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Author Topic: Confounded by Customization  (Read 5024 times)

Wildonion

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Confounded by Customization
« on: 24 June 2013, 22:55:53 »
Hello forum-goers! I have been given the unenviable task of taking care of customization and repairs in my current BattleTech campaign and I have run into some trouble with the customization part of the equation. Until now I have been relying on MegaMek HQ to handle the math for me, but after what seemed to be some long build times and easy target numbers, I decided to crack open Strategic Operations and try and handle things by pen and paper, to get a better feel for the system.

The goal
Modify a Hellspawn HSN-10G with the following:
  • Replace Light PPC with a Clan ER Medium Laser. (A)
  • Replace MML 7 and ammo with a Clan ER Medium Laser. (B)
  • Replace MML 7 and ammo with a medium pulse laser. (B)
  • Add 5 double heat sinks. (C)
  • Add 1 Medium Pulse Laser. (D)
  • Add 1 jump jet. (D)
  • Add 1 Guardian ECM Suite. (D)
  • Replace Light Ferro Fibrous armor with Standard armor and increase armor amount. (D)
  • Shift around Endo Steel to accommodate the new spacing requirements. (?)
From MegaMek HQ, I was told that the job would require 19,680 minutes and a single 7+ with an Elite Tech who can work with Clan equipment. What I worked things out for myself, I found that I only needed 7,410 minutes. 1,235 for all of the times listed on the replacement tables, multiplied by 3 for a class D refit, and multiplied by 2 for being a custom job.
  • 125 minutes to add 25 armor points to the chassis.
  • 480 minutes to add the two Clan ER Medium Lasers and two Medium Pulse Lasers.
  • 60 Minutes for the jump jet.
  • 120 minutes to add a Guardian ECM Suite.
  • 450 Minutes to add five double heat sinks.

So where am I going wrong with the numbers? Is MegeMek HQ giving me the right time for all of this or are my own calculations correct? What kind of time does it take to shift around the critical spaces for the Endo Steel and what level of refit is that? Do I roll for each individual change separately or is it really just a single roll of 7+? If so, then how the heck would it be so low in the first place?

Thanks for wading through all of that. Hopefully you can help me to find out where I am going wrong and I can help get my team ready for their next mission. From what I hear, we are going to need all the help we can get!

Beazle

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Re: Confounded by Customization
« Reply #1 on: 25 June 2013, 01:15:42 »
Are you properly calculating the time for removing the equipment to be replaced?

Wildonion

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Re: Confounded by Customization
« Reply #2 on: 25 June 2013, 01:37:02 »
Neg, I hadn't factored that in. Is it calculated like when you salvage an item? I also rechecked the rules and I realized that the TN from MMHQ didn't include the +4 penalty for Clan-tech on an IS chassis.

Beazle

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Re: Confounded by Customization
« Reply #3 on: 25 June 2013, 12:38:34 »
Neg, I hadn't factored that in. Is it calculated like when you salvage an item? I also rechecked the rules and I realized that the TN from MMHQ didn't include the +4 penalty for Clan-tech on an IS chassis.

I'm not certain, but I think it's just like salvage.

Also, I'm still not certain, but I think there is a check box in settings that enables/disables that penalty.

Orion

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Re: Confounded by Customization
« Reply #4 on: 03 July 2013, 16:39:26 »
What kind of time does it take to shift around the critical spaces for the Endo Steel and what level of refit is that?

I have no idea what the actual rule is here, but....

Endo steel is what the frame is made out of.  It isn't just in the arm location or just in the torso - it is spread throughout, and there is no moving it around.  If you take ES out of the leg, that doesn't make more room, it means the leg is gone.  Same thing for the various armor types. ES and FF taking up critical space is a game abstraction thing to supposedly balance construction.  It has nothing to do with where stuff is located.  Therefore, it should take zero time to move it.
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Jayof9s

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Re: Confounded by Customization
« Reply #5 on: 13 August 2013, 09:15:25 »
Here's the official answer for moving around ES/FF/TSM criticals: http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,10776.0.html

Essentially they're 1 step 'easier' than installing, so moving those ES criticals will make that an E level refit. Agree/disagree/house rule as you will, but that's the official call.  ;)

On another note; if you do discover an issue with the MekHQ customization calculations (for time or rolls), make sure to report them on the MekHQ sourceforge bug tracker so that fixes can be made.
« Last Edit: 13 August 2013, 09:17:32 by Jayof9s »

Hellraiser

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Re: Confounded by Customization
« Reply #6 on: 28 August 2013, 10:39:35 »
Yeah, as the guy that asked that question, I wasn't thrilled with the response.

Mostly because of things like I mentioned like the Guillotine-3N to 5M.
Its always been a "swap the LL for ERLL" type thing, but now, since the ES isn't in the same crit space it suddenly can't be done in the field.

I'd have prefered them all be "Move a component" which is IIRC, class D & able to be done in the field.

As for the OP.  I'd suggest not moving the ES & finding an alternate customization option.
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Wildonion

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Re: Confounded by Customization
« Reply #7 on: 28 August 2013, 13:47:09 »
Hey look, my old thread lives again! xD

Jayof9s

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Re: Confounded by Customization
« Reply #8 on: 28 August 2013, 13:53:05 »
Yeah, I admittedly missed that it was several weeks silent when I posted, though it hadn't exactly been resolved and I have a personal interest in finding issues with MekHQ as a dev for the project.  ;)

Papabees

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Re: Confounded by Customization
« Reply #9 on: 29 August 2013, 13:22:00 »
I have to say i think some of these rules are the worst published from the perspective of mirroring the fiction. There are stories all the time of techs throwing together what ever makeshift forces they can. The issue was always one of supply. The way these rules are written unless your an Elite level tech things like this are nigh impossible, which was really no fun.

Jayof9s

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Re: Confounded by Customization
« Reply #10 on: 29 August 2013, 13:37:15 »
I have to say i think some of these rules are the worst published from the perspective of mirroring the fiction. There are stories all the time of techs throwing together what ever makeshift forces they can. The issue was always one of supply. The way these rules are written unless your an Elite level tech things like this are nigh impossible, which was really no fun.

Actually, if you don't have a good tech, sure you can expect to fail the roll which doubles the time required (and the quality level is reduced, which does make sense - if you're doing a complex refit with a less than stellar tech, something is likely to go wrong) but then you don't roll again. So 1440 minutes becomes 2880 but the job still gets done.
« Last Edit: 29 August 2013, 13:41:10 by Jayof9s »

Papabees

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Re: Confounded by Customization
« Reply #11 on: 30 August 2013, 14:08:47 »
I guess "complex refit" varies in definition from one person to another. When we played in our campaign, if a M laser was destroyed and we wanted to replace it with another medium laser with an average tech, unless we took extra time there was about a 50% chance of failure.

Jayof9s

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Re: Confounded by Customization
« Reply #12 on: 30 August 2013, 14:19:07 »
I guess "complex refit" varies in definition from one person to another. When we played in our campaign, if a M laser was destroyed and we wanted to replace it with another medium laser with an average tech, unless we took extra time there was about a 50% chance of failure.

That would fall under a repair and not really a refit/customization.

And my take on the repair rules is that they sort of expect you to spend extra time, have really good techs and/or assign multiple teams to a job in order to have an easy time with the repair, if not it comes down to luck. But as always, if it doesn't work at your table, don't use it and come up with something else. If anything, I've found that a decently supplied command can usually repair almost *too* quickly with the rules (i.e. get completely mauled and be back to 100% in 2-3 days), but YMMV.

Wildonion

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Re: Confounded by Customization
« Reply #13 on: 30 August 2013, 22:33:58 »
In the campaign that I originally raised this question for, that did turn out to be the case. With 2-3 days we could get a lot done and that was before we got lucky and snagged a fully stocked maintenance facility. That additional -2 gave us a hefty boost to finishing operations on the planet in question in record time. Of course, then it was on to the next battlefield, but that is the merc life.

theagent

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Re: Confounded by Customization
« Reply #14 on: 09 March 2015, 08:33:24 »
Yeah, as the guy that asked that question, I wasn't thrilled with the response.

Mostly because of things like I mentioned like the Guillotine-3N to 5M.
Its always been a "swap the LL for ERLL" type thing, but now, since the ES isn't in the same crit space it suddenly can't be done in the field.

I'd have prefered them all be "Move a component" which is IIRC, class D & able to be done in the field.

As for the OP.  I'd suggest not moving the ES & finding an alternate customization option.

I would have thought that was already covered under class credits: "...Players may also change armor quantity and/or distribution, move a component, or add ammunition or a heat sink." (SO, p. 188, emphasis added).  That seems crystal clear to me, so I don't see the need for any additional clarification.

Hellraiser

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Re: Confounded by Customization
« Reply #15 on: 11 March 2015, 19:48:18 »
I would have thought that was already covered under class credits: "...Players may also change armor quantity and/or distribution, move a component, or add ammunition or a heat sink." (SO, p. 188, emphasis added).  That seems crystal clear to me, so I don't see the need for any additional clarification.
I agree.  But not everyone at the table did & when posted I got a different answer by TPTB.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Col Toda

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Re: Confounded by Customization
« Reply #16 on: 20 March 2015, 04:10:55 »
The +4 difficulty for Mix tech Clan IS chassis does it go down any at the date Mixed tech becomes Advanced after a certain date stated in the prototype TRO.?
 

Hellraiser

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Re: Confounded by Customization
« Reply #17 on: 20 March 2015, 12:26:41 »
Not sure but wouldn't think so since all that does is shift stuff from Experimental to Advanced right?
Its not the one that goes from Advanced to Tourney Legal?
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Go For The Throat

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Re: Confounded by Customization
« Reply #18 on: 20 March 2015, 18:46:10 »
The +4 difficulty for Mix tech Clan IS chassis does it go down any at the date Mixed tech becomes Advanced after a certain date stated in the prototype TRO.?

I do not think it would, but one would think the modifier would be reduced, or removed depending on the era. By 3145, you would think it would no longer exist, with how prevalent Clan Tech is.
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