impressed as all hell.
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Kidd

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #50 on: 19 November 2018, 19:18:40 »
Okay...colour me impressed as all hell.
I mean... caveat here, doable and feasible are two somewhat different things. Like a billion dollars different, apparently, unless Ocean Infinity comes up with a much lower cost estimate. I don't think anybody can shell out that kind of change on the spot, except maybe the US, and why would they get involved...?

marauder648

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #51 on: 20 November 2018, 05:55:37 »
Unfortunately Argentina can't really afford the cost of the salvage op, and its not going to be quick, easy or cheap. But any further discussion about that will probably happily jump into Rule 4 territory so lets not go there.

Instead.

Danton class Battleships!

When designed they would have been the most powerful ships in the world, when actually launched they were amongst the worse.  Caught out by the changing times and hamstrung by the inefficiency of French naval yards (and their almost compulsive need to tinker with ships which in the Danton classes case even saw some ships getting completed sections and rooms ripped out and rebuilt to a new design), they were amongst the best pre-dreadnoughts.

That entered service in 1911 when Dreadnoughts had been around nearly 6 years and the first Super Dreadnoughts were coming online.







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Wrangler

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #52 on: 20 November 2018, 09:34:16 »
Weren't the main turrets on the edges of the hull vulnernable to being knocked out?
Picture of the Danton shows a turret on side highly vulnerable below the turret itself. I must been thin armor belt where that is.
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marauder648

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #53 on: 20 November 2018, 10:30:31 »
Not as vulnerable as one might think, the turret sits atop a thickly armoured barbette which covered the shell and propellant hoists which was in turn covered by the armour of the hull.  And hitting a fairly small target at combat ranges wasn't easy.
Of course with battleships, really at the ranges you would be expected to fight at, you're really aiming at centre of mass as hitting a specific part of a ship was exceptionally difficult to the point of not being worth aiming at. 
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #54 on: 20 November 2018, 11:07:18 »
What wing-turrets like that DO end up doing though is make for a ship that really likes rolling- the weight on the flanks makes for a tough time in rough seas, one of the reasons the British were so happy to get away from doing that with their later dreadnought designs (and eventually the Germans as well). It also, obviously, means that portside wing mounts can't fire to starboard and vice-versa, so that's not particularly ideal- I always wonder what at must have been like to be in a far-sided wing mount on one of the dreadnoughts at Jutland, waiting for a shell to crash in and kill you but not being able to do much to fight back.

There are advantages to it too, of course, otherwise no one would ever have done it. One thing it does is move those midships gun mounts out to the sides instead of along the center (such as the midship mounts on, say, the Arkansas or Fuso), which means the area used for the boilers and engines aren't being used for ammo hoists and such- that means the ship isn't as cramped in the middle, and doesn't have to be as long. That in turn means a shorter armor belt, and thus less weight having to be devoted to a long belt- which means either a savings of weight that can be used elsewhere, or simply a thicker belt than you otherwise could have done for the same weight. The Nassau, Germany's first dreadnought, paints this picture pretty well for an early dreadnought design- she's stumpy compared to her foe across the North Sea, but much tougher thanks to the hexagonal arrangement of her guns. She also can only point eight in any direction at once, of course, which isn't ideal. She's shorter than Dreadnought because she moved guns to the sides, and thus made for a more compact arrangement. However, the Americans accomplished the same with the South Carolina- eight guns pointed on the broadside, short and stout design, etc. despite only using four turrets instead of six- superfiring turrets made for a greater metacentric height, but a far more efficient way of doing things.

(Nassau, from an airship, showing her unique arrangement)

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grimlock1

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #55 on: 20 November 2018, 12:24:17 »
Idle question:  I was at the USS Midway museum a few years back and I had the chance to speak with a docent who used to fly off the Midway.  He described landing on the Midway to be more difficult than some other ships, because she had a more pronounced rolling motion.  Given that I know next to nothing about naval architecture, what should I feed into Google to get a deeper answer to this question?
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #56 on: 20 November 2018, 12:34:09 »
Idle question:  I was at the USS Midway museum a few years back and I had the chance to speak with a docent who used to fly off the Midway.  He described landing on the Midway to be more difficult than some other ships, because she had a more pronounced rolling motion.  Given that I know next to nothing about naval architecture, what should I feed into Google to get a deeper answer to this question?

For Midway specifically? Or for ships in-general?
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kato

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #57 on: 20 November 2018, 13:23:19 »
(Nassau, from an airship, showing her unique arrangement)
Not quite unique; the layout was retained for the followon Helgoland class laid down the next year.

The class that followed that - the Kaiser class - mixed it all up as far as typologies are concerned:
- one turret forward
- one turret each side in echelons midships (not parallel, and not mounted such that they could have actually fired across the ship either...)
- two turrets in superfiring arrangement aft

The König class that followed that then replaced the midship turrets with a single one on the center line and moved the second one into a superfiring configuration with the forward turret.
And the Bayern class after that simply removed the centerline midship turret.

Ruger

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #58 on: 20 November 2018, 14:04:27 »
Idle question:  I was at the USS Midway museum a few years back and I had the chance to speak with a docent who used to fly off the Midway.  He described landing on the Midway to be more difficult than some other ships, because she had a more pronounced rolling motion.  Given that I know next to nothing about naval architecture, what should I feed into Google to get a deeper answer to this question?

The Wikipedia entry for the class as a whole has an explanation on the rolling...it was on Midway only and after she was bulged in 1986.

Ruger
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #59 on: 20 November 2018, 15:01:09 »
...yeah, I meant 'unique' more in a 'Germans tried this and nobody else' way.
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