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Author Topic: The Scorpion Empire : Plus Ultra  (Read 129725 times)

Drewbacca

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Re: The Scorpion Empire : Plus Ultra
« Reply #1350 on: 17 October 2021, 09:25:50 »
I know it is not accurate but I am declaring the Scorpions the Star League in Exile. That is all.

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Re: The Scorpion Empire : Plus Ultra
« Reply #1351 on: 17 October 2021, 17:56:27 »
I'm curious if the Seekers will end up starting something with the new Star League/ilClan.

I'm also curious how ilClan will behave governing a Star League.  Both the Clan & the original Star League governance are completely different.
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glitterboy2098

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Re: The Scorpion Empire : Plus Ultra
« Reply #1352 on: 17 October 2021, 18:27:46 »
There is one advantage off the top of my head: if a Seeker was in say Alpha Galaxy, when she takes leave she has to be replaced for unit cohesion.  When she comes back, she would have to bump somebody out to take her old place in whatever unit she's in.  The higher the rank, the more trouble this is.

With a Galaxy devoted to seekers, this is lessened because it would be ready to deal with the eventualities of Seekers going about their business.  Seekers could come and go as they are ordered.
not to mention it would make finding a retinue easier for the same reason.
« Last Edit: 17 October 2021, 18:34:41 by glitterboy2098 »

rebs

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Re: The Scorpion Empire : Plus Ultra
« Reply #1353 on: 17 October 2021, 18:33:35 »
I'm sure Gunslinger's Notes come from or are for Gunslingers.  And which Clan is the inheritors of the Gunslinger tradition?  The Scorpions, of course!

The Scorpions also have that rede that they will always be an ally of the Clan of Kerensky.

Between those two things, I am willing to bet money that eventually the Scorpions come into the fold of IlClan Wolf.

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Re: The Scorpion Empire : Plus Ultra
« Reply #1354 on: 17 October 2021, 19:06:43 »
I'm sure Gunslinger's Notes come from or are for Gunslingers.  And which Clan is the inheritors of the Gunslinger tradition?  The Scorpions, of course!

The Scorpions also have that rede that they will always be an ally of the Clan of Kerensky.

Between those two things, I am willing to bet money that eventually the Scorpions come into the fold of IlClan Wolf.

Unless Alaric or the Wolves do something stupid.  If there is one thing the Clans do best is hold onto a grudge or slight.  Besides the Scorpions are to far away to do anything except pay lip service.  Not to mention I think that although they have kept the Khans they no longer truly consider themselves Clan.

rebs

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Re: The Scorpion Empire : Plus Ultra
« Reply #1355 on: 17 October 2021, 19:24:22 »
Yet they cling to many Clan traditions and ways.  They are not Homies, and they are not Spheroid.   

Besides, the Scorpions are currently penetrating the IS with their Seekers.  They will eventually go to Terra itself, and of course they will want to take part in a Clan-led Star League. 

And finally, let us not forget the power of Ethan Moreau's rede to Nicky K.   The Scorpions take it so seriously that Khans have died honoring it.  Well, one Khan (Cyrus Elam) died to defend Wolves from treachery. 
« Last Edit: 17 October 2021, 19:25:56 by rebs »

ArkRoyalRavager

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Re: The Scorpion Empire : Plus Ultra
« Reply #1356 on: 18 October 2021, 06:14:59 »
The ZarKhan and Khan made it clear they no longer feel bound by those traditions, and those oldtimers were decimated and mostly supporting the mainstream after the ilClan revelation.

The Imperials will be dealing with the ilClan as a new nation, not the traditional deference.

ArkRoyalRavager

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Re: The Scorpion Empire : Plus Ultra
« Reply #1357 on: 18 October 2021, 06:16:03 »
I know it is not accurate but I am declaring the Scorpions the Star League in Exile. That is all.

This. They have the best socio-political framework with only the Suns(under enlightened leadership) close behind.

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Re: The Scorpion Empire : Plus Ultra
« Reply #1358 on: 18 October 2021, 06:34:10 »
The ZarKhan and Khan made it clear they no longer feel bound by those traditions, and those oldtimers were decimated and mostly supporting the mainstream after the ilClan revelation.

The Imperials will be dealing with the ilClan as a new nation, not the traditional deference.

We will have to wait and see.
Right now we have political grandstanding and them getting rid of political enemies. What they will actually do...we don't know.
You have to consider, they pulled their political rebuilding with the very real threat of the Jade Falcons becoming ilClan. They had to consider that.
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ArkRoyalRavager

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Re: The Scorpion Empire : Plus Ultra
« Reply #1359 on: 19 October 2021, 00:42:02 »
So with the Wolves as ilClan, it might be a good thing for them. Previous Scorpion-Wolf relations have been cordial.
Overall, it seems it's always an interesting time with the Empire.

rebs

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Re: The Scorpion Empire : Plus Ultra
« Reply #1360 on: 19 October 2021, 02:10:55 »
The ZarKhan and Khan made it clear they no longer feel bound by those traditions, and those oldtimers were decimated and mostly supporting the mainstream after the ilClan revelation.

The Imperials will be dealing with the ilClan as a new nation, not the traditional deference.

It's really not so clear, I think.  The Scorpions may try to think they are "no longer Clan", but they are dripping with Clannisms.  They still have a caste system dominated by the Warrior caste, and they still have a Eugenics program.  They are still absorbing outside cultures, as they did since the ELH.  The Scorps have not abandoned the Honor Road.  And I think they still take the rede of Ethan Moreau with the utmost respect and seriousness. 

Until the text tells us otherwise, I do believe the Scorpion Empire will be the first Deep Periphery power to acknowledge and even assist and defer to the IlClan Wolf.
« Last Edit: 19 October 2021, 02:12:50 by rebs »

Elmoth

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Re: The Scorpion Empire : Plus Ultra
« Reply #1361 on: 19 October 2021, 02:34:44 »
We still need to see what happens to the ilclan in thebinner sphere, so how a deep epriphery power reacts to them will depend a lot on that.

The interesting bit is the Foxes not sharing this bit of crucial information with the Scorpions. Do the foxes have a second agenda here?

rebs

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Re: The Scorpion Empire : Plus Ultra
« Reply #1362 on: 19 October 2021, 02:38:57 »
Is it a second agenda?  Or has it always been their agenda, that they look out for their own interests?

Elmoth

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Re: The Scorpion Empire : Plus Ultra
« Reply #1363 on: 19 October 2021, 02:41:22 »
Maybe then the merchant clan is the one that is no clan anymore...

Empyrus

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Re: The Scorpion Empire : Plus Ultra
« Reply #1364 on: 19 October 2021, 06:00:44 »
For all their mercantile tendencies, the Sea Foxes are a recognized Clan, one that follows the Clan way for most part. The Scorpion Empire is culturally Clan (or maybe Clan-derivative) but it is not a Clan anymore.
And the Sea Foxes recognized the IlClan, deferring to them, and there's implicit "doesn't matter who became that" there too. (And also implicit: "We're powerful and important enough we expect certain respect.")

So, why share information?
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rebs

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Re: The Scorpion Empire : Plus Ultra
« Reply #1365 on: 19 October 2021, 08:11:42 »
The Scorpions will find out on their own soon enough the the Wolf has become IlClan.  I suspect they will want to become part of the 3rd Star League.

Empyrus

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Re: The Scorpion Empire : Plus Ultra
« Reply #1366 on: 19 October 2021, 08:25:59 »
I would expect the Scorps to become "The Periphery Empire", so to speak, rather than being part of Inner Sphere and the Star League.
And let Reunification War part 2 commence...  ;D

Seriously though, i wonder what would be the benefit to be part of the Star League? The Scorpion Empire is pretty far away. Or what does a Periphery empire matter to the Star League?

At least, for the first 5-10 years it seems irrelevant, maybe longer. While we know from IRL perspective that the IlClan and Star League stick around for 100 years at least, the Scorpions don't know if it will stand. Risky business to swear allegiance to something that might not be around for long, that may create new enemies.
Conquest of the Inner Sphere won't happen overnight...
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rebs

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Re: The Scorpion Empire : Plus Ultra
« Reply #1367 on: 19 October 2021, 08:50:14 »
I am figuring from the Gunslinger's Notes that it meant the Scorpions would swear to the 3rd Star League.  Just my feelings on it. 

As my personal text say, I agree to disagree.

Drewbacca

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Re: The Scorpion Empire : Plus Ultra
« Reply #1368 on: 19 October 2021, 08:57:39 »
What are these Gunslinger's Notes?

Empyrus

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Re: The Scorpion Empire : Plus Ultra
« Reply #1369 on: 19 October 2021, 08:58:37 »
I am figuring from the Gunslinger's Notes that it meant the Scorpions would swear to the 3rd Star League.  Just my feelings on it. 
I just figured the Gunslinger program gets re-established, or something new is established under that name. There's no reason for the Scorps to be involved in that in any way, even if they in some vague sense carry on the tradition. I'll also note that the Clan training may be based on Gunslinger program as well, considering it is focused on producing elite warriors and duelists, so Scorps aren't really needed for any Gunslinger program.

From meta-perspective, i figure the Scorps being outside the Star League* is more interesting. Like, we'd get something like three categories: the Star League, rebels and resistance movements, and outsiders to the system. The Scorps would fall into the third category.

*i don't like calling it the Third League because the second one was a sham and a failure

What are these Gunslinger's Notes?
First** and Second Succession War sourcebooks, and TRO Succession Wars, TRO Clan Invasion and TRO Jihad all have notes or introduction set in 3250. Think some of those were labeled, or refer to "Gunslinger notes".
Need to check them through once again. Maybe i'll just copy them down to a file so i don't need to check the books every time...

**Maybe, need to recheck. EDIT Nope.
« Last Edit: 19 October 2021, 09:03:26 by Empyrus »
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Doc Swift

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Re: The Scorpion Empire : Plus Ultra
« Reply #1370 on: 19 October 2021, 09:08:46 »
I find this discussion interesting. Clan Goliath Scorpion still exists. They created and rule the Scorpion Empire. When Clan Wolf created the Wolf Empire, they did not cease being Clan. Circumstances being what they are, the other Clans might wrinkle their noses at what the Scorpions have done to cement their power, but they're still Clan. The real issue that I see is whether the other Clans consider the Scorpions abjured, as the Homeworld Clans surely do. That would be the greatest impediment, but given the divorce between Homeworld and Inner Sphere Clans, I don't see the IS Clanners lending much weight to the Homeworld Clans' decision.

Empyrus

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Re: The Scorpion Empire : Plus Ultra
« Reply #1371 on: 19 October 2021, 09:21:13 »
I find this discussion interesting. Clan Goliath Scorpion still exists. They created and rule the Scorpion Empire. When Clan Wolf created the Wolf Empire, they did not cease being Clan. Circumstances being what they are, the other Clans might wrinkle their noses at what the Scorpions have done to cement their power, but they're still Clan. The real issue that I see is whether the other Clans consider the Scorpions abjured, as the Homeworld Clans surely do. That would be the greatest impediment, but given the divorce between Homeworld and Inner Sphere Clans, I don't see the IS Clanners lending much weight to the Homeworld Clans' decision.
The ilClan will certainly claim right to be able to undo Abjuration if necessary, especially one that's done by the Homeworlders. After all, the Smoke Jaguars got resurrected and the possibility of giving the Nova Cats another chance was implied to be possible (in that their destruction by the Combine was deemed illegitimate, not that i believe this will amount to anything, figure it was just rhetoric to justify the Smoke Jaguars).
What i wonder is how Clan the Scorps regard themselves, and whether they've changed enough that Spheroid Clans regard them as "not a Clan anymore".

There are some differences in the Empire formation circumstances though. At least, i figure the Wolf Empire was named so because "Occupation Zone" implies it is a temporary thing. An empire is there to stay, though in practice the new Wolf Empire isn't that different from an Occupation Zone. I figure the Scorps have merged more into their actual empire.
But i need to refresh my understanding of the Escorpion Imperio foundation and later history. And i will admit that the Ghost Bears are very integrated but no one has problems with that. Or at least, no one has enough firepower.

Distance is a major issue though, no matter what.
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GreekFire

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Re: The Scorpion Empire : Plus Ultra
« Reply #1372 on: 19 October 2021, 09:51:21 »
The real issue that I see is whether the other Clans consider the Scorpions abjured, as the Homeworld Clans surely do. That would be the greatest impediment, but given the divorce between Homeworld and Inner Sphere Clans, I don't see the IS Clanners lending much weight to the Homeworld Clans' decision.

Honestly, I'd worry about the opposite more than this. The Scorpions voted in favor of Abjuring the Wolves, and followed the ilKhan's later order to  Annihilate them.

If the Scorps don't care about those anymore, then I can see both sides letting bygones be bygones. What happens in the Homeworlds, stays in the Homeworlds.
« Last Edit: 19 October 2021, 09:55:03 by GreekFire »
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Re: The Scorpion Empire : Plus Ultra
« Reply #1373 on: 19 October 2021, 14:29:10 »
i don't like calling it the Third League because the second one was a sham and a failure
So was the First League, lol

Empyrus

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Re: The Scorpion Empire : Plus Ultra
« Reply #1374 on: 19 October 2021, 14:36:33 »
So was the First League, lol
Please, it stood for several hundred years and it did increase living standards and overall reduced warfare for its time. Now, admittedly the first one may not have been that successful in the long run, but it was far, far more successful overall than the second one.
The second one was around only for 10 years, and pretty much everything related to it was... err, to be honest, i'm sure it really did anything beyond killing a Clan and two Star Lords using the institution for their own ends.

This said, i have to say i'm skeptical about the new Star League being any better, except having more longevity than the second one  ;D
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rebs

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Re: The Scorpion Empire : Plus Ultra
« Reply #1375 on: 19 October 2021, 22:39:20 »
What are these Gunslinger's Notes?

In the new Tukayyid sourcebook, the Gunslingers Notes are annotations from 3250, as Empyrus said. 

rebs

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Re: The Scorpion Empire : Plus Ultra
« Reply #1376 on: 19 October 2021, 22:45:18 »
The Scorpions voted in favor of Abjuring the Wolves, and followed the ilKhan's later order to  Annihilate them.

Oh, yeah.  I forgot about the secret Annihilation order.  Good catch.

Perhaps they no longer honor Ethan Moreau's rede. 

Then again, everyone went berserk during the Wars of Reaving.   Maybe the Scorpions will yet honor that long-ago promise to defend the Clan of Kerensky.
« Last Edit: 19 October 2021, 22:47:19 by rebs »

Empyrus

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Re: The Scorpion Empire : Plus Ultra
« Reply #1377 on: 19 October 2021, 22:54:06 »
In the new Tukayyid sourcebook, the Gunslingers Notes are annotations from 3250, as Empyrus said. 
Went over all five pieces from 3250 we know.

3250 stuff is mostly from the Star League Loremaster Stephan Roshak. Short bit in Second Succession War, giving some framing to the book, first featuring the title Gunslinger (Eli Sender). Introductions in TROs Succession Wars, Clan Invasion, Jihad, the first two of these featuring the title again (Jázon Marik). Battle of Tukayyid has short framing in form of message from a Gunslinger (Candent Sortek) to Stephan Roshak.

There's not enough info to really figure out where (or when) the title comes from. Nothing in the bits seem to have any connection to the Goliath Scorpions or Nueva Castille or so.
There is a mention of "Auditor Clusters" that "scour" the Star League and the Periphery for signs of unauthorized heavy industry. But i'll note that Nueva Castille and Hanseatic League are geographically in the Deep Periphery so they may be beyond the scope of Auditor Clusters.
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ArkRoyalRavager

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Re: The Scorpion Empire : Plus Ultra
« Reply #1378 on: 20 October 2021, 01:20:02 »
Regardless, the main benefit for an Imperial membership in the Star League is a guarantee against Homie aggression, if the Snakes in particular are still a strong power.

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Re: The Scorpion Empire : Plus Ultra
« Reply #1379 on: 20 October 2021, 05:04:03 »
Regardless, the main benefit for an Imperial membership in the Star League is a guarantee against Homie aggression, if the Snakes in particular are still a strong power.

The funny thing is the Scorpion Empire has existed for almost 70 years when the Ilclan is announced. Why did the Homeworld Clans leave them alone for so long (or rather why are they still leaving them alone)? Unless the "Taint doctrin" is still strong and they simply leave them alone lest said taint spreads tro the Homeworld again. The Scorpions in itself present an interesting case: they were in favor of abjuring all IS Clans but then got abjured themselves. Plus the Council of 6 actually decided to never contact the Homeworld Clans again (though Clan Greedy Merch..*cough* Sea Fox seems to interpret it differently)

 

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