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Author Topic: Fall of the Aurigan Coalition  (Read 24606 times)

Stormlion1

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Re: Fall of the Aurigan Coalition
« Reply #120 on: 03 October 2021, 15:40:23 »
Might also be how much dust and dirt were pumped into the atmosphere. Lot of dust could cause colder temps because that dust would stay in the atmosphere and block sunlight. This colder for a decade. It is the definition of nuclear winter originally.
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idea weenie

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Re: Fall of the Aurigan Coalition
« Reply #121 on: 03 October 2021, 15:41:56 »
It isn't uncommon in BT, there are/were a lot of planets with fragile ecosystems.

But there might of course have been something special in the cargo of the DropShip.

Salted bombs that were designed to cause ecosystem damage?  The material from the bomb might only cause damage for half a year, but if repairing from that damage can take over 9 years that could work.

Liam's Ghost

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Re: Fall of the Aurigan Coalition
« Reply #122 on: 03 October 2021, 17:44:39 »
But by the description of the Shrapnel story it seemed like the issue was the radioactive drive of the dropship that created the mini nuclear winter. In any case I don't see either as a cause for that disaster. After all there are a lot of dropships falling to planets in novels and none provokes anything other than a fireball.

Don't get me wrong, I liked the story and I thing it created a very interesting scenario for the Aurigan Coalition, tense, and not very hopeful for its future.

Radiation in and of itself doesn't cause nuclear winter. And also... umm... fusion drives aren't that kind of radioactive.

A ship that hasn't finished its deceleration could smack the planet pretty hard and throw up a hefty cloud of particulates though.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Stormy

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Re: Fall of the Aurigan Coalition
« Reply #123 on: 04 October 2021, 00:55:26 »
I wonder what happens if you throw dropship specs into one of those asteroid impact simulators...

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Re: Fall of the Aurigan Coalition
« Reply #124 on: 04 October 2021, 07:14:02 »
I wonder what happens if you throw dropship specs into one of those asteroid impact simulators...

I'm not an expert but I would have thought it would be more density than Mass or speed to throw up that amount of dirt

Most DropShips would be like a fly hitting a windshield of a moving vehicle
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Stormlion1

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Re: Fall of the Aurigan Coalition
« Reply #125 on: 04 October 2021, 08:12:54 »
I'm not an expert but I would have thought it would be more density than Mass or speed to throw up that amount of dirt

Most DropShips would be like a fly hitting a windshield of a moving vehicle

It would count on what the dropship is hitting. A dusty plain of fine dirt and sand. And gravity would have a few things to say. A lighter gravity world would allow that fine particulates to go higher and stay up longer.
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Liam's Ghost

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Re: Fall of the Aurigan Coalition
« Reply #126 on: 04 October 2021, 19:14:40 »
I'm not an expert but I would have thought it would be more density than Mass or speed to throw up that amount of dirt

Most DropShips would be like a fly hitting a windshield of a moving vehicle

Velocity covereth a multitude of sins.

If you just drop a dropship from high orbit (no starting velocity), that will still be equivalent to kilotons of energy, but like you imply, it's not moving fast enough. It'll break apart and spread that energy out over a wide area before it can do anything significant.

If it's close enough on its final approach when things go wrong, then the same result. Still not moving fast enough.

The further out it's sabotaged, the more velocity it has. If it has enough velocity, it doesn't have a chance to break apart before the massive fireball it creates reaches the ground and kicks up material. Maybe a lot of material.

And by the time a dropship would normally be beginning its deceleration leg on the way into this system (based on oublished transit times) it would be moving at about 1% C. Not tens or hundreds or even thousands of meters per second, but literally millions.

I assume the failure occurred later in the deceleration leg and the ship had bled off a good part of that velocity, just because if it failed earlier it might have screwed up the approach so badly it missed the planet. But still, there's a lot of energy to potentially smack the planet with.

Even a fly can go through a windshield if it's moving fast enough.


Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Stormy

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Re: Fall of the Aurigan Coalition
« Reply #127 on: 04 October 2021, 23:57:46 »
Interesting things that I've learned playing with earth impact simulators:

  • If you drop a Fortress-class sized rock on a city, you'll destroy it.
  • The density of the Fortress-class dropship is the biggest barrier to making craters (even going ridiculous velocities, it breaks apart in the atmosphere).
  • That said, with ridiculous velocities, you can make an absolutely prodigious fireball in the atmosphere with one, assuming that it hits at speed.

Stormlion1

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Re: Fall of the Aurigan Coalition
« Reply #128 on: 06 October 2021, 19:11:27 »
Interesting things that I've learned playing with earth impact simulators:

  • If you drop a Fortress-class sized rock on a city, you'll destroy it.
  • The density of the Fortress-class dropship is the biggest barrier to making craters (even going ridiculous velocities, it breaks apart in the atmosphere).
  • That said, with ridiculous velocities, you can make an absolutely prodigious fireball in the atmosphere with one, assuming that it hits at speed.

From the game cut scene, 17:30 or so.
https://youtu.be/q_b5Rl0JvG8

It looks like it came down from just below the Karman Line and impacted into hills. Probably threw up a lot of dust.
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Stormy

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Re: Fall of the Aurigan Coalition
« Reply #129 on: 07 October 2021, 00:49:16 »
Yeah, I've seen the scene (a few times)...

...I just thought it was interesting that it essentially amounts to Rule of Cool territory. I'd never thought to model it before.

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Re: Fall of the Aurigan Coalition
« Reply #130 on: 09 November 2021, 17:05:35 »
Interesting things that I've learned playing with earth impact simulators:

  • If you drop a Fortress-class sized rock on a city, you'll destroy it.
  • The density of the Fortress-class dropship is the biggest barrier to making craters (even going ridiculous velocities, it breaks apart in the atmosphere).
  • That said, with ridiculous velocities, you can make an absolutely prodigious fireball in the atmosphere with one, assuming that it hits at speed.

Bolded for emphasis . . . that is a known flaw with the designs- basically ye olde FASA was not great with math.  IIRC cray laughed the mass vs dimensions off saying a dropship was akin to a beachball.  You could say the dropship impact results would be realistic IF the dropship volume to mass ratio was realistic.
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carlisimo

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Re: Fall of the Aurigan Coalition
« Reply #131 on: 17 November 2021, 13:24:32 »
I'm not an expert but I would have thought it would be more density than Mass or speed to throw up that amount of dirt

Most DropShips would be like a fly hitting a windshield of a moving vehicle

It’s energy that kicks up dirt, and energy is proportional to the object’s mass and the square of its velocity.  Density plays an indirect role; if it’s denser, it’ll have a smaller projected area so it’ll lose less velocity due to air resistance.  The density of the atmosphere plays into that as well. 

I looked up Skylab and it was several times more dense than a Fortress despite being flimsy and unlandable.  That’s the density issue Stormy and Colt are talking about.  It was small (85 tons) and fell from orbit, so no surprise that it didn’t do a whole lot. 

For what it’s worth, the meteor that created Meteor Crater in AZ is estimated to have weighed 200,000 to 300,000 tons.  A Fortress is 6,000.  When I played the game I got the feeling that the dropship had slowed down before being infected, so I’m skeptical about this whole thing.  I would’ve gone with something like, “...and lo, the dropship did fall onto the planet’s water vapor emitter, and a Star League artifact was lost, and the grain fields of [continent] did revert to frozen tundra.”  But I admit, the Fortress causing direct harm is more dramatic.

Elmoth

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Re: Fall of the Aurigan Coalition
« Reply #132 on: 17 November 2021, 17:12:25 »
Make it explode like a current nuclear bomb (but clean, so we do not have incovenient radiation at the point of impact) and the problem is saved as well.

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Re: Fall of the Aurigan Coalition
« Reply #133 on: 22 November 2021, 20:45:17 »
Given the Aurigan Coalition's worlds were colonized after the restoration war/during the Star League era, it's predecessor (the Aurigan Trade Partnership) is noted to exist shortly after Star League, and Aurigans in the games speaking favorably of Star League and Ian Cameron (atypical for Periphery dwellers, especially in their neck of the woods) and the presence of a SLDF cache I think there's a case to be made that the Reach was settled during Star League by the Terran Hegemony.

That... might also go a ways towards explaining why the Concordate is so quick to assume hostility from the Coalition, and why it's got better ties with the Magistracy. Old baggage.

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Re: Fall of the Aurigan Coalition
« Reply #134 on: 10 December 2021, 20:55:14 »
(Remember Taurians are NOT signatories of the Ares Conventions).

Side comment: No one is a signatory of the Ares Conventions anymore. The Houses all formally withdrew in 2786. And that's after the Star League suspended the Conventions for the Reunification War in 2575.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Fall of the Aurigan Coalition
« Reply #135 on: 10 December 2021, 21:50:45 »
Side comment: No one is a signatory of the Ares Conventions anymore. The Houses all formally withdrew in 2786. And that's after the Star League suspended the Conventions for the Reunification War in 2575.

Which is why Grayson being on about it like it was still in force/use in the latest stuff was weird.  Dead letter for over 400 years.
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Ramblefire

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Re: Fall of the Aurigan Coalition
« Reply #136 on: 12 December 2021, 04:17:45 »
Which is why Grayson being on about it like it was still in force/use in the latest stuff was weird.  Dead letter for over 400 years.
Probably because they've had three succession wars to figure out that while they technically don't need to abide by it, unofficially it's actually a really really good idea.

So yeah, you technically could glass a planet with nukes and raise the flag over whatever remains, but you really don't want to because other people will do it to you. So you justify it when other people ask by saying that the Ares Convention forbids such and such an action.

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Re: Fall of the Aurigan Coalition
« Reply #137 on: 12 December 2021, 07:36:37 »
Probably because they've had three succession wars to figure out that while they technically don't need to abide by it, unofficially it's actually a really really good idea.

So yeah, you technically could glass a planet with nukes and raise the flag over whatever remains, but you really don't want to because other people will do it to you. So you justify it when other people ask by saying that the Ares Convention forbids such and such an action.

While Ares Conventions might be a dead treaty, the ideal behind them still applies, and, let's face it, for the most part the Ares Conventions were mostly adhered to during the later half, at least, of the 3rd Succession War, and, even during the 4th, for the most part. Even the Clans pretty much adhered to them in principle(The Jags were censured for Turtle Bay, after all). Technically, no-one is a signatory, but everyone just agrees to follow to a greater or lesser degree. I also think that Mercenaries, not being state actors, followed them a) because first Comstar then the MRBC kinda liked them, and b) Who is going to want to hire Mercs who are willing to gas or virus bomb civilians to win a city fight(because the military stuff is pretty safe from that)?
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Re: Fall of the Aurigan Coalition
« Reply #138 on: 12 December 2021, 13:35:01 »
Probably because they've had three succession wars to figure out that while they technically don't need to abide by it, unofficially it's actually a really really good idea.

There's a LOT more to the Ares Conventions than not "glassing a planet with nukes."

The complete Ares Conventions:
1. Generally ended a battle when opponents were outmaneuvered and checkmated
2. Allowed "time outs" for medics and coolants trucks to enter the battle field
3. Resulted in combat being largely bloodless

As noted in the older version of Strategic Operations, the 150 years of the Age of War fought under the Conventions killed about the same number of people as the 2-year Fourth Succession War, or the last 15 years of the Third Succession War.

You'd be hard pressed to find a single Third Succession War battle that obeyed the Ares Conventions. Most of the knockdown, bloody (but nuke free!) brawls of the late Succession Wars wiped their butts with the Conventions.

...for the most part the Ares Conventions were mostly adhered to during the later half, at least, of the 3rd Succession War, and, even during the 4th, for the most part.

Very few elements of the Ares Conventions were respected during the late Succession Wars. The late Succession Wars came up with their own unwritten rules of warfare that forbade WMDs (unlike the Ares Conventions, which allows nukes in some cases) and had some tacit guidelines for treatment of prisoners, not shooting 'Mechs hooked up to coolant trucks, and the like. However, those are not the Ares Conventions.

p. 247, Strategic Operations:

Quote
I will comment on some past publications and recent media
pronouncements regarding the destruction of space stations
and JumpShips in the current conflicts around the Inner
Sphere. There is a lot of crying about “violations of the Ares
Conventions” when a civilian space station is destroyed. Well,
it’s true the Ares Conventions ruled against attacking civilian
targets, including space stations, but the Ares Conventions
ruled against virtually every other aspect of modern warfare.

Just as an example of how much was banned under the
Conventions, all the battles that obeyed the Ares Conventions
between 2412 and 2575 killed fewer soldiers than the two-year
Fourth Succession War, or the last fifteen years of the Third
Succession War. Conflicts under the Conventions were wars of
maneuver, with opponents often surrendering when “checkmated.”
Pauses in battle were allowed for medics and coolant
units to enter a battlefield. That’s right, there were “timeouts”
under the Conventions.

(remaining paragraphs are in Old StratOps, p. 247)

The old House Sourcebooks and Star League Sourcebook also go into some depth about the Ares Conventions and its thousands of pages of rules, restrictions, and bloodless warfare.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

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**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

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Re: Fall of the Aurigan Coalition
« Reply #139 on: 21 December 2021, 15:44:51 »
The old House Sourcebooks and Star League Sourcebook also go into some depth about the Ares Conventions and its thousands of pages of rules, restrictions, and bloodless warfare.

In essence the Ares convention were the codified version of the old Terran Hegemony warfare principle. They were von Clausewitz famous "war is the continuation of poloitics by different means" quote in writing. After all war is meaningless when your opponent destroys the target you intent to capture. That is also what the 1st and 2nd succession Wars were: often the loosing side decided to destroy infrastructure or attacked with recklnessness to deny their opponents the use of specific production lines. just as it happened in the PÜentagon civil war which is noted as being even more destructive then the succession Wars in the IS.The Clans and their zellbrigen rules are borrowing from the concept (before the Refusal trial and the following years the Clans usually fought on a designated field to obtain  a trialed for mine or production line or what have you) nut are not having all the rules in them

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Re: Fall of the Aurigan Coalition
« Reply #140 on: 10 January 2022, 14:23:09 »
While Ares Conventions might be a dead treaty, the ideal behind them still applies, and, let's face it, for the most part the Ares Conventions were mostly adhered to during the later half, at least, of the 3rd Succession War, and, even during the 4th, for the most part.

This. I got frustrated with everybody in Rock and a Hard Place acting like Righteous Paladin Grayson is an anomaly for not wanting to kill civilians by truckloads.

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Re: Fall of the Aurigan Coalition
« Reply #141 on: 10 January 2022, 15:26:25 »
This. I got frustrated with everybody in Rock and a Hard Place acting like Righteous Paladin Grayson is an anomaly for not wanting to kill civilians by truckloads.

Problem is, it is not in force and it is mostly the culture/societal norms that hold those restraints in place.  OMG the Ares Convention! does not matter . . . WTF, we kill civies and no one will hire us- does matter.  Further, there ARE a truckload of circumstances where non-combatants are no longer shielded by that status.  Or they can fall under reprisal.


To go back to the bit about the DS . . . we have no idea how fast the DS was coming in, because the stop motion or cut scene style of action has not been the most consistent with movement.  Like you can see the shells flying from ACs much easier than it if was a video.
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Re: Fall of the Aurigan Coalition
« Reply #142 on: 10 January 2022, 15:35:36 »
Problem is, it is not in force and it is mostly the culture/societal norms that hold those restraints in place.

Yes, but they are in place. By the era the book is set, wanton killing of civilians would be unusual, but Grayson is talked about like he's unusual for wanting to keep civilians out of the line of fire. Keith just tries too hard to sell us on what a great guy his protagonist is - I don't know if the editors told him to dial it up because they thought there would be new readers unfamiliar with the old GDL books or what.

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Re: Fall of the Aurigan Coalition
« Reply #143 on: 10 January 2022, 17:58:09 »
Yes, but they are in place. By the era the book is set, wanton killing of civilians would be unusual, but Grayson is talked about like he's unusual for wanting to keep civilians out of the line of fire.

The book is set immediately following the events on Helm when the FWL troops (spurred on by Comstar [Pay your bills] misinformation) decimated the GDL support staff and families on Helm. This also was after Trellwan where the DC used a Marauder to take apart the town looking for him and Verthandi where the Red Hunter's troops were not trying to win over hearts and minds with the local civilians.  I can see why Carlyle & Co. would have a heightened concern for avoiding civilian casualties. 

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Re: Fall of the Aurigan Coalition
« Reply #144 on: 19 September 2022, 11:11:01 »
Well, House Arano and the Aurigan Coalition has showed up in fiction again . . . though not sure what is up with Harbinger Company or Kamea's attitude towards increasing the nation's mech numbers.  I could have done without the heavy dumping of Polynesian culture into the story rather than introducing lighter amounts.  We had not gotten any beyond a bare overlay in the previous story and this one had all sorts of things thrown in.

Unfortunately, it also looks like they have Kamea perhaps dealing with the stress badly?  believing the ends justify the means- IE continuing her uncle's policies?

Oh, and a Enforcer is 'death'? Mentioned in the same line as the Atlas?
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Re: Fall of the Aurigan Coalition
« Reply #145 on: 19 September 2022, 13:24:33 »
Polynesian you say? Now I want my Maui demi-god to pilot something that can jump, run and swing a fish hook shaped melee weapon!!!

Your welcome!...  xp

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Re: Fall of the Aurigan Coalition
« Reply #146 on: 01 October 2022, 14:12:53 »
Well, House Arano and the Aurigan Coalition has showed up in fiction again . . . though not sure what is up with Harbinger Company or Kamea's attitude towards increasing the nation's mech numbers.  I could have done without the heavy dumping of Polynesian culture into the story rather than introducing lighter amounts.  We had not gotten any beyond a bare overlay in the previous story and this one had all sorts of things thrown in.

Unfortunately, it also looks like they have Kamea perhaps dealing with the stress badly?  believing the ends justify the means- IE continuing her uncle's policies?

Oh, and a Enforcer is 'death'? Mentioned in the same line as the Atlas?

I do not mind the cultural stuff as worldbuilding in Battletech is good.  I was also intrigued that this story continued the same thru line from the House Arano sourcebook about her continuing the same centralizing policies as her uncle, including seizing and keeping privately own mechs. Maybe I misread the story, but it did seem it was weighing in the direction of justifying Kamea's actions.

I do want more Aurigan Coalition stories, including some Pre-Directorate stuff and answering the question of what happened to them and why we never heard of any aurigans in-universe past 3050.

I will reiterate that I believe that Kyalla withdrew Magistracy recognition and support of the Coalition to keep the Taurians off her back during the Andurien Secession.  Taurians do not even give lip service to the Ares Conventions, so NBC is entirely on the table as they see the FedSuns distracted with the 4SW and finally deal with the Aurigans(who they see as secessionists).




 

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Re: Fall of the Aurigan Coalition
« Reply #147 on: 01 October 2022, 15:22:58 »
Man, all the factions i like, keep getting themselves wiped out.  :)

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Re: Fall of the Aurigan Coalition
« Reply #148 on: 02 October 2022, 03:23:34 »
I do not mind the cultural stuff as worldbuilding in Battletech is good.  I was also intrigued that this story continued the same thru line from the House Arano sourcebook about her continuing the same centralizing policies as her uncle, including seizing and keeping privately own mechs. Maybe I misread the story, but it did seem it was weighing in the direction of justifying Kamea's actions.

I do want more Aurigan Coalition stories, including some Pre-Directorate stuff and answering the question of what happened to them and why we never heard of any aurigans in-universe past 3050.

I will reiterate that I believe that Kyalla withdrew Magistracy recognition and support of the Coalition to keep the Taurians off her back during the Andurien Secession.  Taurians do not even give lip service to the Ares Conventions, so NBC is entirely on the table as they see the FedSuns distracted with the 4SW and finally deal with the Aurigans(who they see as secessionists).

Well, that's essentially the idea I had when I created the thread. I really think the Aurigan Coalition falls not long after, probably around 3030s at most, as either invasion or internal problems dissolve the union. I want to use it in a mercenary campaign of ATOW, as the characters play an important role in that fall.

But in any case I think that the Coalition really doesn't survive. If they don't fall under a foreign invasion (Taurians probably), they dissolve and maybe Kamea still rules Coromodir, but nothing else, and all member worlds are simply now independent (which means that some of those will fail, as many times has happened in Battletech lore).

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Re: Fall of the Aurigan Coalition
« Reply #149 on: 12 October 2022, 03:08:58 »
Please forgive me if this has already been asked but what if the Aurigan Coalition didn't fall? What if it comes down to decades worth of maps being made and the Coalition being a new addition?
Do we know if it had major problems post restoration?

If it did get "conquered" then I'd be ok with it being the Taurians or maybe dissolves as a state. The pro-directorate remnants could be a part of that. Would make for a good continuing story.
Then the Coalition goes back to being trade worlds and not a true state; much in the same way it's looked at anyway. As long as those damn target practice Capellans didn't get any of it I'm ok.

Knowing if the Auriagans did fall for sure or not would help me come up with some potential backstory I'd like to make for a mercenary company I'd make if/when I get my hands on the KS.
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