Register Register

Author Topic: House Battlemechs ownership  (Read 2786 times)

kaliban

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 425
House Battlemechs ownership
« on: 07 October 2021, 13:59:38 »
Not considering mercenaries but the battlemechs that serves to each of the succession houses: Who owns the mechs? Do they belong to their pilots or the houses? What is the role of the academies that train the mechwarriors? Do the parents pay tuition fees to get their children trained to pilot their mechs later?

I don't want to make it over complicated but does these mechs have a "mech title" like a car? Just curious if this is explained anywhere in the sourcebooks or novels.

Kovax

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2386
  • Taking over the Universe one mapsheet at a time
Re: House Battlemechs ownership
« Reply #1 on: 07 October 2021, 14:14:22 »
There are several answers to this question.  First, in 3025, a lot of ancient 'Mechs are owned by the various nobles, whose landholdings may be granted only under condition that they contribute X amount of units temporarily to the House military when called upon.  Other 'Mechs are owned by the Houses, with a mix of lesser-nobility and non-noble Mechwarriors at the controls.  A noble or wealthy individual or family will very often pay to have one or more of their offspring trained, and the Houses may train promising individuals of various backgrounds as well.  This varies a bit from House to House.

The Houses' most prestigious formations would typically consist of mostly noble-born Mechwarriors who have signed on for long service with the House, typically second sons or daughters who would in all probability not be called to take over the family fief upon the death of their parents.  Their options in life would be to either join the military and hope to be granted a fief of their own, or else become "Dispossessed".  The mix would include at least a few Mechwarriors from other situations as well.  The regional and local formations would include a lot more "owner-operator" nobles called up for service as needed.

As the timeline progresses and 'Mech production increases several-fold, the mix shifts increasingly toward House-owned equipment, with the nobility taking more and more of a back seat.
« Last Edit: 07 October 2021, 14:19:22 by Kovax »

Metallgewitter

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 476
Re: House Battlemechs ownership
« Reply #2 on: 08 October 2021, 08:15:01 »
As the timeline progresses and 'Mech production increases several-fold, the mix shifts increasingly toward House-owned equipment, with the nobility taking more and more of a back seat.

Would House Daviopn under Hanse be an exception? From what I understood is that he created the Training battalions to funnel "common-born" (or more likely soldiers who were too poor to actually enter one of the academies) Mechwarriors into his army in order to weaken the grip of the nobles on his army. Of course the increase in Mech production also gives more poer to the state since they buy and hold them instead of a person outside their control

Kovax

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2386
  • Taking over the Universe one mapsheet at a time
Re: House Battlemechs ownership
« Reply #3 on: 08 October 2021, 09:18:56 »
Before that, there wasn't enough production capacity up to around 3025 to do that.  Hanse Davion may have been slightly ahead of the trend, but an increase in 'Mech production was already starting to take hold.  Note that a few new designs began to appear shortly after that point: the Wolfhound, Hatchetman, Raven, Cataphract, and so on, more new designs in under a decade than had been introduced in the preceding two centuries.  A few non-noble trainees from wealthy families were even allowed to buy their way into the training academies, to help fill the additional cockpits.

The recovery of the Star League data core on Helm further accelerated the rate of recovery, and the number of Battlemechs began to increase significantly from there forward.  That triggered a need for a large number of additional Mechwarriors to pilot them, and more than one House began looking for ways to train a lot more non-noble candidates who showed promise, without sparking a revolt by their own nobles who were about to be rendered a lot less relevant.  There were still a few shakeups and revolts in House Kurita over it.

five_corparty

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 786
Re: House Battlemechs ownership
« Reply #4 on: 08 October 2021, 13:57:48 »
Before that, there wasn't enough production capacity up to around 3025 to do that.  Hanse Davion may have been slightly ahead of the trend, but an increase in 'Mech production was already starting to take hold.  Note that a few new designs began to appear shortly after that point: the Wolfhound, Hatchetman, Raven, Cataphract, and so on, more new designs in under a decade than had been introduced in the preceding two centuries.  A few non-noble trainees from wealthy families were even allowed to buy their way into the training academies, to help fill the additional cockpits.

The recovery of the Star League data core on Helm further accelerated the rate of recovery, and the number of Battlemechs began to increase significantly from there forward.  That triggered a need for a large number of additional Mechwarriors to pilot them, and more than one House began looking for ways to train a lot more non-noble candidates who showed promise, without sparking a revolt by their own nobles who were about to be rendered a lot less relevant.  There were still a few shakeups and revolts in House Kurita over it.

Yeah, i was about to mention, Davion starting these to get more "commoners" into the force was essentially duplicated by theodore kurita by pulling in the Yakuza and making the ghost regiments.

Like that amazing movie on Inner Sphere personnel replacement, "The Cutting Edge," (  8) ;D ) when you're at the bottom of the barrell, you find a new barrel.  :)

Back on track, when the Clans came in and obliterhammered line units, the Great Houses essentially said "your mech was destroyed, you can either pilot one of ours now and keep fighting, or lose your lanf/title/etc."  Most MechWarriors said "ok," so, the answer to your question really is a matter of WHEN.  Pre 3050, nearly everyone owned their own mechs, very few were state owned.  even in Mercenary units, a LOT of the MechWarriors were technically subcontractors (you can see this in the Mercanary handbook) but the units as well started to own more and more of the mechs post 3050. UNITS were buying mechs to build up strength, not just bringing on more help.

In my story in the Legacy anthology ( Found here, whoot!  throw a coin to your witcher! ;-) hahaha https://www.amazon.com/BattleTech-Legacy-Anthology-John-Helfers/dp/1941582311/ref=sr_1_2?crid=MCHU6DUNPCPC&dchild=1&keywords=battletech+legacy&qid=1633718221&sprefix=battletech+legacy%2Caps%2C140&sr=8-2 ) (I was actually paid for it a long time back, i don't get royalties, i just like saying that phrase.  ;) haha)

I used the changing ratio of owners as a plot point: during the FEDCOM civil war, many in the 36th Lyran Guards wanted to stay with the Fedsuns, but the Lyrans actually owned the pink slips of most of the mechs.  Gawd, I can't remember where I dug that nugget about the 36th OUT of, but I fleshed it out into the whole story. :-)

(for what it's worth, my story in the Slack Tide anthology ( https://www.amazon.com/BattleTech-Slack-Tide-Anthology-ebook/dp/B084VJR4WR/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=battletech+tide&qid=1633719307&sr=8-1 ) also touches on the mercenary sub-contractor point, also showing the "overhead" rules in the merc HB and what happens if you don't pay your pilots for a while...  ;)

Hope this helps!  :)


ErikModi

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 297
Re: House Battlemechs ownership
« Reply #5 on: 08 October 2021, 14:14:39 »
In fact, I seem to recall in one of the books detailing how to run a mercenary unit, it was a huge deal when you rolled well enough to recruit a MechWarrior who was actually bringing a 'Mech with them.  Even if it was a bad 'Mech, it's still a 'Mech you don't have to buy separately.  The downside being if you sack them, they'll take their 'Mech with them.

The other thing that contributes here is the recovery of Lostech.  Someone's ancient ancestral BattleMech might still have undestroyed and well-maintained Star League-era goodies in it (unlikely, but possible), making that Warrior and 'Mech a lot more valuable (and they're a package deal).  Once new 'Mechs are being built, and old ones refitted with new/old tech, you have a choice:  a competent noble who owns his own battered Victor with an AC/20, or a talented commoner you can assign to your refurbished Victor with a Gauss rifle?
Best Served Cold (Clan Wolverine AU)

House Northman (Partial, Abandoned)

RifleMech

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2978
Re: House Battlemechs ownership
« Reply #6 on: 12 October 2021, 21:33:39 »
Not considering mercenaries but the battlemechs that serves to each of the succession houses: Who owns the mechs? Do they belong to their pilots or the houses? What is the role of the academies that train the mechwarriors? Do the parents pay tuition fees to get their children trained to pilot their mechs later?

I don't want to make it over complicated but does these mechs have a "mech title" like a car? Just curious if this is explained anywhere in the sourcebooks or novels.

Who owns the mechs? Depends on the mechs. Most will belong to the House, or company, but a few will belong to their pilots.

What is the role of the academies? To train pilots.

Tuition Fees, I'm going to go with as long as the trainee signs up to serve the house for x number of years, there are no tuition fees. If they're not going to be serving in the house military, there would be fees.

Do mechs have a title? I'm sure there's some kind of proof of ownership. Might look in AToW to see what it says about it.

kaliban

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 425
Re: House Battlemechs ownership
« Reply #7 on: 13 October 2021, 11:23:26 »
Yeah, i was about to mention, Davion starting these to get more "commoners" into the force was essentially duplicated by theodore kurita by pulling in the Yakuza and making the ghost regiments.

Like that amazing movie on Inner Sphere personnel replacement, "The Cutting Edge," (  8) ;D ) when you're at the bottom of the barrell, you find a new barrel.  :)

Back on track, when the Clans came in and obliterhammered line units, the Great Houses essentially said "your mech was destroyed, you can either pilot one of ours now and keep fighting, or lose your lanf/title/etc."  Most MechWarriors said "ok," so, the answer to your question really is a matter of WHEN.  Pre 3050, nearly everyone owned their own mechs, very few were state owned.  even in Mercenary units, a LOT of the MechWarriors were technically subcontractors (you can see this in the Mercanary handbook) but the units as well started to own more and more of the mechs post 3050. UNITS were buying mechs to build up strength, not just bringing on more help.

In my story in the Legacy anthology ( Found here, whoot!  throw a coin to your witcher! ;-) hahaha https://www.amazon.com/BattleTech-Legacy-Anthology-John-Helfers/dp/1941582311/ref=sr_1_2?crid=MCHU6DUNPCPC&dchild=1&keywords=battletech+legacy&qid=1633718221&sprefix=battletech+legacy%2Caps%2C140&sr=8-2 ) (I was actually paid for it a long time back, i don't get royalties, i just like saying that phrase.  ;) haha)

I used the changing ratio of owners as a plot point: during the FEDCOM civil war, many in the 36th Lyran Guards wanted to stay with the Fedsuns, but the Lyrans actually owned the pink slips of most of the mechs.  Gawd, I can't remember where I dug that nugget about the 36th OUT of, but I fleshed it out into the whole story. :-)

(for what it's worth, my story in the Slack Tide anthology ( https://www.amazon.com/BattleTech-Slack-Tide-Anthology-ebook/dp/B084VJR4WR/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=battletech+tide&qid=1633719307&sr=8-1 ) also touches on the mercenary sub-contractor point, also showing the "overhead" rules in the merc HB and what happens if you don't pay your pilots for a while...  ;)

Hope this helps!  :)

Thanks for explanation!
Nothing better than connecting to the authors.

I started playing in the 90's with the second edition box and I had this in mind that the mechs were owned by the mechwarrior and transferred father to son. I barely follow anything from Clan Invasion and was looking for the state of the things by 3025 or so.


five_corparty

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 786
Re: House Battlemechs ownership
« Reply #8 on: 13 October 2021, 21:54:10 »
no worries!  I'm arrogant and humble enough to say that I'm happy when people ask for canon sources to say, "oh, yeah, here you go, you can find it in this story- oh, who wrote it? that would be meeeee>:D ;D ;D

on a serious note, did that help answer the question?  your reply mentions 3025, which is (as i said and others) very much the era of mecharriors owning their own mechs and receiving titles and land in exchange for their service.

Arkansas Warrior

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8692
Re: House Battlemechs ownership
« Reply #9 on: 14 October 2021, 07:54:47 »
I can’t point to a specific source, but I’ve always had the impression that many of the old owner-operator families train their kids on the basics at home, so by the time they get to the academy they’ve got a leg up on commoners who’ve just been obsessively watching Immortal Warrior reruns and playing Mechwarrior 2987 or whatever.  Now, they’ll still need to learn plenty of things, but it’s good to have that old Stinger great-grandpa captured in 2915 in the barn that you can train on, makes it simpler when mom’s ready to retire and hand you the codes to the family Phoenix Hawk.  Or, y’know, Aunt Patricia brought a captured Panther back from the war when she took over the Barony, now she’s giving you lessons since she doesn’t have any kids of her own.  Means you can skip Mech Driving 101 and have time for that elective on New Avalon Squaredancing you wanted to take.  That kind of thing.
Sunrise is Coming.

All Hail First Prince Melissa Davion, the Patron Saint of the Regimental Combat Team, who cowed Dainmar Liao, created the Model Army, and rescued Robinson!  May her light ever guide the sons of the Suns, May our daughters ever endeavour to emulate her!

kaliban

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 425
Re: House Battlemechs ownership
« Reply #10 on: 14 October 2021, 12:02:17 »
no worries!  I'm arrogant and humble enough to say that I'm happy when people ask for canon sources to say, "oh, yeah, here you go, you can find it in this story- oh, who wrote it? that would be meeeee>:D ;D ;D

on a serious note, did that help answer the question?  your reply mentions 3025, which is (as i said and others) very much the era of mecharriors owning their own mechs and receiving titles and land in exchange for their service.

It surely did, thanks.

What about the Clans? Who owns the mechs?

Arkansas Warrior

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8692
Re: House Battlemechs ownership
« Reply #11 on: 14 October 2021, 12:08:59 »
In the Clans, the Clan owns everything.  With a few arguable exceptions, there is no private property.
Sunrise is Coming.

All Hail First Prince Melissa Davion, the Patron Saint of the Regimental Combat Team, who cowed Dainmar Liao, created the Model Army, and rescued Robinson!  May her light ever guide the sons of the Suns, May our daughters ever endeavour to emulate her!

kaliban

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 425
Re: House Battlemechs ownership
« Reply #12 on: 14 October 2021, 13:57:59 »
In the Clans, the Clan owns everything.  With a few arguable exceptions, there is no private property.

oh, God, space communists.  :o

Rainbow 6

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2425
Re: House Battlemechs ownership
« Reply #13 on: 15 October 2021, 16:24:25 »
Does ownership vary from house to house?

five_corparty

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 786
Re: House Battlemechs ownership
« Reply #14 on: 15 October 2021, 17:25:13 »
Does ownership vary from house to house?

In the classic era?  eh... maybe?  i think that's a super deep question, like, what are the differences in nobility between the CapCon and DC and Fedsuns and ECTEREA and... yes?  maybe?  Honestly, unless I was writing a story where that was the specific plot point, I think a handwavium "yes, similar enough" is probably good enough for most Player characters / adventures.  But that's just my thoughts!  ;D

that said, I think you can still, 100%, find worlds deep inside of the Great Houses that still work on the "you got a mech, you get a title" principle, well into the jihad era (and maybe beyond?)  but canon sources on such things are eluding me right now...
« Last Edit: 15 October 2021, 17:27:10 by five_corparty »

Rainbow 6

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2425
Re: House Battlemechs ownership
« Reply #15 on: 16 October 2021, 03:11:15 »
I only wondered as I noticed the DCMS have two ranks for mechwarriors, one for those that are nobility or own their own mech and one for those who are riding state owned machines.

Metallgewitter

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 476
Re: House Battlemechs ownership
« Reply #16 on: 17 October 2021, 09:25:55 »
A question: when Kai Allard-Liao entered his tour of duty he did so with Len-yo-wang his father's personal Mech. Is that the norm for noble Mechwarriors or can they choose to take a "state-owned" Mech? Or rather get a Mech assigned to them when they are assigned to a unit? I would assume that Mechwarriors from the common class are getting issued their gear dependend on which unit they are assigned (or more likely the unit has a "free" Mech the pilot gets.)

CJC070

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 613
Re: House Battlemechs ownership
« Reply #17 on: 17 October 2021, 10:36:06 »
A question: when Kai Allard-Liao entered his tour of duty he did so with Len-yo-wang his father's personal Mech. Is that the norm for noble Mechwarriors or can they choose to take a "state-owned" Mech? Or rather get a Mech assigned to them when they are assigned to a unit? I would assume that Mechwarriors from the common class are getting issued their gear dependend on which unit they are assigned (or more likely the unit has a "free" Mech the pilot gets.)

I would consider it a norm to use your own mech.  For most of these pilots they grew up piloting that mech and depending on what rules you use in an RPG you can lose both a piloting and gunnery point for a length of time to master a new mech.

glitterboy2098

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10039
    • The Temple Grounds - My Roleplaying and History website
Re: House Battlemechs ownership
« Reply #18 on: 17 October 2021, 16:25:59 »
i would assume that if the family mech was not already being used, the child of a noble would usually pilot the family mech. in the case of Kai, his father was not in (normal) military service and thus the family mech was open for kai to use. However had Justin still been actively serving in the military is is probable that kai would have been either assigned a state-owned mech from the unit for his tour, or if Justin chose to do so he could have bought kai a mech (either from a manufacturer or off the black/grey market)

note that some of the mechwarrior nobles seem to accumulate additional mechs beyond their initial one. either through intermarrying with other mechwarrior nobles (if both mom and dad own family mechs, their kids would stand to inherit either), or through salvage and gifts. salvage would be more common for mercenary/freelance work, while gifts are the sort of thing that a higher noble might do to reward particularly loyal service. (for example, if your family mech was a light, and you distinguished yourself, it would be perfectly in the power of say, hanse davion, to gift your family a medium mech as a reward, especially if your light got heavy damage. repair the light and now you have two family mechs. etc)

and if the family is able to become wealthy (using funds from their landhold to invest for example) there is nothing preventing them from just outright buying additional mechs, beyond the high costs of purchase and upkeep. for a family that has a lot of kids, this might be a better option that relying on a state-owned machine for all of them.

Middcore

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 808
  • The Inner Sphere could always use more Heroes!
Re: House Battlemechs ownership
« Reply #19 on: 17 October 2021, 19:20:42 »
A question: when Kai Allard-Liao entered his tour of duty he did so with Len-yo-wang his father's personal Mech. Is that the norm for noble Mechwarriors or can they choose to take a "state-owned" Mech? Or rather get a Mech assigned to them when they are assigned to a unit? I would assume that Mechwarriors from the common class are getting issued their gear dependend on which unit they are assigned (or more likely the unit has a "free" Mech the pilot gets.)

I would think it would be assumed that a noble scion entering military service is going to use their family 'Mech if it's available (IE if mom or dad or some other relative isn't using it). With so much made of the House militaries barely being able to replace losses, at least in the Succession Wars era, it seems like it would seen as quite a faux pas to be like "Yeah I've got a perfectly good 'Mech parked at the family estate but I want the quartermaster corps to assign me a different one so I don't scratch its paint."

Exception might be if the young lordling or ladyling is assigned to a unit with a specialized role demanding a particular type or weight class of 'Mech where their family machine just won't work.

Metallgewitter

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 476
Re: House Battlemechs ownership
« Reply #20 on: 18 October 2021, 05:19:02 »
note that some of the mechwarrior nobles seem to accumulate additional mechs beyond their initial one. either through intermarrying with other mechwarrior nobles (if both mom and dad own family mechs, their kids would stand to inherit either), or through salvage and gifts. salvage would be more common for mercenary/freelance work, while gifts are the sort of thing that a higher noble might do to reward particularly loyal service. (for example, if your family mech was a light, and you distinguished yourself, it would be perfectly in the power of say, hanse davion, to gift your family a medium mech as a reward, especially if your light got heavy damage. repair the light and now you have two family mechs. etc)

I think the rewards for stellar service are common in the IS. For example the TRO for the Dragon has a notable pilot who was gifted a Grand Dragon for his decades of exemplary service. Salvage might be more for his children if he / she has more then one child who wants to enter the military. I mean not every noble has more then one Mech at his  / her disposal.

Remembered something right now in the Masters & Minions book there is the profile of Ivy Ward a general of the Marian Hegemony. Her profile states that she wasn't supposed to pilot her family's mech because her older brother was supposed to inherit it and enter service with the Marian legions. So in small Periphery states Mechs would most likely belong to the warrior and not to the state making it more feudalistic then the Great Houses (though less likely in the Magistracy or Concordat I suppose)

Arkansas Warrior

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8692
Re: House Battlemechs ownership
« Reply #21 on: 18 October 2021, 10:08:00 »
I would think it would be assumed that a noble scion entering military service is going to use their family 'Mech if it's available (IE if mom or dad or some other relative isn't using it). With so much made of the House militaries barely being able to replace losses, at least in the Succession Wars era, it seems like it would seen as quite a faux pas to be like "Yeah I've got a perfectly good 'Mech parked at the family estate but I want the quartermaster corps to assign me a different one so I don't scratch its paint."

Exception might be if the young lordling or ladyling is assigned to a unit with a specialized role demanding a particular type or weight class of 'Mech where their family machine just won't work.
If a mechwarrior is bringing a family mech from home, his assignment's probably going to reflect that.  You're not likely to find a guy who'se family has owned a warhammer for 6 generations assigned to the Davion Light Guard, for example.


That reminds me of a thing: regimental assignments seem to often be traditional.  McKinnon's Company (The Fox's Teeth) of the 7th Crucis Lancers is a classic example: it seems to have been commanded by a McKinnon for 300 years, and you see the same family names popping up (often grouped in the same lances) across several centuries of different TO&Es we have for them.  So if, say, your family mech is a Victor, odds are you've also got a traditional family slot in in the 1st Capellan Dragoons, Davion Assault Guards, etc, rather than a unit that tends to run to light mechs.  It probably helps to be connected to a unit with regional ties; the 7th Avalon recruits from the Broken Wheel Combat Region pretty exclusively, for example.  The McKinnons may also be an example of a family that's accumulated multiple mechs over the years: in 3027, Captain Ian McKinnon was commanding the company in a Marauder, and his brother Mark was a a mechwarrior in the Recon Lance piloting a Shadow Hawk-2H.  By 3038, Ian's driving a Black Knight and his son Ross has a Wolfhound in the Recon lance.
Sunrise is Coming.

All Hail First Prince Melissa Davion, the Patron Saint of the Regimental Combat Team, who cowed Dainmar Liao, created the Model Army, and rescued Robinson!  May her light ever guide the sons of the Suns, May our daughters ever endeavour to emulate her!

glitterboy2098

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10039
    • The Temple Grounds - My Roleplaying and History website
Re: House Battlemechs ownership
« Reply #22 on: 18 October 2021, 10:40:33 »
Very true. Which also plays into politics.because those same ties to units also invite efforts by more powerful nobles to try and saw you into their circles and debt as a way to try and control said unit. If the hasek-davions are trying to suborn units to their cause of independence, the easiest way would be to get the MechWarrior nobility in said unit indebted to them.

Arkansas Warrior

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8692
Re: House Battlemechs ownership
« Reply #23 on: 18 October 2021, 11:03:34 »
If a mechwarrior is bringing a family mech from home, his assignment's probably going to reflect that.  You're not likely to find a guy who'se family has owned a warhammer for 6 generations assigned to the Davion Light Guard, for example.


That reminds me of a thing: regimental assignments seem to often be traditional.  McKinnon's Company (The Fox's Teeth) of the 7th Crucis Lancers is a classic example: it seems to have been commanded by a McKinnon for 300 years, and you see the same family names popping up (often grouped in the same lances) across several centuries of different TO&Es we have for them.  So if, say, your family mech is a Victor, odds are you've also got a traditional family slot in in the 1st Capellan Dragoons, Davion Assault Guards, etc, rather than a unit that tends to run to light mechs.  It probably helps to be connected to a unit with regional ties; the 7th Avalon recruits from the Broken Wheel Combat Region pretty exclusively, for example.  The McKinnons may also be an example of a family that's accumulated multiple mechs over the years: in 3027, Captain Ian McKinnon was commanding the company in a Marauder, and his brother Mark was a a mechwarrior in the Recon Lance piloting a Shadow Hawk-2H.  By 3038, Ian's driving a Black Knight and his son Ross has a Wolfhound in the Recon lance.


BTW, here's a link to the Sarna page on the Fox's Teeth, so you can see what I mean about the same names popping up over and over throughout the centuries: https://www.sarna.net/wiki/McKinnon%27s_Company
Sunrise is Coming.

All Hail First Prince Melissa Davion, the Patron Saint of the Regimental Combat Team, who cowed Dainmar Liao, created the Model Army, and rescued Robinson!  May her light ever guide the sons of the Suns, May our daughters ever endeavour to emulate her!

five_corparty

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 786
Re: House Battlemechs ownership
« Reply #24 on: 18 October 2021, 11:31:05 »
I swear I remember in one of the mechwarrior editions reading that mechwarriors that own their own mech get paid more- I KNOW it's in one of the merc books (because then they're independent contractors, not employees)(which makes sense, as a contractor. ;-) hahaha

good points all around above me, as well!

Middcore

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 808
  • The Inner Sphere could always use more Heroes!
Re: House Battlemechs ownership
« Reply #25 on: 18 October 2021, 11:36:18 »
I swear I remember in one of the mechwarrior editions reading that mechwarriors that own their own mech get paid more- I KNOW it's in one of the merc books (because then they're independent contractors, not employees)(which makes sense, as a contractor. ;-) hahaha

I can't see any reason for House MechWarriors who bring their own 'Mech to get paid more unless they're also bringing their own retinue of technical support to maintain the personally-owned machine.

Mercenaries probably do get paid more than House troops because they're mercenaries, after all, and employers have to outbid the competition. (Although this is going to vary wildly with the size/reputation of the merc unit, the employer, type of contract etc. And of course most of the big well-known mercenary groups in BattleTech may as well be House troops they stay tied to one faction so long, except for Wolf's Dragoons who become a faction unto themselves.)

MarauderD

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2785
Re: House Battlemechs ownership
« Reply #26 on: 18 October 2021, 13:16:44 »

BTW, here's a link to the Sarna page on the Fox's Teeth, so you can see what I mean about the same names popping up over and over throughout the centuries: https://www.sarna.net/wiki/McKinnon%27s_Company

Speaking of which, with the fall of the republic, when does the AFFS get the Fox's Teeth back?  :)

Metallgewitter

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 476
Re: House Battlemechs ownership
« Reply #27 on: 19 October 2021, 01:01:43 »
Speaking of which, with the fall of the republic, when does the AFFS get the Fox's Teeth back?  :)

Did David Mckinnon survive the fortress years? I mean he was over 100 years right? did he have any descendants? If not then someone else needs to reform them. Plus the parent unit the 7th Crucis is listed as destroyed so that might have to come first

Arkansas Warrior

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8692
Re: House Battlemechs ownership
« Reply #28 on: 19 October 2021, 11:56:22 »
A returned Fox’s Teeth would make a great seed to grow a new 7th Crucis from.  After all, the Crucis Lancer regiments were originally formed from SLDF (i.e. largely TH) troops.
Sunrise is Coming.

All Hail First Prince Melissa Davion, the Patron Saint of the Regimental Combat Team, who cowed Dainmar Liao, created the Model Army, and rescued Robinson!  May her light ever guide the sons of the Suns, May our daughters ever endeavour to emulate her!

MarauderD

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2785
Re: House Battlemechs ownership
« Reply #29 on: 19 October 2021, 12:21:16 »
A returned Fox’s Teeth would make a great seed to grow a new 7th Crucis from.  After all, the Crucis Lancer regiments were originally formed from SLDF (i.e. largely TH) troops.

Well, I'd love to see the day that all 8 Crucis Lancers RCTs and all 8 Davion Guards RCTs are alive and kicking, but I won't hold my breath.  Seems like the universe was set in motion with House Davion in pole position if you think back to the original 5 House Sourcebooks in the 80s.  I don't think TPTB want to have a top dog house again.  We keep seeing houses getting propped up and knocked back down, and I'm starting to believe we're about to see the Combine and the Confederation be the next two houses to be introduced to the DoomHammer. 

CJC070

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 613
Re: House Battlemechs ownership
« Reply #30 on: 19 October 2021, 14:05:33 »
Well, I'd love to see the day that all 8 Crucis Lancers RCTs and all 8 Davion Guards RCTs are alive and kicking, but I won't hold my breath.  Seems like the universe was set in motion with House Davion in pole position if you think back to the original 5 House Sourcebooks in the 80s.  I don't think TPTB want to have a top dog house again.  We keep seeing houses getting propped up and knocked back down, and I'm starting to believe we're about to see the Combine and the Confederation be the next two houses to be introduced to the DoomHammer.

We may see more LCT since the developers and writers are pointing towards more company and battalion sized invasions rather than regimental. 

Rainbow 6

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2425
Re: House Battlemechs ownership
« Reply #31 on: 19 October 2021, 14:47:10 »
Speaking of which, with the fall of the republic, when does the AFFS get the Fox's Teeth back?  :)

Wouldn't mind seeing Sorenson's Sabres back as well.

Arkansas Warrior

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8692
Re: House Battlemechs ownership
« Reply #32 on: 19 October 2021, 16:57:04 »
Well, I'd love to see the day that all 8 Crucis Lancers RCTs and all 8 Davion Guards RCTs are alive and kicking, but I won't hold my breath.  Seems like the universe was set in motion with House Davion in pole position if you think back to the original 5 House Sourcebooks in the 80s.  I don't think TPTB want to have a top dog house again.  We keep seeing houses getting propped up and knocked back down, and I'm starting to believe we're about to see the Combine and the Confederation be the next two houses to be introduced to the DoomHammer.
9 Davion Guard units now, with the addition of the Dawn Guards!  (Unless they become the new 2nd or 3rd Guard.)

Sunrise is Coming.

All Hail First Prince Melissa Davion, the Patron Saint of the Regimental Combat Team, who cowed Dainmar Liao, created the Model Army, and rescued Robinson!  May her light ever guide the sons of the Suns, May our daughters ever endeavour to emulate her!

Metallgewitter

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 476
Re: House Battlemechs ownership
« Reply #33 on: 20 October 2021, 02:28:50 »
A more topic-oriented question: if a noble enters the army with his Mech in let's say after the war of 3039. The Mech is a well maintained SW spec Warhammer (for example). After that war the tech renaissance started with thew unlocking of SL era weapons.  So who would be responsible for any upgrades (say Double heat sinks). Would the state offer those upgrades or would the owner of the Mech be responsible for the upgrades? I mean a house soldier is not a Merc who has to pay for upgrade kits (or gets them awarded)

The Wobbly Guy

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 121
Re: House Battlemechs ownership
« Reply #34 on: 20 October 2021, 03:06:14 »
Could be a co-pay system, in exchange for service years to the state. The more the state pays for the upgrade, the longer the noble or his family has to serve, especially on the frontlines. Or perhaps give up certain salvage shares in advance.

Lots of ways and room for both sides to negotiate.

Middcore

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 808
  • The Inner Sphere could always use more Heroes!
Re: House Battlemechs ownership
« Reply #35 on: 20 October 2021, 08:55:20 »
A more topic-oriented question: if a noble enters the army with his Mech in let's say after the war of 3039. The Mech is a well maintained SW spec Warhammer (for example). After that war the tech renaissance started with thew unlocking of SL era weapons.  So who would be responsible for any upgrades (say Double heat sinks). Would the state offer those upgrades or would the owner of the Mech be responsible for the upgrades? I mean a house soldier is not a Merc who has to pay for upgrade kits (or gets them awarded)

My take would be that if the unit is in line to get those upgrades, the "personal" 'Mech is getting them too, on the House's dime. I don't even think any cost-sharing/repayment negotiation would happen. We're probably talking about a warrior whose family has served the House faithfully for generations, after all, good chance they're some level of nobility and therefore part of the power structure. There's very little chance they'll be like "Thanks for the double heat sinks, suckers, now I'm off to Outreach!" The guy or gal who brings a family 'Mech is already doing the procurement department a bit of a favor by reducing the number of state-owned machines they have to assign from new production or overhaul by one.

glitterboy2098

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10039
    • The Temple Grounds - My Roleplaying and History website
Re: House Battlemechs ownership
« Reply #36 on: 20 October 2021, 16:22:52 »
i would assume that only the higher nobility in the 30's/40's, or those being sent to the clan front with a major unit in the 50's, would get a straight up upgrade right away. otherwise i would assume that it would be refit when it gets damaged and needs repaired (since it'll be in the repair bays anyway) or when the whole unit is called in for an upgrade as part of army modernization efforts later in the 50's.

i agree though that the cost of the refit is probably going to be covered by the state in most cases. though i wouldn't be surprised if it didn't come with the expectation of an additional term of service if it occurs late enough in the warrior's existing term. a warrior that decides to muster out anyway may end up having to pay off the refit costs in installments tacked on to their estate's taxes.

that said, i could see a family paying for a refit out of their own pockets if they desire a specific type of refit.. a state funded refit would be dictated by the state, and that may or may not be a good thing, especially in the 3040's and 3050's, where questionable refits abounded. if your family mech was a TDR-5S thunderbolt in steiner service, the state would probably want to refit it to the TDR-9S standard (getting rid of most of its long range firepower) but the family might want the superior (and more advanced) TDR-7M version instead.

R.Tempest

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 196
Re: House Battlemechs ownership
« Reply #37 on: 20 October 2021, 23:53:23 »
 Some refits would have to be handled by the House, but probably not at the expense of the warrior in question. Feudal obligations run both ways (ideally) & minor upgrades are the sort of thing you provide to your vassals.
 Major upgrades may be more problematic. Upgrading the Warhammer to double heat sinks is not as straightforward as it sounds. Most of those heat sinks are integral to the engine so it would require an engine replacement (or at least a rebuild). But if the whole unit was being upgraded then the privately owned mech would be included as a matter of course.
 Indeed, it may make more sense to simply say "Your family has served well for many years in that Warhammer but it is getting outdated. To honor you for your service we're rewarding you with this brand new Warhammer with all the current upgrades to replace the old one. May it serve your family well for many more generations."
 Now, the warrior in question may have to make arrangements for his household tech's to get trained on the new equipment but that could be negotiated. It may be that, as part of the feudal obligation, the warrior provides a tech or two to maintain his mech. If the unit as a whole is getting upgraded then there obviously would have to be tech re-training as part of the unit upgrade and they would get the training then. But if the tech's are not part of the required service then they would have to get seperate training - probably at the warriors expense.

SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8074
Re: House Battlemechs ownership
« Reply #38 on: 26 October 2021, 00:36:19 »
Now your first question, about ownership papers, well in theory they exist but given how often 'Mechs cross national boundaries about the only organizations that could enforce them are the SL and C*, and even then they're probably not that useful. Consider Daniel Allard during the Silver Eagle incident, he's a FedSuns citizen in the employ of a Lyran merc company raiding a Kuritian space, if his 'Mech gets captured that title isn't worth very much now, is it?

Now as for who owns the 'Mechs in House forces, well FASA didn't seem to do the research before designing the BT universe so things are a mess. First of all it's not a binary situation with who owns the 'Mechs, it's a trinary one, there's the privately owned 'Mechs, the state owned ones, and finally the noble owned ones, with a lot of overlap between the first and last. If I (Or my family) privately own a 'Mech, why would I sign myself and my 'Mech up with one of the house militaries? And why would they accept me? And what happens when my 'Mech is destroyed?

Now noble owned 'Mechs are where things get really muddy,  and historically these worked on a deal along the lines of "I give you this fancy title and these lands to rule over and tax and in return you furnish me with at least X military forces at least every Y time units out of Z time units" and these are called feudal levy and it's the responsibility to the lord who supplies them to pay all costs associated with them. Now in real world history the these could be demanded for for a varying amount of time per year, anywhere from 40 days to a campaigning season, in BT I'm going to assume that it's 1 year in 5, but it can be done in multiples.

Now this all seems like a great deal for the central government but you don't want to actually be using these feudal levies for a few reasons:
1. They owe their loyalty to whoever raised them, NOT the central government.
2. Their built to operate as independent units, not as part of a whole. Take McKinnon's Company, their not a recon company, a fire support company, or built to operate as part of a larger force. As a further example if you call 3 lords to your banner, each is obligated to provide a company each, you group them together to form a battalion, but each provides a recon lance, a battle lance, and a fire support lance, you can't group the recon lances together to form a recon company, it's not the way the system works.
3. You only get them for a limited amount of time each interval. Say the Davidson family is sworn the the FedSuns for one 'Mech and then one day they get a note saying that they need to provide the services of that 'Mech for the next 3 years, well after those 3 years are up for the next 12 years they can't be called to the FedSuns banner, you only want to call these people up when you really need them, not for minor stuff.
4. You know those planetary militia's that get mentioned from time to time? Well these guys make them up.

Now I mentioned McKinnon's Company before, and they seem to operate under a different set of rules, where in exchange for their noble titles they furnish the FedSuns with 12 'Mechs and Warriors, but I wouldn't call that owning those 'Mechs now, would you?

BirdDog

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 157
Re: House Battlemechs ownership
« Reply #39 on: 27 October 2021, 11:16:33 »
I can't see any reason for House MechWarriors who bring their own 'Mech to get paid more unless they're also bringing their own retinue of technical support to maintain the personally-owned machine.

Could be a "wear and tear" thing as well.  I worked for a lawncare company and the techs drove company vehicles, but the salesreps drove their own cars and got mileage + gas reimbursement on top of their normal rate.

Could be something similar - Using House equipment means you don't need to worry about normal wear and tear (or even combat repairs) - the military takes care of it.  But if it's your own mech, you'd be on the hook for it, and likely wouldn't want to stick around/re-enlist/whatever if it became too expensive, so the military throws you a few extra C-bills as incentive and to help offset/cover those costs.


EDIT: It's not a canon story or anything but the Battletech: 3000 collaborative story had a lot of this in it, which I always found fascinating.  Some of the warriors owned their mechs, others were assigned - House-owned mechs could be modified as long as the modifications were approved, but pilots had to pay for it if they owned the mech.  There was one exception where a privately-owned mech was modified on the AFFS' dime because the company commander was able to persuade TPTB that the modifications were beneficial to the whole unit.
« Last Edit: 27 October 2021, 11:18:31 by BirdDog »