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Author Topic: (Answered) DS/JS/WS/SS Non-Weapon Bay Limits & Organization  (Read 4360 times)

Bad_Syntax

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Here are all the rules I can find on non-weapon bays on dropships and larger craft:

TM, P196:  "On DropShips, however, transport bays—including those for fighters, BattleMechs and other units—must assign a minimum of 1 bay door each, to allow for entry and egress from the vessel.  For any given vessel, the maximum number of bay doors is equal to 7 plus the vessel’s total weight (in tons) divided by 50,000 (rounded up)."

TM, P239:  "Fighters, Small Craft and DropShips must separate any and all transport bays by type, but need not allocate them to equipment slots on the unit’s design."

TW, P239:  "Cargo: Part of the unit’s cargo sustains damage, determined randomly between general cargo bays and unit bays.  To determine the percentage of cargo destroyed, divide the amount of damage that caused the critical hit by twice the vessel’s SI. Multiply that number by 100, rounding fractions up. For DropShips and small craft, use the standard-scale damage value in this calculation.  When a cargo hit occurs, roll 1D6. On a result of 1–3, general cargo suffrs damage (if present). On a result of 4–6, unit bays (if present) are affected. Round any fractions up."

The only limit to the number of non-weapon bays on a ship is the number of doors it can have (p196TM), but this doesn't seem to apply to large support vehicles.  This means a 2.5mt warship could have FIFTY various cargo and unit bays.  Based on the construction rules, it appears there is nothing stopping you building a unit with dozens (up to 50!) individual bays to avoid losing too much from any single hit.

Door hits are fine, it just randomly takes out some door somewhere, easy enough.

Based on the critical hit description I listed above (TW239), it really appears there are always just 2 bays, regardless of how the TRO lists them.  The bays are "cargo" and "unit", and whenever that critical is taken you destroy a percentage of the carried units/cargo.  The Aqueduct liquid cargo carrier (HB Perphery, p203), has 7 bays.  This is really just for fluff, as what really matters is it has *CARGO* bays (31422 Tons in 5 bays), and *UNIT* bays (2 Fighters, 2 Small Craft, 2 bays).  So any hit to this dropship with 7 SI would do DAMAGE/14*100% damage to either of those bays, 50/50 chance of either.  I'm not sure if the part in bold means split between *ALL*, or just "all the ones listed, so if 6 bays, roll a 1d6 to see which one".

And also, along these same lines, when a bay is listed as "Fighters/Small Craft = 18" (Conquistador, TRO3067p184), does that mean 18 small craft bays that typically hold some fighters since they aren't split up?

And what about bays that say something like"
Bay 3:  Small Craft (3)         0 Door
            Cargo (225 Tons)     1 Door
             (Vengeance, TRO3057R, p54)

Does that mean that the small craft have no launch capability, or can it just use the cargo doors?  And if it can use the cargo doors, what about all the units like the Titan (TRO3057R, P88) that have  bays like:
Bay 1:  Cargo (696) Tons      2 Doors
            Fighter (6)                 2 Doors

It would be able to launch 4 of those 6 fighters in 1 turn?  Or is there some wacky rule saying if 0 doors it can use other doors in the bay, but if doors listed those are the only doors that line item can use?

Thanks, built a construction app for all aero craft and got pretty confused in that last step of adding bays/doors :(
« Last Edit: 19 August 2012, 23:36:03 by Xotl »
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Paul

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Re: DS/JS/WS/SS Non-Weapon Bay Limits & Organization
« Reply #1 on: 06 March 2012, 09:54:43 »
I may be corrected, but here's my understanding.

I'm not sure if the part in bold means split between *ALL*, or just "all the ones listed, so if 6 bays, roll a 1d6 to see which one".

My understanding is that you randomly determine which bay is taking damage.

Quote
And also, along these same lines, when a bay is listed as "Fighters/Small Craft = 18" (Conquistador, TRO3067p184), does that mean 18 small craft bays that typically hold some fighters since they aren't split up?

Correct. 18 Small Craft bays, but some are used for fighters as well.



Quote
And what about bays that say something like"
Bay 3:  Small Craft (3)         0 Door
            Cargo (225 Tons)     1 Door
             (Vengeance, TRO3057R, p54)

That's an error. As you noticed:
TM, P196:  "On DropShips, however, transport bays—including those for fighters, BattleMechs and other units—must assign a minimum of 1 bay door each, to allow for entry and egress from the vessel. 
(emphasis added)


Quote
It would be able to launch 4 of those 6 fighters in 1 turn?

Each door allows you to launch 2 fighters / turn. More if you don't mind making some rolls. See also p.86 of TW, under Launching.

"Two fighters or small craft can exit each fighter/small craft bay door each turn at no risk; the number of fighter/small craft bay doors on the Large Craft will be noted in either the unit’s technical readout or record sheet game stats.
Additional fighters/small craft may attempt to launch from the same bay door in a turn, but if they do, each unit (including the first two) must make a Control Roll with a +1 penalty per additional fighter/small craft launched beyond the first two."

Failure is 10 standard damage to the nose, for every point of MOF.

Paul
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Bad_Syntax

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Re: DS/JS/WS/SS Non-Weapon Bay Limits & Organization
« Reply #2 on: 06 March 2012, 10:44:04 »
I may be corrected, but here's my understanding.

My understanding is that you randomly determine which bay is taking damage.

So if I'm designing a munchy 2.5m ton battleship, I can put 50 bays, each with 1 door/1 fighter/1kt cargo.  This way, when I take a cargo hit the most I'll lose is a single fighter bay or a few hundred tons of cargo.  If I had 1 bay with 50 fighters and 50kt cargo, with 50 doors, each hit would take out a large percentage of the total, which doesn't seem to be very logical since nearly every warship has a single big cargo bay.  Something just seems funny there.  Random sure, 50/50 chance of cargo or units sure, but random by bay count leaves a huge loophole.  Seems to make sense to say "all cargo" or "all units", 50/50 either, and not necessarily by actual physical bay # on the unit, which again leaves that hole.


Each door allows you to launch 2 fighters / turn. More if you don't mind making some rolls. See also p.86 of TW, under Launching.

Right, but that one bay appears to have had 2 fighter doors and 2 cargo doors, meaning the bay has 4 doors, and since the bay has 4 doors, it appears that the bay could launch 8 fighters per turn (I made a mistake earlier and said 4 when I meant 8).  I've found no rules anywhere stating that bay doors are allocated for specific things in a bay.  This would fall kind of in line with bays listing small craft with 0 doors, but 1 door for the cargo, meaning that bay can launch 2 of those small craft, and the # of doors for specific items within a bay is just fluffy as the total doors for the bay is the number that matters when it comes to launch rates.

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Paul

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Re: DS/JS/WS/SS Non-Weapon Bay Limits & Organization
« Reply #3 on: 06 March 2012, 11:12:49 »
So if I'm designing a munchy 2.5m ton battleship, I can put 50 bays, each with 1 door/1 fighter/1kt cargo.  This way, when I take a cargo hit the most I'll lose is a single fighter bay or a few hundred tons of cargo.  If I had 1 bay with 50 fighters and 50kt cargo, with 50 doors, each hit would take out a large percentage of the total, which doesn't seem to be very logical since nearly every warship has a single big cargo bay.  Something just seems funny there.

*shrug* That's a consequence of an imperfect system.


Quote
Right, but that one bay appears to have had 2 fighter doors and 2 cargo doors, meaning the bay has 4 doors, and since the bay has 4 doors, it appears that the bay could launch 8 fighters per turn (I made a mistake earlier and said 4 when I meant 8).

Only 2 of them are assigned to fighters though.

Paul
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Welshman

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Re: DS/JS/WS/SS Non-Weapon Bay Limits & Organization
« Reply #4 on: 23 March 2012, 20:05:41 »
Paul has hit all the high points.

I would just point out that Large and Advanced Aerospace craft have door limits. You will find the rules in Tech Manual and Strategic Operations respectively.

In addition, as of Strategic Operations, door limits include cargo doors.

This does render some older designs illegal and updated Record Sheets will be reflect correct door numbers.
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Bad_Syntax

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Re: DS/JS/WS/SS Non-Weapon Bay Limits & Organization (Answered)
« Reply #5 on: 23 March 2012, 22:59:00 »
Thanks for the info!

SO does have door info, up to 50 for a 2.5mt warship.  I am pretty sure that there are no DS/JS/WS/SS that have too many doors (it is a pretty big number).

The door limitation is fine, its the amount of bays.  There is no rule saying that there is a limit on bay counts, and bays don't necessarily have doors.  If they get fixed to require doors, then a ship can have 50 bays, if there is a limit of say 10 bays, it works fine.

The problem is when somebody makes a ship that has dozens of bays that split up their cargo purely so the bays never get hit.  Take something with 2x100 cubicle fighter bays.  It could just as easily have 30 x 6 cubicle fighter bays, pretty much ensuring that any criticals have a very minimal effect.

Perhaps we just need a note added, something like "max of 4 bays with launch doors, 4 bays with non-launch doors, and 4 bays of cargo doors.  Cargo bays can replace launch/non-launch bays on a 1 for 1 basis, and non-launch bays can replace launch bays on a 1:1 basis".  That way I'm pretty sure it wouldn't invalidate anything already printed (I'd be happy to double check), but would put a limit on custom designs to avoid massive abuse.
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Welshman

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Re: DS/JS/WS/SS Non-Weapon Bay Limits & Organization (Answered)
« Reply #6 on: 24 March 2012, 00:08:37 »
The construction rules are there to make construction possible, not to so tightly control the rules that every possible rules holes is covered. It is possible to make many designs, completely within the construction rules, that would be considered "unsportsmanlike."

The rules are not designed to prevent such behavior. The construction rules are designed to allow sporting players to create custom units for play and enjoyment with other like minded players.

If someone wants to make such a design, they are perfectly able. One just needs to remember that this is a two or more player game. If a player chooses to push the limits of the rules, the other players are perfectly able to take their minis and go home.

We hope that clarifies your question.

Best,
Joel BC
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"Some closets will never contain Narnia, no matter how many times we open the door." - Weirdo, in relation to the power of hope.