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Author Topic: Naval Pictures VIII: From Japan with love  (Read 15651 times)

Ruger

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Re: Naval Pictures VIII: From Japan with love
« Reply #330 on: 28 November 2020, 07:50:27 »
This just popped up on Reddit.

USS Saratoga CV-3 with the South Dakota Class Battleship, BB-58, USS Indiana in the Pacific in 1943.


I always thought the Saratoga was a beautiful lady.

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Re: Naval Pictures VIII: From Japan with love
« Reply #331 on: 29 November 2020, 02:57:21 »
Would that be headed to Panama?
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GreyWolfActual

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Re: Naval Pictures VIII: From Japan with love
« Reply #332 on: 29 November 2020, 12:58:30 »
Almost certainly not. The Saratoga never left the Pacific during the war.
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kato

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Re: Naval Pictures VIII: From Japan with love
« Reply #333 on: 29 November 2020, 14:42:47 »

The picture was definitely taken at New Caledonia, from the background probably Dumbea Bay just north of Noumea.

TF 64 with the two ships was there in December '42 to January '43 replenishing fuel and ammunition before training air raids from Saratoga.

Noumea, after the French had thrown the Vichy government off the island in 1940, became the main South Pacific fleet base for the US Navy from 1942 on with Australian assistance, with the US deploying up to 50,000 soldiers on the island - equivalent to its population.

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chanman

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Re: Naval Pictures VIII: From Japan with love
« Reply #335 on: 01 December 2020, 14:42:45 »


Well . . . it is not a surprise, but it was confirmed-
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/navy-to-scrap-uss-bonhomme-richard-after-days-long-fire/ar-BB1bvdic?ocid=uxbndlbing

One does not simply walk off a 4-day long fire. I'm not sure if flooding the ship (assuming that was even possible mid-refit) would have been better or worse. On the one hand, you have to check for water damage in all the fittings, but it is a ship. As long as you don't leave it underwater for 4 months like the HNoMS Helge Ingstad.

On the other hand, structuring weakening from heat is pretty fatal to a ship.

Speaking of ships lost to collisions - nothing new here. HMS Gladiator (second-class armoured cruiser) was wrecked by a collision in bad weather back in 1908


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Re: Naval Pictures VIII: From Japan with love
« Reply #336 on: 01 December 2020, 14:44:38 »
It's pity they weren't able repurpose the ship as perhaps a fire fighting training platform or something. God knows they could use something like that.

If the ship too far gone,  there nothing you can do about it.
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kato

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Re: Naval Pictures VIII: From Japan with love
« Reply #337 on: 01 December 2020, 15:01:47 »
One does not simply walk off a 4-day long fire.
France is doing it with Perle after it burned out six months ago. And they're planning to return her to service in a couple months already, at only around 120 million cost (of which 50 million is covered by insurance).

Although the plan there is simply to cut off the undamaged rear half of the submarine with the reactor and propulsion sections and then mate that with the front half of retired submarine Saphir of the same class.

chanman

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Re: Naval Pictures VIII: From Japan with love
« Reply #338 on: 01 December 2020, 15:13:58 »
France is doing it with Perle after it burned out six months ago. And they're planning to return her to service in a couple months already, at only around 120 million cost (of which 50 million is covered by insurance).

Although the plan there is simply to cut off the undamaged rear half of the submarine with the reactor and propulsion sections and then mate that with the front half of retired submarine Saphir of the same class.

Getting a half body transplant is hardly walking it off  :D

But Perle/Saphir needs a pithy composite name now. Paphir perhaps?

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Re: Naval Pictures VIII: From Japan with love
« Reply #339 on: 01 December 2020, 16:08:02 »
It's pity they weren't able repurpose the ship as perhaps a fire fighting training platform or something. God knows they could use something like that.

If the ship too far gone,  there nothing you can do about it.

It all comes down to time and money,

Something like 40% of the interior of the ship burned, the deck was badly damaged, etc.  That's a lot of damage to be repaired.

Could it be repaired?  Yes, it could.  But to put it back to the way it was would take 5-7 years and cost between $2.5 and $3.2 billion to do, on a ship that's already 22 years old, when a new America class LHD costs around $3.4 billion to build, which would be a new hull with all the improvements between the Wasp class and the America class.

Could you convert it to something else?  Yes: conversion to a hospital ship was considered, but that would cost $1 billion, too, also take 5-7 years, and produce another large hospital ship akin to the two we already have.  Conversion to a submarine tender was also considered, but would cost about the same, and in either case, you're ending up with a ship that's kludged into the role, and less efficient than a purpose-built ship would be, which might come in under the conversion cost on top of everything else.

This also comes at a time when the Marines and Navy are considering moving towards a larger number of smaller Light Amphibious Warships, which are only 200 ft long, and don't put anywhere near as many eggs in one large basket:



Consider also there's ships like the USS Lewis B. Puller:



The ESBs are basically commercial tankers converted to operate as forward staging bases/helicopter platforms, and are variations of the Expeditionary Transfer Dock ships like the USNS John Glenn or USNS Monford Point (pictured):



Yes, that's launching one of the three LCACs it can carry.

These ships might be larger than the Wasp class, but they're arguably cheaper, put less on one hull, and have fewer people, so if they get hit by an anti-ship cruise missile, there's fewer people lost, same as with the Light Amphibious Warship concept.

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Re: Naval Pictures VIII: From Japan with love
« Reply #340 on: 01 December 2020, 17:39:11 »
I think with the cruise industry reeling from the pandemic and many lines retiring fairly new ships, there's a much cheaper source of potential new hospital ships. Probably a much easier conversion as well.
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Re: Naval Pictures VIII: From Japan with love
« Reply #341 on: 01 December 2020, 19:22:22 »
I think with the cruise industry reeling from the pandemic and many lines retiring fairly new ships, there's a much cheaper source of potential new hospital ships. Probably a much easier conversion as well.

And Carnival Cruise Lines was already talking about using some of their ships for that purpose as far back as March.  I've no doubt that would be a better solution long-term, though maybe you don't need ones as big as our current one.  In fact, that's been one of the options I thought the California State Naval Militia (yes, that's technically a thing) could consider with the California Department of Public Health for a smaller hospital ship: smaller, 200-ft cruise ships are under $3 million on the open market (something like this springs to mind), and would be able to be converted to a small hospital ship.

Something like that would probably be cheaper to operate than an JHSV/EFT, though smaller, and not as fast.
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Charlie 6

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Re: Naval Pictures VIII: From Japan with love
« Reply #342 on: 01 December 2020, 19:59:10 »
And Carnival Cruise Lines was already talking about using some of their ships for that purpose as far back as March.  I've no doubt that would be a better solution long-term, though maybe you don't need ones as big as our current one.  In fact, that's been one of the options I thought the California State Naval Militia (yes, that's technically a thing) could consider with the California Department of Public Health for a smaller hospital ship: smaller, 200-ft cruise ships are under $3 million on the open market (something like this springs to mind), and would be able to be converted to a small hospital ship.

Something like that would probably be cheaper to operate than an JHSV/EFT, though smaller, and not as fast.
To put it another way, about the only part of the ship that didn't burn were the engineering spaces.  Unfortunately, LHD 1-7 and the two LCCs are the only steam powered vessels left in the USN.  The manpower and maintenance pipelines are going to go away in the next 10 to 15 years so why bother bringing in a ship with a ~40 year lifespan to drag that out longer.

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Re: Naval Pictures VIII: From Japan with love
« Reply #343 on: 01 December 2020, 20:55:39 »
To put it another way, about the only part of the ship that didn't burn were the engineering spaces.  Unfortunately, LHD 1-7 and the two LCCs are the only steam powered vessels left in the USN.

Huh?  Nukes use steam to generate the electricity . . .
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Charlie 6

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Re: Naval Pictures VIII: From Japan with love
« Reply #344 on: 01 December 2020, 21:16:57 »
Huh?  Nukes use steam to generate the electricity . . .
Yes, and that's why they are nuclear powered but if I recall my ship systems class of 20 plus years ago steam ships use fuel oil to fire boilers to heat the feed water to steam.

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Re: Naval Pictures VIII: From Japan with love
« Reply #345 on: 01 December 2020, 21:46:18 »
Yes, and that's why they are nuclear powered but if I recall my ship systems class of 20 plus years ago steam ships use fuel oil to fire boilers to heat the feed water to steam.

Actually, there's no reason a nuke can't run the propulsion off the same turbine except for design preference. 

Here's the thing: the electricity isn't just 'produced' from the steam, the basics of a nuclear power plant (on that scale) are that it boils the water into steam, which turns a turbine, it's the turbine that generates the power by mechanical means.

Basically all the nuke is for, is a heat source for the water.  It's theoretically possible to convert any external combustion system to use nuclear power as your thermal source.

you could even power triple-expansion engines off it, or sterling engines.  It doesn't really matter, all you need is a boiler built to accept the nuclear fuel instead of a gas, coal or oil burner as your heat source.
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Re: Naval Pictures VIII: From Japan with love
« Reply #346 on: 01 December 2020, 22:58:17 »
Actually, there's no reason a nuke can't run the propulsion off the same turbine except for design preference. 

Here's the thing: the electricity isn't just 'produced' from the steam, the basics of a nuclear power plant (on that scale) are that it boils the water into steam, which turns a turbine, it's the turbine that generates the power by mechanical means.

Basically all the nuke is for, is a heat source for the water.  It's theoretically possible to convert any external combustion system to use nuclear power as your thermal source.

you could even power triple-expansion engines off it, or sterling engines.  It doesn't really matter, all you need is a boiler built to accept the nuclear fuel instead of a gas, coal or oil burner as your heat source.
Yep. It's just that turbines are the most efficient way to use steam to make things move. However, the KOG set up a system to ensure the Navy maintained the trust of the nation in operating nuclear plants. NR is rightly cursed at times.

As for the manpower pipelines, there was a Senior Chief in another unit I knew of who wore a belt buckle with the old Boiler Technician rating badge. He had a waiver to stay in after age 60, because there were so few personnel who knew steam plants.
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Re: Naval Pictures VIII: From Japan with love
« Reply #347 on: 02 December 2020, 09:03:41 »

Speaking of ships lost to collisions - nothing new here. HMS Gladiator (second-class armoured cruiser) was wrecked by a collision in bad weather back in 1908


Then there is the Queen Mary/Curacoa disaster...

https://www.navyhistory.org.au/ss-queen-mary-the-loss-of-hms-curacoa-1942/
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Re: Naval Pictures VIII: From Japan with love
« Reply #348 on: 02 December 2020, 11:16:19 »
I saw a list somewhere of all RN ships lost to collisions. There were a bunch in the late 18 hundreds!

Ram bows really weren't the greatest idea ever... ::)

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Re: Naval Pictures VIII: From Japan with love
« Reply #349 on: 02 December 2020, 11:16:33 »
Set Laser to Burn - USS Portland firing it's laser.

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Re: Naval Pictures VIII: From Japan with love
« Reply #350 on: 02 December 2020, 12:45:30 »
Set Laser to Burn - USS Portland firing it's laser.



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Re: Naval Pictures VIII: From Japan with love
« Reply #351 on: 02 December 2020, 16:52:33 »
To put it another way, about the only part of the ship that didn't burn were the engineering spaces.  Unfortunately, LHD 1-7 and the two LCCs are the only steam powered vessels left in the USN.  The manpower and maintenance pipelines are going to go away in the next 10 to 15 years so why bother bringing in a ship with a ~40 year lifespan to drag that out longer.
Most have gone over to gas turbines.  An Arleigh Burke acceleration and crash stop are impressive.
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Re: Naval Pictures VIII: From Japan with love
« Reply #352 on: 02 December 2020, 17:18:57 »
Most have gone over to gas turbines.  An Arleigh Burke acceleration and crash stop are impressive.
Personally, Virginia-Class Nuclear Guided Cruisers were more impressive me when they did their turns.


Like USS Mississippi CGN-40 doing her S turns.
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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Naval Pictures VIII: From Japan with love
« Reply #353 on: 02 December 2020, 17:41:55 »
That's damn near drifting a nuclear-powered cruiser.  I'm impressed.

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Re: Naval Pictures VIII: From Japan with love
« Reply #354 on: 02 December 2020, 18:27:11 »
Personally, Virginia-Class Nuclear Guided Cruisers were more impressive me when they did their turns.


Like USS Mississippi CGN-40 doing her S turns.
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Re: Naval Pictures VIII: From Japan with love
« Reply #355 on: 02 December 2020, 18:38:02 »
I'm still somewhat surprised the US retired the CGNs as early as they did or, perhaps more accurately, that they didn't replace them with new CGNs.  Yes, the Ticos were slightly cheaper overall to operate than the California class (in 1998, $38.8 million to $29.5 million, evidently), but there's a lot to be said for having your carrier group's air defense cruisers using nuclear powerplants, and not having to worry about replenishing their fuel loads.
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Re: Naval Pictures VIII: From Japan with love
« Reply #356 on: 02 December 2020, 18:43:01 »
I'm still somewhat surprised the US retired the CGNs as early as they did or, perhaps more accurately, that they didn't replace them with new CGNs.  Yes, the Ticos were slightly cheaper overall to operate than the California class (in 1998, $38.8 million to $29.5 million, evidently), but there's a lot to be said for having your carrier group's air defense cruisers using nuclear powerplants, and not having to worry about replenishing their fuel loads.
Price to refuel, they also had old style missile launchers unlike Spruance and Tico's, and i remember reading somewhere they weren't suitable for VLS upgrades.
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Re: Naval Pictures VIII: From Japan with love
« Reply #357 on: 02 December 2020, 18:59:41 »
Substantially larger crews don't help. A Virginia-class has a crew of 580 vs. about 330 for a Tico.

I bet the Navy timed the retirement of their CGNs to coincide with having 1 less refuelling to do.

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Re: Naval Pictures VIII: From Japan with love
« Reply #358 on: 02 December 2020, 19:24:50 »
Substantially larger crews don't help. A Virginia-class has a crew of 580 vs. about 330 for a Tico.

I bet the Navy timed the retirement of their CGNs to coincide with having 1 less refuelling to do.
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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Naval Pictures VIII: From Japan with love
« Reply #359 on: 02 December 2020, 19:30:34 »
As far as decommissioning goes, most of those nuclear surface combatants were taken out of service in the early 1990s.  Between the cost of their operation (the aforementioned crewing and refueling), the end of the cold war, and the great majority of the Soviet fleet being put up on blocks (literally) it just wasn't worth keeping them in the water.