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Author Topic: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising  (Read 116327 times)

Rainbow 6

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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #570 on: 22 May 2022, 12:27:13 »
Thought i'd posted this already but couldn't find it so might have mis-remembered.

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/battlemechs/taurian-vindicator-1aa-rebuild/

My take on a rebuild of the -1AA have a couple of further ideas which i'll try to bash out and post as well.

Pondering Radish

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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #571 on: 20 August 2022, 13:09:16 »
Howdy everyone,

I'm new to the forum, and decided to stop by the thread I was most interested in. After reading a solid chunk on the Taurian Concordat and Calderon Protectorate from Sarna, I had some questions about where people expect the Bulls to go.

As far as the 3151 maps show the TauCon is the smallest that it has ever been with most worlds either taken by the FedSuns, annexed by CapCon, left with the Calderon Protectorate, or simply got sick of being threatened with nukes for raising concerns and became independent. On the diplomatic front a huge black mark on the nation was the alliance with the Word of Blake, and then how brutal fighting between the TauCon and FedSuns was during the Word of Blake.

It didn't get better the more that I looked.

SDI (Sterope Defense Industries) produces a massive amount of lasers, PPCs, autocannons, and LRMs for other contractors to use in weapon platform construction. SDI is gone with Sterope now an independent planet. While they might still make deliveries and honor contracts, thats one of the big five Taurian defense contractors no longer in the Concordat.

PPL (Pinard Protectorates Limited) lost all industry on Perdition which made the MAD-3R, PXH, Plainsman, Prowler, and Light SRM Carrier for Tau Con. The Bulls also lost the planet, and Organo which makes the Taurian Sabre Aerospace Fighters and the Organo Flight Academy. PPL only retained their MacLeod's Land and Pinard industries still in the Concordat as far as I can tell.

TTI's (Taurian Territorial Industies) Asterion BA, Trinity BA, Maultier, and Seydelitz production lines are on Sterope which is now independent.

Only VMI (Vandenburg Mechanized Industries) and WEI (Wingman Enterprises Limited) still all in TC. The Jihad left Taurian military production increasingly focused on RetroTech, which was a massive step back for TauCon. I would hope that 70 years of trying to fix that would help, but I'm not sure I believe that given the universe. Then when you tack on that most major Taurian military manufacturering c. 3151 is now within one jump of the new "Laconis Front" with CapCon, things get even more dire. There looks to be a real threat that the Taurian Concordat might lose the capability to effectively supply its own military if CapCon hits Pinard or New Vandenburg even just to raid and burn industry to the ground.

The Federated Suns have pushed CapCon back from New Syrtris c.3151, leaving the Pleaides once again firmly encirled by the FedSuns. It also seems that the Jihad and Dark Ages had the Bulls "liberating" the populace of the Pleaides Cluster while increasingly acting more like the tyrants they believe FedSuns to be. That in turn managed to keep an insurgency alive till at least 3145, which is not a great sign for further control of the cluster.

Reuniting with the Calderon Protectorate through marriage seems to be the focus for starting to heal the nation, but that's still trying to reunite two sides of a civil war. Marriage between untested rulers as the magic solution to bind the Concordat, Protectorate, and former Taurian worlds back together is also hopeful, and I'm not sure how well it will actually pan out.

CapCon expanding into the Concordat, Taurian worlds independent rather than be under a military junta, the Calderon marriage alliance still years away, and TauCon being short of allies makes me think of a nation dangling over an abyss. I seriously hope that the nation turns over a new leaf, and think that it would be cool to see the Bulls confonting the scars and consequences that long term paranoia (rather than healthy suspicion) has left on the nation. Heck, I kind of hope to see a limited TauCon and FedSun military action to push CapCon back now that the Confederation is a clear and present danger to the continued existence of the Concordat. Not sure that would ever happen, but when you've hit rock bottom the only way to go is up. Or die.

With Dominions Divided coming, my question for the thread is where do you hope TauCon will go from here and where you think it actually will go? Most important of all what would you do if you Protector Kaff Doru right now?

Baldur Mekorig

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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #572 on: 21 August 2022, 11:22:10 »
Howdy everyone,

I'm new to the forum, and decided to stop by the thread I was most interested in. After reading a solid chunk on the Taurian Concordat and Calderon Protectorate from Sarna, I had some questions about where people expect the Bulls to go.

As far as the 3151 maps show the TauCon is the smallest that it has ever been with most worlds either taken by the FedSuns, annexed by CapCon, left with the Calderon Protectorate, or simply got sick of being threatened with nukes for raising concerns and became independent. On the diplomatic front a huge black mark on the nation was the alliance with the Word of Blake, and then how brutal fighting between the TauCon and FedSuns was during the Word of Blake.

It didn't get better the more that I looked.

SDI (Sterope Defense Industries) produces a massive amount of lasers, PPCs, autocannons, and LRMs for other contractors to use in weapon platform construction. SDI is gone with Sterope now an independent planet. While they might still make deliveries and honor contracts, thats one of the big five Taurian defense contractors no longer in the Concordat.

PPL (Pinard Protectorates Limited) lost all industry on Perdition which made the MAD-3R, PXH, Plainsman, Prowler, and Light SRM Carrier for Tau Con. The Bulls also lost the planet, and Organo which makes the Taurian Sabre Aerospace Fighters and the Organo Flight Academy. PPL only retained their MacLeod's Land and Pinard industries still in the Concordat as far as I can tell.

TTI's (Taurian Territorial Industies) Asterion BA, Trinity BA, Maultier, and Seydelitz production lines are on Sterope which is now independent.

Only VMI (Vandenburg Mechanized Industries) and WEI (Wingman Enterprises Limited) still all in TC. The Jihad left Taurian military production increasingly focused on RetroTech, which was a massive step back for TauCon. I would hope that 70 years of trying to fix that would help, but I'm not sure I believe that given the universe. Then when you tack on that most major Taurian military manufacturering c. 3151 is now within one jump of the new "Laconis Front" with CapCon, things get even more dire. There looks to be a real threat that the Taurian Concordat might lose the capability to effectively supply its own military if CapCon hits Pinard or New Vandenburg even just to raid and burn industry to the ground.

The Federated Suns have pushed CapCon back from New Syrtris c.3151, leaving the Pleaides once again firmly encirled by the FedSuns. It also seems that the Jihad and Dark Ages had the Bulls "liberating" the populace of the Pleaides Cluster while increasingly acting more like the tyrants they believe FedSuns to be. That in turn managed to keep an insurgency alive till at least 3145, which is not a great sign for further control of the cluster.

Reuniting with the Calderon Protectorate through marriage seems to be the focus for starting to heal the nation, but that's still trying to reunite two sides of a civil war. Marriage between untested rulers as the magic solution to bind the Concordat, Protectorate, and former Taurian worlds back together is also hopeful, and I'm not sure how well it will actually pan out.

CapCon expanding into the Concordat, Taurian worlds independent rather than be under a military junta, the Calderon marriage alliance still years away, and TauCon being short of allies makes me think of a nation dangling over an abyss. I seriously hope that the nation turns over a new leaf, and think that it would be cool to see the Bulls confonting the scars and consequences that long term paranoia (rather than healthy suspicion) has left on the nation. Heck, I kind of hope to see a limited TauCon and FedSun military action to push CapCon back now that the Confederation is a clear and present danger to the continued existence of the Concordat. Not sure that would ever happen, but when you've hit rock bottom the only way to go is up. Or die.

With Dominions Divided coming, my question for the thread is where do you hope TauCon will go from here and where you think it actually will go? Most important of all what would you do if you Protector Kaff Doru right now?

Welcome to the Periphery side Pondering Radish!

Yours is a pretty good question actually. Now i will give you my own PoV from what i read from the books.

The TC touch rock botton in 3127 when the Protector at that time threatened to use nukes against a planet leaving the Concordat, and Doru took the power. Since then the guy is playing both the military and civilian aspect of ruling what is left of the TC while doing juggling on a rope, so to say, but looks like he was doing a good job. If you read the TROs, you see the TC is actually making mechs and machines with a tech level according to the current, with XL engines, DHS, ER lasers, and more advanced stuff like glaze armor for example. IIRC there was a line about TTI making new factories to compensate for what they lost in Sterope. And the CapCom front seems really quiet now that the CC invasion of the FS is at a pause, and Liao full attention is focused in the RoTS worlds (meanwhile some new things are developing badly for them in the last book).

Now, if you check Shattered Fortress, looks like the unification is something a lot of people were looking for, and even planets like Sterope will rejoin on the day of the weeding (3 August 3157). Now, i dont think the kids will be alone to rule the nation. Both Doru and Calderon seems like competent leaders, and i am sure both will act like advisers (mostly Doru, that seems is using the marriage to get his family into the traditional ruling family).

Now, as for the future, we still have to see what Dominions Divided would do to the TC, but i really hope the authors give the TC a break, and allows it to began its healing, and maybe retook some of the planets lost to Liao, or even finally make peace for once with the FS.
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DOC_Agren

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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #573 on: 21 August 2022, 22:19:53 »
It would be nice to see the TC finally catch good breaks, and get on the right side of things, instead of continuing the down slide.




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Elmoth

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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #574 on: 22 August 2022, 01:37:59 »
I hope so. Previous to them totally giving in to paranoia, they were my favourite SW faction.

Pondering Radish

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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #575 on: 23 August 2022, 19:58:25 »
Thanks for the welcome!


The TC touch rock botton in 3127 when the Protector at that time threatened to use nukes against a planet leaving the Concordat, and Doru took the power. Since then the guy is playing both the military and civilian aspect of ruling what is left of the TC while doing juggling on a rope, so to say, but looks like he was doing a good job. If you read the TROs, you see the TC is actually making mechs and machines with a tech level according to the current, with XL engines, DHS, ER lasers, and more advanced stuff like glaze armor for example. IIRC there was a line about TTI making new factories to compensate for what they lost in Sterope. And the CapCom front seems really quiet now that the CC invasion of the FS is at a pause, and Liao full attention is focused in the RoTS worlds (meanwhile some new things are developing badly for them in the last book).

I hadn't realized that the Taurian Concordat had managed to get that far forward to be honest. I was too busy being frustrated at how the Brahma's weapon design comes across as a jumbled mess and an inability to find an official miniature to realize that the Brahma production means TauCon can make 300 XL engines, ER medium laser, Streak SRMs, AMS, Case and double heat sinks. I also latched a bit too hard on the TauCon having to work with the Raven Alliance to manage to make the Cadaver, and took it to sound like TauCon was still reeling production wise from the Jihad.

Now, if you check Shattered Fortress, looks like the unification is something a lot of people were looking for, and even planets like Sterope will rejoin on the day of the weeding (3 August 3157). Now, i dont think the kids will be alone to rule the nation. Both Doru and Calderon seems like competent leaders, and i am sure both will act like advisers (mostly Doru, that seems is using the marriage to get his family into the traditional ruling family).

That does give me hope that from the way things look in Shattered Fortress that the writers are wanting to reunite the Taurian Concordat and the Calderon Protectorate. I am wondering what the major hurdle that the Bulls will face during reuniting, since this universe doesn't like nice things unless they dispense murder. Maybe Grossbach and its government throwing a hurdle or assassins at the new rulers?

It would be nice to see the TC finally catch good breaks, and get on the right side of things, instead of continuing the down slide.

I for one don't mind the downward slide the Bulls took during the Jihad and Dark Age. It was a lot of the negative sides of Taurian culture bubbling up to the forefront and forcing the nation to face it's issues. I feel like it give the Taurian Concordat a lot to confront going forward, and also gives the nation character in my opinion.

However, I do worry that allying with the FedSuns might be a step too far for the Taurian Concordat even now. Between a centuries old paranoia and hatred, the game of strategic weapons tag during the Jihad, and the entire issue of the Pleaides I'm not sure the FedSuns and TauCon could come together for more than a fleeting alliance during a military operation. Not allying with the FedSuns could have it's own issues down the line though if Alaric Ward can convince the Federated Suns to join his new Star League in exchange for military help with the Draconis Combine. The Taurian Concordat has a great record with Star Leagues and Successor states that are members of those Leagues.

What I would really like to see if I can't get an alliance is a decent medium trooper mech designed and manufactured by the ilKhan Taurian Concordat. Maybe a redesign of the Talos with current era tech?

Adventwolf

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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #576 on: 31 October 2022, 04:12:46 »
I could see Julian making some sort of deal with the Taurians in both the Concordant and Protectorate to help secure at least one of his borders. Maybe even buying some equipment and mechs from them to help rebuild his forces faster. But I doubt they would be able to come together to launch an attack on the Capellans even if it was as a distraction to help reclaim FedSuns and Taurian systems the Capellans stole. Just not enough trust on either side to make a stable push. Plus pretty sure Julian is trying to get a treaty or cease-fire in place on the Capellan front to move his focus to New Avalon and the Draconis Combine. So at least for now a joint attack with the Taurians on the Capellans isn't likely.

What I could see happening is that Julian lays the groundwork for a possible future attack with the recombined Taurian Concordant/Protectorate. To happen after the marriage has happened maybe as a "wedding gift" That gives them roughly 5-6 years to plan and train for the fight together so the Tuarians are ready to work with each other. And they can be played off as tension-lowering exercises and operations in the lead-up to reunification. As well as pirate smashing operations in the former Taurian sphere of influence to get more of the worlds to rejoin as well.
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Intermittent_Coherence

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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #577 on: 31 October 2022, 06:52:30 »
Oh god another state wedding to kick off a war against the CC.

pokefan548

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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #578 on: 31 October 2022, 08:04:23 »
Oh god another state wedding to kick off a war against the CC.
It's tradition. In fact, I hear the NACC is considering replacing "you may now kiss the bride" with "you may now steal from the Cappies".
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Adventwolf

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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #579 on: 31 October 2022, 13:44:24 »
It makes some sense. If the FedSuns and Taurians can agree and coordinate they can split the Capellans response by starting their individual attacks on separate ends in the first wave. Better if they stagger the invasions. Have the FedSuns hit in the coreward parts. And when the Capellans redeploy troops from other areas to the North have the Taurians hit their worlds in the South. Make the troops moving take more time to get to the fronts and maybe have some of them turn around to deal with each invasion. And if the FedSuns launch another wave near the Taurian front to hit the Capellans there in the back while they are fighting the Taurians. A way to make some sort of peace afterwards is if the FedSuns gave any Taurian worlds they conquered back to the Concordat instead of keeping them. Would make the deal transactional which is about the best we can hope for really.
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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #580 on: 01 November 2022, 21:49:29 »
Well we already saw some more Taurian gains with the joint production of the new Toros from the latest Shrapnel alongside the Calderon Protectorate.  Given that the Taurians also have access to IS Omnis in the ilClan era, I'd say somebody contacted them to help out, whether Capellan or Davion.  You don't just gain access to one the best designs in the game, the Avatar Omnimech because you opened up trade negotiations with them.  Either Julian really buried the hatchet and the Taurians are fighting Capellans (which would be sweet poetic justice given the Triple Alliance), or the Capellans decided they needed Taurian help against the Davions or even Clan Wolf. If the latter, that would be hilarious watching the Taurians fight against Clan Woof Woof and their various servant Clans.

I doubt that's the case though. 

Adventwolf

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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #581 on: 02 November 2022, 01:21:19 »
Well we already saw some more Taurian gains with the joint production of the new Toros from the latest Shrapnel alongside the Calderon Protectorate.  Given that the Taurians also have access to IS Omnis in the ilClan era, I'd say somebody contacted them to help out, whether Capellan or Davion.  You don't just gain access to one the best designs in the game, the Avatar Omnimech because you opened up trade negotiations with them.  Either Julian really buried the hatchet and the Taurians are fighting Capellans (which would be sweet poetic justice given the Triple Alliance), or the Capellans decided they needed Taurian help against the Davions or even Clan Wolf. If the latter, that would be hilarious watching the Taurians fight against Clan Woof Woof and their various servant Clans.

I doubt that's the case though.
Both the Wolf Empire and the "Star League" are far too distant for the Taurians to be fighting. It just doesn't make sense. And getting access doesn't mean you are fighting for a side. In fact getting access to the Avatar doesn't really need all that much it is part of the Inner Sphere's first attempts at making Omnimechs. So it is old but proven technology at this point. It is most certainly something that could be traded with others.

It is also unlikely that even if the Capellans offered it to the Taurians that they would accept. Fighting the FedSuns is what caused them their current problems and the leadership and population now that to be the case.

If Julian did give it to them then he might have come to some deal but it is by no means a burying of the Hatchet. The taurians have simply done too much for it to go away like that. Again he might have made a deal and some peace settlement to secure that flank but he isn't going to be able to get them to join in on the fighting right now without some massive incentives.
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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #582 on: 03 November 2022, 09:31:12 »
The interesting thing is that the Taurian concordat under Doru seems to have scaled back any attack against the suns. Heck when the Confederation ravaged the suns the concordat just watched. They even allowed supply runs in the small bubble of remaining Fedsuns territory go through unmolested. They either had sympath for the suns or they now hate the Capellans way more then the Suns. I mean the Suns only struck hard (and I mean hard when we see the Roughrider rampage during the Jihad) because the Concordat struck first. The Capellans though took what they wanted without any reason (and let's not forget how sun Tzu screwed the Taurians in the Trinity Alliance)

pokefan548

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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #583 on: 03 November 2022, 15:25:41 »
In the post-Jihad wrap-up, the Concordat and Protectorate actually entered something of an awkward, muted, half-willing partnership with the FedSuns—even going so far as to have a jointly-staffed WarShip. Now, they didn't just drop all hostilities, come together hand-in-hand, and sing Kumbaya, but they at least shared the agreement that their misgivings for each other wasn't worth turning the coreward Periphery and Capellan March into a cluster of irradiated, uninhabitable rocks. Taurian saber-rattling hardliners mostly accepted this mutual shift to maintaining peace as the Concordat had gotten a bit too aggressive during the Jihad, and now qualified as more than just an unstable annoyance on the Feds' coreward border—and despite the desire to see some peace the Feddies could and would have wiped most of the Concordat out.

Really, though, at the end of it all post-Jihad, the Feddies and Taurians were both just incredibly tired of fighting. The whole disaster with the Capellan March where the Haseks decided that it was long past time to purge the Capellans, with no care for how their actions affected the wider planning of the rest of the FedSuns, along with years of brutal fighting on New Avalon with an absentee First Princess having to sneak orders and encouragement through a network of protective agents, and finally of course large contributions to Stone's war effort had completely and utterly worn the Feddies out and left them quite war-weary. The Taurians fared little better, with a protracted, overextended war effort yielding at best utterly pyrrhic victories, the whole effort completely destroying the Taurian economy, all exacerbated by their former WoB allies turning out to be fair-weather friends. Both sides needed a break from fighting, due to both logistical strain and sheer exhaustion. Continuing their conflict simply was not an option, and would almost certainly produce more deserters than anything else.

And, well, when your mutual neighbor is the Capellan Confederation, which was still miffed about the whole Hasek situation, and had not-too-long-ago had a bad breakup with the Concordat, well... Keep your friends close, your enemies closer, and the enemy of your enemy closest.
« Last Edit: 04 November 2022, 09:18:04 by pokefan548 »
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VhenRa

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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #584 on: 17 November 2022, 09:02:14 »
The interesting thing is that the Taurian concordat under Doru seems to have scaled back any attack against the suns. Heck when the Confederation ravaged the suns the concordat just watched. They even allowed supply runs in the small bubble of remaining Fedsuns territory go through unmolested. They either had sympath for the suns or they now hate the Capellans way more then the Suns. I mean the Suns only struck hard (and I mean hard when we see the Roughrider rampage during the Jihad) because the Concordat struck first. The Capellans though took what they wanted without any reason (and let's not forget how sun Tzu screwed the Taurians in the Trinity Alliance)
Well, it is rather notable when you look through the profile for Doru that he enlisted to fight the Capellans on the Laconis Front... when underage.

Now if you look at his age... that would put the Laconis Front invasion... sometime around 3106-3107ish. IE: Immediately after the Victoria War.

So it certainly sounds like the Cappies got a little sore from not exactly covering themselves in glory fighting the FedSuns and decided to go make themselves feel better by beating on the Taurians for a bit.

Intermittent_Coherence

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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #585 on: 18 November 2022, 23:23:24 »
You don't just gain access to one the best designs in the game, the Avatar Omnimech because you opened up trade negotiations with them.  Either Julian really buried the hatchet and the Taurians are fighting Capellans (which would be sweet poetic justice given the Triple Alliance), or the Capellans decided they needed Taurian help against the Davions or even Clan Wolf.
The Avatar design is owned by Luthien Armor Works. If the Taurians are producing it, that may mean Yori's making money on the side selling to a faction that may or may not come to blows with either a traditional rival in the Davions or a rabid dog needing to be put down like the Capellans.

pokefan548

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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #586 on: 20 November 2022, 08:33:07 »
Mhm. The Dracs have a long history of selling and licensing designs to the Concordat at a reasonable price (see the Slayer, for example).
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Adventwolf

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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #587 on: 20 November 2022, 18:39:48 »
The Avatar is also available to damn near every state already so again it doesn't point to any faction specifically making an alliance.
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VhenRa

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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #588 on: 22 November 2022, 23:30:43 »
By that point the Avatar is produced by IIRC Cappies, FedSuns, FWL and I think Lyrans.

But not the Dracs...

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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #589 on: 23 November 2022, 00:20:02 »
the Avatar and alot of the first gen IS omnis were licensed out to other people. Or maybe they are second Gen, idr. The avatar, sunder, and black hawk
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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #590 on: 23 November 2022, 11:11:10 »
Luthien Armor Works was rebuilt after the Jihad, so they're making Omnis again.  Maybe they're getting them through the Magistracy via the CC or the  FWLas I figure the DC would need all of their stuff for fighting Ghost Bear, the Raven Alliance and Davion. I know the Taurians have to be getting some form of discount on the Clan stuff they've bought.  Or the TC just decide to attack the CC and steal their Omnis like the Marian Hegemony did from the FWL.

Metallgewitter

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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #591 on: Today at 09:55:20 »
the Avatar and alot of the first gen IS omnis were licensed out to other people. Or maybe they are second Gen, idr. The avatar, sunder, and black hawk

If I remember correctly the Blackhawk and Avatar were licensed to Coventry Mechworks in the Lyran Alliance. Not sure if CMW was allowed to sell to everyone in the IS though. Comstar certainly bought some though the FedSuns might be on the banned list. The Confederation and Free Worlds might be too depending on Katherine's mood. Of course after the Jihad that might be different.

 

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