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Author Topic: How common is interstellar travel?  (Read 4823 times)

RifleMech

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Re: How common is interstellar travel?
« Reply #60 on: 29 April 2022, 02:36:32 »
That is why I said "assuming the Dropship's Captain has enough time/resources to make the necessary cargo swap".  If there isn't enough time or resources, then the extra life support remains on board.

It's paid for. The captain isn't going to take time to unload and shop around for new cargo. It'll be sold to passengers at the next stop.



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The point was that using Infantry Quarters would allow for 95% of the available tonnage to be used for non-Life Support cargo, while Steerage had less than 10% of its available tonnage to be used for non-Life Support cargo.
As to available tonnage, let's go with the cargo Union with 1800 tons available:
Cargo-only: 1800 tons available
InfQtr capacity: 1800 tons broken down into 5.25 tons per person, gives 342 people carried for 85.5 tons, 1710 tons of Life Support carried, and 4.5 tons remaining.  1714.5 tons available for cargo if no passengers.
Steerage Quarters Capacity: 1800 tons broken down into 5.5 tons per person, gives 327 people carried for 1635 tons, 163 tons of Life Support carried, and 1.5 tons remaining.  164.5 tons available for cargo if no passengers.
The 20-person Infantry Quarters is still very flexible if the Captain wants to turn his ship into a cargo hauler.  The captain with Steerage Quarters practically can only carry passengers

I have no idea where you're getting your numbers.

It'd still take time to tear out all the piping, wires and ductwork. And if they were going to take the trouble to put them in they'd go for steerage like the books say.


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They still have to pay for the room in the Jumpship.  The Jumpship fee is 50,000 C-Bills, for access to a 1000-ton piece of hardware.  If the person is in a 5-ton Steerage Quarter (i.e. not counting Life Support tonnage), then they are using 1/2000 the mass of a Docking Collar, meaning the passenger pays a minimum of 25 C-Bills.  After leaving the Jumpship the passenger still has to pay to get a room on board the Dropship or Small Craft (paid either before the start of the trip, at the start of the trip, or negotiated right then and there).

First you said the docking collar was 50,000 now it's just being on the jumpship. You're moving the goal post. What happens when the jumpship doesn't have a docking collar?


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That is why I have been using the 20 people/5 tons Bay numbers, rather than 20 people/3 tons Compartment numbers.  Infantry compartments are the cramped sizes you are thinking of, and are mainly used to transport troops on a battlefield.  Infantry bays on the other hand, "include basic life support (air filters and conditioning that draw from the vehicle’s external environment or an internal ship-wide life support apparatus), basic sleeping arrangements (such as bunks, cots or simple pads), a communal waste facility, and even food and equipment stowage compartments that allow for a bit more comfort and longer hauls. Infantry bays can even provide proper anchorage for the infantry unit’s gear, based on its type." - Tech Manual, 6th edition, p240

You also want to maximize how many people are carried to get the lowest price possible. That'd be 30 people per bay.


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Those life support systems are where the mass for the Quarters comes from.  You're not trying to stuff people inside a volkswagon, you're trying to stuff people inside a submersible.  The submersible may mass more than the volkswagon (2500 kg vs ~1500 kg), but the available interior space is taken up with other stuff needed to keep people alive.

What does that have to do with Luxury Quarters being available to other units beyond the Princess Dropship?


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A ship that costs 6* as much per Docking Collar will have maintenance costs 6* as much per Docking Collar.  Maintenance fees are the same as maintenance costs.  To pay those 6* higher maintenance fees, it will need to charge 6* higher FTL fees.

If the fee is 50,000. Then the fee is 50,000. You don't pay the ship off by charging more. You pay it off by hauling more. Since it can carry almost 2.5 times the dropships a Monolith can, it'd be making more money and paying off the bill faster.


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Cargo at the source location is cheap.  If I know what the destination needs (the 900-ton load that would only fit on the Leopard), I can get a good idea of what would also sell at the destination, and buy 900 tons of that.  The total shipping cost goes up by 65%, but I have additional material that I can sell for slightly cheaper than if I needed to ship it via another Leopard.

Sure you can gamble and hope you can sell off extra cargo but buying and shipping it would all be on you. Not those who ordered the original 900 ton load. You'd also need a warehouse to put the extra tonnage in. And unless you want to book passage and shipping to another planet you're going to need a place to stay until your goods are sold and another ship comes along to give you a ride someplace else.


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Infantry Bays have a capacity limit, and are reached at 30 people per.  So if you were overloading a Dropship it would be:
1) fill up the Steerage/2nd Class/1st Class with 1 person per (their listed capacity from Tech Manual 6e, p236), so you can use the 200 man-day Life Support capacity
2) Fill up the various personnel Transport bays to capacity, so you can use the 20 man-days per ton life support
3) Fill up the remaining cargo with whoever can fit, but only get 5 man-days per ton of Life Support

Bays aren't overcrowded with only 20 people. And remember what the book says about hot bunking? That's more than 1 person assigned to a quarters.


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The 5 tons for a Steerage Bay covers the life support/recycling equipment, not a larger room.  The Infantry Bay is the larger room, but has poor recycling equipment.

We don't know how much weight goes to what. 30 troopers is 3 tons. That leaves 2 tons for beds and bedding, lockers, etc. 1 trooper weighs .1 tons. Maybe .2 or .3 depending on extra equipment and armor. They're going to get 1 bed with pillow and blankets and space, same as the bay. Even if we throw in a entertainment center and private bathroom. That leaves a lot of weight left over for life support equipment. And I'm really expected to believe that all that life support can't support more than one person? Even if it's just by locking the door open and people taking turns in the bathroom?


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The problem is that it is illegal.
Tech Manual, 6th edition, p236:
Quarters Type               Weight (per Quarters/Seat)     Equipment Slot Space     Capacity
Quarters, Crew7 tons1 slot per 20 quarters*1 person Basic Quarters
Quarters, Steerage5 tons1 slot per 50 quarters*1 person Basic Room
Quarters, 2nd Class7 tons1 slot per 20 quarters*1 person Standard Suite
Quarters, 1st Class10 tons1 slot per 5 quarters*1 person Luxury Suite
A single Steerage Quarters only has a capacity of one person.

Remember, how the universe works isn't how the game works. You won't fire a 120mm round out of an 85mm cannon. Yet the rules allow sharing of ammo between AC/s of the same class. Also remember the rule books have mentioned overcrowding and hot bunking. The rules are for ideal situations. Steerage probably has 4 tons of life support equipment. A bay might have .25 tons of life support equipment. Maybe more if a third of the troopers sack out on the floor and the other 20 use hammocks. It's still not going to be a lot compared to Steerage. All that life support can certainly keep more than 1 person alive.


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I was using the 20-person limit from AlphaMirage, to reflect civilian passengers rather than military.  The Life support is additional tonnage.  If you have 20 people in a 5-ton Bay, that is 5 tons.  If you want them to live through one day, you need 1 ton of Life support for a total of 6 tons.  If you want them to live through 2 days, you need 2 tons of Life Support for a total of 7 tons, aso.  The Life Support tonnage is not included with the base weight of Compartments/Bays/Quarters.

The limit for Steerage Quarters is 1 person per 5 tons.  Bays don't have the recycling systems that Steerage (and 2nd class, and 1st class) do.

That 1 ton of cargo is water, oxygen bottles, food, and filters. It's not the actual machinery such as the toilet and sink. That is a part of the Quarters'/Bay's weight.

Basically it's like turning the AC on and then leaving the front door open. The AC will still cool off the house but it won't do it as well as it would with the door shut.


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Those pages are fluff, rather than rules.  Infantry would stay in Bays, and assemble in a convenient empty location before heading out.  The Mechanizd infantry would be placed closest to the doors as their vehicle would be the biggest infantry vehicles.  Then motorized, VTOL, or similar smaller vehicles, and finally foot infantry.

Considering the same process is used for Fighters, Mechs, Vehicles, they're rules. Now whether or not Foot Infantry can load and unload through a Mechanized Infantry Bay or not, I'm not sure. I'm leaning towards, no. They'd each need their own bay type since the bay would be configured for that specific type of infantry. How many platoons can leave at one time depends on how many doors there are. One door? One at a time. Two doors? Two at a time and so on.
 


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Napkin math might be taking the weight of the animal and dividing it by a value appropriate for humans, then saying that the animals use that amount of Life Support.  So if a Guernsey cow massed 500 kg, and the human equivalent was 125 kg, then the cow would use 4 man-days of Life Support per day.  Good question in it, I am watching that thread for an official ruling.

That might work. It would mean that a k9 platoon would either need to be split up or extra cargo space given over to life support for them. 2 tons instead of 1.5. I hope we get an answer.

idea weenie

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Re: How common is interstellar travel?
« Reply #61 on: 30 April 2022, 19:11:23 »
It's paid for. The captain isn't going to take time to unload and shop around for new cargo. It'll be sold to passengers at the next stop.

That is why I said available resources.  Also, how do you know the Captain took on the excessive life support without securing paying passengers.

I have no idea where you're getting your numbers.

It'd still take time to tear out all the piping, wires and ductwork. And if they were going to take the trouble to put them in they'd go for steerage like the books say.

The numbers are for comparing 3 otherwise identical Dropships with different interior designs.  The cargo Union has 1800 tons available, and can carry 1800 tons.  The Infantry(Passenger) Bays Union Dropship has 95% of that 1800 tons available for non-passenger cargo.  The Steeraage Bays Union Dropship has less than 10% of that 1800 tons available for non-passenger cargo.  This means that the Steerage Quarters Union has to focus on getting passengers board, or charge over ten times as much for shipping cargo.  The Infantry(Pssenger) Bays can carry non-passenger cargo, and only charge 5% more than the standard cargo Union.

First you said the docking collar was 50,000 now it's just being on the jumpship. You're moving the goal post. What happens when the jumpship doesn't have a docking collar?

The 50k C-Bills is for Jumpship travel, and needs to be charged if the Jumpship is going to turn a profit.  A Jumpship can charge 50k C-0Bills for access to a 1 kiloton piece of equipment.  If you wantt t carry cargo on board a Jumpship through an FTL jump, then you will be paying t least 50 C-Bills per ton just for the Jumpship fee.

If the Jumpship doesn't have a collar, then if it carries commercial freight it will still need to charge a fee, has less than 5% of its expensive mass available for cargo, and will still need Dropships (or Small Craft, or a space station) at both ends to get that cargo offloaded.

You also want to maximize how many people are carried to get the lowest price possible. That'd be 30 people per bay.

I was making 2 assumptions.  First is that civilians would not get carried at the same 'density' as military troopers.  Second is that limiting it to 20 people per Bay is easier to calculate Life Support demands than 28 or 30 per bay.

What does that have to do with Luxury Quarters being available to other units beyond the Princess Dropship?

The key is that space in a Steerage (or 2nd Class, or 1st Class) does not translate to keeping someone alive.  Volkswagon stuffing worked because there was access to outside air.  Submersible stuffing does not work because even though the linked submersible is 1.5* as heavy as a volkswagon bus, most of the mass is taken up by heavier equipment.

If the fee is 50,000. Then the fee is 50,000. You don't pay the ship off by charging more. You pay it off by hauling more. Since it can carry almost 2.5 times the dropships a Monolith can, it'd be making more money and paying off the bill faster.

The fee is 50k for Jumpship travel, not Warship travel.  You also missed that the Potemkin is ~18* as expensive as a Monolith, while only carrying almost 2.5* as many Dropships.  That means it is roughly 6* as expensive per Dropship collar.

Sure you can gamble and hope you can sell off extra cargo but buying and shipping it would all be on you. Not those who ordered the original 900 ton load. You'd also need a warehouse to put the extra tonnage in. And unless you want to book passage and shipping to another planet you're going to need a place to stay until your goods are sold and another ship comes along to give you a ride someplace else.

The Jumpship charter fee and Leopard charter fee are already being paid by the person making the shipping request.  The person doing speculative cargo only has to pay for the extra cargo at the departure site and the upgrade cost to charter the Union instead of the Leopard.  Check the math yourself, about how much it would cost to charter a Jumpship at 50k C-Bills per week (assuming average rate of travel is 1 jump per week), taking into account the time needed for the Leopard to travel to and from the destination planet.  Now calculate the increase in charter cost if a Union was used instead of the Leopard.  That difference in cost (plus the price of the goods in a buyer's market) is the cost that the speculative seller has to cover.

Bays aren't overcrowded with only 20 people. And remember what the book says about hot bunking? That's more than 1 person assigned to a quarters.

Hot bunking as long as you have sufficient life support (of which a single Steerage Quarters can only support one person) and can support 200 man-days.  If you have more people than the Steerage Quarters can support, you are using Life Support at a rate of 5 man-days per ton.

We don't know how much weight goes to what. 30 troopers is 3 tons. That leaves 2 tons for beds and bedding, lockers, etc. 1 trooper weighs .1 tons. Maybe .2 or .3 depending on extra equipment and armor. They're going to get 1 bed with pillow and blankets and space, same as the bay. Even if we throw in a entertainment center and private bathroom. That leaves a lot of weight left over for life support equipment. And I'm really expected to believe that all that life support can't support more than one person? Even if it's just by locking the door open and people taking turns in the bathroom?

Taking turns in a bathroom is one thing.  Having more people than the recycling system can handle is a good way to have a ship full of corpses because there was not enough oxygen production.  Locking the door open just means the life support system that can only support one person is now being used to support 2+ people (aka not enough).

Remember, how the universe works isn't how the game works. You won't fire a 120mm round out of an 85mm cannon. Yet the rules allow sharing of ammo between AC/s of the same class. Also remember the rule books have mentioned overcrowding and hot bunking. The rules are for ideal situations. Steerage probably has 4 tons of life support equipment. A bay might have .25 tons of life support equipment. Maybe more if a third of the troopers sack out on the floor and the other 20 use hammocks. It's still not going to be a lot compared to Steerage. All that life support can certainly keep more than 1 person alive.

All that life support equipment is doing is using 1/10 the Life support tonnage.  So the Bay personnel might be using oxygen cannisters and CO2 scrubbers as part of their 50 kg per person per day mass usage, while the Steerage Quarters has a full algae setup that recycles the CO2 into Oxygen, and only needs 5 kg per person per day to account for waste.

That 1 ton of cargo is water, oxygen bottles, food, and filters. It's not the actual machinery such as the toilet and sink. That is a part of the Quarters'/Bay's weight.

Basically it's like turning the AC on and then leaving the front door open. The AC will still cool off the house but it won't do it as well as it would with the door shut.

Except in this case it is where the AC has to be on 24/7 to keep one person alive.

Considering the same process is used for Fighters, Mechs, Vehicles, they're rules. Now whether or not Foot Infantry can load and unload through a Mechanized Infantry Bay or not, I'm not sure. I'm leaning towards, no. They'd each need their own bay type since the bay would be configured for that specific type of infantry. How many platoons can leave at one time depends on how many doors there are. One door? One at a time. Two doors? Two at a time and so on.

I am assuming individual Foot soldiers are smaller than the vehicles used by Mechanized infantry.  Tat means if Mechanized infantry can physically drive their vehicles through a part of the ship, then Foot soldiers can also physically get through that part of the ship.  The Troopers would have their own Bay(s), they would just be arranged so the larger stuff is closer to the doors.

AlphaMirage

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Re: How common is interstellar travel?
« Reply #62 on: 30 April 2022, 20:17:36 »
I mean one of the things that you can also look at is that the IS average biweekly salary for the middle class is 608c-bills (highest being the LC at around 800, lowest is in the periphery at around 500). That works out on my Two Condors sheet to a journey of around 30 days and 3 jumps costing around 630 for either infantry bay passengers or steerage ones. So its certainly an investment but it is doable assuming there is space

RifleMech

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Re: How common is interstellar travel?
« Reply #63 on: 01 May 2022, 01:07:11 »
That is why I said available resources.  Also, how do you know the Captain took on the excessive life support without securing paying passengers.

He didn't. Life support is based on the number of passengers. If some don't show up, the life support they paid for is now extra and can be sold to other passengers later on.


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The numbers are for comparing 3 otherwise identical Dropships with different interior designs.  The cargo Union has 1800 tons available, and can carry 1800 tons.  The Infantry(Passenger) Bays Union Dropship has 95% of that 1800 tons available for non-passenger cargo.  The Steeraage Bays Union Dropship has less than 10% of that 1800 tons available for non-passenger cargo.  This means that the Steerage Quarters Union has to focus on getting passengers board, or charge over ten times as much for shipping cargo.  The Infantry(Pssenger) Bays can carry non-passenger cargo, and only charge 5% more than the standard cargo Union.

I believe you are mixing Infantry Bays with Infantry Compartments. Compartments can be used by infantry or cargo. Bays are used by infantry. Although if a bay were empty I wouldn't have a problem throwing cargo into it. Like filling up a Mech Bay with a 20 ton mech and 80 tons of cargo. That'd be a house rule but I'm open to it. However, there will be some tonnage lost do to the bunks and such that are a part of the bay.


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The 50k C-Bills is for Jumpship travel, and needs to be charged if the Jumpship is going to turn a profit.  A Jumpship can charge 50k C-0Bills for access to a 1 kiloton piece of equipment.  If you wantt t carry cargo on board a Jumpship through an FTL jump, then you will be paying t least 50 C-Bills per ton just for the Jumpship fee.

If the Jumpship doesn't have a collar, then if it carries commercial freight it will still need to charge a fee, has less than 5% of its expensive mass available for cargo, and will still need Dropships (or Small Craft, or a space station) at both ends to get that cargo offloaded.

Is the fee for the jumpship or for the collar because not all jumpships have collars. Of those that do, they aren't always filled. Travel to and from the planets would be a part of the ticket price.

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I was making 2 assumptions.  First is that civilians would not get carried at the same 'density' as military troopers.  Second is that limiting it to 20 people per Bay is easier to calculate Life Support demands than 28 or 30 per bay.

If you're going to maximize passengers, civilian will be more crowded than military. Civilians don't have to go charging out the doors into battle.


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The key is that space in a Steerage (or 2nd Class, or 1st Class) does not translate to keeping someone alive.  Volkswagon stuffing worked because there was access to outside air.  Submersible stuffing does not work because even though the linked submersible is 1.5* as heavy as a volkswagon bus, most of the mass is taken up by heavier equipment.

I have no idea where you're getting the weights for things. I also don't think the people at the bottom of the VW are going to notice if the windows are down or not. Also, bays and quarters have a certain amount of life support equipment built in. They're the air scrubbers and filters and circulation equipment and pumps and things. The more robust the system the more people they can keep alive. They're not designed for it but they are capable of doing so. Like stuffing 20 people into a VW. It's like Apollo 13 mission where the 2 man lander had to keep 3 men alive. They weren't designed for it and they had to do some jury rigging to make it work but it worked. Only here we don't have to jury rig.

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The fee is 50k for Jumpship travel, not Warship travel.  You also missed that the Potemkin is ~18* as expensive as a Monolith, while only carrying almost 2.5* as many Dropships.  That means it is roughly 6* as expensive per Dropship collar.

A dropship collar is a dropship collar. And we're not talking the cost of the ship. Just the cost of passage between two points on the ship. And while the Potemkin may be ~18* as expensive as a single Monolith, you still need to buy three jumpships. If not more. Not all jumpships carry 9 dropships. Most carry far less. And again, if mass hauling were all there was there wouldn't be jumpships with single collars, much less no collars. There are different sized ships for a reason. One of those is that a super hauler isn't going to stop at at every port. It'd be like a container ship pulling into port at a tiny fishing village.


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The Jumpship charter fee and Leopard charter fee are already being paid by the person making the shipping request.  The person doing speculative cargo only has to pay for the extra cargo at the departure site and the upgrade cost to charter the Union instead of the Leopard.  Check the math yourself, about how much it would cost to charter a Jumpship at 50k C-Bills per week (assuming average rate of travel is 1 jump per week), taking into account the time needed for the Leopard to travel to and from the destination planet.  Now calculate the increase in charter cost if a Union was used instead of the Leopard.  That difference in cost (plus the price of the goods in a buyer's market) is the cost that the speculative seller has to cover.

Problem with that is you've already got the Leopard. If you go deciding to carry more cargo that's a second dropship. It could also mean a second jumpship depending on the amount of collars the first one has. The seller is also having to pay all that upfront and hope they can make the money back selling the extra cargo. That won't happen if they flood the market.

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Hot bunking as long as you have sufficient life support (of which a single Steerage Quarters can only support one person) and can support 200 man-days.  If you have more people than the Steerage Quarters can support, you are using Life Support at a rate of 5 man-days per ton.

200 man days is 200 men per day or 1 man per 200 days.


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Taking turns in a bathroom is one thing.  Having more people than the recycling system can handle is a good way to have a ship full of corpses because there was not enough oxygen production.  Locking the door open just means the life support system that can only support one person is now being used to support 2+ people (aka not enough).

And yet that's exactly what the books says happens when a ship is over crowded. The issue are the amount of life support (cargo) and the quality of life support equipment (quarters, bays, cargo). If you don't have enough life support (cargo) people die. If you don't have enough life support equipment (quarters, bays, cargo) people die. At 200 man days per ton of cargo Steerage can support 200 men per day. If there's 201 they have a problem. A Bay with 30 people and only 1 ton of life support (20 men per day) they have a problem.
 

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All that life support equipment is doing is using 1/10 the Life support tonnage.  So the Bay personnel might be using oxygen cannisters and CO2 scrubbers as part of their 50 kg per person per day mass usage, while the Steerage Quarters has a full algae setup that recycles the CO2 into Oxygen, and only needs 5 kg per person per day to account for waste.

Why is it 20 men per day is okay for 1-20 men but 200 men per day is only for 1? That makes zero sense.  The more people using the system the harder the system will need to work. That's replacing filters, bottles and so on sooner. It's not add one person and everyone dies.


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Except in this case it is where the AC has to be on 24/7 to keep one person alive.

Been there. Am still there. The one closest to the unit gets the most benefit. That doesn't mean the person at the back won't see any benefit.


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I am assuming individual Foot soldiers are smaller than the vehicles used by Mechanized infantry.  Tat means if Mechanized infantry can physically drive their vehicles through a part of the ship, then Foot soldiers can also physically get through that part of the ship.  The Troopers would have their own Bay(s), they would just be arranged so the larger stuff is closer to the doors.

It isn't just the passing through. It's the getting ready for combat. Instead of having places for infantry to put their stuff and get ready, they're not using floor space because the bay was meant to park a vehicle.

I mean one of the things that you can also look at is that the IS average biweekly salary for the middle class is 608c-bills (highest being the LC at around 800, lowest is in the periphery at around 500). That works out on my Two Condors sheet to a journey of around 30 days and 3 jumps costing around 630 for either infantry bay passengers or steerage ones. So its certainly an investment but it is doable assuming there is space

Yeah, I can see people saving up or getting a loan to go on a trip. It's certainly doable with those prices and that income.

The Fool

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Re: How common is interstellar travel?
« Reply #64 on: 01 May 2022, 08:42:35 »

200 man days is 200 men per day or 1 man per 200 days.


Sigh

why not 400 men per 12 hours or 800 men per 6 hours? What about 17280000 men per second?

let me make this clear.
             1 crew quarter can support 1 person per day and it costs 5kg of consumables to do that.
             1 transport bay can support 30 people per day and it costs 1.5 tons of consumables  to do that.
             Other wise to support X people per day it costs 0.2X tons of consumables.
You need to understand the bolded part.
A single quarters can not and will not support more than a single person in a single day at a cost of 5kg per person. They are made for one person to use, their recycling systems are made to support that one person with 100% efficiency.

You can go on about hot bunking and VW's all you want but any people in excess of the number of quarters and bays require 200kg of consumables each per day.

idea weenie

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Re: How common is interstellar travel?
« Reply #65 on: 03 May 2022, 04:16:10 »
He didn't. Life support is based on the number of passengers. If some don't show up, the life support they paid for is now extra and can be sold to other passengers later on.

Then it is up to the Captain, and not us to decide.

I believe you are mixing Infantry Bays with Infantry Compartments. Compartments can be used by infantry or cargo. Bays are used by infantry. Although if a bay were empty I wouldn't have a problem throwing cargo into it. Like filling up a Mech Bay with a 20 ton mech and 80 tons of cargo. That'd be a house rule but I'm open to it. However, there will be some tonnage lost do to the bunks and such that are a part of the bay.

Infantry Compartment = the small tonnage-using item put in vehicles to simulate the carrying of infantry by a Bradley or similar APC.
Infantry Bay = the larger tonnage-using item used to haul infantry via Dropships.

The key is that the cargo needs for Life Support for an Infantry Bay are far greater, so if there aren't enough Infantry (or Passengers) the Dropship can serve as a cargo carrier with a mild increase in price.  A Dropship set up with Steerage Quarters has to focus on carrying passengers because there is so little cargo space available due to Steerage Quarters being very efficient.

Is the fee for the jumpship or for the collar because not all jumpships have collars. Of those that do, they aren't always filled. Travel to and from the planets would be a part of the ticket price.

If you're going to maximize passengers, civilian will be more crowded than military. Civilians don't have to go charging out the doors into battle.

The fee is for the collar used, and serves as  guideline to determine costs for how much a ticket on just the Jumpship costs.  Limit is 30 people per Bay or Compartment.  20 just makes the math easy.  Civilians are also more cranky than military, wanting stuff like privacy, sound insulation, and individual rooms.

I have no idea where you're getting the weights for things. I also don't think the people at the bottom of the VW are going to notice if the windows are down or not. Also, bays and quarters have a certain amount of life support equipment built in. They're the air scrubbers and filters and circulation equipment and pumps and things. The more robust the system the more people they can keep alive. They're not designed for it but they are capable of doing so. Like stuffing 20 people into a VW. It's like Apollo 13 mission where the 2 man lander had to keep 3 men alive. They weren't designed for it and they had to do some jury rigging to make it work but it worked. Only here we don't have to jury rig.

Weight of a VW bus (from Google) = ~3000 lbs (with capacity for ~2000 lbs)
Weight of the submersible in the link I provided = 2500 kg (or about 5500 lbs total)
That is where I got the numbers from.  Just because two items have the same or similar masses, does not mean they will be able to support the same number of people.  Those air scrubbers/filtration systems are included in the Life support Tonnage (20 man-days for Bays, 200 man-days for Quarters).  The need for extra scrubbers is already take up by the higher daily mass needed.

A dropship collar is a dropship collar. And we're not talking the cost of the ship. Just the cost of passage between two points on the ship. And while the Potemkin may be ~18* as expensive as a single Monolith, you still need to buy three jumpships. If not more. Not all jumpships carry 9 dropships. Most carry far less. And again, if mass hauling were all there was there wouldn't be jumpships with single collars, much less no collars. There are different sized ships for a reason. One of those is that a super hauler isn't going to stop at at every port. It'd be like a container ship pulling into port at a tiny fishing village.

Dropship Collar costs were listed for pre-Clan timeframes, when there were no Warships around.  The cost of the ship has to be paid for, one way or another.  If you are traveling from one system to another via Jumpship, you will pay a fee.  As to buying more ships:

Cost of a Monolith = less than 1.7 billion C-Bills, provides 8-9 Dropship Collars (depending if you use StratOps round down rules, or TacOps:AU&E round up rules)
Cost of 3 Monoliths = less than 5.1 billion C-Bills (provides 24-27 Dropship Collars)
Cost of 1 Potemkin = 30 billion C-Bills (provides 25 Collars)

If a Potemkin is 18* as much as a Monolith, and I have to buy 3 Monoliths to provide similar transportation capacity, that means I have to spend 6* as much to buy the Potemkin compared to buying 3 Monoliths.  That means my bank loan will be 6* higher than buying 3 Monoliths, and the maintenance will be 6* higher than three Monoliths.

As to Jumpship sizes, of course they will be different sizes based on market needs.  The most efficient haulers will set the transportation costs low in their area, driving the more expensive Jumpships to outer areas, and those outer areas have to pay more for shipping.  Higher prices for shipping will reduce demand.

Problem with that is you've already got the Leopard. If you go deciding to carry more cargo that's a second dropship. It could also mean a second jumpship depending on the amount of collars the first one has. The seller is also having to pay all that upfront and hope they can make the money back selling the extra cargo. That won't happen if they flood the market.

Read it again.  I was not augmenting the Leopard with a Union, I was replacing the Leopard with a Union.  So the larger amount of cargo still only needs a single Dropship Collar.  If the destination representative is hoping to avoid flooding the market, I can just sell the extra stuff to them and let them deal with the extra product and selling it off (often at the same price they were planning to sell the original batch).  The representative may order half as often as a result, but they are paying 1/3 less for FTL shipping and handling meaning their profit margin will larger.  If they need to order more often just to maintain communications with the rest of the Inner Sphere, that is another issue.

200 man days is 200 men per day or 1 man per 200 days.

If there is sufficient equipment to allow using it at that rate.  If I have 1 Gauss Rifle and 2 tons of ammo, that does not mean I can fire all 16 shots in a single turn.  A single Steerage Quarter can only use 1 man-day of support per day, and can only support one person.

And yet that's exactly what the books says happens when a ship is over crowded. The issue are the amount of life support (cargo) and the quality of life support equipment (quarters, bays, cargo). If you don't have enough life support (cargo) people die. If you don't have enough life support equipment (quarters, bays, cargo) people die. At 200 man days per ton of cargo Steerage can support 200 men per day. If there's 201 they have a problem. A Bay with 30 people and only 1 ton of life support (20 men per day) they have a problem.
 

A single Steerage Quarter can only support 1 person.  If you try to put a second person in that Steerage Quarter, that Steerage Quarter will not be able to process the material through fast enough to keep both alive.  This means either both people die, or the second person is being carried at Cargo Bay rates (5 man-days per ton).  If you want Steerage Quarters to support 200 men per day, then you need 200 Steerage Quarters massing a total of 1000 tons.

Why is it 20 men per day is okay for 1-20 men but 200 men per day is only for 1? That makes zero sense.  The more people using the system the harder the system will need to work. That's replacing filters, bottles and so on sooner. It's not add one person and everyone dies.

The difference is because Infantry/Passenger Bays are different from Steerage Quarters.  Because if there is only 1 Steerage Quarter, then that Steerage Quarter can only support one person.  If you want to support more people, then you need more Steerage Quarters, more 2nd Class Quarters, and/or more 1st Class Quarters.  An Infantry (or Passenger) Bay can handle enough life support for up to 30 (or 20) people.  A Steerage Quarter can only handle up to 1 man-day per day.

Been there. Am still there. The one closest to the unit gets the most benefit. That doesn't mean the person at the back won't see any benefit.

Except in this case they won't.  A single Steerage Quarter can only support one person.  If you want to support more than one person, you need to install more than 1 Quarter.

It isn't just the passing through. It's the getting ready for combat. Instead of having places for infantry to put their stuff and get ready, they're not using floor space because the bay was meant to park a vehicle.

Infantry place their gear in the Infantry Bay.  When it is time to deploy they put their gear on in the Bay.  After that, they assemble.

Dayton3

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Re: How common is interstellar travel?
« Reply #66 on: 03 May 2022, 10:11:05 »
This thread reminds me of a passage in one of the original House source books that said to the effect that "If you can wrap yourself around the idea of traveling between the stars in a jumpship and then traveling between towns on a jackass...then you get life in these Successor States".

AlphaMirage

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Re: How common is interstellar travel?
« Reply #67 on: 03 May 2022, 11:07:01 »
Yep, gotta love the scope of this setting. You get everything from. BSG to Firefly and Terminator

RifleMech

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Re: How common is interstellar travel?
« Reply #68 on: 04 May 2022, 02:42:12 »
Infantry Compartment = the small tonnage-using item put in vehicles to simulate the carrying of infantry by a Bradley or similar APC.
Infantry Bay = the larger tonnage-using item used to haul infantry via Dropships.

The key is that the cargo needs for Life Support for an Infantry Bay are far greater, so if there aren't enough Infantry (or Passengers) the Dropship can serve as a cargo carrier with a mild increase in price.  A Dropship set up with Steerage Quarters has to focus on carrying passengers because there is so little cargo space available due to Steerage Quarters being very efficient.


If Steerage Quarters or the Bays are you could throw the same tonnage of cargo into them.


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The fee is for the collar used, and serves as  guideline to determine costs for how much a ticket on just the Jumpship costs.  Limit is 30 people per Bay or Compartment.  20 just makes the math easy.  Civilians are also more cranky than military, wanting stuff like privacy, sound insulation, and individual rooms.

If the collar isn't used, or there isn't one, why a fee for it? Math may easier with 20 but if you're going for max passengers, the math will be more complicated. Which is why they'd prefer their own quarters.



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Weight of a VW bus (from Google) = ~3000 lbs (with capacity for ~2000 lbs)
Weight of the submersible in the link I provided = 2500 kg (or about 5500 lbs total)
That is where I got the numbers from.  Just because two items have the same or similar masses, does not mean they will be able to support the same number of people.  Those air scrubbers/filtration systems are included in the Life support Tonnage (20 man-days for Bays, 200 man-days for Quarters).  The need for extra scrubbers is already take up by the higher daily mass needed.

If the internal volume is the same, 20 people will fit into the sub. Which is why steerage is better. It has 10 times the support per ton of cargo.



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Dropship Collar costs were listed for pre-Clan timeframes, when there were no Warships around.  The cost of the ship has to be paid for, one way or another.  If you are traveling from one system to another via Jumpship, you will pay a fee.  As to buying more ships:

And the price during the Age of War? Star League Era? 1st Succession War?


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Cost of a Monolith = less than 1.7 billion C-Bills, provides 8-9 Dropship Collars (depending if you use StratOps round down rules, or TacOps:AU&E round up rules)
Cost of 3 Monoliths = less than 5.1 billion C-Bills (provides 24-27 Dropship Collars)
Cost of 1 Potemkin = 30 billion C-Bills (provides 25 Collars)

If a Potemkin is 18* as much as a Monolith, and I have to buy 3 Monoliths to provide similar transportation capacity, that means I have to spend 6* as much to buy the Potemkin compared to buying 3 Monoliths.  That means my bank loan will be 6* higher than buying 3 Monoliths, and the maintenance will be 6* higher than three Monoliths.

Sure. And those super tankers and container ships aren't cheap either, but they'll move far more cargo. Just like modern cruise ships can carry more passengers than one from a previous era. That doesn't stop them from being used. And maintenance is 24 hours for a warship, 6 for a jumpship. So it wouldn't be 6 times as much.


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As to Jumpship sizes, of course they will be different sizes based on market needs.  The most efficient haulers will set the transportation costs low in their area, driving the more expensive Jumpships to outer areas, and those outer areas have to pay more for shipping.  Higher prices for shipping will reduce demand.

Jumpships carrying the most cargo will operate between planets with the most production and demand. Smaller ships will operate between them and outer areas.

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Read it again.  I was not augmenting the Leopard with a Union, I was replacing the Leopard with a Union.  So the larger amount of cargo still only needs a single Dropship Collar.  If the destination representative is hoping to avoid flooding the market, I can just sell the extra stuff to them and let them deal with the extra product and selling it off (often at the same price they were planning to sell the original batch).  The representative may order half as often as a result, but they are paying 1/3 less for FTL shipping and handling meaning their profit margin will larger.  If they need to order more often just to maintain communications with the rest of the Inner Sphere, that is another issue.

You're still renting more dropship than you need. You're also paying for cargo, and shipping, on the hopes that someone will buy it. You'll also have to store it until it is sold. So you're increasing your costs on the hope that you can make a sale. And what's the Leopard going to do when you go and hire another ship?



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If there is sufficient equipment to allow using it at that rate.  If I have 1 Gauss Rifle and 2 tons of ammo, that does not mean I can fire all 16 shots in a single turn.  A single Steerage Quarter can only use 1 man-day of support per day, and can only support one person.

It's built in. That's why steerage is better.


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A single Steerage Quarter can only support 1 person.  If you try to put a second person in that Steerage Quarter, that Steerage Quarter will not be able to process the material through fast enough to keep both alive.  This means either both people die, or the second person is being carried at Cargo Bay rates (5 man-days per ton).  If you want Steerage Quarters to support 200 men per day, then you need 200 Steerage Quarters massing a total of 1000 tons.

Tell that to the crew of Apollo 13. 3 men kept alive on a ship designed for 2. If life support systems were as limited as you say, they would have all died. Since they came back alive, life support systems are a bit better than 1 person only.


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The difference is because Infantry/Passenger Bays are different from Steerage Quarters.  Because if there is only 1 Steerage Quarter, then that Steerage Quarter can only support one person.  If you want to support more people, then you need more Steerage Quarters, more 2nd Class Quarters, and/or more 1st Class Quarters.  An Infantry (or Passenger) Bay can handle enough life support for up to 30 (or 20) people.  A Steerage Quarter can only handle up to 1 man-day per day.



Except in this case they won't.  A single Steerage Quarter can only support one person.  If you want to support more than one person, you need to install more than 1 Quarter.

Steerage can handle up to 200 men per day.

Except it does. I've provided quotes from the rule books saying so.


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Infantry place their gear in the Infantry Bay.  When it is time to deploy they put their gear on in the Bay.  After that, they assemble.

If there's more than one unit using the bay, they can't keep their gear in it. It would have to go with them into cargo or there wouldn't be room for the next unit.



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Re: How common is interstellar travel?
« Reply #69 on: 05 May 2022, 09:13:32 »
If Steerage Quarters or the Bays are you could throw the same tonnage of cargo into them.

Steerage bay tonnage reflects the additional ship life support, not extra room for people.  StratOps p137: "advanced aerospace units must allocate weight to quarters for every crewman, as such quarters represent expansions on the unit’s life support apparatus"

If the collar isn't used, or there isn't one, why a fee for it? Math may easier with 20 but if you're going for max passengers, the math will be more complicated. Which is why they'd prefer their own quarters. 

The fee is for traveling FTL.  You travel FTL by being in a Dropship attached to a Docking Collar, or by taking up room on the Jumpship.  If you don't pay the fee, you don't travel by Jumpship.

If the internal volume is the same, 20 people will fit into the sub. Which is why steerage is better. It has 10 times the support per ton of cargo.

The internal volume is not the same.

A Steerage Quarter is only taking advantage of better life support systems.  It is not providing the ability to support more than one person.  If you want to support more than one person, you need more than one Quarter (i.e. all the ship design examples in StrateOps on p138).  If it was possible for only one Steerage Quarter to support multiple people, then those designs would have only had a single Quarter to support everyone.

Try putting a design using your Steerage capacity rules into the Aerospace design sub-forum.  Mention in the title the advantage of using this design.  Include the StratOps book references to back up the Steerage Quarter capacity.  See what the response is.

And the price during the Age of War? Star League Era? 1st Succession War?

If traveling by Jumpship, 50k (or potentially cheaper due to more available repair and maintenance centers).  If the ship needs more maintenance due to more expensive items (i.e. a Compact core vessel with more Docking Collars and modified for cargo hauling), then the Jumpship will still be cheaper.

Sure. And those super tankers and container ships aren't cheap either, but they'll move far more cargo. Just like modern cruise ships can carry more passengers than one from a previous era. That doesn't stop them from being used. And maintenance is 24 hours for a warship, 6 for a jumpship. So it wouldn't be 6 times as much.

The Potemkin is only transporting the same number of Dropships as the triple-Monolith setup, but the Potemkin is 6* as expensive as the three Monoliths.  You seem to be arguing that a ship 6* as expensive as a group of smaller vessels is just as economically viable.  If  supertanker carried 3* as much crude oil and cost 18* as much, would the design be built or discarded?  This is ignoring port capacities, as space has plenty of room for multiple Jumpships to fit at the zenith or Nadir jump point.

Jumpships carrying the most cargo will operate between planets with the most production and demand. Smaller ships will operate between them and outer areas.

Jumpships carrying the most cargo per C-Bill, yes.  So if a Jumpship costs 50k per Collar, and a Warship costs 18* as much yet only carries 3* as many Dropships, will that Warship be used or will the cheaper Jumpship flotilla be used instead?

You're still renting more dropship than you need. You're also paying for cargo, and shipping, on the hopes that someone will buy it. You'll also have to store it until it is sold. So you're increasing your costs on the hope that you can make a sale. And what's the Leopard going to do when you go and hire another ship?

I don't have to store it, the locals store it.  The transit in-system gives me ~10 days to find buyers.  And while the shipping cost is higher when using the Union, most of the cost has already been paid by the buyer:
Scout Jumpship rented for 2 jumps (1 to the destination, 1 from the destination, and any Jumps in between is for the Scout to decide): 2 * 50k C-Bills/ = 100k C-Bills
Rental of the Leopard Dropship for the entire shipping trip, assuming 100 C-Bills/ton of cargo: 90,000 C-Bills
That is 190k C-Bills that has already been budgeted for by the shipper, plus whatever the shipper wants to buy from the source planet.  Shipping cost per ton that the buyer had no problem paying: 211 C-Bills

My change:
Scout Jumpship rented for 2 jumps (1 to the destination, 1 from the destination, and any Jumps in between is for the Scout to decide): 2 * 50k C-Bills/ = 100k C-Bills
Rental of the Union Dropship for the entire shipping trip, assuming 100 C-Bills/ton of cargo: 180,000 C-Bills
That is 280k C-Bills.  The person up-sizing the trip only has to pay the 90,000 C-Bills difference, and is delivering an additional 900 tons of cargo.  Shipping cost for this additional cargo is only 100 C-Bills per ton.

Run the math.  Set up your own spreadsheet, set up your own fees per ton of cargo, and see what the additional shipping cost is for a cargo Union vs for a cargo Leopard.  That is the only fee that the person upselling has to cover (plus costs of buying the materials in the first place)

As for the Leopard, it will be doing orbital hops or planet-moon cargo transfer.  Trips that aren't limited by Jumpships.  The only concern is if someone needs to deliver a single piece of cargo massing 901 tons (or more).

It's built in. That's why steerage is better.

The only life support included in the Steerage Quarter mass is the ability to support 1 person while consuming 5 kg of life support per day.  If you want to support more people in Steerage, you need to install one Steerage Quarter per person.

Tell that to the crew of Apollo 13. 3 men kept alive on a ship designed for 2. If life support systems were as limited as you say, they would have all died. Since they came back alive, life support systems are a bit better than 1 person only. 

The one where they were using oxygen bottles and CO2 scrubbers instead of full recycling life-support systems?  Sounds like they were using Bay Life Support, if not cargo life support.

Steerage can handle up to 200 men per day.

Except it does. I've provided quotes from the rule books saying so.

1 ton of Life Support for Steerage can handle up to 200 people only if it has the Quarter equipment to be processed correctly.  The designs in the StratOps book only put one person per Quarter.  If only one Quarter was needed for as many people as desired, that means every design currently existing will need to be redone.  Those are the rules governing ship construction, not speeches.

If there's more than one unit using the bay, they can't keep their gear in it. It would have to go with them into cargo or there wouldn't be room for the next unit.

Each platoon is using their own bay.  Foot Infantry platoon #1 is stored in Foot infantry platoon Bay #1.  Mechanized Infantry platoon #1 is stored in Mechanized infantry platoon Bay #1.  Foot Infantry platoon #2 is stored in Foot infantry platoon Bay #2.  Mechanized Infantry platoon #2 is stored in Mechanized infantry platoon Bay #2.  Foot Infantry platoon #3 is stored in Foot infantry platoon Bay #3.  Mechanized Infantry platoon #3 is stored in Mechanized infantry platoon Bay #3.  Foot Infantry platoon #4 is stored in Foot infantry platoon Bay #4, etc, for life support purposes.  The Foot Infantry platoons just have to walk through the Mechanized infantry bay in order to leave the Dropship.

RifleMech

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Re: How common is interstellar travel?
« Reply #70 on: 07 May 2022, 17:00:12 »
Steerage bay tonnage reflects the additional ship life support, not extra room for people.  StratOps p137: "advanced aerospace units must allocate weight to quarters for every crewman, as such quarters represent expansions on the unit’s life support apparatus"

SO p160
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The Union-class of the Third Succession War is a good example. Despite being larger than this building, it crammed about
thirty crewmen into a bunkroom distinctly smaller than this lecture
hall.
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To compound the problem, military ships were often overloaded with additional passengers, like technicians, ground security details, command lances and so on. In such circumstances, there were not enough berths for each crewmember and passenger, so bunks were shared in rotating shifts: the “hot bunking” system, so called because your bunk was still “hot” from the last guy when you climbed into it.
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Civilian ships generally give much more volume and weight for crew and passengers, especially passenger liners, and are willing to pay extra for improved air and water quality. The closest civilian ships might come to “hot bunking” is to split officer-class quarters, the so-called luxury quarters, between two passengers or crewmen, effectively reducing the quarters to steerage-class. But it’ll have much nicer brass trim than your normal steerage quarters.


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The fee is for traveling FTL.  You travel FTL by being in a Dropship attached to a Docking Collar, or by taking up room on the Jumpship.  If you don't pay the fee, you don't travel by Jumpship.

If the Jumpship doesn't have a docking collar how can there be a fee for one? 


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The internal volume is not the same.

A Steerage Quarter is only taking advantage of better life support systems.  It is not providing the ability to support more than one person.  If you want to support more than one person, you need more than one Quarter (i.e. all the ship design examples in StrateOps on p138).  If it was possible for only one Steerage Quarter to support multiple people, then those designs would have only had a single Quarter to support everyone.

Volume can be. BT is weird about volume.

Sure it is. Which is why it can support more. Think of it like a SCUBA system. SCUBA Tanks are made for 1 person but they can support more. Supporting more means the air runs out twice as fast. In our case Cargo is like a SCUBA Tank. Bays are like Rebreathers. Quarters are like oxygen generators. They're designed for a certain number. The more you add, the quicker they run out.


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Try putting a design using your Steerage capacity rules into the Aerospace design sub-forum.  Mention in the title the advantage of using this design.  Include the StratOps book references to back up the Steerage Quarter capacity.  See what the response is.

I don't need to. I imagine the responses will be the same. Some will agree with me in that system can be overloaded. Like the fluff says. Others will insist on rules only. Which is fine for a game. The BT universe isn't the rules though. There's many examples where the "rules" aren't followed. Not only that but the rules have changed several times.


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If traveling by Jumpship, 50k (or potentially cheaper due to more available repair and maintenance centers).  If the ship needs more maintenance due to more expensive items (i.e. a Compact core vessel with more Docking Collars and modified for cargo hauling), then the Jumpship will still be cheaper.

Aren't compact cores more expensive?

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The Potemkin is only transporting the same number of Dropships as the triple-Monolith setup, but the Potemkin is 6* as expensive as the three Monoliths.  You seem to be arguing that a ship 6* as expensive as a group of smaller vessels is just as economically viable.  If  supertanker carried 3* as much crude oil and cost 18* as much, would the design be built or discarded?  This is ignoring port capacities, as space has plenty of room for multiple Jumpships to fit at the zenith or Nadir jump point.

Are you saying supertankers cost less even though they're so much bigger?

Not when you consider the Potemkin's cargo capacity. The Potemkin can carry 373,677 tons of cargo, including 10 small craft. A Mammoth class Dropship carries 37, 767 tons of cargo. That's just over 10% of the Potemkin's cargo capacity. Add in the 25 drop collars and the Potemkin is carrying 35 dropships worth of cargo. So you'd need 4 Monoliths to carry the cargo of 1 Potemkin.

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Jumpships carrying the most cargo per C-Bill, yes.  So if a Jumpship costs 50k per Collar, and a Warship costs 18* as much yet only carries 3* as many Dropships, will that Warship be used or will the cheaper Jumpship flotilla be used instead?

Where's it say that? I'm finding is that Military transport costs more but we're not discussing Military Transport so that doesn't apply.


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I don't have to store it, the locals store it.  The transit in-system gives me ~10 days to find buyers.  And while the shipping cost is higher when using the Union, most of the cost has already been paid by the buyer:

They're just going to give you a warehouse to store everything in unit you can sell it? I don't think so. You're going to pay rent or buy your own.


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Run the math.  Set up your own spreadsheet, set up your own fees per ton of cargo, and see what the additional shipping cost is for a cargo Union vs for a cargo Leopard.  That is the only fee that the person upselling has to cover (plus costs of buying the materials in the first place)

You're presuming there's more money in the budget and you're numbers are off.

Planet A has a Leopard that you rented to go to Planet B and pick up cargo that was ordered. That's your budget.

If you want to hire a Union for the entire trip, you first have to get the Union to Planet A. Then make a round trip to Planet B and back. Where's the money for getting the Union to Planet B?

If you rent a Union at Planet B to carry more supplies, where did the money for those supplies come from? It wasn't in the budget. You also have to pay for the cost of the Union to get to Planet A and back, as well as for the Leopard you rented for a round trip. Where's the money for a second dropship and jumpship travel in the budget?


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As for the Leopard, it will be doing orbital hops or planet-moon cargo transfer.  Trips that aren't limited by Jumpships.  The only concern is if someone needs to deliver a single piece of cargo massing 901 tons (or more).

Sure you might be able to rent out the Leopard at Planet B but you still need to get it back to Planet A. Will you make enough to book another trip on a Jumpship?



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The only life support included in the Steerage Quarter mass is the ability to support 1 person while consuming 5 kg of life support per day.  If you want to support more people in Steerage, you need to install one Steerage Quarter per person.

Life support is the cargo. The equipment is built in and see the quotes above.


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The one where they were using oxygen bottles and CO2 scrubbers instead of full recycling life-support systems?  Sounds like they were using Bay Life Support, if not cargo life support.

I'm not sure Bays would fit on those ships. Even if they could, Bays aren't allowed to be used as Quarters. Really there shouldn't be a problem with that. You just need to carry more cargo for life support. But like I said before, I believe TPTB are trying to avoid Munkinism. Swapping Quarters for Bays can free up a lot of tonnage for weapons, ammo and armor.



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1 ton of Life Support for Steerage can handle up to 200 people only if it has the Quarter equipment to be processed correctly.  The designs in the StratOps book only put one person per Quarter.  If only one Quarter was needed for as many people as desired, that means every design currently existing will need to be redone.  Those are the rules governing ship construction, not speeches.

Again, the universe and the rules do not always agree. And no designs would not need to be redone. There's a difference intended use, over use, and emergency use. The 1 person per quarters is obviously intended use. The math does support over and emergency use.

Let's try it this way. An Aerospace Fighter has 96 hours of life support. The ASF also has a Rumble Seat. So if a passenger is carried that 96 hours becomes 48. Have a second passenger sitting on the first passenger's lap and the ASF's life support is reduced to
32 hours. And 200 man days per ton is 1 man for 200 days up to 200 men for 1 day. The more it's used, the less it lasts.


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Each platoon is using their own bay.  Foot Infantry platoon #1 is stored in Foot infantry platoon Bay #1.  Mechanized Infantry platoon #1 is stored in Mechanized infantry platoon Bay #1.  Foot Infantry platoon #2 is stored in Foot infantry platoon Bay #2.  Mechanized Infantry platoon #2 is stored in Mechanized infantry platoon Bay #2.  Foot Infantry platoon #3 is stored in Foot infantry platoon Bay #3.  Mechanized Infantry platoon #3 is stored in Mechanized infantry platoon Bay #3.  Foot Infantry platoon #4 is stored in Foot infantry platoon Bay #4, etc, for life support purposes.  The Foot Infantry platoons just have to walk through the Mechanized infantry bay in order to leave the Dropship.

You missed what I was saying. Troops can be staying in quarters and assemble in a Bay. A transport is carrying 4 Foot Infantry Platoons. Three of them are in quarters. The 4th in a bay. The 4th gets deployed first. Then Platoon 1 musters into the bay and gets deployed. Then the 2nd and then the 3rd. They deploy out a bay door. They're not going to muster in a Motorized Infantry Bay because it isn't set up for them. It'd be like a ProtoMech trying to get ready in a Mech Bay. Sure the Proto will fit but the Bay isn't set up for it.

Also, there's only a certain number of doors so several platoon bays may share the same door.

idea weenie

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Re: How common is interstellar travel?
« Reply #71 on: 10 May 2022, 03:28:24 »
SO p160

The first quote is about putting people into rooms, but the p137 says that the extra tonnage is for expansion to the unit's life support apparatus.
The second quote is about finding physical room for people, not the effect of those extra people on the life support systems.
The third quote is only talking about room quality, not how much air is being produced for the people to breathe.

Overloading is accomplished by using the life support system in open-cycle mode, as it is not meant for that level of usage.  This consumption is 5 man-days per ton of life-support.  You are also comparing a speech given by a person trying to get the basics across, vs the actual requirements of keeping people alive.

If the Jumpship doesn't have a docking collar how can there be a fee for one? 

Are you traveling FTL?  You pay for that capability.  If there is no Docking Collar then Dropships cannot pay to use a Docking Collar, but if you want to travel FTL then you will be paying a fee.  Jumpships won't carry people for free, someone will be paying for the tonnage used.

Volume can be. BT is weird about volume.

Sure it is. Which is why it can support more. Think of it like a SCUBA system. SCUBA Tanks are made for 1 person but they can support more. Supporting more means the air runs out twice as fast. In our case Cargo is like a SCUBA Tank. Bays are like Rebreathers. Quarters are like oxygen generators. They're designed for a certain number. The more you add, the quicker they run out.

SCUBA tanks are pre-stored air, the 5 man-days/ton Life Support.  Quarters are recycling systems that turn CO2 back into O2.  If you want to go with Quarters as oxygen generators, then a single Quarter can only generate enough air for one person.  If you want more people to be kept alive, then you overload the life support and pay 200 kg per person per day.

I don't need to. I imagine the responses will be the same. Some will agree with me in that system can be overloaded. Like the fluff says. Others will insist on rules only. Which is fine for a game. The BT universe isn't the rules though. There's many examples where the "rules" aren't followed. Not only that but the rules have changed several times.

Where have the rules changed to allow multiple people per quarters?  Not fluff from someone giving a university lecture.

Aren't compact cores more expensive?

Which is why the price for using a compact-core vessel's Docking Collar is more expensive.  Which is why Jumpships are still cheaper per collar.

Are you saying supertankers cost less even though they're so much bigger?

Not when you consider the Potemkin's cargo capacity. The Potemkin can carry 373,677 tons of cargo, including 10 small craft. A Mammoth class Dropship carries 37, 767 tons of cargo. That's just over 10% of the Potemkin's cargo capacity. Add in the 25 drop collars and the Potemkin is carrying 35 dropships worth of cargo. So you'd need 4 Monoliths to carry the cargo of 1 Potemkin.

The comparison was for a vessel 18* as expensive with only 3* as much carrying capacity.

4 Monoliths = ~6.67 billion
1 Potemkin = 30 billion
Monoliths are still cheaper

Where's it say that? I'm finding is that Military transport costs more but we're not discussing Military Transport so that doesn't apply.

Price of a Potemkin was from MML, at about 30 billion C-Bills.  Price of a Monolith is also from MML, at about 1.66 billion  C-Bills.  From there, I divided 30 by 1.66, and got about 18.  Since the Potemkin has ~3* as many Collars and is 18* as expensive, that is 6* as expensive per collar.

They're just going to give you a warehouse to store everything in unit you can sell it? I don't think so. You're going to pay rent or buy your own.
You're presuming there's more money in the budget and you're numbers are off.

Planet A has a Leopard that you rented to go to Planet B and pick up cargo that was ordered. That's your budget.

If you want to hire a Union for the entire trip, you first have to get the Union to Planet A. Then make a round trip to Planet B and back. Where's the money for getting the Union to Planet B?

If you rent a Union at Planet B to carry more supplies, where did the money for those supplies come from? It wasn't in the budget. You also have to pay for the cost of the Union to get to Planet A and back, as well as for the Leopard you rented for a round trip. Where's the money for a second dropship and jumpship travel in the budget?

Sure you might be able to rent out the Leopard at Planet B but you still need to get it back to Planet A. Will you make enough to book another trip on a Jumpship?

The warehouse may or may not be needed, as the arriving vessel will have ~10 days to find a buyer on-planet.  Radio still works while the Dropship is in transit.

The plan was for the destination planet to be buying from the source planet.  A Union would allow lower shipping costs per ton, and a decent merchant would be able to find something on the planet to be worth buying.  The destination planet is already paying for the Jumpship Leopard rental fees, the Union was just an additional 90k (or about 50% higher cost for 100% higher capacity).  If the only Dropship is the Leopard then obviously this will not work.  But if there is a Union (or a Mule), then using the larger Dropship to send goods is cheaper per ton.

If the destination planet is not willing to rent the Leopard for the entire trip, then the Leopard never goes to begin with (or it is a tramp freighter trying to break even)

Life support is the cargo. The equipment is built in and see the quotes above.

Life Support material is the cargo.  The equipment to turn that life support material into something that can support life is part of the tonnage for the Quarters, but each Quarter can only convert that into enough to support one person.  Otherwise you are looking at 1 ton/5 man-days (often by dumping the excess CO2 into space).  A single Steerage Quarter is like a Gauss Rifle, where it doesn't matter how many tons (or Life Support material) of ammo you may have, only one shot can be fired from the Gauss Rifle per turn (and a Quarter can only support one person per day at the 1/200 rate).

I'm not sure Bays would fit on those ships. Even if they could, Bays aren't allowed to be used as Quarters. Really there shouldn't be a problem with that. You just need to carry more cargo for life support. But like I said before, I believe TPTB are trying to avoid Munkinism. Swapping Quarters for Bays can free up a lot of tonnage for weapons, ammo and armor.

Bays are for short-term trips, while Quarters are used for long-term trips.  Warships and Jumpships are primarily long-trip vessels, so Quarters make more sense.  There might have been short-term Warships, Jumpships, and Dropships during the Star League, but that would have relied upon plentiful resupply locations.

Again, the universe and the rules do not always agree. And no designs would not need to be redone. There's a difference intended use, over use, and emergency use. The 1 person per quarters is obviously intended use. The math does support over and emergency use.

And at those over-use rates, you are paying 1 ton for every 5 man-days of life support needed beyond what each Quarter can provide.  So if you only have 20 Steerage Quarters and have to support 30 people, you will be using 2.1 tons of Life Support per day (20*1/200 + 10*1/5).  If you had refit part of the cargo bay into a single Foot Infantry Bay (5 tons, with capacity of up to 30 people), then you would be using .6 tons of Life Support per day (20*1/200 + 10*1/20).
The break-even point for hauling people in cargo bays vs in Foot Infantry Bays is less than 2 days:
5 tons for 20 people + 2 tons of Life support (1 ton/20 man-days * 20 people * 2 days) = 7 tons
0 tons for people in a Cargo Bay + 8 tons of Life Support (1 ton/5 man-days * 20 people * 2 days) = 8 tons

Let's try it this way. An Aerospace Fighter has 96 hours of life support. The ASF also has a Rumble Seat. So if a passenger is carried that 96 hours becomes 48. Have a second passenger sitting on the first passenger's lap and the ASF's life support is reduced to
32 hours. And 200 man days per ton is 1 man for 200 days up to 200 men for 1 day. The more it's used, the less it lasts.

ASF life support is the canned life support in Bays.  The ASF does not have a full recycling system.  Quarters have a full recycling system, but at normal loads it can only support 1 person per Quarter.  If you want to put more people than Quarters or Bays can handle, the life support will only provide 5 man-days per ton for the excess people because most of the waste is being dumped overboard.  As an example, look how much mass is needed in SCUBA tanks to keep one person alive for one day, and compare that with the mass of plants needed to keep one person alive for one day.

You missed what I was saying. Troops can be staying in quarters and assemble in a Bay. A transport is carrying 4 Foot Infantry Platoons. Three of them are in quarters. The 4th in a bay. The 4th gets deployed first. Then Platoon 1 musters into the bay and gets deployed. Then the 2nd and then the 3rd. They deploy out a bay door. They're not going to muster in a Motorized Infantry Bay because it isn't set up for them. It'd be like a ProtoMech trying to get ready in a Mech Bay. Sure the Proto will fit but the Bay isn't set up for it.

Also, there's only a certain number of doors so several platoon bays may share the same door.

The comment was about more than one unit using the bay.  I was trying to show that each Foot Infantry unit would have its own Foot Infantry Bay.  They may form up in the Mechanized bay after the vehicles have left in order to use the elbow room, but they do not live in the Mechanized Infantry Bay.

RifleMech

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Re: How common is interstellar travel?
« Reply #72 on: 11 May 2022, 05:39:29 »
The first quote is about putting people into rooms, but the p137 says that the extra tonnage is for expansion to the unit's life support apparatus.
The second quote is about finding physical room for people, not the effect of those extra people on the life support systems.
The third quote is only talking about room quality, not how much air is being produced for the people to breathe.

Overloading is accomplished by using the life support system in open-cycle mode, as it is not meant for that level of usage.  This consumption is 5 man-days per ton of life-support.  You are also comparing a speech given by a person trying to get the basics across, vs the actual requirements of keeping people alive.

The first quote throws 1 person per room out the airlock. In fact it calls into question the crew must be in quarters rule, when an Infantry Bay does the same job.

The second quote was about overloading. The bunk still being hot when the next person gets in is just a part of that. The bunk isn't the only thing being shared. Everything is, including life support. It isn't like they have to hold their breath for the next 16 hours until it's their turn in the bunk again.

Yes, quality. That means when someone flatulates next door, you won't smell it. It means water will be pure, not some weird color with a funky smell. It means that the head won't smell like a port-a-potty after a major sporting event in 100+ degree weather. It means hot water is hot and cold water is cold and showers last longer than 3 minuets. You an also flush and not get a scream from someone in the shower.

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Are you traveling FTL?  You pay for that capability.  If there is no Docking Collar then Dropships cannot pay to use a Docking Collar, but if you want to travel FTL then you will be paying a fee.  Jumpships won't carry people for free, someone will be paying for the tonnage used.

Moving the bar again. You can't charge a docking collar fee when there's no docking collar. If it's just an FTL fee, and FTL is so expensive, why are there jumpships with no docking collars?


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SCUBA tanks are pre-stored air, the 5 man-days/ton Life Support.  Quarters are recycling systems that turn CO2 back into O2.  If you want to go with Quarters as oxygen generators, then a single Quarter can only generate enough air for one person.  If you want more people to be kept alive, then you overload the life support and pay 200 kg per person per day.

Nope. Remember, hot bunking isn't just sharing a bunk but the environment. That's air and water.

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Where have the rules changed to allow multiple people per quarters?  Not fluff from someone giving a university lecture.

How many times have I said that Rules and Universe are not always the same? The Rules say you can't do a lot of things. There's many examples that say otherwise.


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Which is why the price for using a compact-core vessel's Docking Collar is more expensive.  Which is why Jumpships are still cheaper per collar.

Where are these prices? I'm only finding the price for military cargos.


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The comparison was for a vessel 18* as expensive with only 3* as much carrying capacity.

4 Monoliths = ~6.67 billion
1 Potemkin = 30 billion
Monoliths are still cheaper

Price of a Potemkin was from MML, at about 30 billion C-Bills.  Price of a Monolith is also from MML, at about 1.66 billion  C-Bills.  From there, I divided 30 by 1.66, and got about 18.  Since the Potemkin has ~3* as many Collars and is 18* as expensive, that is 6* as expensive per collar.

So you're basing the price on numbers from an unofficial product? And then you did you're own math? Where's it say that it costs 50,000 to book passage on a jumpship? What book? I'm not finding it. I'm finding the price to ship military cargo but not civilian.

Even if MML was 100% correct, and official, the Potemkin has more than 3 times the cargo capacity of the Monolith. That isn't included in the math when the math only looks at the number of collars. Also, while the price could be 18* as expensive if only one dropship collar was used, with 25 collars the cost would be a third of that for a Monolith. And that isn't including the 373,677 tons of cargo which would lower the ticket price even more.


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The warehouse may or may not be needed, as the arriving vessel will have ~10 days to find a buyer on-planet.  Radio still works while the Dropship is in transit.

The plan was for the destination planet to be buying from the source planet.  A Union would allow lower shipping costs per ton, and a decent merchant would be able to find something on the planet to be worth buying.  The destination planet is already paying for the Jumpship Leopard rental fees, the Union was just an additional 90k (or about 50% higher cost for 100% higher capacity).  If the only Dropship is the Leopard then obviously this will not work.  But if there is a Union (or a Mule), then using the larger Dropship to send goods is cheaper per ton.

If the destination planet is not willing to rent the Leopard for the entire trip, then the Leopard never goes to begin with (or it is a tramp freighter trying to break even)

Sure the radio works but buying more product was not in the budget. Flooding the market also reduces the sale price of the product and makes it more difficult to sell. Will 10 days be enough time to set up an advertising campaign and sell the product before you land? If not, you're getting a warehouse.

Actually, ordering the Union adds to the cost since the Leopard was already hired. Now you've hired 2 ships, one of which is empty. That isn't reducing costs. That's increasing them.

It isn't finding product on a planet to buy. It's finding product that will sell. Which could be difficult depending on the planet. Think about all the trucks, trains, and ship coming in and out of a major port. Then compare it to a tiny fishing marina. Which is going to have more cargo waiting to be shipped? Which would a container ship go to?

Planet A did rent the Leopard for the entire trip. Only you've gone and bought more cargo than was ordered, or could be carried, and then ordered a second dropship to carry it. Which is a second FTL fee to get both dropships back to Planet A. That's on top of paying to get the Union to Planet B. Plus all the time waiting for ships to come and go. You're not lowering costs by making it more expensive.

Now if you'd started with a Union to go pick up 450 tons of cargo, and then piggybacked another 450 tons on top of that, you'd be shipping your cargo for free as the first 450 paid for the entire trip.

And sure the Leopard could be rented out, if the captain has that discretion. If he needs permission, will he be able to contact the owner or his currant client? Not every planet has an HPG. Which is an added expense. Would there even be anyone to rent it too? Not every planet is a major port with ships constantly coming and going.



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Life Support material is the cargo.  The equipment to turn that life support material into something that can support life is part of the tonnage for the Quarters, but each Quarter can only convert that into enough to support one person.  Otherwise you are looking at 1 ton/5 man-days (often by dumping the excess CO2 into space).  A single Steerage Quarter is like a Gauss Rifle, where it doesn't matter how many tons (or Life Support material) of ammo you may have, only one shot can be fired from the Gauss Rifle per turn (and a Quarter can only support one person per day at the 1/200 rate).

Nope. What you're thinking is multiple Gauss Rifles (passengers) sharing or not a single ammo bay (life support). If there's only 1 shot then it obviously can't be shared. Two or more shots though can be depending on the number of shots and the number of Rifles. 1 ton of ammo can support 8 Gauss Rifles. If you've got 9 Rifles though one of them isn't firing.  In this case, Life Support is ammo. It's completely legal to have 200 Steerage Quarters supplied by 1 ton of cargo, per day. 200 man days per ton. It's not 1 ton per quarters.

Try thinking of life support like LRMs. 1 ton of ammo has the same number of missiles but the number of missiles fired depends on the size of the launcher. Cargo is a LRM-20. Quarters are a LRM-5. Bays are in between. Remember the old fluff about the Altas's LRM-20? It was basically, rapid firing 20 missiles out of an LRM-5. That'd be hot bunking quarters. 


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Bays are for short-term trips, while Quarters are used for long-term trips.  Warships and Jumpships are primarily long-trip vessels, so Quarters make more sense.  There might have been short-term Warships, Jumpships, and Dropships during the Star League, but that would have relied upon plentiful resupply locations.

The point is that you can't legally use a Bay for Quarters. It doesn't matter how close resupply is. You can't legally do it even though it does make sense. Why pay 150 tons for 30 Steerage Quarters when you can pay 5 tons? It's just hanging out in orbit or making small hops, or shot dives for a sub. Resupply is readily available. So why not?
 
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And at those over-use rates, you are paying 1 ton for every 5 man-days of life support needed beyond what each Quarter can provide.  So if you only have 20 Steerage Quarters and have to support 30 people, you will be using 2.1 tons of Life Support per day (20*1/200 + 10*1/5).  If you had refit part of the cargo bay into a single Foot Infantry Bay (5 tons, with capacity of up to 30 people), then you would be using .6 tons of Life Support per day (20*1/200 + 10*1/20).
The break-even point for hauling people in cargo bays vs in Foot Infantry Bays is less than 2 days:
5 tons for 20 people + 2 tons of Life support (1 ton/20 man-days * 20 people * 2 days) = 7 tons
0 tons for people in a Cargo Bay + 8 tons of Life Support (1 ton/5 man-days * 20 people * 2 days) = 8 tons

Nope. 200 man days per ton for quarters. You're also forgetting the weight of the people in the cargo bay. 20 people is 2 tons. So that'd be 10 tons for 20 people a cargo bay.



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ASF life support is the canned life support in Bays.  The ASF does not have a full recycling system.  Quarters have a full recycling system, but at normal loads it can only support 1 person per Quarter.  If you want to put more people than Quarters or Bays can handle, the life support will only provide 5 man-days per ton for the excess people because most of the waste is being dumped overboard.  As an example, look how much mass is needed in SCUBA tanks to keep one person alive for one day, and compare that with the mass of plants needed to keep one person alive for one day.

Where does it say that? It's 5 days per 20 people in cargo but it doesn't say that for quarters. You also missed the point where life support goes down with the rate of consumption. 2 people,  consume life support twice as fast.


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The comment was about more than one unit using the bay.  I was trying to show that each Foot Infantry unit would have its own Foot Infantry Bay.  They may form up in the Mechanized bay after the vehicles have left in order to use the elbow room, but they do not live in the Mechanized Infantry Bay.

That isn't what the book said at all. It talked about Troops using quarters and then assembling in a bay. If they were all in bays why give them quarters?  And why would Foot Infantry assemble in a mechanized infantry bay? Everything is spread out more and they'd be working around the equipment used by the Mechanized Infantry.

idea weenie

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Re: How common is interstellar travel?
« Reply #73 on: 13 May 2022, 23:52:09 »
The first quote throws 1 person per room out the airlock. In fact it calls into question the crew must be in quarters rule, when an Infantry Bay does the same job.

The second quote was about overloading. The bunk still being hot when the next person gets in is just a part of that. The bunk isn't the only thing being shared. Everything is, including life support. It isn't like they have to hold their breath for the next 16 hours until it's their turn in the bunk again.

Yes, quality. That means when someone flatulates next door, you won't smell it. It means water will be pure, not some weird color with a funky smell. It means that the head won't smell like a port-a-potty after a major sporting event in 100+ degree weather. It means hot water is hot and cold water is cold and showers last longer than 3 minuets. You an also flush and not get a scream from someone in the shower.

Quarters have their mass as extensions of the ship's life support system.  The Tech Manual had the limit per Quarter as 1 person.  You might shove extra people into a Quarter, but those extra people will be consuming life support via Cargo bay rates (1 ton per 5 man-days).

Moving the bar again. You can't charge a docking collar fee when there's no docking collar. If it's just an FTL fee, and FTL is so expensive, why are there jumpships with no docking collars?

It is a fee to travel via the Jumpship.  If you are not traveling via the Jumpship, the fee is not paid.  If you travel via Jumpship, someone will pay a fee of some kind.  If there is a Docking Collar that you are using, you will pay for the Collar fee.  If it is a passenger room (either via Passenger Bay @ .25 tons per person or Steerage Quarters at 5 tons per person) on board the Jumpship, then you will pay for the tonnage used.

Potential uses for a non-Docking Collar Jumpship would be cheap pony express data transmission to keep an empire in contact without HPGs.  The Star League could have used these, as the Star League was founded in 2570 and the first HPG message was 2630.  However once a Jumpship has at least 1000 tons of cargo space available, it is better served putting in a Dropship Collar and carrying a Dropship, than carrying cargo itself.

Nope. Remember, hot bunking isn't just sharing a bunk but the environment. That's air and water.

How many times have I said that Rules and Universe are not always the same? The Rules say you can't do a lot of things. There's many examples that say otherwise.

The rules take precedence, otherwise you can have someone claiming that a single Steerage Quarter can support several dozen (or more) people.

Where are these prices? I'm only finding the price for military cargos.

Mercenary's Handbook 3055 p107 had the standard price as as 50,000 C-Bills
Field Manual: Mercenaries p155, had the fee at 50,000 C-Bills per Dropship per Jump

Is that military cargo price from Campaign Operations, corrected 3rd printing, page 43, where it said 100,000 C-Bills for military trips via Jumpship?

What is your estimate for the price for a civilian Jumpship Collar usage.  Feel free to incorporate maintenance costs from Campaign Operations to determine monthly costs for a Jumpship, and dividing that value up among 4 jumps per month, per Collar.

So you're basing the price on numbers from an unofficial product? And then you did you're own math? Where's it say that it costs 50,000 to book passage on a jumpship? What book? I'm not finding it. I'm finding the price to ship military cargo but not civilian.

Fair enough, here are the costs from Strategic Operations, 4th edition, page 146:
Monolith total costs:
430 ktons, 70 tons fuel, 150 tons armor, 2x100ton Grav decks, 5 Escape Pods, 146 Standard Heat Sinks, 9 Collars, 6 small craft bays:
Controls Cost: 4.5M+.2M+.14M+.18M+.1M = 5.12M
Mnvr/St-Keep Cost: .43M+5.16M+.001M = 5.591M
KF Cost: 60M+75M*9 + 25M+5M*9 + 50M + .05M*8 + .05k*88 + .5M+.2M*9 = 862.1M
KF Drive Support Systems: 430M
Add'l Ship Systems: .025M + 9*.100M + .0002M*70 = .939M
Armor: .01M*150 = 1.5M
Heat Sinks: .002M*146 = .292M
Escape Pods: .025M
Grav Decks @ 105m * 2: 20M
Subtotal: 1325.567M
Multiplier: x1.25
Total: 1,656.95875M


Potemkin Compact K-F core and Warship Support Systems cost (nothing else):
Drive Coil: 60M + 75M*25 = 1,935M
Initiator: 25M + 5M*25 = 150M
Controller: 50M
Charging System: .5M + .2M*25 = 5.5M
KF Drive Subtotal: 2,140.5 M
Compact Core: Multiply above by 5 -> 10,702.5M
Warship Support systems: 20M*(50+ 1.5M/10,000) = 4,000M
Warship Cost multiplier: x2
Final cost just for the KF core and Warship systems: (10702.5+4,000)*2 = 29,405M
This Final cost does not count Controls, Engine costs, Additional Ship systems, Armor, the single Grav Deck, or any onboard weapons.

So the Monolith is not 1.67B, it is 1.66B.  Similarly, the Potemkin costs at least 29.4B, instead of the 30B I have been using.

Even if MML was 100% correct, and official, the Potemkin has more than 3 times the cargo capacity of the Monolith. That isn't included in the math when the math only looks at the number of collars. Also, while the price could be 18* as expensive if only one dropship collar was used, with 25 collars the cost would be a third of that for a Monolith. And that isn't including the 373,677 tons of cargo which would lower the ticket price even more.

Do you think that a Potemkin with 25 collars needing to be filled will have an easier time than three Monoliths only needing 9 collars each to be filled?  The Potemkin will have to wait until all 25 are filled, while the Monoliths can fill 9 at a time and pop to the destination system.  (Since the Potemkin was being filled, that says that all 25 Dropships were going to the same system.)

As to the cargo, the Potemkin still has to load/offload the cargo.  It can either use Dropships in the source and destination systems to perform the cargo transfers (vs the Monoliths just transporting the Dropships), or the Potemkin has to travel from the Jump point to the destination planet (taking on average 10 days), performing cargo changeover in orbit (instead of multiple Dropships landing), then spending ~7 days to head back to a Jump point to go to the next system.  That is 17 days for the Potemkin to make a round trip, while the Monolith only needs on average 7 days to recharge and go to its next destination.  Even a best-case scenario for the Potemkin is unloading to a space station at the Zenith or Nadir point

Sure the radio works but buying more product was not in the budget. Flooding the market also reduces the sale price of the product and makes it more difficult to sell. Will 10 days be enough time to set up an advertising campaign and sell the product before you land? If not, you're getting a warehouse.

Actually, ordering the Union adds to the cost since the Leopard was already hired. Now you've hired 2 ships, one of which is empty. That isn't reducing costs. That's increasing them.

It isn't finding product on a planet to buy. It's finding product that will sell. Which could be difficult depending on the planet. Think about all the trucks, trains, and ship coming in and out of a major port. Then compare it to a tiny fishing marina. Which is going to have more cargo waiting to be shipped? Which would a container ship go to?

Planet A did rent the Leopard for the entire trip. Only you've gone and bought more cargo than was ordered, or could be carried, and then ordered a second dropship to carry it. Which is a second FTL fee to get both dropships back to Planet A. That's on top of paying to get the Union to Planet B. Plus all the time waiting for ships to come and go. You're not lowering costs by making it more expensive.

Now if you'd started with a Union to go pick up 450 tons of cargo, and then piggybacked another 450 tons on top of that, you'd be shipping your cargo for free as the first 450 paid for the entire trip.

And sure the Leopard could be rented out, if the captain has that discretion. If he needs permission, will he be able to contact the owner or his currant client? Not every planet has an HPG. Which is an added expense. Would there even be anyone to rent it too? Not every planet is a major port with ships constantly coming and going.

The Leopard was ordered for 900 tons of cargo, as the person hiring the Leopard would have done their best to fill the Leopard with cargo.  The person on the other planet replaced the Leopard with a Union (and instead leased the Leopard for on-planet usage).  The cargo Union provided an extra 900 tons capacity.  As to finding a product to sell, that is what spending points in Intelligence, Merchant, Negotiation, Contacts, and similar skills is for.  The key is that the Union provides twice as much cargo capacity while the Jumpship fee remains the same.  In addition, the Jumpship fee was already paid for as part of the first 900 tons of cargo being delivered.  The extra 900 tons being delivered by the Union will have a lower shipping cost, meaning the seller can cut costs compared to the material being delivered via the Leopard.

Nope. What you're thinking is multiple Gauss Rifles (passengers) sharing or not a single ammo bay (life support). If there's only 1 shot then it obviously can't be shared. Two or more shots though can be depending on the number of shots and the number of Rifles. 1 ton of ammo can support 8 Gauss Rifles. If you've got 9 Rifles though one of them isn't firing.  In this case, Life Support is ammo. It's completely legal to have 200 Steerage Quarters supplied by 1 ton of cargo, per day. 200 man days per ton. It's not 1 ton per quarters.

Try thinking of life support like LRMs. 1 ton of ammo has the same number of missiles but the number of missiles fired depends on the size of the launcher. Cargo is a LRM-20. Quarters are a LRM-5. Bays are in between. Remember the old fluff about the Altas's LRM-20? It was basically, rapid firing 20 missiles out of an LRM-5. That'd be hot bunking quarters. 

Your previous posts sounds like you have been arguing that 1 Steerage Quarters could support 200 people using 1 ton of Life support per day.  That is not possible.

Steerage Quarters are not canned air and supply.  Steerage Quarters are recycling setups that can only produce 1 person's worth of life support per day, with each Steerage Quarter only needing 5 kg per day to do so. 

The point is that you can't legally use a Bay for Quarters. It doesn't matter how close resupply is. You can't legally do it even though it does make sense. Why pay 150 tons for 30 Steerage Quarters when you can pay 5 tons? It's just hanging out in orbit or making small hops, or shot dives for a sub. Resupply is readily available. So why not?
 
Nope. 200 man days per ton for quarters. You're also forgetting the weight of the people in the cargo bay. 20 people is 2 tons. So that'd be 10 tons for 20 people a cargo bay.

150 tons for 30 Steerage Quarters is best when you expect a long trip (over 105 days based on prior math).  If you want a short trip, you want Bays.

So instead of eight tons needed to support 20 people in a Cargo Bay for 2 days, it is 10 tons?  Sounds like it is still less than 2 days for Infantry Bays to be better than Cargo bays.

200 man-days per ton only if there is sufficient Quarters to make use of that Life Support.  If you only have ten Steerage Quarters and want to keep 11 people on board, then you will be consuming .25 tons of life support per day (10 people/(200 man-days/ton) + 1 person /(5 man-days/ton)).

Where does it say that? It's 5 days per 20 people in cargo but it doesn't say that for quarters. You also missed the point where life support goes down with the rate of consumption. 2 people,  consume life support twice as fast.

Campaign Operations, p222, bottom of left column and top of right column:
"When transported in aerospace units or submarines, infantry and combat unit crews must be supplied with separate quarters (long term) or infantry bays (for short missions). If not, use of various “consumables” (primarily air and water) is extremely high from the vessel’s life support systems, which must draw upon emergency reserves and operate in an “open” cycle because the recycling systems are not meant to handle personnel camping in the cargo bay. This consumption is 1 ton of food, air, water and so on per day per 5 people"

Notice the emphasized part about "separate quarters".  Also note page 36, for Hannah's example of fitting enough capacity to haul people:
"Noting the Union has a long history of modifications, Hannah’s group is amiable to converting two ’Mech bays to 40 steerage-class quarters and 100 tons of cargo."

Hannah needed 1 Steerage Quarter per person, not 1 Steerage Quarter supporting all 40 people.

That isn't what the book said at all. It talked about Troops using quarters and then assembling in a bay. If they were all in bays why give them quarters?  And why would Foot Infantry assemble in a mechanized infantry bay? Everything is spread out more and they'd be working around the equipment used by the Mechanized Infantry.

Quarters can have multiple definitions unfortunately.  Foot infantry store their gear in their Foot Infantry Quarters, and get dressed there.  They then form up in the previously vacated Mechanized Bay so the entire unit can be seen.  If the Mechanized Infantry bay is not available, the cafeteria or other semi-open area is used.

Kovax

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Re: How common is interstellar travel?
« Reply #74 on: 19 May 2022, 14:59:35 »
Between the moderately high cost, long travel times, and limited availability of Jumpships, it's pretty obvious that the vast majority of people in the Inner Sphere never leave their home planet.  While it's not uncommon to see middle-class people traveling, for most of them who do so, it's still a "once in a lifetime" experience.

While you can pack 30 people into an infantry bay, how many people are going to willingly PAY to spend 2-3 weeks (each way) of their vacations pent up in a small bunk room with 29 other people, most of them total strangers?  Consider that you're sharing a shower, one or two bathroom stalls, and a few other amenities, and that the air quality and food are going to be rather marginal at times.  You get to stretch and exercise a couple of times per day, otherwise you're either sitting or sleeping the whole time.  A military grunt is getting paid to suffer through it, you're paying to do it.

One possible compromise would be to mix a bay and several steerage quarters, make the steerage quarters double-occupancy, and reduce the number of people sharing the bay by the amount of the double-occupancy rooms.  For instance, one bay (with only 20 passengers instead of 30) and 10 quarters (with 20 passengers instead of 10).  The total number of passengers relying on the life support systems is the same as with 30 in a bay and 10 in quarters (40 total), but the accommodations for those in the bay are substantially better than usual on account of the extra room and 1/3 less people sharing the limited facilities.  The quarters will most likely be shared by family members who have less of an issue with being stuck in close proximity to one other person for several weeks, while still having better amenities than those in the bay.

Any further passengers you add without increasing the number of bays or rooms will need to live off of canned air and disposable waste scrubbers, chewing up supplies at a much increased rate, because the life support systems won't handle the extra load for more than a short hop, not the 5-20 days to or from a jump point.  Worse, it will degrade the quality of air, water, and everything else for the entire crew and passenger roster.

idea weenie

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Re: How common is interstellar travel?
« Reply #75 on: 25 May 2022, 01:16:40 »
Between the moderately high cost, long travel times, and limited availability of Jumpships, it's pretty obvious that the vast majority of people in the Inner Sphere never leave their home planet.  While it's not uncommon to see middle-class people traveling, for most of them who do so, it's still a "once in a lifetime" experience.

While you can pack 30 people into an infantry bay, how many people are going to willingly PAY to spend 2-3 weeks (each way) of their vacations pent up in a small bunk room with 29 other people, most of them total strangers?  Consider that you're sharing a shower, one or two bathroom stalls, and a few other amenities, and that the air quality and food are going to be rather marginal at times.  You get to stretch and exercise a couple of times per day, otherwise you're either sitting or sleeping the whole time.  A military grunt is getting paid to suffer through it, you're paying to do it.

One possible compromise would be to mix a bay and several steerage quarters, make the steerage quarters double-occupancy, and reduce the number of people sharing the bay by the amount of the double-occupancy rooms.  For instance, one bay (with only 20 passengers instead of 30) and 10 quarters (with 20 passengers instead of 10).  The total number of passengers relying on the life support systems is the same as with 30 in a bay and 10 in quarters (40 total), but the accommodations for those in the bay are substantially better than usual on account of the extra room and 1/3 less people sharing the limited facilities.  The quarters will most likely be shared by family members who have less of an issue with being stuck in close proximity to one other person for several weeks, while still having better amenities than those in the bay.

Any further passengers you add without increasing the number of bays or rooms will need to live off of canned air and disposable waste scrubbers, chewing up supplies at a much increased rate, because the life support systems won't handle the extra load for more than a short hop, not the 5-20 days to or from a jump point.  Worse, it will degrade the quality of air, water, and everything else for the entire crew and passenger roster.

The 30-person per 5-ton bay is squeezing people in, there would likely be other options for civilian passengers (20 per 5-ton bay, 10 per 5-ton bay, aso)

When squeezing people into any living space, the life support needs still have to be calculated based on what the equipment can support:

Add up the following:
Start: Lesser of (people being carried or total capacity of all Quarters): 5 kg/day per person
If any people left over after the above: Lesser of (remaining people being carried or total capacity of all bays): 50 kg/person/day
If any people left over after the above: 200 kg/person/day

So using your example:
one bay (with only 20 passengers instead of 30) and 10 quarters (with 20 passengers instead of 10)
40 people:
10 being supported by Quarters life support: 50 kg/day
30 being supported by Bay Life Support: 1500 kg/day
Total Consumption: 1550 kg of Life Support per day.

If another person wanted to come along and there was no more Bay life Support capacity, that single extra person would need 200 kg per day of life support, raising the daily consumption to 1750 kg/day.

This might make it a good idea for every Dropship and Jumpship to have a single 5-ton Foot Infantry Bay to deal with a few extra passengers, as the bay provides life support capacity for up to 30 people.

idea weenie

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Re: How common is interstellar travel?
« Reply #76 on: 10 September 2022, 16:23:28 »
The question asked in the Strategic Operations forum about how many people per Quarters has been answered:

It is 1 person per type of quarter.