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Author Topic: AToW Vehicle Quirk rules and Battlemech Manual list?  (Read 5871 times)

victor_shaw

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Re: AToW Vehicle Quirk rules and Battlemech Manual list?
« Reply #60 on: 07 November 2021, 23:27:57 »
So without getting to in depth as to set off legal issues.
Here is may "Wishlist" of changes I think need to be made.

1. The point system needs to be reigned in. 5000 point is a bit much for what the system is trying to accomplish. As the system is so rigid about point, this seems to be a bit overboard. Now if the system was modified to be less rigid the large point total could work.

2. Traits need a complete overhaul. The rigid 100 point per level allows for no real modification and produces way to much waste XP at the end of Character creation. There is also the issue that Traits are not well balanced verses each other due to this.

3. Lifepaths should be redesigned into packages that provided a set number of Skills/Attributes/Traits. There could also be a "most people have this" section added for examples of extra Skills/Attributes/Traits that they might want to get.

4. Since Field Skills all get the same levels per skill the discount should already be figured out and added to the package cost.

5. The Universal points should provide the points to make the Attributes human norm and the skills should provide at least level 1 in the skills.

there are more but i am tired lol

monbvol

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Re: AToW Vehicle Quirk rules and Battlemech Manual list?
« Reply #61 on: 08 November 2021, 10:57:08 »
So without getting to in depth as to set off legal issues.
Here is may "Wishlist" of changes I think need to be made.

1. The point system needs to be reigned in. 5000 point is a bit much for what the system is trying to accomplish. As the system is so rigid about point, this seems to be a bit overboard. Now if the system was modified to be less rigid the large point total could work.

2. Traits need a complete overhaul. The rigid 100 point per level allows for no real modification and produces way to much waste XP at the end of Character creation. There is also the issue that Traits are not well balanced verses each other due to this.

3. Lifepaths should be redesigned into packages that provided a set number of Skills/Attributes/Traits. There could also be a "most people have this" section added for examples of extra Skills/Attributes/Traits that they might want to get.

4. Since Field Skills all get the same levels per skill the discount should already be figured out and added to the package cost.

5. The Universal points should provide the points to make the Attributes human norm and the skills should provide at least level 1 in the skills.

there are more but i am tired lol

1: I am fully willing to admit it is because I am not intimidated by large numbers and have learned to be organized and that really helps with the supposed rigidness of AToW that I doubt we'll ever fully agree on this being an issue really.  Especially as much as I'm a detail oriented person I also have a pretty decent track record of not getting overly caught up on numbers.

2: My copy of AToW makes it pretty clear traits are not meant to be balanced on a point value as the nature of one type of campaign can change how useful a trait can be versus another. Still yes a few could stand to be re-worked and I do go back and forth on if traits and attributes should be a linear progression or if they should be a non-linear progression like skills are so to an extent point is still taken.

3: Not feasible without doing a very extensive overhaul.

4: This one is more feasible.  I have a fairly simple solution for it down in my house rules thread.

5. A bit torn on this.  It's not a terrible idea but something about having to build down if I want a character that is below human norm in an attribute or two doesn't quite sit right with me versus just starting low and then building up.  But because that could very well just be a me thing I think I could get over it and support the idea.

Daryk

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Re: AToW Vehicle Quirk rules and Battlemech Manual list?
« Reply #62 on: 08 November 2021, 19:17:36 »
I believe starting at the minimums makes making children easier.

As far as Traits, there are a few SPAs that cost some multiple of 50 instead of 100.

EDIT: Missing word.
« Last Edit: 09 November 2021, 03:55:42 by Daryk »

victor_shaw

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Re: AToW Vehicle Quirk rules and Battlemech Manual list?
« Reply #63 on: 08 November 2021, 22:14:44 »
1: I am fully willing to admit it is because I am not intimidated by large numbers and have learned to be organized and that really helps with the supposed rigidness of AToW that I doubt we'll ever fully agree on this being an issue really.  Especially as much as I'm a detail oriented person I also have a pretty decent track record of not getting overly caught up on numbers.

2: My copy of AToW makes it pretty clear traits are not meant to be balanced on a point value as the nature of one type of campaign can change how useful a trait can be versus another. Still yes a few could stand to be re-worked and I do go back and forth on if traits and attributes should be a linear progression or if they should be a non-linear progression like skills are so to an extent point is still taken.

3: Not feasible without doing a very extensive overhaul.

4: This one is more feasible.  I have a fairly simple solution for it down in my house rules thread.

5. A bit torn on this.  It's not a terrible idea but something about having to build down if I want a character that is below human norm in an attribute or two doesn't quite sit right with me versus just starting low and then building up.  But because that could very well just be a me thing I think I could get over it and support the idea.

1. It's not so much being intimidated by large numbers. It has more to do with their really being no point  to the being  that large since the  rule do really  use the space between for anything  important. Everything I the game including skills can be divided by ten without seriously harming the rules.

2.if that's the choice they are going for  I  think  it is a bad decision,  but it's their game.

3. Maybe I'm the only one,  but that think that's the point right now. From what I've seen the games not doing well right now, so it may need this much work.

4. It's a given.

5. Why? The rules for life path already reduce  attributes  (a lot). So why would  starting  at a higher level  make it harder to understand?

monbvol

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Re: AToW Vehicle Quirk rules and Battlemech Manual list?
« Reply #64 on: 08 November 2021, 22:44:47 »
1.  Players like progression.  The numbers as they are now keep progression from being too fast while also allowing XP to be XP in that it spends the same at character creation as it does at character advancement.  Simply dividing by 10 makes this a much trickier proposition.  Personally I appreciate this approach.

2.  It is more a concession that TPTB know no matter what they put in print it'll never stop min maxers and taking this approach actually grants greater freedom in campaign styles that can be played.

3.  Revise? TPTB do seem interested in that.  Rework it so that the easily thousands of combinations of modules possible never result in mid points between attributes, traits, and skills seems another all together.

4.  The hardest part of this would be layout and page count considerations for sure.

5.  Never said it was harder to understand.  Just that the way my mind works it prefers to build up rather than down and as stated it is something I can deal with if the decision is made to go that route.

victor_shaw

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Re: AToW Vehicle Quirk rules and Battlemech Manual list?
« Reply #65 on: 09 November 2021, 06:30:42 »
1.  Players like progression.  The numbers as they are now keep progression from being too fast while also allowing XP to be XP in that it spends the same at character creation as it does at character advancement.  Simply dividing by 10 makes this a much trickier proposition.  Personally I appreciate this approach.

2.  It is more a concession that TPTB know no matter what they put in print it'll never stop min maxers and taking this approach actually grants greater freedom in campaign styles that can be played.

3.  Revise? TPTB do seem interested in that.  Rework it so that the easily thousands of combinations of modules possible never result in mid points between attributes, traits, and skills seems another all together.

4.  The hardest part of this would be layout and page count considerations for sure.

5.  Never said it was harder to understand.  Just that the way my mind works it prefers to build up rather than down and as stated it is something I can deal with if the decision is made to go that route.

1. Let me be clear, I am not against the 5,000 points system because it is a large number. I'm against the fact that this large number is not really used for anything as most of what comes out of it is rigidly set to 100 point increments. As for skills, there is no real needed for the system to have to have skill progression be the same in character creation as it is in play. Actually, most RPGs don't have it set up that way.

Now I am going to say something that most will not find agreeable.
I actually like the 3rd edition Character creation system. The issues with the system where never the Lifepaths, it was the split of the Gunnery skill into 3 skills, the low skill points provided, and the random event tables.

2. The problems with the Traits right now is the fixed 100 points limits the variation that the Traits can have as higher level can drive the cost out of reach of a starting player. So you windup with Alternate ID and Ambidextrous costing as much as a Light Mech. You also run into the issues that you can't really mod them without seriously under/over pricing them.

4. this is just here for completeness as I believe the writers have already acknowledged that this needs to be fixed.


3/5. Ok, let me put it to you within the system.
Per the book pg.35 (An Attribute score of 4 defines the level an “average” person may expect). Now this opens a bigger can of worms, as Basic training requires a min of (WIL 3, INT 3) and Mechwarrior requires a min of (RFL 4, DEX 4) so this tells me that the military takes below average soldiers and average mechwarriors.  8) Now I will assume this in in error and it should be 3 for the stats below and edge only needs to be 1.

I will also do this as a run through with one Tour of Duty and just what is assigned to the Attribute, extra bonus specifically to Attribute will be assigned to RFL and DEX a mechwarriors main Attributes.

Noble born Federated Suns Mechwarrior
Path: Fedsuns-Nobility-Military School-Military Academy-TOD (Innersphere) Total cost: 2,735
Final Attribute totals; STR: 125, BOD:125, RFL: 175, DEX: 150, INT: 150, WIL: 250, CHA: 250, EDG: 50
Total extra XP needed just to reach minimums and human norm: 1,125

Mercenary Brat Mechwarrior
Path: Mercenary-Born Mercenary-Mercenary Brat-Family Training-TOD (Innersphere)Total cost: 2,530
Final Attribute totals; STR: 250, BOD:225, RFL: 300, DEX: 150, INT: 80, WIL: 210, CHA: 30, EDG: 125
Total extra XP needed just to reach minimums and human norm: 970

Clan Wolf Trueborn Mechwarrior
Path: Clan Wolf-Trueborn Creche-Trueborn Sibko-TOD (Clan) Total cost: 3,163
Final Attribute totals; STR: 200, BOD:275, RFL: 350 (+100*), DEX: 310(+100*), INT: 125, WIL: 245, CHA: -5, EDG: 100
*Clan Mechwarrior Phenotype Trait.
Total extra XP needed just to reach minimums and human norm: 725

Total cost to finish paths and have Human Norm + Minimums
Noble born Federated Suns Mechwarrior: 3,860
Mercenary Brat Mechwarrior: 3,500
Clan Wolf Trueborn Mechwarrior: 3,888

All the paths I ran required points to be added just to bring them to Human Norm + Minimums.
This is what I am talking about when I say the Lifepaths are at best light templates and at worst broken.
And lets not get into the wasted points that are all rebated at the end.

monbvol

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Re: AToW Vehicle Quirk rules and Battlemech Manual list?
« Reply #66 on: 09 November 2021, 10:13:01 »
1. Let me be clear, I am not against the 5,000 points system because it is a large number. I'm against the fact that this large number is not really used for anything as most of what comes out of it is rigidly set to 100 point increments. As for skills, there is no real needed for the system to have to have skill progression be the same in character creation as it is in play. Actually, most RPGs don't have it set up that way.

Now I am going to say something that most will not find agreeable.
I actually like the 3rd edition Character creation system. The issues with the system where never the Lifepaths, it was the split of the Gunnery skill into 3 skills, the low skill points provided, and the random event tables.

2. The problems with the Traits right now is the fixed 100 points limits the variation that the Traits can have as higher level can drive the cost out of reach of a starting player. So you windup with Alternate ID and Ambidextrous costing as much as a Light Mech. You also run into the issues that you can't really mod them without seriously under/over pricing them.

4. this is just here for completeness as I believe the writers have already acknowledged that this needs to be fixed.


3/5. Ok, let me put it to you within the system.
Per the book pg.35 (An Attribute score of 4 defines the level an “average” person may expect). Now this opens a bigger can of worms, as Basic training requires a min of (WIL 3, INT 3) and Mechwarrior requires a min of (RFL 4, DEX 4) so this tells me that the military takes below average soldiers and average mechwarriors.  8) Now I will assume this in in error and it should be 3 for the stats below and edge only needs to be 1.

I will also do this as a run through with one Tour of Duty and just what is assigned to the Attribute, extra bonus specifically to Attribute will be assigned to RFL and DEX a mechwarriors main Attributes.

Noble born Federated Suns Mechwarrior
Path: Fedsuns-Nobility-Military School-Military Academy-TOD (Innersphere) Total cost: 2,735
Final Attribute totals; STR: 125, BOD:125, RFL: 175, DEX: 150, INT: 150, WIL: 250, CHA: 250, EDG: 50
Total extra XP needed just to reach minimums and human norm: 1,125

Mercenary Brat Mechwarrior
Path: Mercenary-Born Mercenary-Mercenary Brat-Family Training-TOD (Innersphere)Total cost: 2,530
Final Attribute totals; STR: 250, BOD:225, RFL: 300, DEX: 150, INT: 80, WIL: 210, CHA: 30, EDG: 125
Total extra XP needed just to reach minimums and human norm: 970

Clan Wolf Trueborn Mechwarrior
Path: Clan Wolf-Trueborn Creche-Trueborn Sibko-TOD (Clan) Total cost: 3,163
Final Attribute totals; STR: 200, BOD:275, RFL: 350 (+100*), DEX: 310(+100*), INT: 125, WIL: 245, CHA: -5, EDG: 100
*Clan Mechwarrior Phenotype Trait.
Total extra XP needed just to reach minimums and human norm: 725

Total cost to finish paths and have Human Norm + Minimums
Noble born Federated Suns Mechwarrior: 3,860
Mercenary Brat Mechwarrior: 3,500
Clan Wolf Trueborn Mechwarrior: 3,888

All the paths I ran required points to be added just to bring them to Human Norm + Minimums.
This is what I am talking about when I say the Lifepaths are at best light templates and at worst broken.
And lets not get into the wasted points that are all rebated at the end.

1.  That it's not common for XP to be XP in that it always spends the same honestly is a selling point to me that helps AToW stand out from the competition as something different and interesting.

2.  Alternate ID and Ambidextrous depending on the type of campaign desired can come up a lot more and be utilized more than the fact that a character has a Light Mech.  So again while the point totals are the same a different campaign style changes how useful each trait is.

That the gunnery skills were split was never the problem with 3rd.  It was the random events.  I personally watched someone try to generate a police detective but instead wound up spending so much time in prison that it was something of a joke that we all agreed he was a serial killer instead.  And the life modules there were no better about making sure attributes, traits, and skills came out at exact levels.

Personally I have zero problem with AToW lifepaths being light templates.  Gives gentle nudges without being straight jackets.  That's what a module system should do in my opinion.

victor_shaw

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Re: AToW Vehicle Quirk rules and Battlemech Manual list?
« Reply #67 on: 09 November 2021, 10:26:27 »
1.  That it's not common for XP to be XP in that it always spends the same honestly is a selling point to me that helps AToW stand out from the competition as something different and interesting.

2.  Alternate ID and Ambidextrous depending on the type of campaign desired can come up a lot more and be utilized more than the fact that a character has a Light Mech.  So again while the point totals are the same a different campaign style changes how useful each trait is.

That the gunnery skills were split was never the problem with 3rd.  It was the random events.  I personally watched someone try to generate a police detective but instead wound up spending so much time in prison that it was something of a joke that we all agreed he was a serial killer instead.  And the life modules there were no better about making sure attributes, traits, and skills came out at exact levels.

Personally I have zero problem with AToW lifepaths being light templates.  Gives gentle nudges without being straight jackets.  That's what a module system should do in my opinion.

Well we can agree to disagree then, because all the reasons I gave are the reasons that the 10+ players I have tried to get to play AToW said they were not interested.

It comes down to whether I like AToW or not as it is, if I can't get people to play it then it serves no purpose to me or my players if it exist or is doesn't. I am not saying that other might not like it but some people like MW: Destiny (I have no clue why). Doesn't mean I can get anyone to play it.

I gave some of the problems (there are more) my players and I have with the current version of AToW and my opinions not going to change. Arguing about it serves no purpose. So you/they have my issues.

monbvol

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Re: AToW Vehicle Quirk rules and Battlemech Manual list?
« Reply #68 on: 09 November 2021, 11:17:36 »
Well we can agree to disagree then, because all the reasons I gave are the reasons that the 10+ players I have tried to get to play AToW said they were not interested.

It comes down to whether I like AToW or not as it is, if I can't get people to play it then it serves no purpose to me or my players if it exist or is doesn't. I am not saying that other might not like it but some people like MW: Destiny (I have no clue why). Doesn't mean I can get anyone to play it.

I gave some of the problems (there are more) my players and I have with the current version of AToW and my opinions not going to change. Arguing about it serves no purpose. So you/they have my issues.

*shrug*

I do know AToW needs work.  Like most things how much work it needs probably lies between our two view points.  Which isn't a bad thing as I actually do take a lot of your points and don't actually disagree as much as you probably think about certain things.

victor_shaw

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Re: AToW Vehicle Quirk rules and Battlemech Manual list?
« Reply #69 on: 09 November 2021, 11:28:28 »
*shrug*

I do know AToW needs work.  Like most things how much work it needs probably lies between our two view points.  Which isn't a bad thing as I actually do take a lot of your points and don't actually disagree as much as you probably think about certain things.

Never assumed you did.
It just comes down to there being no point in going back and forth over the same thing again and again.
You are right that it probably is some place in the middle and I would more then likely be fine with it if that's what it finally come out as.
But the major point is as it currently sit AToW needs a lot of work on it's character creation and advancement. As the core system is fine as it is. Jut not sure TPTB are willing to put the work in that the game needs even if the writers are.

Daryk

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Re: AToW Vehicle Quirk rules and Battlemech Manual list?
« Reply #70 on: 09 November 2021, 20:25:15 »
Monbvol: totally with you on the "that's a feature not a bug" issues.  :thumbsup:

Victor_Shaw: I think we agreed to disagree some time ago, but that hasn't stopped us from helping each other or voicing our respective opinions on matters.  That is certainly a feature of this board!  :thumbsup:

victor_shaw

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Re: AToW Vehicle Quirk rules and Battlemech Manual list?
« Reply #71 on: 09 November 2021, 22:02:59 »
Monbvol: totally with you on the "that's a feature not a bug" issues.  :thumbsup:

Victor_Shaw: I think we agreed to disagree some time ago, but that hasn't stopped us from helping each other or voicing our respective opinions on matters.  That is certainly a feature of this board!  :thumbsup:

Not sure we have ever agreed on  anything  lol

Daryk

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Re: AToW Vehicle Quirk rules and Battlemech Manual list?
« Reply #72 on: 09 November 2021, 22:20:00 »
Certainly not 100%, but I think there's enough commonality to continue the conversation.

Hmmm... I think we might be aligned on our opinions of the latest RPG system I can't name without a warning...  ::)

victor_shaw

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Re: AToW Vehicle Quirk rules and Battlemech Manual list?
« Reply #73 on: 13 November 2021, 04:26:11 »
So I'm going to change gears here, as most of what I have written so far are the failings of AToW and previous editions. I will start by saying that the core game system is not bad and works (for the most part) well. I have heard few complaints for players that made it through character creation about the actual system itself.

These are the things that I think should be done with AToW to make it the best it could be. Some may not agree but I will try to get across my reasonings for these changes.

1. Bring back the Priority system or at least divide Skills/Attributes/Traits into separate point pools. From my own experiences and from players I have talked to, the Priority system work well to handle the issues of trying to assign point values to diametrically different areas like skills and traits. This also allows for more variation within the categories as you are not having to balance them verses each other.
With this you can have Alternate ID  worth 10 XP, Ambidextrous worth 15 XP, and Light mechs worth 40 XP and still have skill progression stay the same as it is now. And as Traits are earned in-game after the creation prosses it doesn't effect the overall game balance.

2. Attributes need a defined norm other then one hard to find sentence. They should also be balanced to that norm. Either the lifepath system needs to address this by meeting this norm 90% of the time or the universal points spent in the beginning need to equal the norm or just fall short of it. As it stands right now the universal points starts at the minimum for a PC to even be alive and the Lifepath system barley adds on to this. And if you follow the ideas in #1 of making Attributes a separate pool and/or using a Priority system it would be easy.

3. Point spending in the Lifepaths needs to be more intuitive and create a more complete PC. One of the most complained about "features" at least to me by my players, it the amount of points that are spent, then consolidated, then respent. A major culprit of this is the Field Skill packages, but most of the lifepaths have the same issues. While my players and I could overlook this with the skills (to an existent) as they are non-linear in their progression, for things like Trait and Attributes it becomes a mess when you are getting back multiple 100s of XP on most of the time incomplete traits/attributes that could have easily not have been spent in the first place.

4. At least IMHO the idea of the Lifepath system is to give the feel of growing with the PC through his/her early life. For all its faults and failings the Lifepath system in MW3 gave this feeling and felt like you had created a character. At least in my experience you don't get this feeling from the AToW lifepaths system. It feels more like you have run through a template system thinly disguised as a Lifepath system for the point buy system. The AToW system is to generic, to light on spending 5000 points, and it doesn't even spend all the points you used. The keep factor that I think helped the Lifepath system in MW3 was that is was not tide down to the point system.

5. I personally don't feel that Skills need to have the same system in both character creation and in-game advancement, but if they do this should not be tide to the same system as Attributes and Traits as it artificially inflated the latter two.

There are more but this is enough to start with.

Daryk

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Re: AToW Vehicle Quirk rules and Battlemech Manual list?
« Reply #74 on: 13 November 2021, 06:28:54 »
I'm really not sure how MW3 gave you the feeling of an organically grown character but AToW doesn't (your #4).  I get that feeling much more strongly from AToW.  And the "incomplete" traits and skills help that, I think.  Every one of those is a suggestion (nudge) to fill out that Trait or Skill, driving a decision.  Life choices are what character creation is all about to me.

I think the reason the Priority system was abandoned is that it's VERY easy to break.  Much like Shadowrun before it, it's rapidly apparent the first priority has to be Attributes (since there are no mages in BattleTech).

As for your last point, different systems before and after creation are what drove the worst abuses of MW2.  Attributes were SO expensive after creation, you really had to make those investments up front.

I think this conversation belongs in a different thread, though...

victor_shaw

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Re: AToW Vehicle Quirk rules and Battlemech Manual list?
« Reply #75 on: 13 November 2021, 08:18:29 »
I'm really not sure how MW3 gave you the feeling of an organically grown character but AToW doesn't (your #4).  I get that feeling much more strongly from AToW.  And the "incomplete" traits and skills help that, I think.  Every one of those is a suggestion (nudge) to fill out that Trait or Skill, driving a decision.  Life choices are what character creation is all about to me.

I think the reason the Priority system was abandoned is that it's VERY easy to break.  Much like Shadowrun before it, it's rapidly apparent the first priority has to be Attributes (since there are no mages in BattleTech).

As for your last point, different systems before and after creation are what drove the worst abuses of MW2.  Attributes were SO expensive after creation, you really had to make those investments up front.

I think this conversation belongs in a different thread, though...

Except that Shadowrun went back to the Priority system in the last two editions, it only got rid of it for one edition (4th) and added it it back in to the Run faster book (their version of the Companion).
I just tried to make the same character in both 3rd and AToW using the same lifepaths and trying to keep the same traits/attributes/skills, and from the experience I can say.

1. AToW took 3 times as long to make a character that was not even half as good.
2. The MW3 Attributes where far better.
3. I had to add negative traits to the AToW character just to have Attributes that met the minimums and were even remotely passable.
4. The MW3 character came out of creation with an Assault mech (no points added) were I had to add points to the AToW character just to have a light mech.
5. It took one piece of paper to make the MW3 character where it took 3 for the AToW character.
6. The AToW character for all the extra work was not even better then the MW3 character when it came to combat skills.
7. The only place where the AToW character exceeded the MW3 character was the amount of for the most part minutia skills that it had.
8. With the MW3 character I felt like each of the paths where a complete time in the characters life, but with AToW it always felt like I was just adding numbers to a running total. So yes MW3 did give the feeling I was expresing in #4 and AToW did not.

overall, not a good showing for AToW.
« Last Edit: 13 November 2021, 08:28:40 by victor_shaw »

Daryk

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Re: AToW Vehicle Quirk rules and Battlemech Manual list?
« Reply #76 on: 13 November 2021, 08:38:25 »
Can you PM me the paths you took?  I'm fairly certain I'll get different results...

victor_shaw

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Re: AToW Vehicle Quirk rules and Battlemech Manual list?
« Reply #77 on: 13 November 2021, 08:46:32 »
Can you PM me the paths you took?  I'm fairly certain I'll get different results...

Why are you so sure?
I am completely familiar with both game, I kind of take this as a insult that you would think this.

Daryk

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Re: AToW Vehicle Quirk rules and Battlemech Manual list?
« Reply #78 on: 13 November 2021, 08:58:46 »
We have such different views on the system, I don't think it's a proficiency issue.

victor_shaw

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Re: AToW Vehicle Quirk rules and Battlemech Manual list?
« Reply #79 on: 13 November 2021, 09:03:21 »
MW3: Draconis Combine-White Collar-Military School-Sun Zhang MechWarrior Academy- TOD: Draconis Combine-TOD: Draconis Combine-TOD: Draconis Combine
Random rolls used as it is a core part of the system

AToW: Draconis Combine/Pesht District-White Collar-Military School-Military Academy- TOD: Innersphere-TOD: Innersphere-TOD: Innersphere
Random rolls not used as it is a optional rule of the system

if you need the rolls let me know.
« Last Edit: 13 November 2021, 09:05:02 by victor_shaw »

Daryk

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Re: AToW Vehicle Quirk rules and Battlemech Manual list?
« Reply #80 on: 13 November 2021, 09:05:59 »
Ah, there's the issue.  AToW penalizes repeating the same path pretty severely.  Switch those repeated tours of duty with other Stage 4 modules (like Explorer, Civilian Job to represent a garrison posting, etc.) and you'll get very different results.

victor_shaw

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Re: AToW Vehicle Quirk rules and Battlemech Manual list?
« Reply #81 on: 13 November 2021, 09:15:34 »
Ah, there's the issue.  AToW penalizes repeating the same path pretty severely.  Switch those repeated tours of duty with other Stage 4 modules (like Explorer, Civilian Job to represent a garrison posting, etc.) and you'll get very different results.

So I have to take paths I don't want to just to please the system. Sounds like a failing to me.
With MW3 you just get a -1 (cumulative) to the event roll per pass.
So there is another issues with AToW that I forgot.

victor_shaw

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Re: AToW Vehicle Quirk rules and Battlemech Manual list?
« Reply #82 on: 13 November 2021, 09:18:19 »
Now just to be clear, I don't like MW3 over AToW when it comes to the core game system.
I was just illustrating how the current AToW Lifepath system is not vary good.
Truth is, I would probably not take either character if I had a chose.
And if I had to play AToW I would just use the Point buy system.
If I had a chose between the two characters (and this is not the first time I tried this) I would take the MW3 character and just convert it to AToW.
« Last Edit: 13 November 2021, 09:27:36 by victor_shaw »

Daryk

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Re: AToW Vehicle Quirk rules and Battlemech Manual list?
« Reply #83 on: 13 November 2021, 09:32:47 »
-1 (cumulative) on the event rolls doesn't even come close to "no Attributes or Traits, but pay for them anyway".  Both systems nudge you toward younger characters (one harder than the other, clearly).

victor_shaw

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Re: AToW Vehicle Quirk rules and Battlemech Manual list?
« Reply #84 on: 13 November 2021, 09:40:59 »
-1 (cumulative) on the event rolls doesn't even come close to "no Attributes or Traits, but pay for them anyway".  Both systems nudge you toward younger characters (one harder than the other, clearly).

No Attributes or Traits is the same in MW3, the difference is that MW3 doesn't charge for Lifepaths.

monbvol

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Re: AToW Vehicle Quirk rules and Battlemech Manual list?
« Reply #85 on: 13 November 2021, 10:02:49 »
Ah, there's the issue.  AToW penalizes repeating the same path pretty severely.  Switch those repeated tours of duty with other Stage 4 modules (like Explorer, Civilian Job to represent a garrison posting, etc.) and you'll get very different results.

*nod*

I can agree that is a failing of AToW versus 3rd.