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Author Topic: End of the Dark Age?  (Read 3197 times)

vaderi

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Re: End of the Dark Age?
« Reply #120 on: 23 February 2021, 07:18:09 »
in the IlClan period, we KNOW the outcome, and it's not just knowing the outcome but also that the outcome was predictable WITHOUT knowing it, given Alaric's genome and Clan affiliation being what they are, and the condition of the other states in the now, it's an inevitability curve, there's really not a lot that can be used for dramatic purposes unless the writers focus HARD on the people trying to resist the Wolf conquest (which ends up being depressing, since that much work going into people whom are outright predestined to lose...)

that time period ends up being uninteresting for anyone who isn't a Wolf fanboy. why? because there's literally no reason to be vested in any other faction.

Why are you still here if you've already seen the entire future history of Battletech? Especially if you aren't a Wolf fanboy who is the only kind of person allowed to have any interest in the IlClan era.

I could probably word it kinder, but if you're no longer into the story then why are you attacking anyone who is?
« Last Edit: 23 February 2021, 07:36:50 by vaderi »
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Dahmin_Toran

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Re: End of the Dark Age?
« Reply #121 on: 23 February 2021, 12:01:08 »
Why are you still here if you've already seen the entire future history of Battletech? Especially if you aren't a Wolf fanboy who is the only kind of person allowed to have any interest in the IlClan era.

I could probably word it kinder, but if you're no longer into the story then why are you attacking anyone who is?

Totally cannot agree more. As a Capellan/Combine/Smoke Jaguar fan, the future is bright for all of Battletech.

GreekFire

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Re: End of the Dark Age?
« Reply #122 on: 23 February 2021, 12:37:59 »
I've seen many, many movies and read many books that begin with the end.
It very rarely ruins the story being told.

I have trouble believing the few snippets we know about the 3250 setting will ruin the various ilClan storylines as a result.
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nckestrel

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Re: End of the Dark Age?
« Reply #123 on: 23 February 2021, 13:36:33 »
27 BC: Roman Empire is created.
1806 AD: There is still a Holy Roman Emperor.

Nothing interesting happened in between those two dates.  One long, boring story.
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Cannonshop

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Re: End of the Dark Age?
« Reply #124 on: 23 February 2021, 14:25:10 »
27 BC: Roman Empire is created.
1806 AD: There is still a Holy Roman Emperor.

Nothing interesting happened in between those two dates.  One long, boring story.

your exaggeration there ignores a lot of context y'all.

For example, the HRE wasn't ruled by a descendant of Romulus...or Sulla, or Caesar, wasn't headquartered in rome, and so on.  whereas we get pretty explicitly that the ilClan rules from Terra, and that the other states are either subservient, or absorbed.  the HRE didn't even include the capital of the EASTERN roman empire, it was in the germanic provinces, and could be gently termed a 'rump state'.

and you went well over 1000 years difference, whereas we're looking at 100 years difference.

AND the tech remains static, where it did not between 27 BCE and 1806.  This was across-the-board.  Still using Jumpships, still using battlemechs, still using the same names, language (Latin stopped being the language of the HRE long before 1806), and still modeled on the same political and organizational structure (unlike the HRE vs. Roman Empire).

There were also viable external threats in the period you cite, there are none in the ilClan era.  Everyone else is minus long range communication or logistics capacity, with inferior weapons and magically incompetent military, political, and economic leadership.

The majority of the Inner Sphere states are already set up to fall apart and fall easily and with very little effort.  This is what I mean by 'highly predictable'-the Free Worlds can't stay united by nature an structure.  Teh Cappies are blunderers led by a lunatic, the Combine is poised on a civil war to hamstring the first competent leader they've had since Theodore, and the Lyrans don't even have full control of their capital, while their entire economy has a singular weakness named 'Gibbs'-one strike and the Commonwealth is, effectively, done.  Non-Viable, not capable of recovery.  An archipelago with no shipbuilding industry, thus no means to maintain itself.

« Last Edit: 23 February 2021, 14:26:44 by Cannonshop »
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nckestrel

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Re: End of the Dark Age?
« Reply #125 on: 23 February 2021, 15:12:13 »
For example, the HRE wasn't ruled by a descendant of Romulus...

And who is the ruler in 3250?
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Cannonshop

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Re: End of the Dark Age?
« Reply #126 on: 23 February 2021, 15:35:44 »
And who is the ruler in 3250?

the texts suggest another wolf-ward-steiner-davion, though I suppose it could be a Kerenskywardsteinerdavion.

either way, it's pretty explicitly the Khan of the Wolves and I doubt they'd relinquish the Steiner-Davion heritage.

but beyond that, the mechanisms by which the system functions are explicitly Clan mechanisms making that the endstate dominant system with Wolf being the endstate dominant clan, and in control of the rest of the Inner Sphere, which puts them also under the Clan system, which pretty much defines how they got there.  You used the HRE, but the HRE didn't even follow the FORMS of the Roman Empire beyond the name itself...which didn't last, becoming the Austro-Hungarian empire before balkanization.

To make it fit, your HRE in 1806 would need to cover everything the Roman Empire covered, including Britain, have a Senate, (albeit as a rubber stamp for the Emperor) the Emperor would have to rule with absolute power, and be selected in the same fashion, and everyone in Europe (and the near-east) would need to be using Latin as the language of business and government.

Oh, and it would have to be done within a single century, not over 1000 years.

What I'm telling you, is your equivalency isn't equivalent.

Part of the problem, is that the Clan system is one of those fictional constructs that can only exist in a universe founded on literary causality.  Using real-life history doesn't work as a basis for comparison unless your fictional universe closely follows real-world cause and effect. 

Battletech has giant walking robots, instantaneous FTL travel, and borrows a lot from 1980s anime for its physics, while heavily leaning on idealistic fantasy for its political structure.

The problem there, is that unlike in reality, in fiction, everything has to be internally consistent, and when you have exceptions to how reality works, you have to explain it explicitly in the story, as part of the story.

What was set up for ilClan laid out an internally consistent set of conditions-the outcome is, therefore, extremely predictable and doesn't leave much, if any room for surprises until after the 3250 report.

effectively, by bookending like that, it makes everything between 3150 and 3250 'filler'.

cheer up, I had the same issue with the Jihad once the improbability of the ROTS rolled out-they staged for a much nastier war than Catalyst was able to deliver, which was part of my decade or so 'finding something else to do'.

They had to fill that space, and so the war got a lot less brutal in order to give the impression it could go any way other than it did, and in order to leverage the results already seen in the clickky game's setting.

thus, the designated losers of the Jihad had to be very powerful-when not seen on stage.

In THIS case, it was set up for an easy walk BEFORE Hour of the Wolf, and there really aren't any factors that make it NOT an easy walk AFTER.

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nckestrel

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Re: End of the Dark Age?
« Reply #127 on: 23 February 2021, 15:44:37 »
the texts suggest another wolf-ward-steiner-davion, though I suppose it could be a Kerenskywardsteinerdavion.

either way, it's pretty explicitly the Khan of the Wolves and I doubt they'd relinquish the Steiner-Davion heritage.

Feel free to point out what explicitly says that, I cannot find it.
Alaric Ward is born 3111.  He presumably won't make it to 139 years old.   Alaric doesn't have children, the Clans don't have inherited titles.  I find it extremely unlikely, even if the Wolves rule in 3250, that it's a Ward-Steiner-Davion or Kerensky-Ward-Steiner-Davion as ilKhan.
Is Ward setting up a "hereditary" Empire?  That would be a huge story in itself.
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Re: End of the Dark Age?
« Reply #128 on: 23 February 2021, 15:52:03 »
It may not be explicitly stated, or even true, but it would not be unprecedented. I mean, in 3050, half the Inner Sphere was ruled by the Steiner-Davions under the old hereditary system. In 3151 the ilClan is ruled by a Steiner-Davion who has come up from a totally different system. So it's not like a hundred year gap hasn't been bridged by a genetic non-dynasty before.
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Cannonshop

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Re: End of the Dark Age?
« Reply #129 on: 23 February 2021, 16:16:35 »
Feel free to point out what explicitly says that, I cannot find it.
Alaric Ward is born 3111.  He presumably won't make it to 139 years old.   Alaric doesn't have children, the Clans don't have inherited titles.  I find it extremely unlikely, even if the Wolves rule in 3250, that it's a Ward-Steiner-Davion or Kerensky-Ward-Steiner-Davion as ilKhan.
Is Ward setting up a "hereditary" Empire?  That would be a huge story in itself.

The entire Clan SYSTEM is just as hereditary as the nobility in the Inner Sphere.  It's a hereditary oligarchy, true, but compare your lists-they reave regularly and add bloodnames rarely.  It's already been on a course for a single hereditary line rulership.

a simple comparison of bloodnames at the start, versus at the present, should suggest that, especially when indexed against populations. *(populations under control grows, numbr of bloodnames shrinks)

Second thing, is that in the metagame, Steiner-Davion has the trait 'Always on the winning side' (except when fighting itself).

the odds do not favor an IlKhan in the ilClan era NOT being one of three names: Kerensky, Ward, or Steiner-Davion.

Why? genealogy is a big part of the setting's underlying rules, there's an old joke about the six degrees of davion, showing how that family's pretty much tied into all the surrounding families including Liao and Kurita. 

Thus, it's predictable that the ilKhan/First Lord will either BE a direct Stiener-Davion, or be a relative.

« Last Edit: 23 February 2021, 16:19:14 by Cannonshop »
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nckestrel

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Re: End of the Dark Age?
« Reply #130 on: 23 February 2021, 18:07:31 »
Prediction does not equal explicitly stated.

Is BattleTech predictable?  I can give you that.
Is everything you stated about 3250 a fact, no.
They could predict 3350 or 3450 or 2557 just as easily as 3250. 

When BattleTech gets to 5032, there will still be BattleMechs, JumpShips, Steiners and Davions and Liaos and Wolves and Jade Falcons.  Maybe some Blakists even.  And somebody asking about the Wolverines still.
If you want a story or era that doesn't have those, I'd wonder what about it is going to be a BattleTech story.
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Re: End of the Dark Age?
« Reply #131 on: 23 February 2021, 19:53:28 »
I love how people think the Steiner-Davion genetics will continue. The first time the scientist try to use Alarics legacy and discover a complete lack of the Ward genome there is a good chance Alarics legacy will be considered a tainted gene line. This is the same thing that got the Goliath ascorpions into trouble after the WoR.
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FaithBomb

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Re: End of the Dark Age?
« Reply #132 on: 23 February 2021, 20:24:42 »
I love how people think the Steiner-Davion genetics will continue. The first time the scientist try to use Alarics legacy and discover a complete lack of the Ward genome there is a good chance Alarics legacy will be considered a tainted gene line. This is the same thing that got the Goliath ascorpions into trouble after the WoR.

Problem is, he is the boss man in a might-makes-right culture. So they're just as likely to be like "Hey wow, this combo made an awesome leader, let's do some more of that stuff!"
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Re: End of the Dark Age?
« Reply #133 on: 23 February 2021, 20:33:07 »
Problem is, he is the boss man in a might-makes-right culture. So they're just as likely to be like "Hey wow, this combo made an awesome leader, let's do some more of that stuff!"

If I'm Alaric and I want to get ahead of the issue, I'd just use my fancy ilKhan power that lets me make new Bloodhouses for Whatever Reason I Feel Like and create a "Steiner-Davion" bloodname, the first of which goes to... me.


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CJC070

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Re: End of the Dark Age?
« Reply #134 on: 23 February 2021, 20:33:35 »
27 BC: Roman Empire is created.
1806 AD: There is still a Holy Roman Emperor.

Nothing interesting happened in between those two dates.  One long, boring story.

But how did the Roman Empire stay on top.  It commanded the largest army and hired mercenaries to keep the peace.  If (and to me it is a big if) all the IS clans followed Alaric he might have a strong power base.  Most of the clans seem to be wait and see, the CHH is preparing to fight the Wolves, and a majority of the Republic forces are pointing towards the other Houses.  Earth may be the centre of a hundred years of war.

Ruger

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Re: End of the Dark Age?
« Reply #135 on: 23 February 2021, 21:45:05 »
I love how people think the Steiner-Davion genetics will continue. The first time the scientist try to use Alarics legacy and discover a complete lack of the Ward genome there is a good chance Alarics legacy will be considered a tainted gene line. This is the same thing that got the Goliath ascorpions into trouble after the WoR.

Supposedly, there is at least some Ward in his genetics.

Ruger
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Re: End of the Dark Age?
« Reply #136 on: 23 February 2021, 22:34:29 »
Supposedly, there is at least some Ward in his genetics.

Ruger
There is. Otherwise the location of the McKenna's Pride would not have been given to him by Vlad's secret computer program when he entered Terra for VSD's funeral.

Sartris

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Re: End of the Dark Age?
« Reply #137 on: 23 February 2021, 22:39:54 »
It’s fully on brand for this community to take strands of plot and spin it into steel cable-certain timeline determinism for a full century forward. That was the only definitive outcome of all of this.

Bravo

truetanker

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Re: End of the Dark Age?
« Reply #138 on: 23 February 2021, 23:39:16 »
It’s fully on brand for this community to take strands of plot and spin it into steel cable-certain timeline determinism for a full century forward. That was the only definitive outcome of all of this.

Bravo

So, what your saying is that Stone comes back, again!?!

WOOT for the Narf!


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Re: End of the Dark Age?
« Reply #139 on: 23 February 2021, 23:46:10 »
It’s fully on brand for this community to take strands of plot and spin it into steel cable-certain timeline determinism for a full century forward. That was the only definitive outcome of all of this.

Bravo

Must have been the Wolverines! Wait...or was it the Home Clans? WAIT! What if the Wolverines have ABSORBED the Home Clans?!
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truetanker

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Re: End of the Dark Age?
« Reply #140 on: 23 February 2021, 23:49:01 »
Must have been the Wolverines! Wait...or was it the Home Clans? WAIT! What if the Wolverines have ABSORBED the Home Clans?!

 :popcorn:

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Cannonshop

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Re: End of the Dark Age?
« Reply #141 on: 24 February 2021, 00:54:03 »
Prediction does not equal explicitly stated.

Is BattleTech predictable?  I can give you that.
Is everything you stated about 3250 a fact, no.
They could predict 3350 or 3450 or 2557 just as easily as 3250. 

When BattleTech gets to 5032, there will still be BattleMechs, JumpShips, Steiners and Davions and Liaos and Wolves and Jade Falcons.  Maybe some Blakists even.  And somebody asking about the Wolverines still.
If you want a story or era that doesn't have those, I'd wonder what about it is going to be a BattleTech story.

what I'm saying is that they've created a situation where they're going to have to break something to get it out again.  painted the plot into a corner, and so on.

and it really wasn't necessary.

With the Jihad, it was necessary becuase of how Weismann and co. framed Dark Age-they HAD to softball it with plenty of least-likely-outcomes and a certain amount of overt 'people cease acting like people' to make it work...because they HAD TO thanks to what Weismann and the Wizkidz did.

this time, they didn't need to do it.  The order was in for ilClan and it could've been...well...

The Author crammed a series worth of material into a single book, and that ended up with some weird outcomes that kinda prevents anyone from being viable except Clan Wolf for...well, yeah.

some of it kind of had to happen-to keep warships extinct, for example, everyone has to get their shipyards gone, but that leaves nations with neither communications (thanks to the implied 'hyperspace terrain effect is permanent' from Fortress) nor a reasonable ability to maintain shipping in nations that are essentially archipelagoes of islands you can't march from one to the next on foot.

except, of course, for the Wolf Empire, which has plenty of shipping now, plus an unassailable capital (should've made that irony quotes but whatever).

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FaithBomb

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Re: End of the Dark Age?
« Reply #142 on: 24 February 2021, 01:19:37 »
I just have more faith in TPTB than to think they would paint themselves into such a corner without a plan to get out of it. Just because we cannot see it, doesn't mean it does not exist.
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Re: End of the Dark Age?
« Reply #143 on: 24 February 2021, 03:43:17 »
I just have more faith in TPTB than to think they would paint themselves into such a corner without a plan to get out of it. Just because we cannot see it, doesn't mean it does not exist.

to be honest, Faith, I hope you're right. 
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FaithBomb

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Re: End of the Dark Age?
« Reply #144 on: 24 February 2021, 14:08:21 »
to be honest, Faith, I hope you're right.

I'm just going off of their recent track record. The launch of the dark age was an unmitigated disaster story wise that was foisted upon everyone by WizKids and their attempt to rebrand the game for 10 year-olds. But IMO, once they were 'free' from that restriction, they did a really good job rescuing the timeline on both ends. The Jihad and early Republic were handled and fleshed out well, and the Dark Age was rescued into something that was once again BattleTech as opposed to an almost entirely different universe. We're at a point now where the days of the Click Age have been totally expunged and we have grand, sweeping changes across the Sphere and lots of opportunities for speculation and exploration.
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