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Author Topic: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising  (Read 120887 times)

ArkRoyalRavager

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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #540 on: 01 November 2021, 06:20:48 »
Jeffrey Calderon was just too good to let live. Everything has been going Liao's way since Op Guerrero.

Longstrider

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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #541 on: 01 November 2021, 20:24:16 »
It does mention in Periphery 2E that there is a fringe sentiment in 3058 that is already complaining that the MoC is passively going to absorb the TC - but in reading FM: Periphery set in 3063, it seems like there are both those Taurians wary of any foreign entanglements and those who are wary only of Davion entanglements but will pal up with literally anyone else if they can pretend it helps their perceived Davion problem, and Brenda Calderon's notes in FM:P implies to me that Shraplen managed to leverage the anti-Jeffrey sentiments of both those camps even though they'd also disagree with each other.

For all that I'm inclined to beatify Jeffrey, his administration badly bungle the NCR, and turned what could have been a useful partnership between the Taurians and Canopians to rein in the Capellans into a situation the fallout meant the Taurians were distinctly the junior-est partner AND pandered to the paranoiac element of Taurian society to very bad ends for everyone involved. For all that it seems the Canopians have been fine in that alliance, it seems like the Capellans have benefited the most from their alliance too.

Intermittent_Coherence

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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #542 on: 02 November 2021, 01:02:52 »
Sun Tzu's plan was always to get the Canopian and Taurian militaries for the meat grinder and the Taurian industry to feed his war effort. The Canopians' only buy in was to dupe the Taurians. Their military wasn't much to look at by itself and they didn't exactly have a lot of industry. Taurus was the real prize to Sun Tzu and they hatched a plan to rope the bull in by hook or by crook.

Starfury

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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #543 on: 02 November 2021, 05:08:00 »
And the grand irony of it all is that the Canopians came out the true winner. Sun Tzu was able to gain back some of the Chaos March, only to lose part of it to the Word of Blake and then the Republic of the Sphere. They had to rebuild their military again in order to take it back. The Canopians and Liao intermarried, the Duchy of Andurien allied itself to Liao and Canopis again, and the Taurians lost most of their territory, competent leadership, and military from their own paranoia. It took two more crazed leaders for them to finally get their act together, and have even fought alongside Davion in the Dark Age against Liao raids.

Longstrider

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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #544 on: 02 November 2021, 14:26:23 »
I'm not quite convinced that the Magistracy got much out of the Capellan entanglements - though maybe I'm not quite grokking what the strategic goals of the Magistracy leadership are. Perhaps the thing they really want is just to be left to their own devices, in which case they might come out of it swimmingly as long as Sun-Tzu's successors don't try to Capellify the Magistracy.

But yeah, no doubt it, the Taurians came out of that significantly worse off, and in no small part due to their own choices.

Starfury

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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #545 on: 04 November 2021, 05:32:06 »
The Magistracy wants what any power wants: stability and more power. The Magstricacy usually aims for the long game, and given the nature of Liao to short circuit after thirty or forty years, they're in a position to help control the most powerful of the IS states (Dark Age/ilClan anyway) and enhance their own safety as well.  The Taurians ended up falling prey to the failed king paradox and are trying to get things fixed.  I hope they do, because there's going to be an uptick in pirate activity again when the remnants of the ROTS military scatter to the four winds. 

Metallgewitter

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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #546 on: 04 November 2021, 08:38:51 »
The Magistracy wants what any power wants: stability and more power. The Magstricacy usually aims for the long game, and given the nature of Liao to short circuit after thirty or forty years, they're in a position to help control the most powerful of the IS states (Dark Age/ilClan anyway) and enhance their own safety as well.  The Taurians ended up falling prey to the failed king paradox and are trying to get things fixed.  I hope they do, because there's going to be an uptick in pirate activity again when the remnants of the ROTS military scatter to the four winds.

I'd bet that most of the RAF either ends up in FedSuns army or in FedSuns employ as mercenaries. With the ones stuck on Terra eventually joining the Wolves. The Taurians seem on the path of slowly reconciling with the Calderon Protectorate and given the vast amount of unaffiliated planets between them might grow back to what it was as long as their leadership can keep the "Davion bad" paranoia in check

And for the Magistracy: they are flip-floppers. They can adapt to the changes in power. That might make them look fickle but they aren't Just take a look at the Reunification War: they fought the SLDF hard and with tricks but they didn't resort to weapons of mass destruction. Sure their opponent was just as restrained but it spared the Magistracy the destruction the other Periphery powers experienced (the Outworlds being the exception since THAT was solely the SLDF's fault)

Starfury

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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #547 on: 04 November 2021, 15:31:00 »
Especially since many of those planets are leftover from the poor Aurigan Coalition.

Intermittent_Coherence

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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #548 on: 05 November 2021, 04:00:38 »
Sure their opponent was just as restrained but it spared the Magistracy the destruction the other Periphery powers experienced (the Outworlds being the exception since THAT was solely the SLDF's fault)
in both the Taurian and Outworlds fronts it was the SLDF that kicked off warcrimes o'clock.
The Magistracy got off lightly because their principal adversary was a FWL nobleman who was determined to wage a clean war.

Metallgewitter

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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #549 on: 06 November 2021, 10:39:38 »
in both the Taurian and Outworlds fronts it was the SLDF that kicked off warcrimes o'clock.
The Magistracy got off lightly because their principal adversary was a FWL nobleman who was determined to wage a clean war.

Well the Concordat was somewhat different. They already fought outside the rules but after Robsart the last restraints were shaken of.

Intermittent_Coherence

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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #550 on: 08 November 2021, 01:02:41 »
Well the Concordat was somewhat different. They already fought outside the rules but after Robsart the last restraints were shaken of.
There was a lot of strategic trickery and maneuvering but it was a clean war until the SLDF thought bombarding a defenseless populace was a good idea just because they took more losses than expected against the navy they'd already driven off anyway.

Seriously, between Forlough and Robsart, the TH high command demonstrated a depressingly dehumanised view of Periphery denizens everywhere.
« Last Edit: 08 November 2021, 01:04:20 by Intermittent_Coherence »

Metallgewitter

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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #551 on: 08 November 2021, 04:08:19 »
There was a lot of strategic trickery and maneuvering but it was a clean war until the SLDF thought bombarding a defenseless populace was a good idea just because they took more losses than expected against the navy they'd already driven off anyway.

Seriously, between Forlough and Robsart, the TH high command demonstrated a depressingly dehumanised view of Periphery denizens everywhere.

True though as the war went on the actions on both sides only reinforced the views (until the CO's of the Outworlds Front and Taurian front changed for the last time. Then the wars became more principled again). Funny thing: when the war against the Outworlds started there were some SLDF commanders who took great care to fight as clean as possible (well not the DCMS expedition force especially later on the Rim worlds Front *cough* Nightwish *cough* But Fourlough lost it when the Pitcairn Legion wrecked his forces and he was shackled by the High command when they diverted his transports to Davion forces in the Concordat

Longstrider

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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #552 on: 10 November 2021, 23:45:49 »
There was a lot of strategic trickery and maneuvering but it was a clean war until the SLDF thought bombarding a defenseless populace was a good idea just because they took more losses than expected against the navy they'd already driven off anyway.

Seriously, between Forlough and Robsart, the TH high command demonstrated a depressingly dehumanised view of Periphery denizens everywhere.

Yeah, the babykiller should have hanged, certainly but that acoorn didn't fall far from the tree of Ian Cameron. Sure, the Hegemony's propaganda corps couldn't bear the thought that a civilized society existed outside of their grasp, so they murdered 100 million Taurians to change reality to fit their ideology - but the Outworlders? The 12 million farmers, luddites, and pacifists lost thereshow that the Star League was not just jealous and insecure, but also bloodthirsty on top.

Flieger

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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #553 on: 07 March 2022, 21:02:59 »
Hey Taurians,

I just found out the Concordat used Vindicator AAs since the 3060ies.
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/3421/vindicator-vnd-1aa-avenging-angel

Is there a backstory? Were they another 'gift' by the Confederation? And is it not a little late for such a Mech...?


MDFification

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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #554 on: 08 March 2022, 10:21:38 »
Well the Concordat was somewhat different. They already fought outside the rules but after Robsart the last restraints were shaken of.

Ian Cameron declared before hostilities even began that the Star League wouldn't be complying with the Ares Conventions. There was never any intention to fight a limited war - the plan Cameron had in mind was a rapid victory by the most expedient means available, and that meant utter ruthlessness. Unfortunately for everyone, the SLDF massively underestimated the Periphery. So the "short, victorious war" fought without restraint ended up being a grinding war of attrition, fought with total war tactics because you can't put total war back in it's box once you've broken the taboo.

Ironically, the Concordate's strength ended up crippling it for centuries to come. If they'd lost the will or the ability to fight quickly, it all would have been over with. Instead, Cameron all but burned Taurian society to the ground, because he couldn't possibly have cared less for the human cost of his ambitions.
« Last Edit: 08 March 2022, 10:23:54 by MDFification »

Deadborder

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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #555 on: 09 March 2022, 04:11:29 »
Hey Taurians,

I just found out the Concordat used Vindicator AAs since the 3060ies.
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/3421/vindicator-vnd-1aa-avenging-angel

Is there a backstory? Were they another 'gift' by the Confederation? And is it not a little late for such a Mech...?

There's no backstory as such. If you wanted to think about it too hard, it could simply be the Cappies unloading unwanted older 'Mechs onto their newfound allies to help them build up their forces.
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MarauderD

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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #556 on: 09 March 2022, 10:53:36 »
I would just assume that the Taurians got access to that older tech as part of the Triple-whatever their agreement was called in the 60's before the Jihad.  Is the Vind-AA really much to write home about for the Taurians?  They've always had good mech industry there.

Crimson Dynamo

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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #557 on: 09 March 2022, 16:42:54 »
I would just assume that the Taurians got access to that older tech as part of the Triple-whatever their agreement was called in the 60's before the Jihad.  Is the Vind-AA really much to write home about for the Taurians?  They've always had good mech industry there.

It's widely seen as garbage. The CC donated some to the Free Rasalhague Republic when it was formed largely as a way to dump them off. In the post 4th SW-era CC, what does that tell you when they're donating something your way? I'd assume Taurian Avenging Angels would be a similar case of the CC doing the bare minimum to supply the TC.
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Intermittent_Coherence

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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #558 on: 10 March 2022, 21:52:29 »
Note that the Taurians are one of the few people probably able to keep an army of such running and likely supplied the engines for them to begin with. Not a lot of manufacturers churning out 225FEs.

Starfury

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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #559 on: 12 March 2022, 18:35:16 »
As others have said, they gave the Taurians more V-AAs as both a sign of aid and raw cash to upgrade their own armies. The Taurians ended up losing the most from the Trinity Alliance, but it did give them access to higher technology along with stealth armor. The Marshal 2C and other 3060 to Early Republic era designs for the Taurians refect this. 

What I love is the continued move of the Taurians towards the French cavalry idea of fast attack unit backed by trooper mechs.  You have fast heavies and Mediums that get support from Royal era trooper mechs like the T-bolt, the Marauder 2R, and the Warhammer 6Rb and 7A.  Their Dark Age list is one of my favorites to peruse and build forces from.  Now if we could only get a Level 2 version of the Toro from the Calderons, a new build version of the Talos, and a variant upteched Devastator DV1, I'd be a happy man.

Flieger

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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #560 on: 13 March 2022, 14:32:38 »
Is the Vind-AA really much to write home about for the Taurians?  They've always had good mech industry there.

Certainly not, though I do see a single possibility in which the AA is useful: training units. While the Taurians have a respectable Mech industry, having units for training donated by a foreign power allows your industry to focus on combat units, front line and territorial defense. 
It is also quite telling that the Capellans do not even need those training Mechs anymore, their industry can provide all with ease; they are that powerful.

Also, modifying the AA to be a viable combat unit even in the 60ies is not too difficult. DHS alone would allow to fully armour the Mech and help a lot, while stuff like FF or CASE would just be icing on the cake. Or switch the LRM for RL.


Note that the Taurians are one of the few people probably able to keep an army of such running and likely supplied the engines for them to begin with. Not a lot of manufacturers churning out 225FEs.

That is an interesting point. I could see the Taurians cannibalizing the whole AA fleet if it fits their needs.

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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #561 on: 14 March 2022, 04:26:20 »
Note that the Taurians are one of the few people probably able to keep an army of such running and likely supplied the engines for them to begin with. Not a lot of manufacturers churning out 225FEs.

Do the Taurians produce 225 Fusion Engines at all? Because there's not a lot of units that use them
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Liam's Ghost

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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #562 on: 14 March 2022, 13:36:51 »
Do the Taurians produce 225 Fusion Engines at all? Because there's not a lot of units that use them

The Taurians produce the Sabre aerofighter, which uses a 225 engine.

Actually, since almost everybody uses and produces the Sabre, it's probably a pretty common powerplant, even though there isn't much of a variety of things you can use it on.
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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #563 on: 15 March 2022, 03:59:15 »
The Taurians produce the Sabre aerofighter, which uses a 225 engine.

Actually, since almost everybody uses and produces the Sabre, it's probably a pretty common powerplant, even though there isn't much of a variety of things you can use it on.

Well there you go. I didn't know that at all.
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Flieger

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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #564 on: 15 March 2022, 04:42:15 »
In that case I can totally see the Taurians canibalizing the AAs.

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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #565 on: 15 March 2022, 15:14:21 »
Well there you go. I didn't know that at all.

I had to google it then confirm by looking it up in the books. It really doesn't feel like an engine a lot of people would have a use for.

(Of course now I'm contemplating what I could get away with dropping one in a Commando frame)
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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #566 on: 31 March 2022, 03:03:20 »
In that case I can totally see the Taurians canibalizing the AAs.

Honestly the Vindicator AA's biggest issues are the insanely thin armor. but that can be fixed with star league tech, slap double heat sinks and FF armor on the thing and you've got a reasonably decent medium mech, nothing special but solid eneugh for periphary duty

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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #567 on: 31 March 2022, 12:00:33 »
If you have that SL tech earmarked for more urgent purposes, you can still salvage the AA easily enough.  I'd echo the suggest to rip out the LRM/5, replace it with one or two RL/10 for a bit of on-demand oomph.  Also pull out that worthless small laser which mostly just kills pilots on ejection.  That gives you a decent chunk of armor to slather on and puts you comfortably back in the range where you can see off pirates convincingly.

Intermittent_Coherence

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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #568 on: 23 April 2022, 17:53:07 »
The Taurians produce the Sabre aerofighter, which uses a 225 engine.

Actually, since almost everybody uses and produces the Sabre, it's probably a pretty common powerplant, even though there isn't much of a variety of things you can use it on.
Not everybody. There isn't a factory in Liao space for one. Or FWL. Probably why they went with TC and MoC, to get indirect access to those two.
Do the Taurians produce 225 Fusion Engines at all? Because there's not a lot of units that use them
In addition to the Sabre, the TC also produces the Quasit, which is a militiamech that also uses a 225SFE. So the TC produces it for both aerospace and mech applications.
If you have that SL tech earmarked for more urgent purposes, you can still salvage the AA easily enough.  I'd echo the suggest to rip out the LRM/5, replace it with one or two RL/10 for a bit of on-demand oomph.  Also pull out that worthless small laser which mostly just kills pilots on ejection.  That gives you a decent chunk of armor to slather on and puts you comfortably back in the range where you can see off pirates convincingly.
The small laser is the one in the arm. The one in the head is the medium. Frankly even swapping to DHS would allow near full armor without FFA.
« Last Edit: 23 April 2022, 17:55:01 by Intermittent_Coherence »

DOC_Agren

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Re: Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising
« Reply #569 on: 24 April 2022, 09:10:33 »
honestly there may not be a factory building Sabres there, but I bet there are small shops turning out copies of the AK of space fighters or at least where you can get spare parts
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