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Author Topic: Renegade Legion: Reawakened  (Read 8931 times)

Failure16

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Re: Renegade Legion: Reawakened
« Reply #90 on: 17 August 2022, 20:25:23 »
It has plenty in common with original Renegade Legion.

You can say that. But I'd ask you prove such a bald assertion.

Feel free to quote whatever sources and page numbers you want to prove your point. I will have all the same resources on this end.
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth, 
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.
When I needed something good.                                            One day we'll reveal the truth,
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.        That one will die before he gets there.

But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra
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Bedwyr

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Re: Renegade Legion: Reawakened
« Reply #91 on: 17 August 2022, 20:52:19 »
Guys? Please dial down the tension before your dispute gets any more heated, thanks. /mod
« Last Edit: 17 August 2022, 20:55:25 by Bedwyr »
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Re: Renegade Legion: Reawakened
« Reply #92 on: 18 August 2022, 04:15:57 »
You can say that. But I'd ask you prove such a bald assertion.

Feel free to quote whatever sources and page numbers you want to prove your point. I will have all the same resources on this end.

We're looking at it from different angles.  I'm a lot more interested in tone, theme and feeling than a direct sequel or reuse of the exact same details. 

From that perspective, the TOG in New Renegade Legion is very similar to the old one.  Sure, they're not Roman, and they're not racist in the same way - but replacing everything that makes a planet's people them - their culture, language, names, even their architecture may as well be wiping them out and replacing them with Terrans.  The details are different, the core idea is the same.

Similarly the Centurion rules are far simpler than the original ones, but they're in the pursuit of the same goal - grav tanks slowly denuding each other's abilities until one side or the other is defeated.

If you're expecting a direct continuation of the old universe it's going to be disappointing, sure.  But like, that wasn't ever going to happen, even if Budgie Smuggler or someone else were able to get the rights to everything the odds of them bringing back the old rulesets was highly unlikely.  Note how hard it's been for nuFASA to get their redone Interceptor game crowdfunded.
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Garrand

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Re: Renegade Legion: Reawakened
« Reply #93 on: 18 August 2022, 08:56:01 »
From that perspective, the TOG in New Renegade Legion is very similar to the old one.  Sure, they're not Roman, and they're not racist in the same way - but replacing everything that makes a planet's people them - their culture, language, names, even their architecture may as well be wiping them out and replacing them with Terrans.  The details are different, the core idea is the same.

So wait... they got rid of the Space Romans? That makes me much more interested in the game now!

Damon.
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Re: Renegade Legion: Reawakened
« Reply #94 on: 18 August 2022, 09:07:10 »
Well, I was only there for the Space Romans. You win some, you lose some.

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Re: Renegade Legion: Reawakened
« Reply #95 on: 18 August 2022, 09:19:46 »
So wait... they got rid of the Space Romans? That makes me much more interested in the game now!

Damon.

There are only a couple of stories in the anthology with a focus on the TOG, and there's no mention of Roman trappings in any of them.
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Daemion

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Re: Renegade Legion: Reawakened
« Reply #96 on: 18 August 2022, 13:22:14 »
Well, here's the thing for me:
I'm way late to the original game, much like I was to all the things that helped define early BattleTech.  All I have is incomplete and second hand.

Since Renegade Legion is as 'popular' as it is I want to get to know all of the old stuff that made it what it is.  I don't strictly want new.  I don't want a reinterpretation.  It's like trying to find copies of the old BT books, like the Adventures of the Black Widows, Jumpships and Dropships, and much, much more for Vintage BattleTech.  I don't have it and the chances of my finding it are not that great, let alone affording it should I accidentally stumble across a piece somewhere.

The rules are one thing, although the system was popular enough that people came up with a render for BattleTech.

But, the lore behind it from all the games that were spawned for the franchise is something else.  I want to get to know that, being late to the game, before I begin to delve into what looks like Renegade Legion's own version of Dark Age.

This has also been my accusation to CatLabs about BattleTech.  You start us out post 3rd Succession War, and there are a lot of storied units with dedicated histories that I have no access to unless I go spelunking into the second-hand market. And, you're expecting new players to be able or want to do the same?

In both cases, I'd be okay with a mere history book leading up to the new now. Show me why the game is so iconic, what made it iconic, and why you're trying to bring it back in some fashion. Because I never tasted those memberberries. 
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Re: Renegade Legion: Reawakened
« Reply #97 on: 18 August 2022, 17:25:02 »
If you're expecting a direct continuation of the old universe it's going to be disappointing, sure.  But like, that wasn't ever going to happen, even if Budgie Smuggler or someone else were able to get the rights to everything the odds of them bringing back the old rulesets was highly unlikely.  Note how hard it's been for nuFASA to get their redone Interceptor game crowdfunded.
Wait there is a redone Interceptor game???   
Gods I miss that the old Renegade Legion Yahoo Groups is no more, I had never heard of it

And I will be honest I don't expect it to be the exact same game as before but I want to know that when I sit down to play at the table, that I will at least know "setting" and what going on.  For example when SJG took away the ability "from what I heard" to design your Car Wars cars for an edition, I was not interested in that edition and I had played for years and public at convention in Dover, NH way back in time when told SJ that his early GURPS Autoduel failed because of how hand weapons worked in the rules vrs GURPS as a whole already, I tried 4th D&D and walked away.

Battletech for me is what happens when the 1980 never advances techwise really.   If they rebooted Battletech and gave it the Shadowrun effect of tech not sure it be the samething.  Yep you can jack into your mech but...  can you image what deckers could do to them?
"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast, And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill, And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"

Failure16

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Re: Renegade Legion: Reawakened
« Reply #98 on: 18 August 2022, 19:01:29 »
We're looking at it from different angles.  I'm a lot more interested in tone, theme and feeling than a direct sequel or reuse of the exact same details. 

From that perspective, the TOG in New Renegade Legion is very similar to the old one.  Sure, they're not Roman, and they're not racist in the same way - but replacing everything that makes a planet's people them - their culture, language, names, even their architecture may as well be wiping them out and replacing them with Terrans.  The details are different, the core idea is the same.

Similarly the Centurion rules are far simpler than the original ones, but they're in the pursuit of the same goal - grav tanks slowly denuding each other's abilities until one side or the other is defeated.

If you're expecting a direct continuation of the old universe it's going to be disappointing, sure.  But like, that wasn't ever going to happen, even if Budgie Smuggler or someone else were able to get the rights to everything the odds of them bringing back the old rulesets was highly unlikely.  Note how hard it's been for nuFASA to get their redone Interceptor game crowdfunded.
BLUF: I respect the effort put forth by the developers and writers, but view the enterprise askance based on the inclusion of certain names/titles.
If you get rid of the core conceits and fundamental--foundational--aspects of a milieu, is it the same milieu? The use of a time-jump or the passage of time cannot be used as a defense in this case because this is a fictional universe with name recognition to this day, not a comparison of how different technology, language, and societal mores have changed from the Crusades to the era of the Global War on Terror.

So, the core idea is not the same, other than in the broadest strokes. There are historical parallels between the type of forced assimilation you describe, but I could play a game of To the Strongest to represent them and call it Renegade Legion, not so? You are right, it is not so. The core ethos behind the veil of the game on the table are the same, but nothing else is. And there is more than a core theme to a product, project, or construction.

The work in Voices of Varuna is good, of course, and there are some big names within their respective circles. As a product, everyone did a fine job and put their hard work in. But there are no stories that match the tone of any of the original prose by Rice or Kieth or the myriad sourcebook authors. The tone and themes present in all Renegade Legion fiction (stories, novels, and sourcebooks) dealt with the struggles of people in war as viewed from those firing lines and the rapaciousness of a universal empire compared to those standing against the tide. Those aspects are missing from Varuna, or at least parsed so thinly as to be unintelligible.

Of course, it was unlikely to get a RL: Centurion 3rd Edition which was really just a dusted-off 2nd Edition box with new art, components, and rulebook with maybe some updated rules. I would have loved exactly that, but that doesn't mean it would sell in 2022. We agree that time marches on (except for BattleTech and similar long-standing luminaries)

But you went from a game that had very strong parallels, applications, and lessons that could transfer dynamically to and from the real-world to one that is more akin to X-Wing. What we have now is a game, and that is all. It is all about power usage, movement templates, and card draws. That is not pejorative. But there is no comfort to a returning player because this game has nothing in common with its titular forebear. And a completely new or uninitiated player wouldn't care about the name regardless because they view anew with no filters or lenses.

So, not a bad game system or universe they are developing. But not Renegade Legion in either case. Therefore, the question still remains: why use the name(s) at all vice creating their own game about the galaxy-spanning Tellun Empire with its floating tanks and hardscrabble separatists?


P.S. Some rules for infantry and fire-support would have been a nice touch in the beta. Both are sorely lacking from the game and is just one more instance of a game with a familiar name and nothing else. Those were crucial aspects of how the original game operated and their omission is all the more glaring.
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth, 
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.
When I needed something good.                                            One day we'll reveal the truth,
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.        That one will die before he gets there.

But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra
--A. Duritz

Prospernia

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Re: Renegade Legion: Reawakened
« Reply #99 on: 18 August 2022, 23:25:25 »
I like the term, "Space-Romans", but, weren't they originally the Romulans?


Renegade-Legion is a solid-system and an awesome game!

Leviathan is a bit complex, but Interceptor and Centurion are great games.

Legionnaire needs some help. 

When I play Interceptor, I have a Star-Trek name generator and I use Romulan/Vulcan for Tog/RL and Federation for Commonwealth.  It works.

Lorcan Nagle

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Re: Renegade Legion: Reawakened
« Reply #100 on: 19 August 2022, 05:24:41 »
Wait there is a redone Interceptor game???   

Yeah, it's got a different rules system and a new setting called Aether Stream.  They did 2 kickstarter runs at it.  The first was in July 2021, looked for $30,000 and only got $14,695. The second ran in December of the same year, looked for $10,000 and took in $23,552
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Re: Renegade Legion: Reawakened
« Reply #101 on: 19 August 2022, 11:14:33 »
Yeah, it's got a different rules system and a new setting called Aether Stream.  They did 2 kickstarter runs at it.  The first was in July 2021, looked for $30,000 and only got $14,695. The second ran in December of the same year, looked for $10,000 and took in $23,552

I can see how that would be a struggle. The game does look a lot like RL Interceptor, but I imagine it was the setting more than the rules that drew people to that one. Without the name recognition of the original IP I can see how getting positive word of mouth for a revival of a very old-school type table top game would be an uphill battle.

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Re: Renegade Legion: Reawakened
« Reply #102 on: 19 August 2022, 12:34:21 »
So wait... they got rid of the Space Romans? That makes me much more interested in the game now!

Damon.

They got rid of the Space Romans!? Not interested at all then.
Star Wars ST and Star Trek current shows are crap.

DOC_Agren

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Re: Renegade Legion: Reawakened
« Reply #103 on: 19 August 2022, 12:45:36 »
I will ask, has anyone tried it? 
"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast, And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill, And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"

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Re: Renegade Legion: Reawakened
« Reply #104 on: 19 August 2022, 14:55:02 »
I will ask, has anyone tried it? 

I've read the Centurion rules and thought they looked interesting, but haven't had a chance to print stuff out and give it a shot.
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Failure16

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Re: Renegade Legion: Reawakened
« Reply #105 on: 19 August 2022, 18:14:45 »
Here is the best source of info on FASA Games Interceptor II:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/fasagames/interceptor-ii

Concluded, so it should be linkable...

Not too sure about it, but if I had known when it was going on, I might have pledged for it. Not really digging the fighters' aesthetic all that much, but it was hard to top some of the RenLeg designs. I think I'll stick with Squadron Commander by Brigade Models (https://www.brigademodels.co.uk/Gaming/SCR/index.html). It gets the job done, and it's a great company to deal/do business with.


I have played three BSG Centurion games solo. I have only played X-Wing once, but I got that kind of vibe. It is not a bad system, per se, but it certainly does not scratch the RL itch, so I just went back to my own system and some Dirtside II. I found it to be more of a game, and not something I could try to apply real-world tactics to like Centurion 2nd Edition. Too much trying to play the system and hope for the right damage card, etc.

If you have any specific questions, feel free to ask. I'm not an expert, but I have tooled around with the system a tad.

Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth, 
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.
When I needed something good.                                            One day we'll reveal the truth,
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.        That one will die before he gets there.

But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra
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victor_shaw

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Re: Renegade Legion: Reawakened
« Reply #106 on: 24 August 2022, 12:17:22 »
The major thing that soured me on this game was the companies inability to address the fact that it was "Renegade Legion" in name only and them trying to use name recognition to sell Kickstarter pledges without bringing up that it was an entirely new setting.
To this day you can't get anyone involved to admit its not old school "Renegade Legion".
I mean, look at the opening post for this thread "Budgie Smuggler Games reawaken the Renegade Legion universe".
Nothing in this stated that its in name only.
No, it just tries to snag you with "reawaken the Renegade Legion universe".
I really don't like shady advertising that hinges on name recognition.

victor_shaw

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Re: Renegade Legion: Reawakened
« Reply #107 on: 24 August 2022, 12:37:18 »
On that note.
I'm starting to think something legal happened to Budgie Smuggler Games.
As they seen to have nothing about Centurion on their main website anymore and their Patron seems to be stuck at 15 members.
I'm starting to think they got hit with a Topps C&D order.
They now seem to be mostly pushing the Xenovita RPG and using the name Renegade Legion sparingly. 
« Last Edit: 24 August 2022, 12:54:52 by victor_shaw »

Failure16

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Re: Renegade Legion: Reawakened
« Reply #108 on: 24 August 2022, 17:44:00 »
So it would appear.

Eh, without the ability to TC a Bata Revo/Wolverine across the plains of some alien world, I guess I don't see the point.

Still, I did make some conversions to die rolls IOT avoid the card-draw mechanic (for a variety of reasons, but, ultimately, I wasn't cutting up the book I paid for, and in any event, printer ink isn't cheap). I still think there are better microarmor games out there but that isn't a hit on this game.
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth, 
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.
When I needed something good.                                            One day we'll reveal the truth,
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.        That one will die before he gets there.

But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra
--A. Duritz

DOC_Agren

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Re: Renegade Legion: Reawakened
« Reply #109 on: 24 August 2022, 20:02:36 »
I had hopes that someone had final figured out the twisted ownership of Renegade Legion IP. 
"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast, And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill, And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"

Failure16

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Re: Renegade Legion: Reawakened
« Reply #110 on: 24 August 2022, 20:55:53 »
I won't go so far to say that it's a Gordian knot, but whatever it is, I do not personally believe BSG has solved it.

Here would be a great place to shine some light on the subject. You know, since they started this thread to begin with.
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth, 
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.
When I needed something good.                                            One day we'll reveal the truth,
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.        That one will die before he gets there.

But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra
--A. Duritz

victor_shaw

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Re: Renegade Legion: Reawakened
« Reply #111 on: 24 August 2022, 21:14:53 »
I had hopes that someone had final figured out the twisted ownership of Renegade Legion IP.

It's not really even a Windsor.
Topps owns the IP,  it's  in a IP package of old FASA IPs according to the research one of the forum posters did.
The thread consensus was that it was to many competing IPs  for CGL to run and there was to little interest to make it lucrative to sell or license the IP out.

Failure16

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Re: Renegade Legion: Reawakened
« Reply #112 on: 24 August 2022, 21:33:35 »
That research--on this forum only--was done by me. The individual who did the actual research released it on another board, but it can be viewed here:

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=230068&page=1

Sixth post from the bottom of the page.
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth, 
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.
When I needed something good.                                            One day we'll reveal the truth,
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.        That one will die before he gets there.

But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra
--A. Duritz

Failure16

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Re: Renegade Legion: Reawakened
« Reply #113 on: 24 August 2022, 21:43:14 »
Then, a few years later it was found to have transferred to NECA Online (8th post from top of second page of link), or at least it was in that process in 2016. One of our own, BadSyntax, found that out.
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth, 
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.
When I needed something good.                                            One day we'll reveal the truth,
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.        That one will die before he gets there.

But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra
--A. Duritz

victor_shaw

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Re: Renegade Legion: Reawakened
« Reply #114 on: 25 August 2022, 01:02:38 »
That research--on this forum only--was done by me. The individual who did the actual research released it on another board, but it can be viewed here:

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=230068&page=1

Sixth post from the bottom of the page.

Didn't want to name drop be cause I wasn't sure.  :thumbsup:
Funny thing was there seemed to be so little interest that NECA didn't even know that Topps had dropped the ball and never finished the transfer.  ::)

DOC_Agren

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Re: Renegade Legion: Reawakened
« Reply #115 on: 25 August 2022, 04:50:19 »
Well that better then what I remember from the old yahoo group, at least in theory someone ran down the ownership to NECA, in theory...



"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast, And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill, And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"

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Re: Renegade Legion: Reawakened
« Reply #116 on: 25 August 2022, 15:01:11 »
Well, I was only there for the Space Romans. You win some, you lose some.

The TOG military still uses a lot of the old Roman terminology in its composition.
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Failure16

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Re: Renegade Legion: Reawakened
« Reply #117 on: 27 August 2022, 09:45:00 »
Where, pray tell?

I only have access to Voices of Varuna and the Centurion-Beta, and nothing of that nature is present there. It is possible that I missed a relatively isolated reference somewhere. As I have stated earlier, the short stories in the former didn't grab me personally--though they are uniformly fine pieces of fiction--and the Beta certainly does not contain much if any lore or background data beyond what is absolutely necessary to impart game terms and statistics.

Of course, one could say the same about the Marian Hegemony, not so?

In a related vein, it is just as easy to say that BattleTech contains more direct allusion to Renegade Legion's various rules. Destiny's abstracted vehicular combat system is almost a direct port from that seen in Legionnaire, and much of BattleTech's space combat games from BattleSpace through at least AT2 were more related to Leviathan, say, than not.

Phalanx was ultimately vaporware, so we will never know if it was to have been a rejuvenated BattleTroops. B jut it would have been nice to see.  And the miniatures it could have spawned... :'(
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth, 
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.
When I needed something good.                                            One day we'll reveal the truth,
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.        That one will die before he gets there.

But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra
--A. Duritz

 

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