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Author Topic: How do planetary militias work?  (Read 4250 times)

Hellraiser

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Re: How do planetary militias work?
« Reply #30 on: 24 September 2022, 13:50:36 »
I don't know what the IO tables look like specifically, but, I just made up this little 2D6 chart.

It seems like it might cover a pretty big selection of worlds given the "Roll Again" possibilities.


2   -   Roll 3* + 1 Dropship (Under 5KT)
3   -   Roll 2* + 1 Mixed Fighter Wing
4   -   Double "State Minimum" +1 Armor Regiment
5   -   "State" Minimum   +1 Aerospace Squadron
6   -   "State" Minimum   +1 Armor Battalion
7   -   "State" Minimum
8   -   "State" Minimum   +1 Infantry Regiment (60/30/10)#
9   -   "State" Minimum   +1 Mech Lance
10   -   Triple "State Minimum" + 1 Mixed Fighter Wing
11   -   Roll 2* + 1 Mech Company
12   -   Roll 3* + 1 Mech Battalion

Gives results of
1/6 = Minimum
1/2 = Minimum + Special
1/3 = Brigade++

# = 60% Foot, 30% Motor, 10% "Special"  (Jump, Mechanized, Field Guns/Artillery, Marines, Paratroops, Engineers)
« Last Edit: 24 September 2022, 20:54:23 by Hellraiser »
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Daryk

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Re: How do planetary militias work?
« Reply #31 on: 24 September 2022, 13:54:15 »
I'm thinking that probably belongs in the Fan Rules section...  8)

Caesar Steiner for Archon

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Re: How do planetary militias work?
« Reply #32 on: 24 September 2022, 20:16:48 »
However the story wants them to.


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Hellraiser

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Re: How do planetary militias work?
« Reply #33 on: 24 September 2022, 20:56:30 »
I'm thinking that probably belongs in the Fan Rules section...  8)
Ehh, I wasn't really suggesting any sort of rule, just an example of sorts to random something up.

That said I hid it w/ spoiler tags & TPTB can delete it if they feel its actually a rule.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

five_corparty

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Re: How do planetary militias work?
« Reply #34 on: 24 September 2022, 21:58:39 »
Interestingly enough, even the Clans have militia formations, per Warriors of Kerensky, under the command of the Loremaster.  Presumably these are a dumping ground for freebirth warriors, dezgra trueborns, and those who have failed enough Trials of Position to reach the bottom of the touman, and their mandate is to guard enclaves that lack Front Line or Second Line garrisons against dark caste raids.  We haven't seen much of this force, leading me to suspect it's largely a Kerensky Cluster thing, and wasn't replicated in the Inner Sphere to any great degree.

Can you drop the reference? not because I doubt you, in fact, it's the reverse: I may have to rewrite some scenes because of you!  :flame: ;D
« Last Edit: 24 September 2022, 22:01:31 by five_corparty »

Hellraiser

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Re: How do planetary militias work?
« Reply #35 on: 24 September 2022, 22:11:04 »
There is also a blurb about each Galaxy Commander being able to call on a small amount of support troops beyond what is in the FMs.

I would assume the bare minimum for this would be a Mixed Trinary of 2 Foot Infantry Stars & a Star of Light Vees.

Basically a Battalion of Infantry & Light IFV Company is pretty basic base/rear guard security.

I think that is from the FMs but I can't be more precise than that.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Mendrugo

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Re: How do planetary militias work?
« Reply #36 on: 24 September 2022, 22:26:51 »
Can you drop the reference? not because I doubt you, in fact, it's the reverse: I may have to rewrite some scenes because of you!  :flame: ;D

Warriors of Kerensky, p. 62, under "Law and Order"

Quote
Law and Order

A little-known sub-caste of the warriors, the Clan paramilitary police are comprised almost exclusively of freeborn troops and test-downs.  Though poorly regarded by mainstream warriors, freeborn and trueborn alike, the police units maintain law and order throughout Clan space.  Essentially a militia, their primary duty is to patrol cities, though they also undertake compound security duty.  Small detachments serve as a more traditional police force, investigating crimes, but such duty is not highly regarded, and performance is poor compared to their Inner Sphere counterparts.  Rather than solving crimes, their primary roles is to discourage them by promising extreme punishment to those caught and convicted.  Clan police therefore tend toward brutal and authoritarian behavior, often taking out their anger on the very people they are meant to protect.

Each Clan also possesses planetary militia forces.  These units are the proverbial bottom of the barrel, consisting of solahma, less-talented freeborn and failed trueborn troops poorly equipped with conventional vehicles and weapons.  No Clan has ever called upon such standing militia forces for real battle.  Instead, these units are assigned the thankless task of controlling the lower castes.  Assignment to a planetary militia is considered a dishonor.

The Clan’s Loremaster also holds the title of Provost Marshall, granting them command of the Clan’s police forces.
"We have made of New Avalon a towering funeral pyre and wiped the Davion scourge from the universe.  Tikonov, Chesterton and Andurien are ours once more, and the cheers of the Capellan people nearly drown out the gnashing of our foes' teeth as they throw down their weapons in despair.  Now I am made First Lord of the Star League, and all shall bow down to me and pay homa...oooooo! Shiny thing!" - Maximillian Liao, "My Triumph", audio dictation, 3030.  Unpublished.

five_corparty

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Re: How do planetary militias work?
« Reply #37 on: 25 September 2022, 12:30:25 »
Warriors of Kerensky, p. 62, under "Law and Order"

ahhh... ok.  I'm familiar with the L&E stuff because of a couple of stories where I incorporated them, but I missed the militia part.

that SAID, since they don't get involved in battles, my scenes are safe. :-)  thanks!

Colt Ward

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Re: How do planetary militias work?
« Reply #38 on: 26 September 2022, 10:18:17 »
ahhh... ok.  I'm familiar with the L&E stuff because of a couple of stories where I incorporated them, but I missed the militia part.

that SAID, since they don't get involved in battles, my scenes are safe. :-)  thanks!

Except they have . . . like I said, that is what the Ice Hellions called their 'Flurry' units.  They toss them out as speedbumps in large trials when they need to adjust to an attacker.  They are also probably the ones who deal with any initial dark caste attacks as they would be the gate guard, roving patrols, and other mundane jobs covering low profile objectives.
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Alan Grant

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Re: How do planetary militias work?
« Reply #39 on: 26 September 2022, 13:31:27 »
FM: CC describes the Flurries as a "new type of unit". It also says the Hellion Khans reassured their fellow Khans that these units will never appear alongside front-line 'mechs or Elementals. "They exist to serve the Clan one last time and none of their members are expected to survive for long." Furthermore they were created because the Clan had overstretched their garrison forces with their Hellions Furry campaign.

So that sounds like solahma, or garrison unit. Rather than a militia unit designed to police the lower caste. They were built to be thrown against the touman fighting warriors of other Clans, to delay the enemy until proper touman units could arrive.

In either case. The fact that Khans needed to explain what they were to their fellow Khans meant this this atypical. The other Clans Flurry were giving the Hellions the "that's UnClan-Like" stink eye. Forcing the Hellions to explain themselves.

Truthfully I think if you went by facts instead of perception, the Ice Hellions did absolutely create some new vehicle-centric garrison units.

But 1. Vehicles... so eww how gross.
But 2. "That's so... UnClan-Like!"

So they had to say "Create new vehicle-centric garrison Clusters? Neg! Neg! Umm.. umm... Do not look too deep into this! They will all be dead soon anyway!"

But really, that's what they did. They used every verbal trick in the book to not call a spade a spade. Not because of their composition, but because of their mission statement. They weren't police/militia policing the lower castes, they were intended to be thrown into the teeth of another Clan's attack.

At least the Adders were honest about it. They had infantry and vehicle solahma units whose primary job was to police the lower castes.

FM: CC, page 119 in the Star Adder section says the Adders Provisional Clusters have 2-3 Clusters of infantry and vehicle clusters attached to them. "Conventional infantry troops play an important role, one or two infantry trinaries serve as each major city's police force."
« Last Edit: 26 September 2022, 13:51:04 by Alan Grant »

Hellraiser

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Re: How do planetary militias work?
« Reply #40 on: 26 September 2022, 13:56:08 »
FM: CC describes the Flurries as a "new type of unit". It also says the Hellion Khans reassured their fellow Khans that these units will never appear alongside front-line 'mechs or Elementals. "They exist to serve the Clan one last time and none of their members are expected to survive for long." Furthermore they were created because the Clan had overstretched their garrison forces with their Hellions Furry campaign.

So that sounds like solahma, or garrison unit. Rather than a militia unit designed to police the lower caste. They were built to be thrown against the touman fighting warriors of other Clans, to delay the enemy until proper touman units could arrive.
I think its from this line on Sarna, copied from FM:CC that is the point Colt was making.

Quote
In order to raise the warriors required to form Flurry Clusters, Khan Tyler offered commissions to all Freeborns and Trueborns who had initially failed their Trial of Position. Most Trueborns declined, seeing such a position as more dishonorable than a lower-caste assignment

It looks like they went out among their failed warriors to recruit crewmen for these vehicles.
Not quite the same as "promoting" from your "militia" though.
It said assignment to Flurry units were regarded as lower than Solhama or Militia which is saying something.

That they got Vehicles however is also saying something.
They were able to scrounge up full clusters of Hovers/Vtols/fast Armor to make half a dozen of these clusters quickly.
That alone gives a hint into how many are laying around at garrisons never doing much as even old mechs are "better" that new clan tech tanks in their mind.

3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Colt Ward

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Re: How do planetary militias work?
« Reply #41 on: 26 September 2022, 14:36:47 »
Further, the cited text has a distinction between the paramilitary police and the Loremaster's militia- part of why they say ALSO . . . they are not paramilitary police.  The 'Clan militia' as of WoK had never been put into action against another Clan's touman (eh, Phelan has some fact-check problems from that book anyway . . . ) which means they have effectively only been used to police the lower castes (like strike busting that Malvina did in the OZ as a Star Colonel) instead of the actual purpose.

We also do not know the Hellions ever had the militia, WoK is generalities while each Clan has some exceptions to what is presented for the whole.  So for the Hellions they could have still been considered militia by other Clans but a whole new unit for the Hellions.  Like the militias, IIRC, none of the Flurries have ever shown up listed in a single FM.
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five_corparty

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Re: How do planetary militias work?
« Reply #42 on: 26 September 2022, 16:26:32 »
The descriptions remind me of a force not really here in the US, but in the Republic of Korea: their Riot Police.

The ROK Army is MASSIVE and well equipped; and on the small side, they have their law-enforcement arm, the Korean Street cops that pull you over for speeding, DUI, etc.

In between, though, are the buses of riot police that deploy to combat protestors.  It's national service- when a man is drafted, they can serve in either the military, the riot police, or the national park service (which is less than 1% of the total, so very few get those positions)
The riot police have buses, shields, APCs, etc., and they handle what neither the Army nor the LE has the manpower nor the responsibility to handle.

To ME, that's where MOST of these militias sound like they fall: between cops (the aformentioned washouts and such described in WoK) and the actual touman.  Obviously, the Hellions are pulling some shenanigans, and I wouldn't put it past some of the other Clans to have VERY loose rules about "federalizing" their riot cops into solamna clusters if needed, but "officially" they sound like a third branch, unique in manning and responsibilities.

just my thoughts.

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Re: How do planetary militias work?
« Reply #43 on: 26 September 2022, 16:46:36 »
Plus, keep in mind that Warriors of Kerensky states how things were (with some major inaccuracies) circa 3060-ish.  The Great Refusal and resultant fallout (culminating in the Wars of Reaving and the mass exodus of the Inner Sphere Clans) caused a lot of "we never do X" to become "of course we do X."
"We have made of New Avalon a towering funeral pyre and wiped the Davion scourge from the universe.  Tikonov, Chesterton and Andurien are ours once more, and the cheers of the Capellan people nearly drown out the gnashing of our foes' teeth as they throw down their weapons in despair.  Now I am made First Lord of the Star League, and all shall bow down to me and pay homa...oooooo! Shiny thing!" - Maximillian Liao, "My Triumph", audio dictation, 3030.  Unpublished.

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Re: How do planetary militias work?
« Reply #44 on: 27 September 2022, 07:49:57 »
Bear in mind- and granted this might be as much exception as it is the rule given the importance of Katyusha City- the Katyusha Keshik circa the 3070s had everything from a small army of beat cops to at least a trinary of 'Mechs (if memory serves, a good percentage of which were front-line OmniMechs, albeit ones that were somewhat outdated by that time). Assuming major cities and the like on other planets have at least a third of that, it's believable that local law enforcement units could form an emergency first-response force to defend key locations until the front-liners from the nearest enclave could arrive.

During periods of low trust in the higher castes (such as the Wars of Reaving), the lower castes have also been known to deputize themselves and mob any attackers.
« Last Edit: 27 September 2022, 07:52:04 by pokefan548 »
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Prospernia

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Re: How do planetary militias work?
« Reply #45 on: 04 October 2022, 23:57:00 »
Depends on what you mean by, "Militia"; a militia is basically anyone with a gun that can defend against an invader.

If you mean a planetary defense-force, then that depends on the size, technology and importance of the world. Some worlds, have populations in the billions; even calling up 1% of the population to fight, is a large army indeed, that could out-number the invaders.

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Re: How do planetary militias work?
« Reply #46 on: 05 October 2022, 06:49:58 »
Depends on what you mean by, "Militia"; a militia is basically anyone with a gun that can defend against an invader.

If you mean a planetary defense-force, then that depends on the size, technology and importance of the world. Some worlds, have populations in the billions; even calling up 1% of the population to fight, is a large army indeed, that could out-number the invaders.

1% of the pop called up as volunteers would be good vs pirates (assuming they can get together fast enough).  Pirates are often lower armor and needing to scatter to grab loot, so infantry weapons can be a serious threat against them.  The problem is that the terrain around the dropship's landing site is cleared of any cover due to the fusion exhaust, so the 1% militia can only safely engage the pirates that are in-town robbing.

1% of the pop called up vs an actual army means the population is asking "who goes first" vs the trained opponent with quality armor and heavy-duty weaponry.


From there, the goal of the attacker should be to avoid giving the 1% of the population a reason to volunteer.  If the only change is the flag on the tax forms, not that many will care.  If the attacker is threatening to pull a Kentares II, then more will volunteer.  You also need the feudal lords to recognize the sacrifice of the 1% who volunteer.  A feudal lord who expects the population to resist and does nothing afterwards to thank them will find that their 1% will become 1% of 1%.

Colt Ward

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Re: How do planetary militias work?
« Reply #47 on: 05 October 2022, 09:27:03 »
1% of the pop called up vs an actual army means the population is asking "who goes first" vs the trained opponent with quality armor and heavy-duty weaponry.

Not really how it is . . . with proper planning, 'weekend warriors' can be as good as regulars and in some ways better- the first up-armored humvees and trucks in Iraq were in Nasty Girl units b/c the troops in those formations had other jobs, like welding.  Especially when you are talking the militia are involved on the defensive, or as I mentioned above on a border world where troops might retire from a garrison posting.  The Swiss & Israelis have quality militias as well as part of their defensive planning.

Militia qualities are variable, just like regular troop formations.  The Soviet regulars in WWII and Chinese regulars in the Korean War both executed human wave attacks in an attempt to overrun defenders- like the Capellans even if you just look at their post 4SW mentality . . . not necessarily a ringing endorsement of 'regulars.'  Militia quality will depend on the culture and political/military leadership, like the Saxon fyrds who could both crumble before the Vikings and in other battles beat them badly.
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Re: How do planetary militias work?
« Reply #48 on: 05 October 2022, 09:47:57 »
The other question is how reliable a citizens' militia can be against a raid.  If the pirates are in-and-out, then they'll be gone long before the "national guard" can even muster.  The Snord's Irregulars scenario pack showed them being engaged on Nathan by a provisional battle group - likely whatever troops arrived first at the mustering point, slapped together into a unit and sent out to find and fight the Irregulars.
"We have made of New Avalon a towering funeral pyre and wiped the Davion scourge from the universe.  Tikonov, Chesterton and Andurien are ours once more, and the cheers of the Capellan people nearly drown out the gnashing of our foes' teeth as they throw down their weapons in despair.  Now I am made First Lord of the Star League, and all shall bow down to me and pay homa...oooooo! Shiny thing!" - Maximillian Liao, "My Triumph", audio dictation, 3030.  Unpublished.

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Re: How do planetary militias work?
« Reply #49 on: 05 October 2022, 15:03:25 »
The other question is how reliable a citizens' militia can be against a raid.  If the pirates are in-and-out, then they'll be gone long before the "national guard" can even muster.  The Snord's Irregulars scenario pack showed them being engaged on Nathan by a provisional battle group - likely whatever troops arrived first at the mustering point, slapped together into a unit and sent out to find and fight the Irregulars.

which is why i talked about "full time vs part time" militia earlier. in the fiction it seems like many worlds have a full time standing militia, often equipped with mechs or vees, as well as a part time national guard type force. and it would make sense to have some degree of forces "on call" at any time. for the US national guard, that force is generally created by staggering the training periods for the volunteer forces so that there is always some group of troops in uniform and ready to fight no matter what week or month of the year it is. said force being ready to deploy to meet an immediate situation and buy some time to call up and mobilize additional forces.

in BT it seems like the more well off (or just more threatened) worlds have a standing professional army of sorts inside the militia in addition to that rotation of volunteers. either integral full time militia forces (like the Thorin militia's mech unit), the household troops of some nobleman, or some form of merc unit given a garrison contract to fill the same role. (and to be honest, we see household troops and merc garrisons more in the pre-clan material.. once the clans invade it seems like the planetary militia forces start getting full time mech and vehicle forces within the militia itself)

Colt Ward

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Re: How do planetary militias work?
« Reply #50 on: 05 October 2022, 15:25:40 »
US does not quite work that way . . . you have cadre, which are full time personnel who are usually administrative staff.  You may have portions of units on orders outside of their normal commitment . . . often this is voluntary, but people do it for promotion points, do it to go to schools (like BNOC), or for students to earn money between semesters.

However, besides that cadre in the US a state will have a 'on call' formation as a QRF.  My state rotates a company-worth of troops a month or two through that role.  They get assigned a bit more equipment that normally only gets assigned for mobilizing units, their paperwork got cycled before that rotation rather than the annual check, and transportation assets are staged for their rapid movement.

Some other historical models had three levels for militia rather than the US formal 2 levels . . . full time cadre, second tier forces, and third tier forces . . . cadre & second tier are on a promotion tack and their 'regular' rank is higher than their daily rank when they are on duty.  It is a sort of pyramid force structure . . . using US enlisted ranks your E1-E4 and maybe some specialist E5s are your third tier- basically non-leadership.  They have the least commitment and do say . . . 2 days a month and 2 weeks a year.  Second tier are your mid-level NCOs and some higher ranking NCOs . . . but unless they are in a full call up (third tier troopers) the bottom ranks are cut off.  So what in a full call up is a squad of 8-16 (depending on organizational structure) instead is a fire team of 4, the full call up squad sergeant is effectively a corporal (which is the normal rank he wears) and the squad's fire team corporals are E3s in that squad.  The team relationship is still there, and they train together they just do not have subordinates.  They would do 3 days a month (1 day before or after the third tier's 2 days) and 3 (or 4) weeks a year as part of their obligation, splitting the time before or after the third tier troops.

Except for the rank swap, the US does this informally with advance & post party . . . this is folks to volunteer to work before/after for special tasking.  Is the unit mobilizing?  These guys receive orders activating them before everyone else as they prep equipment and start doing the work needed for the incoming bodies.  Or they ship out to the staging area to get it ready for the rest of the force to follow . . . this practice is effectively the same as movement in the field where folks are picked to move to the new AoE to link up with assets in that area so the following unit integrates easier.
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Prospernia

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Re: How do planetary militias work?
« Reply #51 on: 05 October 2022, 19:16:17 »
If you're going to do an objective-raid, which basically, is what a pirate-raid is, then, conceivably, you could raid Clan homeworlds as surprise is on your side.

And if the world has had repeated objective-raids in the recent past, there's going to be protocols and a rapid-response vs. a world that has never had an objective-raid before.

A good pirate objective-raid has to be like the Spanish Inquisition.
 

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Re: How do planetary militias work?
« Reply #52 on: 05 October 2022, 19:30:29 »
Well played!  ;D

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Re: How do planetary militias work?
« Reply #53 on: 05 October 2022, 19:44:03 »
A good pirate objective-raid has to be like the Spanish Inquisition.
Clad in nice red uniforms? :)
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Re: How do planetary militias work?
« Reply #54 on: 05 October 2022, 20:03:49 »
Not really how it is . . . with proper planning, 'weekend warriors' can be as good as regulars and in some ways better- the first up-armored humvees and trucks in Iraq were in Nasty Girl units b/c the troops in those formations had other jobs, like welding.  Especially when you are talking the militia are involved on the defensive, or as I mentioned above on a border world where troops might retire from a garrison posting.  The Swiss & Israelis have quality militias as well as part of their defensive planning.

I'm trying to stay away from Rule 4, but I feel like I have to ask if those up-armored humvees and trucks were engaging other militia, or the equivalent of an Abrams.

A militia force vs a pirate force would be engaging the pirate force with a slight disadvantage in per-person combat ability (pirates would have more per-person, but not that much more).  To me a militia force vs an invasion force would be the equivalent of up-armored Bradleys, Humvees, and trucks vs Abrams.  Enough B/H/T can defeat the Abrams, but the results are going to be expensive.

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Re: How do planetary militias work?
« Reply #55 on: 05 October 2022, 20:06:25 »
ATGMs are the answer to the scenario as framed.  We don't really have those in BT, though...  ^-^

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Re: How do planetary militias work?
« Reply #56 on: 05 October 2022, 22:36:31 »
ATGMs are the answer to the scenario as framed.  We don't really have those in BT, though...  ^-^
Tandem-Charged LRMs, if they existed, might be "close" to ATGMs, in terms of effect on MBTs
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Colt Ward

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Re: How do planetary militias work?
« Reply #57 on: 06 October 2022, 00:42:52 »
I'm trying to stay away from Rule 4, but I feel like I have to ask if those up-armored humvees and trucks were engaging other militia, or the equivalent of an Abrams.

It was for convoys that were getting hit by raiders, but the point was rather that part-time troops can bring a wider variety of skills than regulars.
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Daryk

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Re: How do planetary militias work?
« Reply #58 on: 06 October 2022, 03:12:20 »
Tandem-Charged LRMs, if they existed, might be "close" to ATGMs, in terms of effect on MBTs
My point exactly!  8)

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Re: How do planetary militias work?
« Reply #59 on: 18 October 2022, 01:47:41 »
As folks said, it really depends on the plot. But if you was to look at it realistically, it would largely depend on the leadership and population of the world.

If you're the Lord/Lady in charge of a pretty well to do world, nothing huge but with a decent population, and you don't worry about the lower orders burning you but not just in effigy, then you could help raise 2 - 6 regiments of infantry, as well as locally made/purchased armoured support (think Scorpions, Pikes, LRM carriers and other fairly simple vehicles) to defend your world, in addition to a company or two of 'Mechs that are largely in private hands or are part of your guard.

Whereas LV-426 a small mining prospect with a population of 2000 might have a company of infantry at most and some jeeps with SRM launchers on the back.


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