(Answered) Posting a question about a rule.

[FedComGirl]

Hello,

Please forgive me for posting this here but I'm not really sure how to ask a question. I'd like to know if a rule for one thing could be applied to another that does the same in the fluff but isn't allowed by the rules. Applying that rule wouldn't change others but it would allow players to play as the units are presented in the fluff.

How do I ask without eliminating the chance of the ruling being made official?

[Chunga]

Huh!??!

[FedComGirl]

Can the rules for dropping and picking up physical weapons be applied to mechs that have hand held weapons as stated in their fluff? They're both technically mounted in the mechs arms but are really held in the mech's hands. It would allow the mechs to be playable as fluffed but the hand held weapons wouldn't be truly modular. Other mechs wouldn't be able to just pick them up and use them just like they couldn't pick up and use physical weapons unless they have/had a weapon that matches its tonnage and critical slots.

Yes I know that wouldn't match the hand held construction rules, but those are truly modular weapons that can be used by any mech that can lift them. I also know that applying those rules wouldn't match the lifting rules either. However Physical Weapons technically violate those by being used by a single hand, being heavier than the arm's 5% maximum lift capacity, and don't require heat sinks to be included in their tonnage. They can do that by being "technically" mounted to the mech. Couldn't the same rules be applied to the old fluffed hand held weapons? I would think that it would make sense and it really wouldn't change tournament games any as the rules for picking up and dropping physical weapons are optional.

I could go on and say more about how's and why's the physical weapons rules should be allowed for some hand helds and give examples on how they bend the rules but I don't want to risk not being able too legally.

[Chunga]

I think this falls squarely in the realm of "if it works at your table, have at it."

[Chunga]

I can't find it right now, but I know someone asked Herb about handheld melee weapons and I thought he said a resounding "NO!" It might be in the Ask the Writers area.

[Chunga]

http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,1069.msg53994.html#msg53994

[FedComGirl]

Thanks. However a couple things Herb said go completely against Battletech history.

That handheld weapons as described by Tactical Operations are truly modular, and that the "pistol grips" shown on the classic Phoenix Hawk, Griffin, BattleMaster, and Caesar (among others) do not reflect truly modular handheld weapons, but hard-mounted (internalized) weapons cosmetically designed to appear as such.

The weapons used by those mechs are not truly modular. They are also not hard mounted by their ability to be dropped so their fists are free. The same as the Hatchetman, Axeman and others. 

And that handheld weapons may not include 'Mech melee weapons of any type.

I believe he's referring to building universal hand held weapons found in Tactical Operations, which would include melee weapons. Like a rifle with a bayonet.

Still, Tactical Operations does say that Physical "Melee" weapons are held in the mechs hands. There are certain exceptions but for the most part they are hand held.

Art does not trump game rules. If the Record Sheet shows a hand actuator present, it functions by the rules. Perhaps the weapon mount retracts back along thew forearm when not in use or when "locked back" to allow hand actuator use.

That may be true, however the rules in Tactical Operations do allow players to use those mechs with physical weapons as presented. Those rules state that physical weapons are carried in the mech's hands and that they can be dropped and even exchanged for others of the same weight. Those rules give mechs like the Hatchetman the exact same ability to drop its hand held weapon to use its hand that is fluffed for those mechs listed above. Shouldn't that rule apply to those mechs as well? It really wouldn't change the basic rules any but it would add to the feel of games using optional rules.

Otherwise how can the mech have a hand actuator if the hand is a dummy? If that is going to stay the official ruling doesn't that invalidate all the record sheets for mechs with weapons held in the mechs hands whether they're physical or not? After all the Nightsky's hatchet is built in and can't be dropped so the Hatchetman's hand would have to be a dummy hand. Since it isn't the others shouldn't be either. Right?

[Chunga]

Ok. You've asked about 40 questions here and presented a WALL O' TEXT.

Let's try to narrow down the issue to 1 question. First, what rules are you looking at in TO. What page and section are you talking about?

[FedComGirl]

The rules for Physical Weapons under Picking up Inanimate Objects, pages 92 and 93 and Dropping or Setting down Inanimate objects page 98. The Physical weapon part under Throwing Inanimate Objects on page 95 could apply to, although why one would throw a mech sized rifle, I don't know.

[FedComGirl]

Still wondering why the rules allowing mechs to drop and pick up physical weapons can't legally be applied to hand held weapons used by unseen and others.

[Chunga]

The hundreds of words you've written above are terribly vague.

What is it you exactly want to do? You want to be able to have a Hatchetman drop its hatchet?

[FedComGirl]

No, the Hatchetman can already drop it's hatchet using rules from Tactical Operations. I would like to know if there isn't any reason why those rules can't also be applied to the hand held weapons of certain mechs.

If a Hatchetman can drop it's "hand held" hatchet, or vibroblade, why can't the unseen Griffen drop it's "hand held" PPC? They both take internal crits, and use up weight. They're both operated by the mechs hands. But the Griffen can't drop it's PPC even under advanced optional rules. The Hatchetman can drop it's hatchet and pick up and use a vibroblade even though it doesn't have the power and coolant connetions the weapon would need. Why is that?

[Chunga]

I am sorry, but that simply is the limitation of the rule. I will point you back to my post from two months ago if you want the Griffin to drop its PPC:

I think this falls squarely in the realm of "if it works at your table, have at it."

[FedComGirl]

Yes and I plan to do just that on my table. But I'm still wondering why it can't be legal. I'm sorry. I just don't get it. The only difference between physical weapons and the unseen hand held weapons is that one is made to smack your opponent up close and the other at a distance. They both require a hand, internal slots, weight, heat sinks, can't be used by other mechs, and the rule would be optional and not effect standard level games.