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Author Topic: Squad LMG?  (Read 4293 times)

Daryk

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Re: Squad LMG?
« Reply #60 on: 29 November 2022, 21:21:09 »
Negative, CVB, and indeed you did. Thanks for the heads up.

My response to Daryk in particular was simply to clarify what weapon in question. As I said later, snipers are not really my area of expertise and it shows. But machine gun and TOW employment, and general infantry tactics and professional pursuits are, for example is, so that is what I expound upon.
Post #36 was the first link, and any response to that I would have had was overdriven by other comments... sorry!  :-\

guardiandashi

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Re: Squad LMG?
« Reply #61 on: 29 November 2022, 23:42:52 »
I think there is confusion in terms . . . a M249 spare barrel from one MG can be put on another though you might get some wear differences.  A M249 barrel cannot go on a M240 & vice versa.

I never thought that you could just interchange barrels from an M2 to a m249 or a m60 etc. even if they were using the same rounds.
but more that in theory any m60 barrel should theoretically be usable on any other m60, but in practice that may not actually work.

Colt Ward

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Re: Squad LMG?
« Reply #62 on: 30 November 2022, 00:37:24 »
I was just clarifying as it seemed some of the comments seemed to indicate a bit of confusion.

For those that do not know . . .
M2 is a .50 caliber
M60 is 7.62mm
M240 is also 7.62
M249 is 5.56mm but with a higher charge for the cyclic rate than M16/M4 5.56

and the Mk 19 is a 40mm auto grenade launcher
Colt Ward
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Hellraiser

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Re: Squad LMG?
« Reply #63 on: 30 November 2022, 12:31:55 »
M249 is 5.56mm but with a higher charge for the cyclic rate than M16/M4 5.56
Are you saying they don't use the exact same ammo?
This is news to me if so.  So just wondering.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Squad LMG?
« Reply #64 on: 30 November 2022, 12:58:49 »
IIRC when I asked the question long ago . . . the charge in the cartridge is slightly higher for the gas to be able to cycle at the specified rate- part of why it has a higher muzzle velocity than the rifles?  It CAN fire M16/M4 rounds- it even has a magazine port but that is a desperation move because it increases the jam rate (spring vs belt) . . . but some shooting is better than no shooting.
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Cannonshop

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Re: Squad LMG?
« Reply #65 on: 30 November 2022, 13:14:02 »
Are you saying they don't use the exact same ammo?
This is news to me if so.  So just wondering.

I'm kinda confused here too, since that's not what we had back in the early 1990s when we got ours.  It was pretty much the same ammo, only on disintegrating links.

(and wasn't THAT just a treat to police up?)
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Elmoth

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Re: Squad LMG?
« Reply #66 on: 30 November 2022, 16:02:17 »
I also thought that SAW/LMG (in western nato units at least) was supposed to use the same ammo as the rest.of the squad to simplify logistics a great deal?

Daryk

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Re: Squad LMG?
« Reply #67 on: 30 November 2022, 18:56:36 »
That's what I thought too...  ???

Failure16

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Re: Squad LMG?
« Reply #68 on: 30 November 2022, 20:08:05 »
I think there is confusion in terms . . . a M249 spare barrel from one MG can be put on another though you might get some wear differences.  A M249 barrel cannot go on a M240 & vice versa.

Hate to disagree, CW. But, no, barrels for the 249/240 are not interchangeable without the prior intervention of the direct support ("third shop") echelon. You do not have to believe me, nor the manuals that explicitly say so in their own separate "look at me" box. But I say this as a fire team and squad leader who had one if not both gun-teams under me for rating/counseling purposes, in addition to running multiple SAW ranges up to battalion level in different capacities.

You can literally do so, of course, but you run the very real risk of issues that chanman already elucidated--ranging from ruining the gun, to ruining the gunner. Sure, in a firefight I'd do whatever needed to be done. But in garrison, well, I'm glad I wasn't a part of a unit that would do such a thing. Fun fact: did you know that both barrels of a machine gun need to be zeroed and qualified on? The barrels themselves are just as much a precision instrument as the rest of the weapon system.

And the ammo used in the M249 is the same as the rest of NATO's 5.56x45, in the US being known as the M855, or "green tip". It is possible that Colt might have heard stories told by older salts where they were conflating the older M193 ammo and newer M855 to effect that the "new automatic weapon used higher-powered ammo". It was a common article of confusion and urban myths around the turn of the century when I was entering service.
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth, 
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Daryk

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Re: Squad LMG?
« Reply #69 on: 30 November 2022, 20:29:00 »
What did I miss?  Who would claim a 5.56mm barrel (M249) could be swapped for an M240 (7.62mm)? ???

Failure16

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Re: Squad LMG?
« Reply #70 on: 30 November 2022, 20:46:12 »
Um, no one? Although I guess there's a rumor based on something I said? If so, I assumed everyone knew what I was saying when I was responding to Hellraiser's remembrances about piles o' fifty barrels and stating that M249/60/240B barrels could not be interchanged.

EDIT: Although it goes without saying that you should be able to push a 5.56 round though a larger 7.62 bore with no problems, at least, amirite?

 ;)
« Last Edit: 30 November 2022, 20:54:29 by Failure16 »
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth, 
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.
When I needed something good.                                            One day we'll reveal the truth,
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.        That one will die before he gets there.

But I'd think of something better if I could
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Hellraiser

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Re: Squad LMG?
« Reply #71 on: 30 November 2022, 21:09:00 »
(and wasn't THAT just a treat to police up?)

Range day is FUN :)   hehehe
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Daryk

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Re: Squad LMG?
« Reply #72 on: 30 November 2022, 21:15:01 »
We didn't get to play with full auto anything on the range...  :-\

Failure16

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Re: Squad LMG?
« Reply #73 on: 30 November 2022, 21:25:18 »
It was pretty much the same ammo, only on disintegrating links.

(and wasn't THAT just a treat to police up?)

Police up, Hell. Try crawling across them on a bare concrete floor. Talk about special kinds of pain...


We didn't get to play with full auto anything on the range...  :-\

I'm not going to lie, D: you weren't really missing out. I guess maybe on a fam-fire range you'd get to blast out the starter belt they might give you, but on a dedicated machine-gun range, it's all about 6-9 round bursts.

Except that one range at NTC: end of the fiscal year and have to use up the on-hand stock to get the same budgetary allocation for next FY. That day and night we got to practice those "mad minutes" you read about in books on Vietnam.

But like CS and Hellraiser said, the cleanup took away some of the luster. Since you cannot turn in spent brass and links intermixed to the ammo point... :bang:
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth, 
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.
When I needed something good.                                            One day we'll reveal the truth,
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.        That one will die before he gets there.

But I'd think of something better if I could
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Hellraiser

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Re: Squad LMG?
« Reply #74 on: 30 November 2022, 21:32:56 »
We didn't get to play with full auto anything on the range...  :-\ 

What a bummer.

Actually my full auto range time I guess was just when we ran the 50 range & then night shooting on the M16 since there was minimal chance of hitting & it wasn't for score, we just blew through the magazines. 
The 50 was fun since after qualifying we got to blow through the rest of the ammo.
Though yes, clean up sucked, like, hours of cleanup.

9mm, 45, & M16 day time was all single shot.

Field training missions I've used M-249, M-60 on patrols (no clean up), & M-240c from my tank (big box catches it).
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
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"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Squad LMG?
« Reply #75 on: 30 November 2022, 22:47:36 »
So is there a difference in doctrinal usage for a machine gun when it's being used by an infantry squad vs a vehicle?  I played D&D wit a guy a long time ago who'd talk about being a door gunner on a UH-60 and stuff they'd do on training (I'm pretty sure he never actually saw action).  Liked to brag about how he and other guys would hold competitions to do things like see who could cut a tree down faster.

He liked to tell a lot of stories about doing stuff, if you get my drift.
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Prospernia

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Re: Squad LMG?
« Reply #76 on: 30 November 2022, 23:07:17 »
By the way, in the 31st Century AD, they solved the problem with machinegun-barrels overheating; MGs produce zero heat.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Squad LMG?
« Reply #77 on: 30 November 2022, 23:16:31 »
Unless they're using rapid fire rules.
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chanman

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Re: Squad LMG?
« Reply #78 on: 01 December 2022, 00:38:04 »
By the way, in the 31st Century AD, they solved the problem with machinegun-barrels overheating; MGs produce zero heat.

Of course they do. They weigh 500 kilos! They're going to shoot out the rifling of those barrels long before they run out of thermal capacity of that much liquid coolant.

Failure16

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Re: Squad LMG?
« Reply #79 on: 01 December 2022, 01:29:50 »
By the way, in the 31st Century AD, they solved the problem with machinegun-barrels overheating; MGs produce zero heat.

It's all about timescale. By the book, a machine gun firing 100 rpm in 6-9 round bursts wouldn't need to think about a barrel change for ten minutes. I personally have never seen a BattleTech game--even battalion level engagements of which I have participated in several in my heyday of the early-mid 90s--go for sixty turns with MGs firing continuously. Now, an old-school Solaris VII dueling-rules fight might be getting close to overheating a real-world machine gun (firing a burst or more every 2.5 seconds) could change things. But then MLO4H is onto something.

Maybe those "battalion of Stingers versus an Atlas" fights we always hear about apply here... ;D

EDIT:
Of course they do. They weigh 500 kilos! They're going to shoot out the rifling of those barrels long before they run out of thermal capacity of that much liquid coolant.

And there is that, too.


So is there a difference in doctrinal usage for a machine gun when it's being used by an infantry squad vs a vehicle?  I played D&D wit a guy a long time ago who'd talk about being a door gunner on a UH-60 and stuff they'd do on training (I'm pretty sure he never actually saw action).  Liked to brag about how he and other guys would hold competitions to do things like see who could cut a tree down faster.

Never underestimate training. If it wasn't important, even vital, the US military wouldn't place such emphasis on its Training Centers. But sure, some real-world experience puts some needed tempering on it. Having said all that, I do find that many other veterans' claims of their training does not square with my own. For me, training was focused and directed--even the free-form actions at NTC and JRTC--with little opportunity for nominal "horse-play" (or less charitable terms like "F-F games") like cutting down trees with airborne machine guns.

I mean, there are things like range-safety officers and NCOs watching everything you do. But hey, not every unit or station is the same.

Doctrinally, I suppose the differences between a grounded squad machine gun and aerial machine gun could be either zero or a hundred. Technically, the weapon itself is a little different between the pistol-grip/buttstock of the infantry M240B and the double-spade grip of the M240H (but they make an "egress kit" to convert the -H into a -B for dismounted operations). For what it is worth, the reference you are looking for is Appendix A of FM 3-04.140 (newer version of FM 1-140) Helicopter Gunnery. I spent a lot of time on helicopters of various types (mainly -60s, but also vismodded UH-1s at NTC), but was never a door-gunner nor even fired out of a helo.

Some differences between ground- and door-gunners are the fact that the door gunner doesn't have many of the aids the ground gunner has regarding range to target, the firing platform is normally moving, and they do not have a leader or assistant to help monitor ammo usage, firing patterns, etc. Whatever they do, they do on their own. Sure, they have an aircraft commander involved, but not like an infantry squad or platoon leader/sergeant.

The root of the difference is that the infantry MMG is designed to assist the infantry squad and platoon accomplish its mission, whereas the helicopter MMG is for protection of the aircraft.  FM 3-22.68 tells us:

Quote
The M240B machine gun supports the rifleman in both offensive and
defensive operations. The M240B provides the heavy volume of close and
continuous fire needed to accomplish the mission. The M240B is used to
engage targets beyond the range of individual weapons, with controlled
and accurate fire. The long-range, close defensive, and final protective
fires delivered by the M240B form an integral part of a unit’s defensive
fires.

The M240H in a helicopter door-gun mount is actually used to hit close(r) in targets that are relatively clearly visible to either protect the helo itself, or suppress likely engagement areas preparatory to landing to unloading/loading personnel or gear*. Door gunners also have fields of fire they are responsible for, and these change depending on how many helicopters are operating together, and which side of the aircraft they are on. That in itself is a paradigmatic change from an infantry gun-team, which is controlled by a platoon-level leader and has...whatever sector of fire is assigned to it at the moment.



He liked to tell a lot of stories about doing stuff, if you get my drift.

I knew a gentleman who did two tours in Vietnam, much of it as a door gunner on a Huey and possibly on a Loach. He didn't tell any stories. I get your drift perfectly.


*Movies make it seem like door gunners are doing all that firing to support the troopies unassing the helo. Really, they are doing to prevent themselves from getting shot up. I don't begrudge them that. Because I wanted them to leave safely so they could come get us all later!
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth, 
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.
When I needed something good.                                            One day we'll reveal the truth,
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.        That one will die before he gets there.

But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra
--A. Duritz

idea weenie

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Re: Squad LMG?
« Reply #80 on: 01 December 2022, 02:55:12 »
But like CS and Hellraiser said, the cleanup took away some of the luster. Since you cannot turn in spent brass and links intermixed to the ammo point... :bang:

How many home-grown ideas were there to make separating the brass and links easier?

nerd

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Re: Squad LMG?
« Reply #81 on: 01 December 2022, 12:26:59 »
How many home-grown ideas were there to make separating the brass and links easier?
It was have enough people looking through to separate, and understanding that it won't be perfect. In garrison, it's going through the bins of links and brass several times.

I've had some familiarization firing on the M240 and MK 43, and we got a certain amount of ammo and were required to shoot single shots and then bursts, followed by finishing it off. A barrel change is required, mostly so you know how to do it.
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Hellraiser

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Re: Squad LMG?
« Reply #82 on: 01 December 2022, 17:46:08 »
So is there a difference in doctrinal usage for a machine gun when it's being used by an infantry squad vs a vehicle?
.....
Liked to brag about how he and other guys would hold competitions to do things like see who could cut a tree down faster.

I was in an unusual unit type & in the field the .50 was on the tanks & because of that, we ran the range, but, most of the unit was infantry.
The range is all done from Tri-Pod sandbag positions & not on the vehicles. 
We do use the 50 in live gunnery for the tanks, but, that isn't the same as the qualifier range for badges.

Cutting down a tree?   

With live rounds out on a mission?  Seems like shooting would be against he OP orders.  Very undisciplined that would be.

With live rounds on a range?   I'm assuming these are REALLY small trees (scrub) because I've never been on a range with large trees & you certainly wouldn't try to cut down some massive oak.  That said, after the qualifing was over when we had time to blow through the palets of ammo, we could shoot at just about anything on the range instead of just the designated targets we qualified on.
I know of some tank crews that would TRY to take down the 2x4 "goalposts" holding up the large tank targets instead of the big tank silhouette thus causing it to crash over on its side & have a range team have to go rebuild the stands.

Training missions use Blanks, so that isn't likely, though you have plenty of trees & you will be shooting w/o the Op Orders, plenty of foolish things happen on the training grounds when your off on a small patrol & no one is around.  I once had to go find a squad that had ended up crossing over the base gate/fence and ending up into a nearby German town on "accident".
Myself, I just assume they wanted to get out of the cold & get some beer.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Prospernia

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Re: Squad LMG?
« Reply #83 on: 01 December 2022, 17:56:40 »
Unless they're using rapid fire rules.

True, but technically, it took them until almost the start of the Jihad, in 3060(?) before they figured out they could do that.  The two-hundred years of the Succession-Wars, MGs could only fire non-rapid fire rules.

 

Failure16

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Re: Squad LMG?
« Reply #84 on: 01 December 2022, 18:59:10 »
True, but technically, it took them until almost the start of the Jihad, in 3060(?) before they figured out they could do that.  The two-hundred years of the Succession-Wars, MGs could only fire non-rapid fire rules.

Doctrine is a bitch. It took the madness of the Jihad for old-timey Stinger jockey to think to themselves: "You know what, let's really let these babies rip!"
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth, 
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.
When I needed something good.                                            One day we'll reveal the truth,
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.        That one will die before he gets there.

But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra
--A. Duritz

chanman

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Re: Squad LMG?
« Reply #85 on: 01 December 2022, 19:11:31 »
Doctrine is a bitch. It took the madness of the Jihad for old-timey Stinger jockey to think to themselves: "You know what, let's really let these babies rip!"

Clearly at some point the timeline diverged and everyone went back to Hotchkiss-style feed strips. Reloading mechanisms can only have so much dexterity and reload so fast y'know. And that's why they're so heavy too! Weird Rube Goldberg monstrosities of servos and mechanical appendages to operate the gun...

Prospernia

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Re: Squad LMG?
« Reply #86 on: 01 December 2022, 21:18:03 »
And the range is only, like, 90-meters.

Failure16

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Re: Squad LMG?
« Reply #87 on: 01 December 2022, 22:21:14 »
That's only because the mechanical appendages are throwing the rounds out. By hand. Because rifling is too LosTechian.
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth, 
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.
When I needed something good.                                            One day we'll reveal the truth,
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.        That one will die before he gets there.

But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra
--A. Duritz

Cannonshop

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Re: Squad LMG?
« Reply #88 on: 01 December 2022, 22:40:27 »
That's only because the mechanical appendages are throwing the rounds out. By hand. Because rifling is too LosTechian.

LOL...

I just figured they were loading 20mm Balls propelled by black powder from cartridges of around 63mm length.

Y'know, like slugs from a shotgun.

Huge damage curve-within the effective range, but fast damage drop-off because the projectile's about as aerodynamic as a brick.
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Elmoth

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Re: Squad LMG?
« Reply #89 on: 02 December 2022, 01:06:42 »
Makes perfect sense to me. Add some 80s color lights and we are good to go

 

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