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Author Topic: Naval wargames?  (Read 988 times)

Elmoth

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Naval wargames?
« on: 13 August 2022, 10:50:24 »
Hello all,

I know there are a number of navy people around so, question for naval wargame players.

What rulebooks do you use? Both for napoleonic and 1900-1920 peirods. WW2, with the emergence of the airplane is less interesting to me, but I am keen on the former periods. Thanks! As further info i tend to favor flotilla actions and more on the tactical than micromanagement part of ship combat.

.... And the forum does not allow me to out a picture of my failed attempt to reproduce Coronel 1914 (plus canopus) using 1/6000 ships.
« Last Edit: 13 August 2022, 10:54:56 by Elmoth »

idea weenie

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Re: Naval wargames?
« Reply #1 on: 15 August 2022, 03:14:08 »
.... And the forum does not allow me to out a picture of my failed attempt to reproduce Coronel 1914 (plus canopus) using 1/6000 ships.

The forum may not, but other image-sharing sites can do so, and you can link to those sites.

One decent place is called Imgur.

Simon Landmine

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Re: Naval wargames?
« Reply #2 on: 15 August 2022, 12:29:08 »
Yeah - images need to be hosted elsewhere, and then linked from here. Old-style web ... :-)

(I last played (wet) navy wargaming almost thirty-five years ago ... it was a WWII ruleset, but I can't recall the name now. Mostly, it consisted of teenage me watching my ships 'sink' at varying rates ...)
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Daryk

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Re: Naval wargames?
« Reply #3 on: 15 August 2022, 12:31:26 »
I gave Harpoon a shot in college.  I couldn't convince my BT friends to try it a second time.

I am Belch II

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Re: Naval wargames?
« Reply #4 on: 15 August 2022, 18:46:21 »
Harpoon is a great game, but really rules heavy.
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Failure16

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Re: Naval wargames?
« Reply #5 on: 15 August 2022, 18:54:15 »
Fire When Ready by David Manley is a good Dreadnaught-era game:

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/57246/Fire-When-Ready

Search around for his name on the site and you will see other titles that are for all eras from Salamis to the Napoleonic Wars. He makes good rule-sets.

I personally like Decision Games Coronel and the Falkland Islands for a quick, easy game that is light on the "ship captain aspect" and more towards the flotilla-commander level. See: https://shop.decisiongames.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=1640
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth, 
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CVB

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Re: Naval wargames?
« Reply #6 on: 16 August 2022, 04:38:19 »
To get an overview of relevant games, many with comments or reviews, you could visit boardgamegeek.com and search for keywords like sail, ship of the line or (pre-)dreadnought.
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Elmoth

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Re: Naval wargames?
« Reply #7 on: 16 August 2022, 16:31:13 »
Great suggestions. will be checking the Fire When Ready and Coronel and the Falkland Islands (Decision Games) for sure.

Ok, went to imgur. No idea on how to make them smaller :(


Battle of coronel. Playtest 1

Repeat of the historical event. Only Monmouh and otranto survived due to their internment in Coronel. despite this final result, the rulebook proved to be lacking in a lot of areas and only luck made the end result historical.

Battle of Coronel. Playtest 3

Much better by this stage.
After his failed exercise, Cradock decided to take a more aggressive stance. However, the good shooting by the Scharnhorst and Gneissenau sunk the Glasgow early on the engagement with a lucky hit that detonated its ammo in the forward turret. After that the english cruisers tried to close the range and engage with the german cruisers, but they ignored the german light cruisers at their own peril., that crossed their T and proceeded to pummel them to the bottom of the sea with a sustained fusillade of their 4" guns. Canopus, the added ship to the fleet could only be a silent watcher of the tragedy desipute scoring some lucky early hits in the german flagship as the battle started.



« Last Edit: 19 August 2022, 09:30:25 by Elmoth »

Bedwyr

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Re: Naval wargames?
« Reply #8 on: 18 August 2022, 14:27:14 »
Could you drop the resolution of those or at least use attachments instead of in-line? From recollection, Imgur's large thumbnails were pretty SMF friendly.

On my end I still have a) an unopened Black Seas: Master and Commander kit and b) a small tub full of Pirates constructible card game (through the Revolution! expansion pack). I don't recall what general scales those were, though.
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Re: Naval wargames?
« Reply #9 on: 18 August 2022, 14:35:33 »
Oooo, Pirates.

Not historically accurate, or technologically accurate, or laws of physics accurate, or anything accurate, but loads of fun and a great excuse to sit around a table saying 'Arr' at each other. :thumbsup:
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Bedwyr

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Re: Naval wargames?
« Reply #10 on: 18 August 2022, 14:39:08 »
Oooo, Pirates.

Not historically accurate, or technologically accurate, or laws of physics accurate, or anything accurate, but loads of fun and a great excuse to sit around a table saying 'Arr' at each other. :thumbsup:

I figured they looked good enough that you could use them kind of to scale with another system. Black Seas already has its own scale though I forget which. I just wanted a selection of good looking tallship models.
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Elmoth

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Re: Naval wargames?
« Reply #11 on: 19 August 2022, 09:31:28 »
Could you drop the resolution of those or at least use attachments instead of in-line? From recollection, Imgur's large thumbnails were pretty SMF friendly.

learned to resize looking at other threads with image sin the forum. :) Corrected my crappy pictures for you

Daryk

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Re: Naval wargames?
« Reply #12 on: 19 August 2022, 09:49:23 »
And it's not just Weirdo who thanks you!  :thumbsup:

ckosacranoid

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Re: Naval wargames?
« Reply #13 on: 25 August 2022, 22:44:01 »
A couple of good games to think about.

Naval thunder is a turn of the century to WWII games that is very quick to learn and play. Uses the same rules from 1/1200 to 1/6000.

Smoke on the water is good for us civil war era and has rules for making your own ships. It uses 1/600 in the book, but you could do a smaller size if you wanted. As for finding the rules, you would have to do some digging for a copy. I know they on the web, just forgot where I found my free copies of them years ago.

anarchy

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Re: Naval wargames?
« Reply #14 on: 26 August 2022, 07:16:23 »
 Cruel Seas is quite fun. Unusual scale and combatants for a naval game. Base game is WW2 German v. British torpedo boats in the English Channel.

Weirdo

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Re: Naval wargames?
« Reply #15 on: 26 August 2022, 08:30:30 »
Had anyone tried Grand Fleets and is able to give an opinion on it?

http://www.mj12games.com/grandfleets/
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
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Re: Naval wargames?
« Reply #16 on: 26 August 2022, 08:33:52 »
I just wanted a selection of good looking tallship models.

If you don't mind papercraft, War Artisan has an excellent line of ships and a wide selection.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

I am Belch II

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Re: Naval wargames?
« Reply #17 on: 26 August 2022, 14:06:05 »
If your into smaller scales for Tallships and age of scale Hallmark has some pretty good is 1/2400 scale ships. So you can get a large fleet for a smaller price. I think ships go for at the most $8 per ship.
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Lone-Wolf

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Re: Naval wargames?
« Reply #18 on: 27 August 2022, 09:08:53 »
I played Battlewagon from Task Force Games, Harpoon, Man O`War.

In Battlewagon I played the Battle of River Plate and instead of running I engaged all three british ships and even though the Graf Spee was medium to badly damaged I always sunk the british ships.

Harpoon: Ok, mathematics central. I read the rules and sorry, unless someone experienced plays it with me, I abstain.

Man O`War: Fun, but where do I find players? And as the miniatures are hard to find (understatement and I hate assembling and painting miniatures, I use paper counters I once found in a now-defunct yahoo-groups. But the "real" players then dont want to play with you.)

Wooden Ships & Iron Men: unfortunately never played.

Sky Galleons of Mars: Ok its about flying ships but the expanded rules allow you to play water ships but I never played them.

Car Wars: Only played the CAR part, never the other possibilities.

Run out the Guns (more RPG): never played but the results of drinking etc can be fun...

(before anybody asks: Yes, I own all these games. What can I say? I am a collector...)

Failure16

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Re: Naval wargames?
« Reply #19 on: 27 August 2022, 09:51:13 »
Elmoth, love that game. Wish I had been there. My play-throughs of DG's Coronel seem to end up close to historical norms. But I'm also playing solo, so maybe I have subliminal underpinnings to how the action flows...

Looking at getting basic "close-enough" models from, say Historical Board Gaming, on the cheap to bring the game to a bit more life.

And I've been looking at Naval Thunder's line for a long time, so that is a good inclusion, ckosacranoid. A game that can support WWI and WWII/Pacific is a good thing.
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth, 
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.
When I needed something good.                                            One day we'll reveal the truth,
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.        That one will die before he gets there.

But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra
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Mecha82

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Re: Naval wargames?
« Reply #20 on: 27 August 2022, 10:07:01 »
There is is Black Seas by Warlord games if you like era of wooden ships and Fireforge has Battlefleet WWII if you are more into WWII fleet action.
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Elmoth

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Re: Naval wargames?
« Reply #21 on: 27 August 2022, 10:39:55 »
I will look into all the suggestions. Some of those are waaaay more complex than i am.lookong for though. My problem is that i want to direct flotillas and fleet actions, not ship actions. And most wargames centre in being the captain of several ships, not a force commander. I eill keep looking and developing my own crappy wargame in the meantime.

The final similation (#6) of coronel ended up with a quasi-historical result. The germans lost a.light cruiser and the germans obliterated the german battleline, with only a damaged Monmouth survoving because she hid in the.middle of the burning hulls of Canopus and Good Hope.

Today i tested the battlecruiser action of Jutland. Kinda. High command (read: my 4 year old) decided that it was a simulation and ships needed to move in... Alternative ways and dice were actual hogh calibre shells to throw at the ships. The fleets fled to port VERY fast.

Failure16

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Re: Naval wargames?
« Reply #22 on: 27 August 2022, 10:54:33 »
Right? So, was there something wrong with the bloody ships, today?  ;D

Naval Thunder is probably further down the rabbit hole than I really want to go, either. I will not say that DG's Coronel is the best game out there, because I lack the breadth of experience compared to, say, tactical ground combat, but it gets the point across, with little record keeping and no need to expansive data-cards.

Since naval wargaming is a "flavor of the moment" thing for me, I want something that is quick to pull out, set-up, get to gaming, and then move on to the rest of life. And since I do not need more competition for the hobbyist (miniature) side, I like the fact I can get a handful of ships (one day) and have enough for a game.

If you ever get it, I'd love to talk about house-ruling/expansions for other ships or even things as esoteric as MTB flotillas, etc.

And don't forget that DG also offers River Plate & Denmark Strait. Haven't played that as much as Coronel, though. Wish they would look into some early WWII Pacific actions. Guadalcanal or Surigao Strait, for instance, would neatly side-step the need for including aircraft strikes.
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth, 
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.
When I needed something good.                                            One day we'll reveal the truth,
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.        That one will die before he gets there.

But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra
--A. Duritz

Failure16

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Re: Naval wargames?
« Reply #23 on: 27 August 2022, 11:05:38 »
And, if you want to take a gander at the basic ruleset, DG provides it for free. It would allow you to get a feel for the level and focus, at least:

http://decisiongames.com/wpsite/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/2018-T_DreadntBatWagonStndRules_V5F-ERULES.pdf
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth, 
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.
When I needed something good.                                            One day we'll reveal the truth,
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.        That one will die before he gets there.

But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra
--A. Duritz

Daryk

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Re: Naval wargames?
« Reply #24 on: 27 August 2022, 11:06:21 »
I would equate Harpoon to Advanced Squad Leader, personally.  The level of detail is up there for both of them.  Tactical is the word I'd use for both.  A "unit" being able to destroy another "unit" at least one order of magnitude more costly doesn't make the engagement any less tactical.  Stakes are more important than throw weight.  See Lawrence of Arabia (Seven Pillars of Wisdom for you pedants out there) for one example...  ^-^

Failure16

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Re: Naval wargames?
« Reply #25 on: 27 August 2022, 11:16:13 »
I conned a Pegasus PHM once upon a time as a kid in Harpoon. I know you have your issues with that class, Daryk, but I had fun!

And yes, Harpoon is Solaris VII Dueling Rules to DG's Dreadnaughts and Battlewagons Folio Game base-system compared to BattleTech's BattleForce 1. Hard to compare the two directly as their only real similarity is the fact they occur on water.
« Last Edit: 27 August 2022, 12:06:20 by Failure16 »
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth, 
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.
When I needed something good.                                            One day we'll reveal the truth,
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.        That one will die before he gets there.

But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra
--A. Duritz

Daryk

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Re: Naval wargames?
« Reply #26 on: 27 August 2022, 11:42:08 »
My main issue with the Pegasus is that they were gone before I was commissioned...  ^-^

Failure16

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Re: Naval wargames?
« Reply #27 on: 27 August 2022, 12:00:55 »
I thought you told me their hulls were naff? Or at least underbuilt for what was needed. I know they didn't last long in service...

I remember a fun computer game centered on them, though. I'm talking C128 days.

EDIT:

Yeah, boy!

« Last Edit: 27 August 2022, 12:05:06 by Failure16 »
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth, 
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.
When I needed something good.                                            One day we'll reveal the truth,
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.        That one will die before he gets there.

But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra
--A. Duritz

Daryk

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Re: Naval wargames?
« Reply #28 on: 27 August 2022, 12:34:07 »
I don't think that was me, but I can't disagree with the assertion...  :)

Failure16

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Re: Naval wargames?
« Reply #29 on: 27 August 2022, 12:54:20 »
Preposterous. I only hang out with so many serving naval officers.

In any event, the discussion was many years passed. Many years.

Of course, a discussion of combat hydrofoils is a bit past Elmoth's stated timeframe...

More to the point, if a game--such as the aforementioned DG D&B system--tracks capital ships with single-value system-values (e.g. hull-strength, firepower, etc.) should escorts (e.g. destroyers) be tracked by flotilla or individually? Things like MTBs or PTs would, of course, be tracked as flotillas or groups, I would say, and are not part of this particular equation.

Just a general thought, not tied to any specific system or even near-future project.
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth, 
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.
When I needed something good.                                            One day we'll reveal the truth,
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.        That one will die before he gets there.

But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra
--A. Duritz