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Author Topic: Where Do You Keep Your Toilet Paper?  (Read 2989 times)

Goose

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Where Do You Keep Your Toilet Paper?
« on: 27 October 2022, 17:51:08 »
Once a year i try to recreate the opening chapter of Team Yankee, what with the "re-attached" lances, allowing escorting anti-aircraft guns to get memos on where to move next, or where their next meal is coming from. we all seem to know what a company is, but we are reliant on boilerman to tell us something about, anything about, the cargo trucks moving all the tons of armor replacement?

Part of the confusion is how bad I am with the lingo: The military police are your pickets? the guy whom chooses where the mess tent is also getting the latrine, and foxholes, dug? Is this a battalion-level issue? What if you are a merc unit that's not large enough to meet said level?  :(

I have questions …
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Daryk

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Re: Where Do You Keep Your Toilet Paper?
« Reply #1 on: 27 October 2022, 18:10:17 »
Let's just say your S-4 MATTERS...  8)

Hellraiser

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Re: Where Do You Keep Your Toilet Paper?
« Reply #2 on: 28 October 2022, 19:35:57 »
S4 (AKA...Supply & Logistics)

Quote
What are the Battalion S4 duties, responsibilities, and job description? In layman’s terms, the Battalion S4 is responsible for the supply, transportation, logistics, maintenance and budget issues within a battalion. In short, they are the Battalion Logistics Officer.

To keep things simple, the Battalion S4 is part of the Battalion Commander’s staff. They work directly for the Battalion XO and are senior rated by the Battalion Commander.

Quote
Army S4 sections are typically led by commissioned officers, with senior and junior enlisted personnel, frequently called supply sergeants, handling most daily tasks. A major function of the staff officer in charge of a battalion’s S4 section is to efficiently manage the battalion’s budget. Additionally, Army S4 officers provide guidance and direction to the company level supply sergeants within their battalions. Battalion S4 officers also account for and properly maintain all assigned equipment and make sure their battalions are deployment-ready

For your other question, if your at the company level you normally have a Supply Sgt for barracks needs at the company level & Battalion S4 will support you on a field mission.
At least that is what I recall.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Goose

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Re: Where Do You Keep Your Toilet Paper?
« Reply #3 on: 29 October 2022, 15:31:01 »
… While I've got you here: How do you feel about letting three, 3-ton BasicHQs equal the good, 7-ton AdvHQ, as long as they aren't moving, and within [blank] hexes of all three?

The normal 7-tonner is becoming something hard to build a nice, light motor pool around.
Goose
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Daryk

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Re: Where Do You Keep Your Toilet Paper?
« Reply #4 on: 29 October 2022, 15:37:19 »
How is that becoming hard?  Any Heavy APC can swap both platoons for the six tons of extra comms gear needed (Combat Vehicles get one ton free with their controls).

Goose

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Re: Where Do You Keep Your Toilet Paper?
« Reply #5 on: 29 October 2022, 16:36:38 »
I've got a fairly-high target ground-speed …

 >:D
Goose
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Daryk

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Re: Where Do You Keep Your Toilet Paper?
« Reply #6 on: 29 October 2022, 16:46:27 »
Then use a hover? ???

Failure16

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Re: Where Do You Keep Your Toilet Paper?
« Reply #7 on: 30 October 2022, 02:18:06 »
Just to add on to what Hellraiser and Daryk have already said: your logistical staff handle what you seek. In US military terms, that is indeed the S-4 for battalions/squadrons and brigades/regiments. For companies/troops, that will be a combination of your supply section along with the XO and senior enlisted advisors (e.g. first sergeants) and at the platoon level, your platoon sergeants under the tutelage of the aforementioned company supply sergeant/section. If a squad ever operated on its own, the senior team leader would likely be tapped for the job (but that isn't something that happens at the level under question).

Military police are not pickets. They control EPWs (prisoners), secure routes (like state/highway patrol in law enforcement, but with a focus on security and integrity of the route and the vital military traffic, not traffic law enforcement), and act as police in a military context, especially in garrison. Pickets--not really a US military term in common usage--can be any element that is providing some aspect of security forward of a given force's main line of defense.

(In Team Yankee, that was indeed a divisional cavalry squadron; in real life in the Fulda Gap, say, that would have been the 11th ACR.)

Since I am more familiar with how an armored cavalry squadron/regiment does things at such a level, I'll use that as an example (but if you want to know how an infantry company does things, you can extrapolate easily from this).

Everything a US military unit does (any service, at any given time, but especially the US Army combat arms) is controlled by the Operations Order. That includes where things like the logistical units will go, where the TOC will be located, who will do the site reconnaissance before investing a location, where units will be positioned for defense, how much supplies they will get and how and when and where they will get them. Things like latrines and exact positioning of tents will be according to SOPs and local lower-level leadership initiative. I think this is the real answer to your question. Boilerman does not have to tell you, either: your higher headquarters will tell you everything you need to know. It's just that sometimes you will have to drag it out of them.  ;D

The commander (of the squadron or regiment as desired) will choose a general location for the command post (CP, but usually called the TOC for Tactical Operations Center) which will effectively define the unit's "rear area". The operations staff (S-3) will be responsible for setting up the actual TOC site, while the S-4 sets up the logistical element (which will become the "______" Security Area). The S-1, -2, -5-. and -6 kinda hang out and follow the Three Shop around until they stop moving ( ;) ). The S-3 and -4's senior NCOs will be setting up things like the chow hall, and the Unit Sanitation personnel (accorded those honors through an arcane decision-making process that is opaque to all who finds its gaze cast upon them) are responsible for setting up latrines or slit-trenches at every level (down to platoon, if the platoons are operating in their own patrol bases).

Unit or Element commanders/leaders choose areas to be protected and the noncommissioned leaders are actually in charge of digging fighting positions ("foxholes"), which are then checked (sometimes, often enough as time allows) by the commissioned officers.

Again, as stated (by Hellraiser), each level gets its data and goods from the next level up: Brigades supply battalions which supply companies, which supply platoons, and platoons supply their squads. That goes for orders, positions, and supply (of all classes, I-X)

If you are a merc unit of one, you still have to do everything that needs to be done for a regiment, you just have a fraction of the requirements. You need to know where your supplies and coming from, and how and when to get them. You need to know how you will get to where you need to be, and what to do when you get there. You need to know the chain of command, and how they will interact with you. You need to know how and where to take care of personal hygiene. It's just that you have to do that yourself. The good news is many adults can do all that, you just have to consider that someone may be trying to kill you at various points along the way.

A mercenary unit of any given size will simply have to get the job done with the personnel on hand, be them the equivalent of a lance, or a company, or a short division. The smaller the unit, the more hats its personnel will wear, just like a normal civilian company. All the facets of running a business or a brigade apply to a company (be that three people in an office, or a hundred sleepy-eyed killers in the woods).

If you need something fast for your Jump TOC (mobile headquarters vehicle), can't you just use a Karnov? It's got seven tonnes of capacity of the assembly line...? But a Heavy Hover APC would draw less attention and be functionally as fast (which is ridiculous, but, well, BattleTech).
« Last Edit: 30 October 2022, 20:39:30 by Failure16 »
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth, 
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.
When I needed something good.                                            One day we'll reveal the truth,
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.        That one will die before he gets there.

But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra
--A. Duritz

Daryk

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Re: Where Do You Keep Your Toilet Paper?
« Reply #8 on: 30 October 2022, 08:04:02 »
A Karnov has a slight edge in speed, but otherwise agreed!  8)

Hellraiser

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Re: Where Do You Keep Your Toilet Paper?
« Reply #9 on: 31 October 2022, 00:44:56 »
The basic Introtech Karnov has exactly 6 tons of cargo space so it can fill your needs & moves 11/17

Though the 3058 model has MGs (Convert to AMS or ECM?) & 7 tons which would leave you with 1 ton extra which is great since you want space for the Command Squad/Group in the actual HQ vehicle.

Using a Karnov in that roll to have the CO stay mobile is a solid option for avoiding terrain issues.  (And its like having your own Shield "Bus" like Colson)
Heavy Hover APC or Blizzard Hover would work too depending on the era.
And finally, the Maxim-I with its 12 tons of space can let you load up a C3M, 6 Tons of Comms Gear (+1 integral), & a Command Squad & truly be a mobile command unit with a good amount of armor protecting it.

I haven't thought about this in the past or anything  ;)
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

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Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

SCC

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Re: Where Do You Keep Your Toilet Paper?
« Reply #10 on: 01 November 2022, 03:16:53 »
How is that becoming hard?  Any Heavy APC can swap both platoons for the six tons of extra comms gear needed (Combat Vehicles get one ton free with their controls).
But does that actually count for the purposes we're discussing? I've got a feeling that the 1 ton of free comms gear has a lot of asterisks attached to it to prevent things like this.

Though the 3058 model has MGs (Convert to AMS or ECM?) & 7 tons which would leave you with 1 ton extra which is great since you want space for the Command Squad/Group in the actual HQ vehicle.

Using a Karnov in that roll to have the CO stay mobile is a solid option for avoiding terrain issues.
No need for room for the actual command team, that's presumably covered by the weight of the equipment. And there's also presumably a VTOL version of the Heavy X APC's, in fact might be safe to assume that there's one for every vehicle motive type.


Daryk

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Re: Where Do You Keep Your Toilet Paper?
« Reply #11 on: 01 November 2022, 03:32:37 »
But does that actually count for the purposes we're discussing? I've got a feeling that the 1 ton of free comms gear has a lot of asterisks attached to it to prevent things like this.
*snip*
Tech Manual, page 212 has no asterisks...  ^-^
Quote
BattleMechs, ProtoMechs, Combat Vehicles and fighters of all kinds automatically possess a basic amount of communications
equipment (equivalent to 1 ton) as part of their cockpit and control systems.

Hellraiser

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Re: Where Do You Keep Your Toilet Paper?
« Reply #12 on: 05 November 2022, 10:59:41 »
No need for room for the actual command team, that's presumably covered by the weight of the equipment. And there's also presumably a VTOL version of the Heavy X APC's, in fact might be safe to assume that there's one for every vehicle motive type.
I don't think there is actual "free" cargo space w/ the Comms gear.

That said, nothing in the rules says there HAS to be a "Command Team".

The 2 Man Karnov Crew is essentially "getting it done".

I just like to think of there being a proper HQ Squad of the CO & analysts all running around w/ papers & such & for that I prefer to have a spare ton.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Daryk

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Re: Where Do You Keep Your Toilet Paper?
« Reply #13 on: 05 November 2022, 11:02:50 »
Communications equipment comes with extra crew unless it's in a 'mech (Tech Manual, page 212 refers).

EDIT: Missing word.

Hellraiser

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Re: Where Do You Keep Your Toilet Paper?
« Reply #14 on: 05 November 2022, 11:06:36 »
Thanks, Good to know !
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Daryk

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Re: Where Do You Keep Your Toilet Paper?
« Reply #15 on: 05 November 2022, 11:14:23 »
Happy to help!  :thumbsup:

boilerman

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Re: Where Do You Keep Your Toilet Paper?
« Reply #16 on: 05 November 2022, 22:12:05 »
I hope you keep the toilet paper beside the toilet.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Where Do You Keep Your Toilet Paper?
« Reply #17 on: 23 November 2022, 10:46:08 »
To chime in with others . . . yeah, SOP which is usually established in manuals and individual unit memos for any changes.

To get a idea, look at the list on this link . . . https://armypubs.army.mil/ProductMaps/PubForm/FM.aspx

FM 3-14 must be a new one, FM 3-09 was the bible during my time in . . . might still have a outdated copy around.

Btw, this is part of why the Puzzle Palace exists.
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Daryk

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Re: Where Do You Keep Your Toilet Paper?
« Reply #18 on: 23 November 2022, 16:40:02 »
The Puzzle Palace is up at Fort Meade.  I think you mean the Five-Sided PowerPoint Collider...  :D

Failure16

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Re: Where Do You Keep Your Toilet Paper?
« Reply #19 on: 23 November 2022, 16:47:15 »
I hope you keep the toilet paper beside the toilet.

Nah, on deployment you best keep it in whatever passes for your assault pack.


Great link, CW.

The Puzzle Palace is up at Fort Meade.  I think you mean the Five-Sided PowerPoint Collider...  :D

Yeah, NSA is the Rubik's Cube of insanity (or is it inanity?). But it's the buildings across the street where the cool cats work (NSGA).
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth, 
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.
When I needed something good.                                            One day we'll reveal the truth,
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.        That one will die before he gets there.

But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra
--A. Duritz

Daryk

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Re: Where Do You Keep Your Toilet Paper?
« Reply #20 on: 23 November 2022, 16:58:01 »
NSGAs were converted to NIOCs a while ago.  And NSG was in Ops 3, literally one of their buildings...  ^-^

Failure16

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Re: Where Do You Keep Your Toilet Paper?
« Reply #21 on: 23 November 2022, 18:37:37 »
Like I said, the cool cats were in NSGA. I don't know who works their now, brother.  ;)

And back in the late 90s, NSGA was across the street, not in the actual mirror-ball. Sure, it was part of the campus, if you will. But the actual structures were in no way, shape, or form linked.

EDIT: That was a long time ago; maybe my memory is warped, since I never actually worked there (I was a kid). I could tell you more about First Army Headquarters building, for instance. Which is entirely irrelevant.
« Last Edit: 23 November 2022, 18:40:16 by Failure16 »
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth, 
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.
When I needed something good.                                            One day we'll reveal the truth,
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.        That one will die before he gets there.

But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra
--A. Duritz

Daryk

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Re: Where Do You Keep Your Toilet Paper?
« Reply #22 on: 23 November 2022, 18:56:29 »
NSG HQ was on Fort Meade proper... I think you're referring to CTF 1060 these days...  ^-^

Failure16

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Re: Where Do You Keep Your Toilet Paper?
« Reply #23 on: 23 November 2022, 19:55:21 »
The move of NSG headquarters to Meade happened in '96. But NSGA Fort Meade (the largest such in the Navy) was not that. You, of course, are entirely correct about the change to NIOC Maryland, which apparently happened in '05--way, way past any [tangential] involvement on my part. Hell, now it's CWG-6. Times, they are a-changin'.  No matter; good intel, and I appreciate the heads-up!

Fun Fact: Montel Williams was an officer at NSGA Fort Meade back in the day.
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth, 
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.
When I needed something good.                                            One day we'll reveal the truth,
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.        That one will die before he gets there.

But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra
--A. Duritz

Daryk

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Re: Where Do You Keep Your Toilet Paper?
« Reply #24 on: 23 November 2022, 20:02:04 »
The original HQ wasn't across the street, though...  ^-^

Failure16

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Re: Where Do You Keep Your Toilet Paper?
« Reply #25 on: 24 November 2022, 09:56:58 »
By "HQ" do you mean NSG Headquarters, or the building that NSGA Fort Meade was in?

I'll give you best on this: you have more recent, and actual professional knowledge of the NSA campus. I also may be conflating a glib colloquialism ("No, we work across the street") with thirty-year old memories. I'll ask the primary I know who worked there on-and-off over thirty years for my own edification.

Thanks for the clarification, though!
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth, 
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.
When I needed something good.                                            One day we'll reveal the truth,
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.        That one will die before he gets there.

But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra
--A. Duritz

Daryk

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Re: Where Do You Keep Your Toilet Paper?
« Reply #26 on: 24 November 2022, 09:58:18 »
NSG HQ, yes.  It was across town, though I never went there.

Failure16

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Re: Where Do You Keep Your Toilet Paper?
« Reply #27 on: 24 November 2022, 16:23:22 »
Received confirmation: NSGA Fort Meade was a block or so away from NSA proper, in the old barracks, sandwiched between the Air Force and Army intel units (1st-3rd Floors). But the main NSA building could be seen easily, which squares with my recollection. I know little about NSG HQ, since that was the year I went to Benning for my sojourn into insanity.

Back on topic, I'm sure all these buildings had or continue to have toilet paper. Whether there was an SOP covering its tactical location, I am not sure.
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth, 
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.
When I needed something good.                                            One day we'll reveal the truth,
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.        That one will die before he gets there.

But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra
--A. Duritz

Daryk

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Re: Where Do You Keep Your Toilet Paper?
« Reply #28 on: 24 November 2022, 16:28:04 »
That sounds like OPS 3...

Failure16

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Re: Where Do You Keep Your Toilet Paper?
« Reply #29 on: 24 November 2022, 18:07:06 »
I'm not saying it wasn't, and I am saying you may be correct. But I'm also saying that whatever that building's nomenclature is, it is, colloquially, "across the street" from what the public considers "NSA" (that being the [pair-plus of] mirror-glass building[s ]) at 9800 Savage Rd.

EDIT: You are right, Daryk, OPS3 is or was a white building about two blocks south of the main campus, but within sight of it.


Apropos of nothing (but I hate to waste research once it is done, which is why I regard page count for a research paper to be the merest of guidelines  ::) ), I found that NSA's location was a salve to [at the time, 1955] atomic attack, the imagined target being D.C.:

https://mht.maryland.gov/secure/medusa/PDF/AnneArundel/AA-34-5.pdf

Page 4 of that interesting document talks about the sites. So far as I can tell, the old barracks where the intel activities such as NSGA were in Buildings 9804-5, which may very well be OPS 3.


And thus concludes our mutual descent into off-topic minutia. Thanks for playing along, audience! You all get a free pat on the rear end on the way out of the auditorium. Which is thataways ----------->
« Last Edit: 24 November 2022, 18:35:03 by Failure16 »
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth, 
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.
When I needed something good.                                            One day we'll reveal the truth,
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.        That one will die before he gets there.

But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra
--A. Duritz

 

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