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Author Topic: Space marines  (Read 4294 times)

Nav_Alpha

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Space marines
« on: 30 September 2019, 02:24:51 »
No...  not the Warhammer 40k.
I mean the crazy guys that breach Jumpships, carry out boarding actions and ship defences.
The two examples from TRO: 3085 lists laser pistols and Blazer rifles.
But from a role playing perspective - how would you kit out your space jarheads?

Is there an argument for lasers over slug throwers in space and around delicate bulkheads?
What about needlers? Surely they’re best.
And hand to hand? How would you equip?

Anyone got any examples of ATOW style marines?


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Talen5000

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Re: Space marines
« Reply #1 on: 30 September 2019, 05:33:12 »
No...  not the Warhammer 40k.
I mean the crazy guys that breach Jumpships, carry out boarding actions and ship defences.
The two examples from TRO: 3085 lists laser pistols and Blazer rifles.
But from a role playing perspective - how would you kit out your space jarheads?

It depends.

For the Inner Sphere - swords and shotguns. Guns using low power ammo in order to preserve a rare and expensive asset.
For the Clans - SRMs and heavy support weaponry. Who cares about hull breeches? Although, if you wanted to capture the ship, a more normal weapons load might be appropriate. You want weapons heavy enough to damage troopers wearing armoured combat suits or even Elemental armour, deal with automated defence systems and the like.

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Mendrugo

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Re: Space marines
« Reply #2 on: 30 September 2019, 05:50:18 »
Several fiction pieces have addressed the issue of hull breaches.  Basically, it's something of a non-issue. 

Given the diameter of a standard bullet hole and the air pressure inside, and remembering that the ship is made of materials intended to keep micrometeorites from hulling it constantly, at most there might be a pinprick leak from a bullet strike, and the internal pressure wouldn't be enough to create a holovid-style hurricane of air pressure sucking everyone out of the compartment.  It'd be more like in the BSG pilot, where a Raptor was breached, and they just slapped a patch over it.

If you wanted to minimize structural damage, of course use needlers, or rifles with flechette ammo.  Or, use sonic stunners.  They're listed in the RPG equipment guides, but nobody ever uses them in the fiction.  Great to have if your foes have armored pressure suits (which the needler ammo will just bounce off of), but aren't equipped with auditory baffles.  Toss a sonic-stunner grenade down the corridor and incapacitate your foes without putting the ship's systems at risk.  (Explosive decompression isn't really much of a risk, but on a ship, there are plenty of items that will react badly to being shot.)

For hand to hand, use vibrodaggers.  In tight quarters, you don't want a blade you need to swing around a lot, so vibrokatanas and vibroaxes are out.
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Talen5000

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Re: Space marines
« Reply #3 on: 30 September 2019, 07:47:38 »
Several fiction pieces have addressed the issue of hull breaches.  Basically, it's something of a non-issue. 

Wasn't thinking about hull breeches from bullets....more, SRMs. Probably a non starter given BT armours but just a thought.

But the sentiment remains - the IS are skittish about losing JumpShips so would likely restrict their gear to the lightest that is viable for the mission. The Clans would choose the most effective and not care about damage to the ship or core unless they want a capture and transport.

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Daryk

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Re: Space marines
« Reply #4 on: 30 September 2019, 15:37:52 »
Lasers are preferred due to the lack of recoil.  Honestly, BA is the best Marine armor there is.  If you're in 3025, you want either a "Combat Space Suit" or a "Marine Combat Suit" (though the latter is REALLY hard to come by in 3025).

beachhead1985

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Re: Space marines
« Reply #5 on: 01 October 2019, 22:00:13 »
Gyrojets are good too; recoilless don't you know.
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Nav_Alpha

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Re: Space marines
« Reply #6 on: 02 October 2019, 01:46:42 »
Gyrojets are good too; recoilless don't you know.

Yeah, they do seem the ticket


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truetanker

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Re: Space marines
« Reply #7 on: 15 October 2019, 18:43:41 »
Clans use the Mauser IIC for the either Inferno or Non effect grenades when they have to clear a ship and it's defenders of it. The laser is just frosting.

But yeah, clans don't really care as long as their objective is done, Spheroids know that any damage has to be kept at a minimum at best.

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Mech Salvager

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Re: Space marines
« Reply #8 on: 18 October 2019, 16:10:47 »
There is actually an archetype for Inner Sphere marines in the Mechwarrior Companion. Though I'm not sure how well thought out it is to carry a sonic stunner when you're a space marine. He uses a heavy gyrojet weapon and a needler pistol.

Lamont-Cranston

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Re: Space marines
« Reply #9 on: 03 January 2020, 22:46:25 »
Crossbow and buccaneer gel gun, maybe even axes and pikes.

gunner

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Re: Space marines
« Reply #10 on: 03 January 2020, 23:39:17 »
a PIKE??    WHY WOULD YOU WANT a 12-18 foot long weapon in a boarding action????
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nerd

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Re: Space marines
« Reply #11 on: 04 January 2020, 00:00:34 »
a PIKE??    WHY WOULD YOU WANT a 12-18 foot long weapon in a boarding action????
Because an 8' 4" pig sticker is fairly light and didn't have to be reloaded. Note this example from the USS Constitution. In zero-g, it also doesn't impart force on you.
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Daryk

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Re: Space marines
« Reply #12 on: 04 January 2020, 06:54:13 »
A boarding pike is very different weapon than the kind used in formation ashore.

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Re: Space marines
« Reply #13 on: 04 January 2020, 15:36:52 »
A boarding pike is very different weapon than the kind used in formation ashore.

Better than hitting them with a fish

truetanker

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Re: Space marines
« Reply #14 on: 11 January 2020, 17:30:16 »
Better than hitting them with a fish

So you're saying throwing rotten food is considered a biological crime?

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Frabby

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Re: Space marines
« Reply #15 on: 12 January 2020, 02:02:21 »
In zero-g combat you want (need) recoilless weapons. That's a no-brainer. And blades for close combat.

That said, much of this discussion comes down to the unresolved issue how BT spaceships look inside. How roomy, compartmentalized etc. are the pressurized crew-accessible areas? Are they even fully pressurized in a combat alert situation? What does armor stand for? Etc. All of this makes all the difference in the world for boarding tactics.
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Hellraiser

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Re: Space marines
« Reply #16 on: 12 January 2020, 18:16:09 »
Pretty sure there is a piece of fiction in one of the books where they do mention Shot Guns which are less likely to damage the delicates of a ship or cause a hull breach.

I want to say its in the Operation:Serpent books but don't quote me on that.

Sonic Stunners (Ceres Crowd Buster for the Rifle version) & Melee Weapons (Vibros) are also mentioned.

Stunners are great for taking out unarmored crewman that you might need to put to work keeping the ship running after you take it.  (Supervised of course).

I would assume Concussion (Flash Bang) grenades are also useful in boarding as they are in any room breaching.

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BirdofPrey

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Re: Space marines
« Reply #17 on: 12 January 2020, 22:06:04 »
With the difficulties of moving around in 0G, I imagine grappling would end up being common, so a combat knife would be a key part of your kit rather than a just in case weapon.

I would also think everyone would fight in sealed gear all of the time.  Losing atmosphere to a hull breach wouldn't be the concern so much as the possibility of boarders just blowing open a hatch which WOULD evacuate all the air rapidly, and even without that, not wearing a helmet is a great way to inhale blood from injured comrades and opponents or spall from the small arms fire hitting the bulkheads.
« Last Edit: 12 January 2020, 22:10:54 by BirdofPrey »

VhenRa

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Re: Space marines
« Reply #18 on: 19 January 2020, 04:38:15 »
With the difficulties of moving around in 0G, I imagine grappling would end up being common, so a combat knife would be a key part of your kit rather than a just in case weapon.

Well, that depends a fair bit on the circumstances of a boarding operation. If you are doing a hard boarding, using the boarding craft rules, etc etc?

The enemy is likely to be still expending thrust.

Really, when you board you are gonna want to pick and choose your loadout depending on the tactical scenario and expected opposition.

truetanker

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Re: Space marines
« Reply #19 on: 19 January 2020, 10:26:37 »
Flash bangs and gel guns... followed by stun sticks and brass knuckles, in that order.

Heavier weapons for armored crunchies, finally that one Cybernetic that every crew has...

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Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: Space marines
« Reply #20 on: 21 January 2020, 05:39:31 »
  In a space battle, every ship would likely have all its crew suit up and drain the air from most of the ship to avoid sudden decompression due to breaches. Zero G would be normal operation, so everyone would be training in those conditions on a constant basis. Equalizing air pressure would also nullify the effects of flamers, gas, smoke, inferno, and sonic weapons.

  Most small arms can only do cosmetic damage to ship interiors -Keyboards and consoles would be similarly protected with ballistic screens, as weapons powerful enough to cause hull breaches would also send shards of armor and structure fragments flying through compartments at hypersonic speeds. Bullets would be the least of anyone's worries.

  Generic Marine Squad:
Armor: Marine combat suit, helmet with full A/V/Comms
1. Squad Leader- Blazer pistol x 2; Grenade loadout: Frag x 2, Flash x 2, Stun x 2; Vibro blade, Stunstick, Grapple rod
2. Marine- Blazer rifle; Grenades: Frag x 4, Stun x 2; Vibro blade, Grapple rod
3. Marine- Blazer rifle; Grenades: Frag x 4, Stun x 2; Vibro blade, Grapple rod
4. Marine- Blazer rifle; Grenades: Frag x 4, Stun x 2; Vibro blade, Grapple rod
5. Marine- Blazer rifle; Grenades: Frag x 4, Stun x 2; Vibro blade, Grapple rod
6. Grenadier- Grenade Launcher; GL Ammo: Frag x 5, Stun x 5, Anti-vehicle x 2; Vibro blade, Grapple rod
7. Sapper- Blazer pistol, Demolition kit, C8 x 10, Satchel charge x 2; Vibro Axe, Grapple rod

 Each would also carry Medipac, Med kit, and the squad would have 1 Advanced med kit.

  I employed the above loadouts in campaign for both Marines and Jump Infantry, with considerable success. The Jump Inf primarily used Auto rifles and the Grenadier alternated as the Machine Gunner, with the other Riflemen acting as mules to carry more ammo. The design is based off the WW2 German Rifle/MG squad, which was later adopted by most modern armies, with the squad dividing into two teams with the squad leader in the center directing fire.
  The vibro axe was surprisingly effective in cutting through bulkheads, walls and floors, without alerting the defenders as a breaching charge would have.

 
« Last Edit: 14 March 2020, 22:21:17 by Mohammed As`Zaman Bey »

Daryk

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Re: Space marines
« Reply #21 on: 23 March 2020, 18:39:24 »
To be a little closer to TM legal, I'd give the Squad Leader and Sapper Blazer Rifles too.

Sharpnel

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Re: Space marines
« Reply #22 on: 24 March 2020, 00:28:27 »
No...  not the Warhammer 40k.
I mean the crazy guys that breach Jumpships, carry out boarding actions and ship defences.
The two examples from TRO: 3085 lists laser pistols and Blazer rifles.
But from a role playing perspective - how would you kit out your space jarheads?

Is there an argument for lasers over slug throwers in space and around delicate bulkheads?
What about needlers? Surely they’re best.
And hand to hand? How would you equip?

Anyone got any examples of ATOW style marines?
If you're using slug throwers on a dropship/jumpship. I would make sure the bullets are frangible so that the shatter on impact with a hard surface. Needlers would work well in most combat in side space vessels as long as the intended target is not heavily armored.
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Draven0019

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Re: Space marines
« Reply #23 on: 09 May 2020, 06:28:38 »
reading this topic has reminded me of the Black watch marines taking back the Lion class warship during the exodus, wander what they used?

Boarding Pods and Nukes?
would have found them boring by that time.

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Re: Space marines
« Reply #24 on: 10 July 2020, 22:44:55 »
Several fiction pieces have addressed the issue of hull breaches.  Basically, it's something of a non-issue. 

Given the diameter of a standard bullet hole and the air pressure inside, and remembering that the ship is made of materials intended to keep micrometeorites from hulling it constantly, at most there might be a pinprick leak from a bullet strike, and the internal pressure wouldn't be enough to create a holovid-style hurricane of air pressure sucking everyone out of the compartment.  It'd be more like in the BSG pilot, where a Raptor was breached, and they just slapped a patch over it.

If you wanted to minimize structural damage, of course use needlers, or rifles with flechette ammo.  Or, use sonic stunners.  They're listed in the RPG equipment guides, but nobody ever uses them in the fiction.  Great to have if your foes have armored pressure suits (which the needler ammo will just bounce off of), but aren't equipped with auditory baffles.  Toss a sonic-stunner grenade down the corridor and incapacitate your foes without putting the ship's systems at risk.  (Explosive decompression isn't really much of a risk, but on a ship, there are plenty of items that will react badly to being shot.)

For hand to hand, use vibrodaggers.  In tight quarters, you don't want a blade you need to swing around a lot, so vibrokatanas and vibroaxes are out.

Not quite the same, but Tyra Myraborg did some damage with a hull breach. Marines with magnetized boots and demolitions could rip into the hull in serious ways.

I have smiled at the idea of a scenario with mechs with magnetized treads going to battle on the hull of a warship in zero g.

idea weenie

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Re: Space marines
« Reply #25 on: 11 July 2020, 02:26:31 »
  Not quite the same, but Tyra Myraborg did some damage with a hull breach. Marines with magnetized boots and demolitions could rip into the hull in serious ways. 

Wasn't that where she slammed her fighter into a weak spot on the Warship (i.e. like the A-Wing in RotJ)?

For infantry and breaching systems, that relies upon the target vessel not maneuvering.  Imagine the boarding troops on the side of the Warship, and the Warship suddenly performs and end over end flip.  If they are not secured, they could be made to drift loose, and if those troops don't have a way to grab back onto the Warship they are stuck.

If they are 50 meters from the center of rotation, and the warship is performing an end over end flip taking a full minute, that is only about .014Gs.

But imagine if the Warship decides to go to full thrust (1.5 Gs).  They are on the side of the Warship, and suddenly they are on the side of a metal mountain, with the local gravity being effectively 1.5 Gs.  If they come loose the Warship will pull away from them easily.

The boarding troops would be better off sneaking onboard the ship, rather than performing an in-combat action.  The other option would be only boarding after the target vessel's engines are disabled/destroyed, and preferentially with a friend telling the Warship to hold still or be destroyed.

Jumpships could still be boarded though.

  I have smiled at the idea of a scenario with mechs with magnetized treads going to battle on the hull of a warship in zero g. 

There are rules for Mechs fighting in Zero-G, but Mechs in that environment are very clumsy.

One key detail is that if the ship accelerates, the Mechs are suddenly 'standing' on the side of a metal wall, with nothing to hold them on except their metal feet (and the Mech's leg structure).

Let alone that Mech weaponry is not designed for space ranges, and Mechs are basically target practice for the opposing side.

Now what you could do is have a space station being boarded by a Mech-using unit, and the defenders try to protect with their own forces.  But any missed shot has a chance of putting holes in the space station's hull.  Of course the attacker would be wondering why the space station hasn't surrendered yet, since the attacking Mech force could just shoot at the hull anywhere to encourage the defenders to surrender.

Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: Space marines
« Reply #26 on: 11 July 2020, 05:00:34 »
Wasn't that where she slammed her fighter into a weak spot on the Warship (i.e. like the A-Wing in RotJ)?
  Ironically, the "weak spot" was the bridge, which should have been buried deep inside a real warship, along with any crucial components. They probably still had picture windows to enjoy the view, too.


Quote
But imagine if the Warship decides to go to full thrust (1.5 Gs).  They are on the side of the Warship, and suddenly they are on the side of a metal mountain, with the local gravity being effectively 1.5 Gs.  If they come loose the Warship will pull away from them easily.
  Ship could easily pull 4 Gs in a maneuver and fling any unwanted passengers into the void.

Quote
The boarding troops would be better off sneaking onboard the ship, rather than performing an in-combat action.  The other option would be only boarding after the target vessel's engines are disabled/destroyed, and preferentially with a friend telling the Warship to hold still or be destroyed.
  I've seen (and used, in other games) special boarding vessels designed like massive darts that would breach armor, tunnel in, and disgorge troops inside the target.

Quote
There are rules for Mechs fighting in Zero-G, but Mechs in that environment are very clumsy.
  That doesn't preclude 'Mechs from being fitted with maneuver packs, although most people envision mech stomping around with magnetic slip-ons holding them to a surface, yet I can also see the use of grapples, cables and even hand-held propulsion devices.

Quote
Let alone that Mech weaponry is not designed for space ranges, and Mechs are basically target practice for the opposing side.
  Mech and aero weapons are identical as they function identically in atmosphere. The difference is that aero and space vehicles have different targeting systems. Years ago, I proposed a 'Mech with aero targeting systems plus warship armor (which gram for gram is far superior than any armor available, yet on an average warship it is like a layer of paint...).

Quote
Now what you could do is have a space station being boarded by a Mech-using unit, and the defenders try to protect with their own forces.  But any missed shot has a chance of putting holes in the space station's hull.  Of course the attacker would be wondering why the space station hasn't surrendered yet, since the attacking Mech force could just shoot at the hull anywhere to encourage the defenders to surrender.

  If the defenders know you are trying to capture it, they can force you to fight for every compartment, as it would cost you far more money and time to repair it. BTW, as a defender in space, I always have everybody in vac suits and all compartments decompressed so they take less damage from battle, so putting a few more holes in the hull is expected. A space station would a city that 'Mechs dare not enter.