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Author Topic: languages of the periphery  (Read 1050 times)

glitterboy2098

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languages of the periphery
« on: 22 September 2022, 12:41:28 »
so we know that the lyrans have german as their primary, the Fedsuns use french(?), the combine mandates japanese, etc.

do we know what the main/majority languages are for the periphery? especially the Taurians, Canopus, and the old Rim Worlds Republic?

AlphaMirage

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Re: languages of the periphery
« Reply #1 on: 22 September 2022, 13:29:49 »
They are all expounded upon in the Periphery States handbook and I believe in the MechWarrior 2nd Edition and perhaps later RPG material.

However, I dislike the choices they made and typically go with the Canopians speaking Portuguese because Space Brazil, Macau, or Goa sounds like a great place to be.

The Taurians and Outworlds Alliance both have a decent amount of Spanish flavor (Calderon and Avellar) so they speak Spanish, probably very different Spanish than each other but Spanish regardless.

I don't think the Rim Worlds Republic ever got the same treatment but you can look into some of the remnant planets in the Commonwealth and extrapolate.

pokefan548

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Re: languages of the periphery
« Reply #2 on: 22 September 2022, 13:59:13 »
Per the map presented in A Time of War circa 3075 (first language{s} is the official state language):
  • Taurian Concordat/Calderon Protectorate: English, Spanish, French
  • Magistracy of Canopus: English, Spanish, Greek, Romanian, Mandarin Chinese
  • Outworlds Alliance: English, Japanese, French
  • Marian Hegemony: English and Latin, German, Spanish, Greek
  • Circinus Federation: English, German, Spanish, Greek
  • Rim Collection: English, German, Scottish Gaelic, Italian, Greek
  • Hanseatic League: German, English, Spanish
  • Ummayad Caliphate: Arabic, English, Russian
  • Castillian Principalities: Spanish, German
Some others, such as the Tortuga Dominions, have no listed dominant language.
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cray

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Re: languages of the periphery
« Reply #3 on: 22 September 2022, 21:40:43 »
  • Ummayad Caliphate: Arabic, English, Russian
  • Castillian Principalities: Spanish, German

Portuguese is used in parts of the Castillian worlds, such as Granada, and the Arabic has odd origins. Per Touring the Stars: Granada...

"The Scorpions first discovered that the Umayyads—at least those who arrived in 2830—were scarcely Islamic and barely spoke Arabic. Their favored language was “slovenly English.” (The isolated Castilians saw Star League Standard English as a degenerate form of the English used in the early Terran Hegemony [which is when the Castilian settlers left Terra].)"

And:

"At the time, the new arrivals answered to “Last League Survivors” and “Camp 11 Survivors." ... In the end, the visitors and disaffected nobles used each other. The visitors sided with Castilian rebels to overthrow the don and declare the Umayyad Caliphate. (This was originally named the Republic of Granada at the urging of the visitors, but rebel Castilian nobles coined the names Umayyad and Umayyad Caliphate to improve the distinctiveness of their cause, ca. 2833.)"

and...

"The original Umayyad leadership (not the entire group) was built around a group of self-professed Muslims, but their version of Islam differed substantially from the religion described in Castilian libraries. (Indeed, contemporary Castilian commentators found the Umayyads were simply ignorant of most aspects of Islam, as if they had never been properly educated in it.) This core leadership used Arabic sporadically but appeared to do so poorly—it was more of a pidgin. It was the pro-Umayyad Castilians who later adopted and enforced Islam and library-based Arabic. The rebel Castilians’ goal was to create “a leadership apart,” a new political force recognizably dissimilar from Castilian loyalists."

And...

"Umayyad efforts to introduce Arabic added some loan words to “Umayyad Portuguese,” the most common language on the planet, while Arabic is primarily used by lingering Granadan elites."
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

**"A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not afraid of anything." --Wash, Firefly.
**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

pokefan548

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Re: languages of the periphery
« Reply #4 on: 23 September 2022, 08:10:51 »
Portuguese is used in parts of the Castillian worlds, such as Granada, and the Arabic has odd origins. Per Touring the Stars: Granada...

"The Scorpions first discovered that the Umayyads—at least those who arrived in 2830—were scarcely Islamic and barely spoke Arabic. Their favored language was “slovenly English.” (The isolated Castilians saw Star League Standard English as a degenerate form of the English used in the early Terran Hegemony [which is when the Castilian settlers left Terra].)"

And:

"At the time, the new arrivals answered to “Last League Survivors” and “Camp 11 Survivors." ... In the end, the visitors and disaffected nobles used each other. The visitors sided with Castilian rebels to overthrow the don and declare the Umayyad Caliphate. (This was originally named the Republic of Granada at the urging of the visitors, but rebel Castilian nobles coined the names Umayyad and Umayyad Caliphate to improve the distinctiveness of their cause, ca. 2833.)"

and...

"The original Umayyad leadership (not the entire group) was built around a group of self-professed Muslims, but their version of Islam differed substantially from the religion described in Castilian libraries. (Indeed, contemporary Castilian commentators found the Umayyads were simply ignorant of most aspects of Islam, as if they had never been properly educated in it.) This core leadership used Arabic sporadically but appeared to do so poorly—it was more of a pidgin. It was the pro-Umayyad Castilians who later adopted and enforced Islam and library-based Arabic. The rebel Castilians’ goal was to create “a leadership apart,” a new political force recognizably dissimilar from Castilian loyalists."

And...

"Umayyad efforts to introduce Arabic added some loan words to “Umayyad Portuguese,” the most common language on the planet, while Arabic is primarily used by lingering Granadan elites."
Interesting. Might be a good thing to ask the writers about, pretty clear conflict there.
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cray

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Re: languages of the periphery
« Reply #5 on: 23 September 2022, 08:37:35 »
Conflict how? Granada was expanding on ATOW's language references and clarifying some oddities of the Umayyad's origins.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

**"A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not afraid of anything." --Wash, Firefly.
**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

Frabby

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Re: languages of the periphery
« Reply #6 on: 23 September 2022, 09:29:40 »
As per BattleCorps story Trial of Faith, the abbot of the monks on St. Jean around 3050 is from Nueva Castile and his native language is "Neo-Portuguese"; he’s also fluent in Latin and Greek and speaks some Spanish, German, Dutch, and French.
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cray

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Re: languages of the periphery
« Reply #7 on: 23 September 2022, 10:43:59 »
As per BattleCorps story Trial of Faith, the abbot of the monks on St. Jean around 3050 is from Nueva Castile and his native language is "Neo-Portuguese"

That fits. I think Trial of Faith was mentioned during Granada's and Valencia's fact checking.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

**"A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not afraid of anything." --Wash, Firefly.
**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

pokefan548

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Re: languages of the periphery
« Reply #8 on: 23 September 2022, 13:04:58 »
Conflict how? Granada was expanding on ATOW's language references and clarifying some oddities of the Umayyad's origins.
Sorry, misread. That's on me :facepalm:
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Daryk

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Re: languages of the periphery
« Reply #9 on: 24 September 2022, 14:11:25 »
TtS FTW!  :thumbsup:

Metallgewitter

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Re: languages of the periphery
« Reply #10 on: 27 September 2022, 05:38:31 »
Could the old Rimworlds Republic have Greek as their primary language? The founder styled his realm after Greek city states and their old rank structure had greek sounding ranks which were later replaced by generic English rank names.

pokefan548

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Re: languages of the periphery
« Reply #11 on: 27 September 2022, 07:59:20 »
Could the old Rimworlds Republic have Greek as their primary language? The founder styled his realm after Greek city states and their old rank structure had greek sounding ranks which were later replaced by generic English rank names.
It was likely still English, especially once House Amaris started their long-con honeypot strategy on the Star League. To my knowledge, the only IS/Near Periphery states to not have English as their official language are the Draconis Combine and Capellan Confederation, though a few, such as the Lyran Commonwealth/Alliance and Marian Hegemony, do have two official languages.

My guess would be that the RWR's official language was English, but also had a very strong population of Greek-speakers, as well as some other languages such as German.
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BattleTech players: Throwing the baby out with the bathwater since 1984!
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"Poke isn't a real person, he's just an algorithm programmed by CGL to try and get people to try the aerospace rules." - Phantasm
"I want to plant the meat eating trees and the meat growing trees on the same planet! Watch that plant on plant violence!" - Sawtooth

Starfury

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Re: languages of the periphery
« Reply #12 on: 30 September 2022, 21:26:12 »
The Arano Confederation adds in Spabish, English, probably Portugese, Dutch, and Oceanic languages of various types, since it's a combination of the Carribean and Micronesia, Polynesia, and so on.  I'm still trying to figure out where all the Australians and Canadians went during the Diaspora, along with the African countries, because they seem to have disappeared anonst the inhabitants of BT space.

wanderer25

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Re: languages of the periphery
« Reply #13 on: 01 October 2022, 12:32:03 »
The Arano Confederation adds in Spabish, English, probably Portugese, Dutch, and Oceanic languages of various types, since it's a combination of the Carribean and Micronesia, Polynesia, and so on.  I'm still trying to figure out where all the Australians and Canadians went during the Diaspora, along with the African countries, because they seem to have disappeared anonst the inhabitants of BT space.


LC's Coventry province all the way down to  the FWL Circinian/MH/periphery border area. Basing this on the various planet names and the Conventry (the planet)
settlement history in Handbook house Steiner.

Prospernia

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Re: languages of the periphery
« Reply #14 on: 04 October 2022, 10:30:16 »
I was just thinking about this:

I'm reading a book about the Proto-Indo-European language, and the author mentions how it changed in a thousand-years and, for example, brings up how English has changed in a thousand-years; try going back in time and speaking in England; you wouldn't be able to understand them.  Even going back 500 years, it still would be difficult to comprehend.  So, the languages in Battletech have probably changed as well.

Most people in the Inner-Sphere live on isolated-worlds with limited communications; their languages will evolve into dialects and then into a separate language all together. Their probably was isolation during the Hegemony so languages started to diverge and then, the Star-League probably brought some unity and then the Succession-Wars probably changed everything.

Most likely, every world speaks their own language, with a House-Language, an easy language with few vocabulary is know, to communicate, like Medieval-Latin, and that's it.

AlphaMirage

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Re: languages of the periphery
« Reply #15 on: 04 October 2022, 11:02:09 »
Any planet with an HPG would likely speak Star League Standard since COMSTAR exists as a binding (yet divisive) force between them. That said outside of official communication you'd probably see a hodgepodge pidgin develop particularly on isolated worlds.

CVB

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Re: languages of the periphery
« Reply #16 on: 04 October 2022, 11:47:41 »
The widespread introduction of printing presses half a millennium ago has stabilized languages a lot, and I would expect electronic data storage and mass communication (radio and TV) to have added to that trend. We have little problem reading Shakespear today...
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glitterboy2098

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Re: languages of the periphery
« Reply #17 on: 04 October 2022, 12:42:49 »
The widespread introduction of printing presses half a millennium ago has stabilized languages a lot, and I would expect electronic data storage and mass communication (radio and TV) to have added to that trend. We have little problem reading Shakespear today...
and yet the pronunciation has changed enough that half his jokes and rhymes no longer are noticeable.

so some linguistic drift is going to be inevitable.
« Last Edit: 04 October 2022, 12:45:15 by glitterboy2098 »

CVB

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Re: languages of the periphery
« Reply #18 on: 04 October 2022, 15:09:29 »
Acknowledged. This seems to be even more pronounced  ;) in English with its strong Norman French influence than in many other languages, so Shakespeare wasn"t my ideal example   :-[
"Wars result when one side either misjudges its chances or wishes to commit suicide; and not even Masada began as a suicide attempt. In general, both warring parties expect to win. In the event, they are wrong more than half the time."
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I'm willing to suspend my disbelief, but I'm not willing to hang it by the neck until it's dead, dead, dead!

Prospernia

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Re: languages of the periphery
« Reply #19 on: 21 October 2022, 10:20:24 »
In Shalespeare's time, everyone talked like a pirate; languages have a thousand years to evolve; they're probably not speaking German in the Lyran-Commonwealth; they're speaking Lyrian.

cray

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Re: languages of the periphery
« Reply #20 on: 23 October 2022, 09:56:41 »
My guess would be that the RWR's official language was English, but also had a very strong population of Greek-speakers, as well as some other languages such as German.

After 2600, the Rim Worlds had very heavy immigration from the Terran Hegemony, which was an English-default nation (that also preserved countless Terran languages in daily use). Most of the Star League-era growth of the Rim Worlds came form Hegemony settlers, so that would've skewed the Rim Worlds' predominant languages.

In Shalespeare's time, everyone talked like a pirate; languages have a thousand years to evolve; they're probably not speaking German in the Lyran-Commonwealth; they're speaking Lyrian.

Right, and some drift has been noted. For example:

"The Scorpions first discovered that the Umayyads—at least those who arrived in 2830—were scarcely Islamic and barely spoke Arabic. Their favored language was “slovenly English.” (The isolated Castilians saw Star League Standard English as a degenerate form of the English used in the early Terran Hegemony.)"

The English of the 2300s was not the same as the English of the 2800s.

Heck, there's been noticeable drift in English spelling and word choice in my life. You don't buy doughnuts as often as donuts anymore.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

**"A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not afraid of anything." --Wash, Firefly.
**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

Frabby

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Re: languages of the periphery
« Reply #21 on: 23 October 2022, 14:40:09 »
There's even a meta-level to this:
Some real-world typos in BattleTech became canon, which is how New Haiti became New Hati.
Many sourcebooks employ cringeworthy butchered German, and I'm told other languages are equally mishandled in canon sources.
And Blaine Pardoe frequently cited linguistic drift when names popped up that seemed to be misspellings, such as the WarShip Bismark. Not sure if that counts as canon explanation though.
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CVB

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Re: languages of the periphery
« Reply #22 on: 23 October 2022, 14:50:39 »
Strange how language drift seems to rarely happen to most authors' native tongue... ;)
"Wars result when one side either misjudges its chances or wishes to commit suicide; and not even Masada began as a suicide attempt. In general, both warring parties expect to win. In the event, they are wrong more than half the time."
- David Drake

I'm willing to suspend my disbelief, but I'm not willing to hang it by the neck until it's dead, dead, dead!

butchbird

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Re: languages of the periphery
« Reply #23 on: 23 October 2022, 20:43:38 »
Strange how language drift seems to rarely happen to most authors' native tongue... ;)
.

But then, reading a language, even your own, after many centuries of evolution, would prove quite the straining experience when one merely want's to read "pulp military sci-fi" to escape for a while.

Real world example. I bought Marguerite de Navarre's "Heptaméron" about a year back. My interest had be piqued at the highest point after reading a few of the short stories contained whithin while I followed a course in french litteracy in the 16th century. I tried to read it, I really did, but about 10 years after my last read in such an archaic version of my native (and near exclusively used) tongue, I was unable to pursue. T'was like if I tried to read a spanish novel. Someday maybe I'll have the time to try again. My ego demands it.

Another example, easier to relate to and having more punch due to being on the english language and less time between writing and reading. I love Herman Melville. Read a translation of Mody Dick countless times and a while back I figured I'd try myself at reading "White Jacket" in the original version. I did manage it, but it was grueling even though a mere 150 aboutish years separated my reading from the writing.

Rare are those whom would have the willpower to try reading (a hypothetical) 31st century english.

Another comment while I'm at it. One must consider that through contact with other languages, words will thend to be use in the wring way, the semantics become twisted so as that a word loses its original meaning in the public mind. For example, english and french both use the word "administration" but the meaning is completely different in both languages. But constant exposure to the english language has made it so that the vast majority of french speaking people will use "administration" for its english meaning. On the top of my head I don't have a gallicism to point out to drive my point home but you get the idea.

So, even if syntax, grammar and all stay the same from the 21st to the 31st century, chances are words won't have the same meaning anymore.
« Last Edit: 23 October 2022, 20:54:46 by butchbird »