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Author Topic: 22 years to colonel/tai-sa/sang-shao?  (Read 824 times)

bobthecoward

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22 years to colonel/tai-sa/sang-shao?
« on: 11 January 2021, 01:04:14 »
I think the rule in the US is 22 years minimum to become O6. I plotted a couple major battletech militaries and it seemed pretty consistent that O6 was a colonel (or equivalent) and command of a regiment.

Do you think 22 years is a good stand-in for battletech?

2ndAcr

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Re: 22 years to colonel/tai-sa/sang-shao?
« Reply #1 on: 11 January 2021, 02:09:58 »
 I think for an average, it works. I can see exceptions to the rule though. Battlefield promotions, exceptional service which gets a rank jump.

 Lieutenant - 2 years at rank
 Captain - 4 years at rank
 Major - 6 years at rank
 (These would be minimum time at rank before eligible for next promotion under normal conditions IMO)

 I mean, General Kerensky was 38 (IIRC) when he was put in command of the entire SLDF. Never held a command higher than a Regiment.

Nav_Alpha

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Re: 22 years to colonel/tai-sa/sang-shao?
« Reply #2 on: 11 January 2021, 07:08:34 »
Thing to remember about BT ranks;

Nobility: While the Lyrans get all the stick for their “social generals”, if your name is Kurita, Davion, Hasek or one of the multitude of warrior noble families, you’ll climb the ranks damn fast.
We see wack example of  Victor Steiner and Hohiro both getting jumped straight to battalion command after graduating from their academies.

Mechwarriors as knights: Seemingly because of the nature of Mechwarriors being modern knights, some CO obtain a rank and then stay there forever.
You see regimental commanders like Jerome Stewart and such commanding their regiments for 20 years after taking over the job in their early 40s.
Then you get Special units like Sorensen’s Sabres and whatnot, where it’s considered an honour to stay as a company commander for 40 odd years because of the prestige of the company you’re running.

I think the rule in the US is 22 years minimum to become O6. I plotted a couple major battletech militaries and it seemed pretty consistent that O6 was a colonel (or equivalent) and command of a regiment.

Do you think 22 years is a good stand-in for battletech?

This sounds accurate. As I said - there’s the above odd exceptions.


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smcwatt

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Re: 22 years to colonel/tai-sa/sang-shao?
« Reply #3 on: 11 January 2021, 11:21:37 »
I would flip your time in rank for Capt and Maj, 2nd ACR. Captains stall for a bit while they get jammed into junior staff positions for professional development, before moving on to Major.  The biggest hurdle is the Captain to Major promotion due to the limited number for Major slots compared to Captains. In Canada, the minimum time in rank to get to Colonel is around 15 years, but that is if everything lines up perfectly with no delays, there are vacancies at all levels and person is at the top of everything.

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Dahmin_Toran

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Re: 22 years to colonel/tai-sa/sang-shao?
« Reply #4 on: 11 January 2021, 12:33:46 »
You have to remember that some ranks are hereditary.

Hellraiser

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Re: 22 years to colonel/tai-sa/sang-shao?
« Reply #5 on: 11 January 2021, 12:53:08 »
Isn't there also 2 ranks of Lt. that you have to go through in the US Army,  or are you saying its a total of 2 years to go from 01 to 03?
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2ndAcr

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Re: 22 years to colonel/tai-sa/sang-shao?
« Reply #6 on: 11 January 2021, 14:40:37 »
2nd Lieutenant before 1st Lieutenant......way back in my days, a 2nd Lieutenant usually got promoted to 1st Lieutenant about a year in. Course this was back in 87-93 in my active duty days.

So you could say 3 years minimum for Lieutenant before eligible to Captain. All my above are bare minimum time frames. When I was in, to be eligible for promotion to E5 from E4 without a waiver was minimum 1 year time in grade as an E4. But I got waived and had my E5 right at the 3 year mark time in service. Had my PLDC early E4 and then boarded for E5 shortly after. Hit promotable for E6 at 5 years in service, got a BNOC slot, went then got RIF'ed in 1993 shortly after graduation from BNOC. Got my E6 when I reenlisted in Guard in 2004.

mikecj

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Re: 22 years to colonel/tai-sa/sang-shao?
« Reply #7 on: 11 January 2021, 17:29:48 »
The goal of ROPMA is to pin Major around the 11 1/2 year of service
17th year of service to LTC (Year Gear 2001 pinned in 2017)
2021 will be their first look to full bird, 2020 was the below zone look
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Hellraiser

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Re: 22 years to colonel/tai-sa/sang-shao?
« Reply #8 on: 11 January 2021, 17:35:58 »
Yeah, those are clearly bare minimums as you said.

I was in 90-95 & remember the unit I went to after basic/ait was newly formed, and you had to board or wait for max time for every promotion since there were so many fresh from basic members.
Hundreds of privates fighting to get the 2 PFC promotion slots the unit was allotted.
Same issue with E3 to E4 & Slots for PLDC were going to 5 year Corporals, not new Spec4s.  Fun times.



MikeCJ,  what is ROPMA?
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

2ndAcr

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Re: 22 years to colonel/tai-sa/sang-shao?
« Reply #9 on: 11 January 2021, 18:08:26 »
Corporals, bah, we considered Corporals as duds, not good enough to make the jump from Spec 4 to Sgt.

I remember one, they pinned Corporal on, he had less time in grade than 2 other Spec 4 in his squad. He was what we called a profile king, anytime something had to be done, break track, go to the LTA for some easy field time, he had some appointment to go to. Sucked ass overall.

I was lucky, 11B and 19D, we always had shortages or slots open. Most had their E4 before they got halfway thru 2nd year in service. Newbies came in E2 90% of the time and we E3 on them before they finished their 1st year. If he came in at E1, he got his E2 within a month of getting to the unit. Could not have any slick sleeves, get some skeeter wings on them collars.

Colt Ward

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Re: 22 years to colonel/tai-sa/sang-shao?
« Reply #10 on: 11 January 2021, 18:38:57 »
Some of that depends on unit and culture at the time- at least for lower enlisted.

My father was a nuke E6 early 80s, said he knew his career got slowed down when he ignored the hints that when he was in port he should be coaching the base little league team or doing other 'community volunteer' minded stuff.  During that period the only time I know he was home was when he was involved in the construction of a new boat, mostly b/c I was later told that was the case with a finger to his plank holder certificate.

My brother-in-law got stuck on the same base cycling deployments, threatened his promotability but he just headed off to Korea late '19 to get off that base.  Got his bump to E8 before arriving in Korea which adjusted the duty slot over there . . .

Then when I got medical separation from the Guard, my JAG rep (cause it was that kind of fiasco) wanted to know why I wasn't promoted after looking at my file & awards.  Kind of boggled her mind they would BOHICA me when I told her I had taken PT tests annually for the 5 years since the accident (back injury, humvee accident . . . but you should have seen the other guy), but b/c none of them were qualifying I was not doing 1 event.  Why didn't you take the alternate event?  What alternate event?  Same unit my buddy went to Iraq, ended up with a stress related health condition that made him non-deployable . . . so they would not let him go to BNOC, b/c of the condition . . . but here, sign this waiver and you can go back to Iraq with us!  His IRL job had him transfer across the country, new unit . . . 'sure you can go to school' . . . promoted . . . huh, wonder when he 'retires' -have to ask.

A lot of it comes down to the unit culture.  I had former Marines as Guard NCOs . . . lmao, they did not hand out awards for breathing.  But some of my friends in Iraq said everyone below a certain rank got a ARCOM, above that a bronze star- so you guessed, guys who were back at the FOB most the time got the higher award.  Also heard the . . . . okay, none of the adjectives I want to use can be on this forum . . . First Sergeant (turned Sgt Major when he stepped off the plane) and a officer only went out on convoys until they had a nearby boom, then put each other in for a purple heart.

AFAIK, my unit was lucky in the two trips only one guy eared a purple heart- he took a round over the collar of his ICBA, through his neck and out his jaw.  Pretty boy got his face put back together and seemed OK after.
« Last Edit: 11 January 2021, 18:43:56 by Colt Ward »
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Daryk

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Re: 22 years to colonel/tai-sa/sang-shao?
« Reply #11 on: 11 January 2021, 19:30:26 »
Officer promotions are a lilttle bit different... at least in my service.  The general rule is if you have a heartbeat, you'll make O-2 after two years, and after four, O-3 (which I ALSO did, despite my less than stellar performance at O-2).  I even made O-4 "on time", at around 10 years.  My comeuppance came at O-5.  Even though I'd done everything my new community had asked me to do up to that point, I was passed over.  And despite busting my ass the next year, I was passed over a second time.  That by itself wasn't enough to escape the staff tour I was in, despite the promises I'd been made, but I did manage it and was passed over a THIRD time while deployed to the land of sand (where I earned a mid-tour JSAM and a Bronze Star, which for those who don't know is a Meritrorius Service Medal where people are shooting at you).  THAT is what it took to make O-5 the FOURTH time up (and pinned at 17 and a half years).  After that though, all was forgiven, and I made O-6 on time (after about 2-3 tours... I made O-5 at the beginning of my tour after Baghdad, and was selected for O-6 in my second/third O-5 tour, depending how you count, at 25 years, which was 4 years late... I pinned about six months later).  I'll never see Flag rank, but I will go home with Eagles on my collar.  One more tour to go, and I'm working to shape that into something that will move the levers of power at the interagency level.  I'll be able to retire with a clear conscience if I can achieve that.  We'll see how it goes...

TL;DR: Yeah, 22 years + or -1 is about right for O-6...

Hellraiser

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Re: 22 years to colonel/tai-sa/sang-shao?
« Reply #12 on: 11 January 2021, 19:50:19 »
Some of that depends on unit and culture at the time- at least for lower enlisted.

/snip

Yeah, I saw a lot of that too.   UnitA - This will never happen  v/s  UnitB - We do this all the time, your in.

I actually had my Platoon Sgt who was also Company Master Gunner pull me in to his office & say he was taking my slot to Air Assault School.
Because, and I quote,  "I'm an E6 of 12 years trying to make E7 and your an E4 getting out in 6 months".
I'm thinking, wow, I've only wanted to go to Air Assault school since before I joined & was psyched to be going the following month, your so cool, I'm totally convinced to re-enlist now.

3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Daryk

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Re: 22 years to colonel/tai-sa/sang-shao?
« Reply #13 on: 11 January 2021, 19:51:51 »
That's how they get ya...

Colt Ward

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Re: 22 years to colonel/tai-sa/sang-shao?
« Reply #14 on: 11 January 2021, 20:18:20 »
I actually had my Platoon Sgt who was also Company Master Gunner pull me in to his office & say he was taking my slot to Air Assault School.
Because, and I quote,  "I'm an E6 of 12 years trying to make E7 and your an E4 getting out in 6 months".
I'm thinking, wow, I've only wanted to go to Air Assault school since before I joined & was psyched to be going the following month, your so cool, I'm totally convinced to re-enlist now.

Yeah . . . and he totally convinced you to re-enlist, right?

The E8toE9 found out someone was getting out as soon as they got back stateside- got stop-loss'd when we got the word we were deploying- and went to try to convince him to re-enlist.  Gave him the normal blather, I am not even sure he made the tax arguments about the bonus money- notice how the deployments never give you cover from the IRS?  They make you spend 11 months overseas but is never a calendar year which would let you keep more of that money in your pocket?  Nope, going to pay you more for deploying, but hahahaha the IRS is going to get it back.

ANYWAY . . . that weasley MF asked the guy to write up a list of why he was not re-enlisting so they could discuss it.  I never saw it, just heard about it . . . word got around, and he got help.  A LOT of help.  I think it was 5 pages of notebook paper and had over 400 reasons, #1 was Sgt Major V.  The gutless bailed as quickly as possible.

Did one of those 'anonymous' unit surveys . . . long time guys filled out the blank space front and back, name/dating incidents, and lol, we left our contact information for more details.  No one heard crap.
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Daryk

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Re: 22 years to colonel/tai-sa/sang-shao?
« Reply #15 on: 11 January 2021, 20:36:43 »
My wife had a First Sergeant worse than that back in the day, but that's a story for a bottle of liquor (not beer)...

Colt Ward

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Re: 22 years to colonel/tai-sa/sang-shao?
« Reply #16 on: 11 January 2021, 23:17:39 »
My wife had a First Sergeant worse than that back in the day, but that's a story for a bottle of liquor (not beer)...

Yeah . . . my 'first' First Sergeant I was set to go to Iraq in '03 with (would be his 2nd time, did Desert Storm) . . . he was retiring when we got back, and IIRC the battery's Captain already had word on his promotion.  No games, no politic'ing BS . . . check the boxes, get stuff done, take it serious b/c it would get serious over there . . . loved that guy.  We worked hard, performed to hit the criteria, and he gave us the time off when duty hours were over.  The HQ battery, had no such luck- their First Sergeant was our future First Sergeant and later the battalion's Sergeant Major Mickey Mouse.

When I think of Lyran Social Generals, I see that gutless puke.
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mikecj

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Re: 22 years to colonel/tai-sa/sang-shao?
« Reply #17 on: 11 January 2021, 23:27:24 »

MikeCJ,  what is ROPMA?

http://dopma-ropma.rand.org/

Sorry, I was a reservist back when and tend to call things by the name I learned it.  I still refer to ARPERCEN, PERSCOM (RC & AC HRC respectively) etc.

This website contains accumulated information about the Defense Officer Personnel Management Act (DOPMA) and Reserve Officer Personnel Management Act (ROPMA) policies and practices.

The military services manage their officer corps with the primary goal of fulfilling roles and missions that support the national security strategy. Within that broad goal, they also manage their officers to provide them with individual opportunities and a reasonable quality of life, in a cost-effective way. Officer management occurs within a framework of law, policy, and practice. If one of the services wishes to alter its management of military officers, its ability to do so depends on what governs the specific activity. Changing a law requires Congressional and Presidential action, typically a lengthy process. Changing a service policy practice can happen much more quickly.
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Romo Lampkin could have gotten Stefan Amaris off with a warning.

Daryk

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Re: 22 years to colonel/tai-sa/sang-shao?
« Reply #18 on: 12 January 2021, 05:14:07 »
Indeed... hence things like stop-loss.

Hellraiser

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Re: 22 years to colonel/tai-sa/sang-shao?
« Reply #19 on: 12 January 2021, 10:27:11 »
Yeah . . . and he totally convinced you to re-enlist, right?

.....I am not even sure he made the tax arguments about the bonus money- notice how the deployments never give you cover from the IRS?  They make you spend 11 months overseas but is never a calendar year which would let you keep more of that money in your pocket? 


.....Did one of those 'anonymous' unit surveys . . . long time guys filled out the blank space front and back, name/dating incidents, and lol, we left our contact information for more details.  No one heard crap.

Yeah, No, as if the school thing wasn't enough when the re-up recruiter contacted me & we met they had no bonuses or incentives of any kind.  I couldn't even PCS if I didn't reup for a full 4,  a 2 year extension would just leave me at the same unit.....
It was after Desert Storm, the military was in a downsizing phase, so no bonus for Active duty but bonuses for switching to Reserves.
So reserves & college was the way to go.

And I love that survey part,  lol,  we get those in private industry every year & nothing ever seems to change, LMAO.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

mikecj

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Re: 22 years to colonel/tai-sa/sang-shao?
« Reply #20 on: 12 January 2021, 12:13:10 »
Yup, I've seen plenty of "investigations" come back "unfounded" only to see the same person do it again at a higher rank.

There are no fish in my pond.
"First, one brief announcement. I just want to mention, for those who have asked, that absolutely nothing what so ever happened today in sector 83x9x12. I repeat, nothing happened. Please remain calm." Susan Ivanova
"Solve a man's problems with violence, help him for a day. Teach a man to solve his problems with violence, help him for a lifetime." - Belkar Bitterleaf
Romo Lampkin could have gotten Stefan Amaris off with a warning.

Colt Ward

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Re: 22 years to colonel/tai-sa/sang-shao?
« Reply #21 on: 12 January 2021, 12:42:09 »
Yeah, the surveys were funny . . . had a couple pages of fill in the bubble about conditions, then you had like a page and a half at the end for comments.  It was done while a lot of my battalion was in Iraq for the 2nd time, so the guys filling it out were either newbies who came in as they were training up, broke (non-deployable) folks, or people command did not want to deploy.  So I was sitting at the table with my buddies who went to Iraq last time, mob'd with me in '03 too, and a new guy who was sharp (made E6 a couple years ago and done his own trips to Iraq and Afghanistan) . . . all the new guys had blank comment sections.  Guys who had been in were laughing as they crammed in every incident- like my friend put his story about not going to the school to promote but could sign a waiver to go to Iraq.  I know I threw on the bit where SMaj V chewed guys out who still had the old camo covers for the old kevlar, because it was not 'uniform' with the guys who got back from Iraq.  Never mind it was what supply issued (and therefore NOT the guys responsibility) . . . and that he did not care they did not have the helmets offering the same protection and comfort.  Screw having the gear standardized, he was pissed his battalion formation out in the boonies of a training area did not look uniform.

I want to say it was some touchy feely question about life in the service and what happens to make you not want to re-enlist.  I know one of mine was 'being given the duties of E5 so the unit passes ARTEP w/o promotion.'  But yeah, I know private industry does the same thing . . . had one job where they had 5 evaluating criteria, you would get rated and could comment back.  I would max everything but 1 criteria, and in the response field would provide a statistical analysis about why that criteria was flawed . . . basically it relied on the sale price of something rather than the conversion rate and while they looked a daily average value, during that day that value's average would change because of local laws- to the tune of a 60% decrease in average value.  I worked nights, which meant even if I outperformed my coworkers in conversion from the morning I could never match the value b/c of dealing with different state laws.


ANYWAY . . . back to the OP . . . reasonable IMO for armor or infantry.  NOT for mechs . . . because mechs are the prestige branch and are commonly the choice of nobility then you get other things besides career track and performance affecting promotion.  I honestly think you will get the more extremes of stories . . . frex, a mostly incompetent CO who KNOWS he/she needs help for admin/tactical command/etc and so hinders a very effective XO from being promoted away- because then how would their unit look?  what happens to their reputation if they did not have someone to replace that XO?  Think Shawshank Redemption, where the CO blocks the promotions (or freedom) of the XO to keep their 'tool' in place.

Or a officer makes a enemy . . . and finds not only can they not get promoted, they also cannot transfer to another regiment.

Or command has decided someone will NEVER be promoted.  When I joined my command, there was a guy who was a E4 . . . prior service active duty for a handful or years (not sure how many).  When I got out?  He was still a E4 ten years later.  AFAIK he always passed his PT test (middling results) and passed his rifle qual . . . until it changed in '04 or '05 his biggest problem was they would never give him a slot to go to the E5 school.  IIRC he was also positioned in the TO&E in a E3 slot, not a E5 slot (I sat in one as a E4 for several years), the whole time.  After PLDC was no longer a requirement for promotion they STILL prevented him from getting promoted until about the end of 2008, when there was a organizational shuffle for sending most of the battalion to Iraq the second time.  He got promoted in December because it slipped through the system . . . and then decided to drive off without paying (what I heard) at the base gas station in January.  Demoted back down to E4 . . . he spent like something over 10 years as a E4 b/c the command structure for the BN actively kept him from getting promoted.  When I was separated, he was still in the ranks as E4 . . . and never to be promoted again.

Honestly, think of the job you had with the most political maneuvering and expect to see the dynamics in play among mechwarrior ranks.
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bobthecoward

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Re: 22 years to colonel/tai-sa/sang-shao?
« Reply #22 on: 12 January 2021, 13:27:48 »
What about during something like the amaris civil war?

mikecj

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Re: 22 years to colonel/tai-sa/sang-shao?
« Reply #23 on: 12 January 2021, 13:51:44 »
Survive & get promoted.

The flow of academy graduates stopped with the Coup as did a lot of "career enhancing" moves.  Units get reorganized, disbanded, or filled with survivors from disbanded units.  Lots of opportunities.
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"First, one brief announcement. I just want to mention, for those who have asked, that absolutely nothing what so ever happened today in sector 83x9x12. I repeat, nothing happened. Please remain calm." Susan Ivanova
"Solve a man's problems with violence, help him for a day. Teach a man to solve his problems with violence, help him for a lifetime." - Belkar Bitterleaf
Romo Lampkin could have gotten Stefan Amaris off with a warning.

Colt Ward

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Re: 22 years to colonel/tai-sa/sang-shao?
« Reply #24 on: 12 January 2021, 14:10:13 »
Big war vs border skirmishing war . . . well, war time has a tendency to open up opportunities for advancement into field grade officers.  Custer (who btw would be a good example for Lyran Social Generals) was IIRC one of the youngest (brevet) brigadier generals ever at 23 . . . but he got that (after being bottom of his class) b/c of proximity to senior officers.

Btw, that was roughly a year after graduating West Point.

So yeah, Aramis War, 1SW, 2SW, FCCW, Jihad, DA war . . . all of them will have field grade officers dying to have underlings promoted into their shoes.

Civil Wars are really bad about this, b/c as the beginning each side has files that help identify the commanding officers on the other side.  IE, that 8 dropship force landing on your planet?  Colonel Dimwitted is known to use the LCAF Flapping Duck as his dropship for the regiment staff and their mechs.  Guess which dropship is the priority target for the defending ASF, SC and CF?

Flapping Duck is destined to be a crater.
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smcwatt

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Re: 22 years to colonel/tai-sa/sang-shao?
« Reply #25 on: 13 January 2021, 13:43:45 »
Canada had a 27 year old Brigadier in WW2, so young senior officers outside of the aristocracy is not unheard of.

SMc.

Hellraiser

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Re: 22 years to colonel/tai-sa/sang-shao?
« Reply #26 on: 13 January 2021, 15:01:16 »
think you will get the more extremes of stories . . . frex, a mostly incompetent CO who KNOWS he/she needs help for admin/tactical command/etc and so hinders a very effective XO from being promoted away- because then how would their unit look?  what happens to their reputation if they did not have someone to replace that XO?  Think Shawshank Redemption, where the CO blocks the promotions (or freedom) of the XO to keep their 'tool' in place.
I've see this quite a bit in life, heck, sadly, I'm living proof right now of that XO, where my boss kept me close & the people he sent away moved up the ladder to better positions.

It doesn't have to even be fully malicious, sometimes its just lack of opportunity, management looks good if their people are good and they like you doing that good job for them.

I've seen bosses actually ENDORSE some of their worst people for posting to different areas or promotions so they can get rid of them.
I guess that's easier than the HR trouble of firing the worst performing people.
« Last Edit: 13 January 2021, 15:05:18 by Hellraiser »
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AlphaMirage

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Re: 22 years to colonel/tai-sa/sang-shao?
« Reply #27 on: 13 January 2021, 16:50:54 »
I've seen bosses actually ENDORSE some of their worst people for posting to different areas or promotions so they can get rid of them.
I guess that's easier than the HR trouble of firing the worst performing people.

Yes, the Dilworth maneuver is very much a thing in any kind of hierarchy

 

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