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Author Topic: So where does your State stand vrs D&D?  (Read 2962 times)

Ruger

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Re: So where does your State stand vrs D&D?
« Reply #30 on: 05 December 2021, 22:25:42 »
Subclasses aren't exactly the same thing.  For one thing, you're required to take a subclass when you hit a specific level of your class.  They always augment your class features, they never override or remove any.  And they're all class-specific: you have to be a wizard to be a bladesinger, whereas in 3rd Edition you could take a prestige class regardless of your class/multiclass combos so long as you met the prerequisites.  So you could be a bladesinger if you were a wizard, a sorcerer, or even a bard with enough levels.

And it also comes much earlier than you could qualify for the prestige class, especially from back in the old 3rd edition days. Now, it’s more akin to the kits of the 2nd edition.

It also makes it much easier to create certain character ideas; or at least so far for me.

Ruger
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monbvol

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Re: So where does your State stand vrs D&D?
« Reply #31 on: 05 December 2021, 22:39:25 »
*nod*

There are still some things I think could be better explained and expanded on as well as a few things in the DMG adjusted to make it less work on the DM to actually put together a campaign before it'll displace Pathfinder 1E as my tactical fantasy wargame with role playing bolted on of choice but it's still a really close second.

Hellraiser

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Re: So where does your State stand vrs D&D?
« Reply #32 on: 05 December 2021, 23:58:55 »
I was talking to a Mormon missionary down here in Ecuador, & he said after their preparatory classes in Utah they all played D&D, so maybe that's where the extra numbers are from...  :D

Damon.

Your not kidding, a friend from work who is LDS said her grown 20 something kids all play it every weekend on "game night"
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Hellraiser

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Re: So where does your State stand vrs D&D?
« Reply #33 on: 06 December 2021, 00:01:47 »
There are still some things I think could be better explained and expanded on as well as a few things in the DMG adjusted to make it less work on the DM to actually put together a campaign before it'll displace Pathfinder 1E as my tactical fantasy wargame with role playing bolted on of choice but it's still a really close second.

I've played every version but 4th.   3/3.5 is still my favorite.   But my short time in 5th a couple years ago was interesting.
I'm not a fan of constantly changing editions & rules & restarting characters but the game itself wasn't half bad at all.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

XenopusTex

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Re: So where does your State stand vrs D&D?
« Reply #34 on: 06 December 2021, 00:31:31 »
Tied for 14th place.

ND = winter (been known to not get above -20F for days at a time in my corner of the state, Grand Forks is worse).  SD = worse winter (Aberdeen... low, cold, flat plain... etc.)  As they say in Minot, ND... -40F keeps the riff-raff out. 

I can't fathom that much D&D in WY... huge state with next to nobody there.  Must be clustered at the universities.  And, WY winters = ugh (friend sometimes has to work in Casper, and blizzards are a real thing down there).

Kentares

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Re: So where does your State stand vrs D&D?
« Reply #35 on: 07 December 2021, 18:55:51 »
Subclasses aren't exactly the same thing.  For one thing, you're required to take a subclass when you hit a specific level of your class.  They always augment your class features, they never override or remove any.  And they're all class-specific: you have to be a wizard to be a bladesinger, whereas in 3rd Edition you could take a prestige class regardless of your class/multiclass combos so long as you met the prerequisites.  So you could be a bladesinger if you were a wizard, a sorcerer, or even a bard with enough levels.

And it also comes much earlier than you could qualify for the prestige class, especially from back in the old 3rd edition days. Now, it’s more akin to the kits of the 2nd edition.

It also makes it much easier to create certain character ideas; or at least so far for me.

Ruger

Because of all that I dont like subclasses and all that nonsense. Prestige classes were more elegant and interesting in working to get them. Now is just get a few levels and done. Reminds me of a toon upgrade in a platform computer game. Not interesting IMO.

An example of requirements of a Prestige Class I played in a campaign in the 3rd edition:

"To become an assassin, the character must be of an evil alignment. He must also be skilled at disguising himself, moving silently and hiding from his targets. The final step is to prove his worth by hunting down and killing a target in cold blood, for no other reason than to prove his worthiness of the title."
« Last Edit: 07 December 2021, 19:02:33 by Kentares »
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: So where does your State stand vrs D&D?
« Reply #36 on: 07 December 2021, 20:23:33 »
Most prestige classes were garbage that existed just to pad out splatbooks- either they were wildly underpowered or they had ridiculous prerequisites.  And others went the opposite direction and were so OP that there was no reason not to take them.  And that's not even getting into the ludicrous synergies that existed because WotC never considered previously-published content when writing new books.
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Ruger

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Re: So where does your State stand vrs D&D?
« Reply #37 on: 08 December 2021, 08:02:44 »
Most prestige classes were garbage that existed just to pad out splatbooks- either they were wildly underpowered or they had ridiculous prerequisites.  And others went the opposite direction and were so OP that there was no reason not to take them.  And that's not even getting into the ludicrous synergies that existed because WotC never considered previously-published content when writing new books.

I always liked the possibilities of a high level character that combined wizard and sorcerer base classes with the Incantrix and Ultimate Magus prestige classes. The Ultimate Magus allowed you to progress your Spellcasting in both classes, while the Incantrix added a lot of good metamagic possibilities. Delayed getting really powerful stuff, but what you could do with all the lower level stuff.

Ruger
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Kentares

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Re: So where does your State stand vrs D&D?
« Reply #38 on: 08 December 2021, 21:01:18 »
Most prestige classes were garbage that existed just to pad out splatbooks- either they were wildly underpowered or they had ridiculous prerequisites.  And others went the opposite direction and were so OP that there was no reason not to take them.  And that's not even getting into the ludicrous synergies that existed because WotC never considered previously-published content when writing new books.

That's a lie in about 90% of the prestige's classes but you want (to focus on only 10%) to make a point fine. Whatever.

Edit = And to add insult to injury what you have now are faster/easier ways to get "subclasses" which are even more OP since theyre easier to get. But those are fine I guess...   :toofunny: :clap:
« Last Edit: 08 December 2021, 21:10:12 by Kentares »
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: So where does your State stand vrs D&D?
« Reply #39 on: 08 December 2021, 23:45:38 »
Subclasses are not "OP" due to being easier to get.  There are some that are unbalanced- Hexblade, for example, but WotC flat out said that they never took anything outside the PHB into account when designing prestige classes so there were ludicrously powerful mix-and-match combos that were easy to do.  With subclasses you take one and that's all you get for that class.  You can't start a wizard out as an Abjurer then decide you'd like to mix some Blade Dancer or War Mage in with it for extra synergies.  And by about 2005 they'd stopped playtesting stuff before publication, except for Dragon Magazine content, which was pretty much never playtested whether Wizards or Paizo was the publisher.
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Kentares

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Re: So where does your State stand vrs D&D?
« Reply #40 on: 10 December 2021, 16:21:53 »
Seems were on different frequencies (as we say around here).

Subclasses are not "OP" due to being easier to get.

Are you sure? If the rest of the game is scaled accounting that it can be fine but you're missing my main point (not sure if its intentional or not). Roleplay (which - I heard - is the main point of D&D) is nonexistent to get those "subclasses".

Which is more interesting for a RPG POV?

3rd edition assassin requirements:

"To become an assassin, the character must be of an evil alignment. He must also be skilled at disguising himself, moving silently and hiding from his targets. The final step is to prove his worth by hunting down and killing a target in cold blood, for no other reason than to prove his worthiness of the title."

5th edition assassin requirements:

Choose this subclass at 3rd rogue level.

Im talking about assassin here because its a class I know very well. I played one in 3rd (for almost two years) and Im going to get one as a DM in 5th (if all goes well) but from what I read about some 5th subclasses the same applies.

With subclasses you take one and that's all you get for that class.  You can't start a wizard out as an Abjurer then decide you'd like to mix some Blade Dancer or War Mage in with it for extra synergies.

You know a character can multiclass right? If you think that is enough to stop OP characters in 5th then you're wrong (see Critical Role for example - ignore two characters that have house rules applied and see the others in either campaign 2 or 3 - never saw the first one).

In the 3rd edition the mix and match you mention (that made OP characters) were rare. The levels were spent in building the character for the (usually) HIGH requirements of a Prestige Class (which goes back to my second point that 5th edition characters can also be OP and without any kind of roleplay or effort - just pick and go).
« Last Edit: 10 December 2021, 16:33:32 by Kentares »
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: So where does your State stand vrs D&D?
« Reply #41 on: 10 December 2021, 22:16:34 »
Seems were on different frequencies (as we say around here).

Are you sure? If the rest of the game is scaled accounting that it can be fine but you're missing my main point (not sure if its intentional or not). Roleplay (which - I heard - is the main point of D&D) is nonexistent to get those "subclasses".

Which is more interesting for a RPG POV?


Neither have any actual effect on roleplaying.  Stabbing some unnamed level one NPC to qualify for a prestige class isn't
exciting roleplay: if you're going to roleplay you shouldn't need mechanical rules to force you to act in a specific way.

Quote
You know a character can multiclass right? If you think that is enough to stop OP characters in 5th then you're wrong (see Critical Role for example - ignore two characters that have house rules applied and see the others in either campaign 2 or 3 - never saw the first one).

In the 3rd edition the mix and match you mention (that made OP characters) were rare. The levels were spent in building the character for the (usually) HIGH requirements of a Prestige Class (which goes back to my second point that 5th edition characters can also be OP and without any kind of roleplay or effort - just pick and go).

Sure, there are a few OP combinations in 5E: the sorcerer/paladin, sorcerer/warlock (though Sage Advice states that Pact Spell slots can't be burned for spell points, which is also the way most GMs I know do it), and any charisma-based class and Hexblade.  But there are limits to what yo can do that 3E never had.  In 3E, attack bonuses, save bonuses, and skill points all stacked across all your classes.  If you weren't playing a druid, which was a ridiculously OP class by itself, or a cleric or a wizard, you were encouraged to seek out as much optimization as you could because otherwise you risked becoming increasingly useless.  Martial classes especially ceased to really be viable by about the time you hit 8th level thanks to the power discrepancy between hitting something with a sword every round as your only trick vs the sheer versatility of spellcasting options.  If you don't think this was happening in 3E, you must have been playing with an extremely insular group because it was everywhere.
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garhkal

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Re: So where does your State stand vrs D&D?
« Reply #42 on: 11 December 2021, 01:31:43 »
I've played every version but 4th.   3/3.5 is still my favorite.   But my short time in 5th a couple years ago was interesting.
I'm not a fan of constantly changing editions & rules & restarting characters but the game itself wasn't half bad at all.

I've stuck with 2e ADND for decades.  See no reason to change now.
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Hellraiser

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Re: So where does your State stand vrs D&D?
« Reply #43 on: 11 December 2021, 15:04:49 »
I've stuck with 2e ADND for decades.  See no reason to change now.

I really liked how 2nd sort of streamlined the 1E rules to make them work around all the classes, if that makes sense.
But in turn that took away a lot of the really unique things about some of the classes, Bard, Monk, Cavalier, Ranger.

3rd was really interesting to me in the form of how you could "multiclass" v/s the way Multi-Dual classing worked in 1E/2E.
Elminster was the perfect example of that, 2 Rogue Levels & a Fighter level for his childhood in the streets.
3 Cleric Levels as he learned about Mystra & became her servant, then finally 24 Wizard + 5 Archmage levels being the uber wizard we know.

Prestige classes then added a lot of flavor onto that as well.

Had no interest in 4th & did a couple months playing 5th & it wasn't bad but I would still go back to 1st/3rd if given the choice.

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Daryk

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Re: So where does your State stand vrs D&D?
« Reply #44 on: 11 December 2021, 15:37:29 »
I'm in a PF2e game (play by post) now, and still haven't warmed up to the system.  They really messed with the action economy.  I played 5e for a while, and never really warmed up to it either.  The less said about 4e, the better.  PF1e remains my system of preference, being essentially 3.75e, but I wouldn't turn down a 3.5 game if given the chance.

Garrand

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Re: So where does your State stand vrs D&D?
« Reply #45 on: 11 December 2021, 16:08:01 »
It's been a lo-ong time since I played 3e, but I recall the DM complaining about the prep workload when running the game. 3e was awesome in ways I cannot express, in allowing you to play exactly the character you want. They tried this with 2e kits, but they never had the same impact as 3e multi-classiing & presige class rules, the real power behind building interesting & unique characters.

We've been playing 5e now since nearly its launch. It is less flexible in building the character YOU want, but I feel like the DM workload is less, making everyone more or less happy.

I wouldn't mind going back to 3.5e as a PLAYER (well, except I sold all my books...), but not so sure as for running a game. I would be happy running a 5e game though...

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monbvol

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Re: So where does your State stand vrs D&D?
« Reply #46 on: 11 December 2021, 18:39:57 »
It's been a lo-ong time since I played 3e, but I recall the DM complaining about the prep workload when running the game. 3e was awesome in ways I cannot express, in allowing you to play exactly the character you want. They tried this with 2e kits, but they never had the same impact as 3e multi-classiing & presige class rules, the real power behind building interesting & unique characters.

We've been playing 5e now since nearly its launch. It is less flexible in building the character YOU want, but I feel like the DM workload is less, making everyone more or less happy.

I wouldn't mind going back to 3.5e as a PLAYER (well, except I sold all my books...), but not so sure as for running a game. I would be happy running a 5e game though...

Damon.

Which is odd because I am finding the workload to setup a 5e campaign much greater as a DM but character creation much easier compared to Pathfinder 1e.

Note I'm saying easy to create a character, not flexible.  I make that distinction because I tend to agree that the character creation of 5e is a little cookie cutter and thus it is tough to get the character you really want or make them really distinct.

Daryk

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Re: So where does your State stand vrs D&D?
« Reply #47 on: 11 December 2021, 18:43:59 »
I think that captures the trade off perfectly, Monbvol.  More flexibility for the players really does mean more work for the DM.  There really isn't one right answer...

monbvol

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Re: So where does your State stand vrs D&D?
« Reply #48 on: 11 December 2021, 18:56:49 »
I think you misunderstood there Daryk.

Pathfinder 1e I can much more readily assemble a homebrew campaign for very easily as a DM and can handle the more flexible character creation more readily but setting up a character is a little bit more of a chore as a player.

5e if I want to homebrew a campaign I have to put a lot more work into it as a DM because I have to actually decide so many more things and if I don't it will cause problems.  Character creation is less of a chore as a player but it is harder to get what I want and really make it distinct.

That's my first hand experience with those systems so far anyway as both a player and DM.

Daryk

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Re: So where does your State stand vrs D&D?
« Reply #49 on: 11 December 2021, 19:11:11 »
I ran a PF1e game by PbP for a while.  Maybe I found the DM work less because it was a joy for me, despite being actively involved in character creation as well.  I've only played 4e, 5e, and PF2e.  Perhaps I just see character creation as the core of both DM and player work.

monbvol

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Re: So where does your State stand vrs D&D?
« Reply #50 on: 11 December 2021, 20:27:20 »
I'd say for me it's mostly only more of a chore to create a character in PF1e by a matter of comparison.

Ultimately though yeah there are things I like about each system.

PF2e though I doubt my group will ever give that a fair shake at this point.

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Re: So where does your State stand vrs D&D?
« Reply #51 on: 12 December 2021, 19:12:23 »
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Hellraiser

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Re: So where does your State stand vrs D&D?
« Reply #52 on: 13 December 2021, 11:25:59 »
Pathfinder 1e I can much more readily assemble a homebrew campaign for very easily as a DM

5e if I want to homebrew a campaign I have to put a lot more work into it as a DM because I have to actually decide so many more things and if I don't it will cause problems. 

I'm curious Monbvol, what sort of stuff is it that your having to decide between DD5E v/s PF1E ?

I'm not understanding where the "world building" part is any more/less difficult.

I do get what people are saying about 3E/3.5E/PF1E being more difficult to handle all the special different player options by having to know all options for all the different Multi-Class options & Skill Limits/Cross Class v/s Class per Level & having to know all the Prestige Classes, etc etc.
As a Player it's what made me love 3E+ but I can see why some GMs hated it.

But as I mentioned above I'm curious how the different systems affect world building?  Or if I'm misunderstanding what part your saying is more difficult?
What sort of problems are you running into by not deciding something?
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monbvol

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Re: So where does your State stand vrs D&D?
« Reply #53 on: 13 December 2021, 11:38:19 »
I'm curious Monbvol, what sort of stuff is it that your having to decide between DD5E v/s PF1E ?

I'm not understanding where the "world building" part is any more/less difficult.

I do get what people are saying about 3E/3.5E/PF1E being more difficult to handle all the special different player options by having to know all options for all the different Multi-Class options & Skill Limits/Cross Class v/s Class per Level & having to know all the Prestige Classes, etc etc.
As a Player it's what made me love 3E+ but I can see why some GMs hated it.

But as I mentioned above I'm curious how the different systems affect world building?  Or if I'm misunderstanding what part your saying is more difficult?
What sort of problems are you running into by not deciding something?

The biggest stumbling blocks right now for me for 5e is I do have to put a lot more thought into how I want to price magic items that I want available in shops, the DMG is surprisingly vague on this matter, and which ones I want to be available as quest rewards.

It may seem like a small thing to stumble over but I'm seeing first hand and watching a lot of youtube videos about how not carefully considering such things can make or break a campaign.

Hellraiser

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Re: So where does your State stand vrs D&D?
« Reply #54 on: 13 December 2021, 13:40:43 »
Ahhh,  I see.

Yes, I did notice that in the 1 campaign I participated in for 5E, magic was much more rare.
It was almost like everything was a 1-off item, not much "generics" were there.

3E+ was quite accessible in how you could go pick up a 1st Level Wand of Cure Light Wounds in any city.





Going off on a bit of a tangent but I have a question for the community.

One of the things I felt 3E+ did wrong was the "Favored Class" for each race & the Multi-class XP Penalty in relation to that.
It was also funny to see some NPCs like Drizzt who would have been taking some insane XP penalties the way they were built.

Did anyone run into issues like that?

I always thought it was odd that a 10/10 Elf Fighter/Thief was fine at 20th level but an 12/8 Fighter Thief was taking an XP Penalty


I was working on a home rule for a campaign I was going to run.
It remove the whole XP penalty issue & converted the "Favored Class" ability to be something like the Human Bonus Skill Point only for other races it was just for their Favored Class.


The Skills as a whole I found rather badly done.
It was annoying to track in terms of "Cross Class" limits & how taking points at 1 level is 1/1 but at the next level it was 1/2, etc etc.
The entire nature of x4 skill points at first level was also a bit imbalanced it made taking certain classes at 1st much better than others if you were going to split classes.
Halfling Rogue/Cleric?  Make sure you take Rogue at 1st.   Human Fighter/Ranger, get that Ranger in first.

I felt a system w/ like X-starting skill points (20?) and a bonus in points = 4x Int Bonus & then regular class skill points would have been better.
I would have just gone w/ Access or No-Access in terms of Cross Class.  So as long as 1 of your classes has it then its max points as limit regardless of what level you just took.
The starting points of 20+4*Int would be "life lessons" based on where you were up as a child & would be available from all skills list.
Got a Rogue raised as the local Church as an Orphan, its cool to give them 4 points of Knowledge Religion & Spellcraft even as a fighter to start.
Got a Wizard who's master owned a farm & part of his chores was taking care of the livestock,  give them 4 points of Animal Handling at 1st level.
Got a Priest that was part of a thieves gang as a childhood before being caught & reformed by a Paladin,  give them 4 ranks in pick locks.

I feel like saying 4 points of anything at 1st level is okay for "background" & then as long as your later classes have access to a skill you can max it w/ any level later.   

Anyway, just a couple things that I felt 3E+ did wrong w/ character generation that always nagged me & curious if anyone else had issues w/ the Multi Class/Favored Class thing or skills.
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monbvol

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Re: So where does your State stand vrs D&D?
« Reply #55 on: 13 December 2021, 15:07:22 »
I think that is something Pathfinder 1e actually did rather well.

No more partial skill ranks, no more XP penalties, and give a lot more options for favored class rewards.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: So where does your State stand vrs D&D?
« Reply #56 on: 13 December 2021, 15:15:55 »
I never played a 3E game with a GM who actually used the Favored Class rule.  It was universally ignored as being ridiculous.
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Ruger

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Re: So where does your State stand vrs D&D?
« Reply #57 on: 13 December 2021, 20:57:38 »
I think that is something Pathfinder 1e actually did rather well.

No more partial skill ranks, no more XP penalties, and give a lot more options for favored class rewards.

Yeah, in Pathfinder, your favored class gives you the option of either an additional hit point or skill rank or another option based on your race and class.

And you didn’t have favored classes assigned by race. You, the player decided what was your favored class.

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Re: So where does your State stand vrs D&D?
« Reply #58 on: 14 December 2021, 00:32:16 »
I think that is something Pathfinder 1e actually did rather well.

No more partial skill ranks, no more XP penalties, and give a lot more options for favored class rewards.

I never played PF but nice to know they did away with those &/or altered them.

The concept of a "Favored" class I loved, just not the mechanics of what they used that for.

We all know Elves are good at Magic so having an Elven Wizard gain an extra Skill Point seemed pretty logical, but, penalizing them any time any other 2 classes were not "touching" each other in # of levels, was bonkers.
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Re: So where does your State stand vrs D&D?
« Reply #59 on: 14 December 2021, 01:23:50 »
It was considered an upgrade from 2E simply not letting you take certain classes based on your race.
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