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Author Topic: in 3152, exactly how many Warships does each Inner Sphere House have?  (Read 4612 times)

FotS Sigismund

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I know Warships are once again being actively removed from the setting since Aerospace 2 didn't sell, but how many are left in the hands of the House by 3152. From what I've seen on Sarna, there is no active counter, and the most recent mention I saw was the Palmyra disaster took out the Lucien Davion, leaving only the Michael Saille over New Avalon, and the status of the Brest and New Sytris as unconfirmed but not at New Avalon for 3145.

BrianDavion

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we can proably assume the warship over new avalon was destroyed, so the fedsuns has none, the LC has... I tink 1 left the CC 2, the FWL 1 or 2, the Dominion 3, the wolves and falcons each 5... the snow ravens 17

FotS Sigismund

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we can proably assume the warship over new avalon was destroyed, so the fedsuns has none, the LC has... I tink 1 left the CC 2, the FWL 1 or 2, the Dominion 3, the wolves and falcons each 5... the snow ravens 17
That would be the Michael Saille, whose fate remains unconfirmed, but then raises the question of what happened to the Brest and the New Sytris, both Fox Class Corvettes that survived the Jyhad, and I think I saw reference to at least one of them being active after the Fall of New Avalon in the Capellan march

Also the Wolves, Falcons and Snow Ravens aren't Inner Sphere houses really  ;)


Templar87

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That would be the Michael Saille, whose fate remains unconfirmed, but then raises the question of what happened to the Brest and the New Sytris, both Fox Class Corvettes that survived the Jyhad, and I think I saw reference to at least one of them being active after the Fall of New Avalon in the Capellan march


The FSS New Syrtis was destroyed in the Capellan invasion of her namesake world, per FM 3145 (pg. 28). The last we heard of the FSS Brest, in FR AFFS (pg. 6), is that she was stationed over Robinson, and so was presumably lost during the Kuritan invasion.
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Metallgewitter

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The Lyrans have one Mjolnir class ship left
The Suns probably have one Fox left
The Capellans have also one left (I think it was the Aleisha Kris, the Foxes destroyed the sister ship during Julian's return to the FedSuns)
The Combine has two: one Kyushu and one Inazuma class ship
The Free Worlds League has three: one Agamemnon and one Eagle class ship while the remaining Thera can't jump and is basically a poor man's space station
The Concordat might still have that one Vincent corvette orbiting somewhere though I suspect that the wear over time rendered it useless
The Wolves should have at least 4 warships left after the fall of Terra (plus whatever Falcon ships are still operating. The RAF fleet was completly destroyed though maybe the Wolves can reactivate the three mothballed RAF yardships)
The Bears have two: one Leviathan and one Carrack class ship (allgedly the Bears are constructing another Leviathan)
The Horses have 3 left: one Congress, one York and one Potemkin class
Interestingly enough there is no information regarding the Foxes warships. I assume that their Artcships could potentially pull double duty as Warships but that is only an assumption. They might need extensive refitting for that
And then we have the powerhouse of the Raven fleet: 2 Conquerer, 1 Vincent, 1 Thera, 1 Nightlord, 2 Cameron, 2 Potemkin, 2 Essex, 1 Fredasa, 2 Whirlwind, 1 Congress, 1 Aegis, 1 Sovestkii Soyuz. Keep in mind though that the majority of those ships are in mothballs and not active. Putting out all those ships would be a huge drain on manpower and maintenance facilities if the Ravens can even spare that much resources

Also this info is mostly Field manual 3145 with some Shattered Fortress / Ilclan thrown into
« Last Edit: 01 December 2022, 03:53:46 by Metallgewitter »

Church14

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Wolves have four functional warships and various states of damaged.
CWS Jerome Winston
SLS McKenna's Pride
CWS Dire Wolf
CJF Jade Tornado

They also have another six combat inoperable but should be repairable
CWS Victoria Ward
CJF Turkina's Pride
CJF Jade Aerie
CJF White Aerie
CJF Jade Talon
CJF Red Talon


Republic had six, and all were destroyed. This doesn’t include the horde of missing castrums.

Caesar Steiner for Archon

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That would be the Michael Saille, whose fate remains unconfirmed, but then raises the question of what happened to the Brest and the New Sytris, both Fox Class Corvettes that survived the Jyhad, and I think I saw reference to at least one of them being active after the Fall of New Avalon in the Capellan march

Also the Wolves, Falcons and Snow Ravens aren't Inner Sphere houses really  ;)

It wouldn't be the first Fox to just vanish into the ether.


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FotS Sigismund

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The FSS New Syrtis was destroyed in the Capellan invasion of her namesake world, per FM 3145 (pg. 28). The last we heard of the FSS Brest, in FR AFFS (pg. 6), is that she was stationed over Robinson, and so was presumably lost during the Kuritan invasion.
The Suns probably have one Fox left
It wouldn't be the first Fox to just vanish into the ether.
Fair enough

So the Brest and Michael Saille are MIA, presumed gone until stated other wise, rip FSN first to go

Cannonshop

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Fair enough

So the Brest and Michael Saille are MIA, presumed gone until stated other wise, rip FSN first to go

a major part of the problem, is that Catalyst hasn't been any better about handling the space naval thing, than FASA or Fanpro were.  They can't entirely kill it because the setting doesn't allow for entirely killing the concept, but they also can't successfully market it, so they keep trying to kill it.

On account of it doesn't sell well.

PWS were pushed hard by the Jihad era crew, the problem is, they don't perform up to spec on the tabletop, being as they're just heavily armed dropships with no strategic mobility...which is exactly the mobility you NEED to justify their existence.

At present, it can be truly said that the ilClan has a navy, and nobody else does.
"Yes, we have a few vestigal ships, but that's not a navy".

it's vestiges.  Museums...and as the Palmyra incident shows, nobody knows what to do with them or how to use them, this was outright reinforced by the mud-stomp in the Sol system in Hour of the Wolf, where again, nobody actually had a clue what to do with a Navy...beyond hauling troops to the front and bombarding surface targets.

so...that's where we're at.  Island Chains controlled by Armies, because nobody has the first clue what to do with a Navy.
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idea weenie

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a major part of the problem, is that Catalyst hasn't been any better about handling the space naval thing, than FASA or Fanpro were.  They can't entirely kill it because the setting doesn't allow for entirely killing the concept, but they also can't successfully market it, so they keep trying to kill it.

On account of it doesn't sell well.

PWS were pushed hard by the Jihad era crew, the problem is, they don't perform up to spec on the tabletop, being as they're just heavily armed dropships with no strategic mobility...which is exactly the mobility you NEED to justify their existence.

At present, it can be truly said that the ilClan has a navy, and nobody else does.
"Yes, we have a few vestigal ships, but that's not a navy".

it's vestiges.  Museums...and as the Palmyra incident shows, nobody knows what to do with them or how to use them, this was outright reinforced by the mud-stomp in the Sol system in Hour of the Wolf, where again, nobody actually had a clue what to do with a Navy...beyond hauling troops to the front and bombarding surface targets.

so...that's where we're at.  Island Chains controlled by Armies, because nobody has the first clue what to do with a Navy.

I wonder how you would go about making various Navies in the ilClan era?  Turn ilClan-era Warship combat into the 3020-era Mech scavenger times, but you are scavenging for Warship parts instead of Mech parts.  IIRC during the Clan invasion there was a comment about Comstar having to provide the main engines to the FedCom Warship program, so there is that fact that can be used as a reference to why Warships are rare.

Stone's Treaty limitations might be a good reason why there are no major Warships.

(So much more I want to add to this, but this thread isn't even in the Fan Boards, let alone Fan Rules)

Cannonshop

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Re: in 3152, exactly how many Warships does each Inner Sphere House have?
« Reply #10 on: 02 December 2022, 00:27:07 »
I wonder how you would go about making various Navies in the ilClan era?  Turn ilClan-era Warship combat into the 3020-era Mech scavenger times, but you are scavenging for Warship parts instead of Mech parts.  IIRC during the Clan invasion there was a comment about Comstar having to provide the main engines to the FedCom Warship program, so there is that fact that can be used as a reference to why Warships are rare.

Stone's Treaty limitations might be a good reason why there are no major Warships.

(So much more I want to add to this, but this thread isn't even in the Fan Boards, let alone Fan Rules)

the issue to me, is that nobody even bothered to work on MINOR warships, or even protected jumpships, which means all the roles that aren't combat but ARE navy roles, are essentially being contracted to guys in paper-thin stick-and-ball ships.

which makes happy hunting for criminals, pirates, rivals, and so on, but doesn't really work too well for jobs like 'internal lines of communication', reconaissance, treaty verification, show-the-flag-to-the-colonists, commerce escort, commerce protection, or antipiracy.

In a setting, that has pirates.

A Navy has to work even in peacetime, or it's useless to have at all-and the only way your navy can afford to be useless, is if you have a huge damn friend with a huge damn navy to take up that slack so that all you really NEED are tax enforcement boats...only that's not really true either, because interstellar nations are like island chains, not contiguous continental landmasses, so having a huge army that has to rely on dragooning civilian transports doesn't really work for the day to day-sometimes you NEED the navy to be hauling weapons for resupply, and being at the mercy of a civcon?

I don't see it working for long.  Especially not if the HPG goes down...yet here we are, nobody's got a working navy except the Clans.

This part, that situation? does not make sense to me...but it's where it is, and it's what it is.

and before anyone goes on about BT military sizes, keep in mind, you need enough National Troops to secure hundreds of worlds.  If you only go to something like a lance per planet, that's still a hell of a lot of supply, replacements and communications that have to happen DAILY.

It's also a huge number of guys, even if you're only stationing a company on minor worlds.

and yet...

nobody's building even the smaller cheaper things like Zechetinus for the majority of the Inner Sphere's nations...or even just up-armored merchant class...

SOMETHING has to move your PWS into position, and a stick-and-ball ship is an obvious, and vulnerable, target.
« Last Edit: 02 December 2022, 00:34:07 by Cannonshop »
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Metallgewitter

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Re: in 3152, exactly how many Warships does each Inner Sphere House have?
« Reply #11 on: 02 December 2022, 05:08:24 »
I wonder how you would go about making various Navies in the ilClan era?  Turn ilClan-era Warship combat into the 3020-era Mech scavenger times, but you are scavenging for Warship parts instead of Mech parts.  IIRC during the Clan invasion there was a comment about Comstar having to provide the main engines to the FedCom Warship program, so there is that fact that can be used as a reference to why Warships are rare.

Stone's Treaty limitations might be a good reason why there are no major Warships.

(So much more I want to add to this, but this thread isn't even in the Fan Boards, let alone Fan Rules)

To be fair the Jihad wrecked a lot of naval yards that were capable of constructing Warships. The Commonwealth lost it's Alarion yards, the Confederation lost Necromo, the FreeWorlds lost Selasys and Gibson, the Fedsuns lost the Kathil and Galax yards. Not sure which yards the Combine lost at the moment but they also took a beating. Also the Titan Yards over Terra were wrecked as well. Then we have the Clans: the Snow Ravens fled from the homeworlds and had to build up a derelict yard at Quatre Belle to even service their massive fleet. The Wolves were dependent on the Shark's Twycross naval yard and the same goes for the Falcons despite them having at least one yard in their OZ. And the Horses had a mobile yard but that was only able to service not build Warships. The Bears might have been able to build new ships but reconstruction of Jumpships took priority. Add to that the massive costs of rebuilding the damage and one can see why no one thought of building new Warships when even a small corvette costs as much as the annual GDP of planets. So there was the switch to PWS. And of course there was also Stone's peace policies which made building ships even more unattractive. And while the Clans have a lot of ships (if the Ravens decide to throw their lot with the Wolves) you must consider that
a) they require a lot of maintenance
b) also trained crews and last but not least
c) present  a big freaking target in space that can be downed with a well placed ram attack or even a well placed nuke.

A Warship without a proper escort of fighters and Dropships is nothing but a glass canon as shown by the destruction of the Lucian Davion and New Syrtis. and if you concnetrate those escort around a ship you waste even more resources in an era where troops and material are at a premium

And in the regard of the Foxes: FM 3145 states it guards New Avalon (the Michael Saille) But Shattered Fortress makes no mention of that Warship guarding New Avalon. Instead it only mentions "Orbital defenses" consitign of PWS and Aerospacefighters. No word about the Saille. Maybe it is guarding June or in constant movement with Julian. Or simply written out of existence

Baldur Mekorig

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Re: in 3152, exactly how many Warships does each Inner Sphere House have?
« Reply #12 on: 02 December 2022, 09:30:11 »
The Lyrans have one Mjolnir class ship left
The Suns probably have one Fox left
The Capellans have also one left (I think it was the Aleisha Kris, the Foxes destroyed the sister ship during Julian's return to the FedSuns)
The Combine has two: one Kyushu and one Inazuma class ship
The Free Worlds League has three: one Agamemnon and one Eagle class ship while the remaining Thera can't jump and is basically a poor man's space station
The Concordat might still have that one Vincent corvette orbiting somewhere though I suspect that the wear over time rendered it useless
The Wolves should have at least 4 warships left after the fall of Terra (plus whatever Falcon ships are still operating. The RAF fleet was completly destroyed though maybe the Wolves can reactivate the three mothballed RAF yardships)
The Bears have two: one Leviathan and one Carrack class ship (allgedly the Bears are constructing another Leviathan)
The Horses have 3 left: one Congress, one York and one Potemkin class
Interestingly enough there is no information regarding the Foxes warships. I assume that their Artcships could potentially pull double duty as Warships but that is only an assumption. They might need extensive refitting for that
And then we have the powerhouse of the Raven fleet: 2 Conquerer, 1 Vincent, 1 Thera, 1 Nightlord, 2 Cameron, 2 Potemkin, 2 Essex, 1 Fredasa, 2 Whirlwind, 1 Congress, 1 Aegis, 1 Sovestkii Soyuz. Keep in mind though that the majority of those ships are in mothballs and not active. Putting out all those ships would be a huge drain on manpower and maintenance facilities if the Ravens can even spare that much resources

Also this info is mostly Field manual 3145 with some Shattered Fortress / Ilclan thrown into

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GreekFire

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Re: in 3152, exactly how many Warships does each Inner Sphere House have?
« Reply #13 on: 02 December 2022, 09:56:47 »
Remember the CPS Redemption.

Destroyed above Terra.
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Angrii

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Re: in 3152, exactly how many Warships does each Inner Sphere House have?
« Reply #14 on: 02 December 2022, 10:01:07 »
From FM: 3145, Calderon Protectorate...

"The Protectorate remains unique in the Periphery as the only
state with an active WarShip, the Quixote-class destroyer CDS
Redemption."

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Re: in 3152, exactly how many Warships does each Inner Sphere House have?
« Reply #15 on: 02 December 2022, 10:22:52 »
To be fair the Jihad wrecked a lot of naval yards that were capable of constructing Warships. The Commonwealth lost it's Alarion yards, the Confederation lost Necromo, the FreeWorlds lost Selasys and Gibson, the Fedsuns lost the Kathil and Galax yards. Not sure which yards the Combine lost at the moment but they also took a beating. Also the Titan Yards over Terra were wrecked as well. Then we have the Clans: the Snow Ravens fled from the homeworlds and had to build up a derelict yard at Quatre Belle to even service their massive fleet. The Wolves were dependent on the Shark's Twycross naval yard and the same goes for the Falcons despite them having at least one yard in their OZ. And the Horses had a mobile yard but that was only able to service not build Warships. The Bears might have been able to build new ships but reconstruction of Jumpships took priority. Add to that the massive costs of rebuilding the damage and one can see why no one thought of building new Warships when even a small corvette costs as much as the annual GDP of planets. So there was the switch to PWS. And of course there was also Stone's peace policies which made building ships even more unattractive. And while the Clans have a lot of ships (if the Ravens decide to throw their lot with the Wolves) you must consider that
a) they require a lot of maintenance
b) also trained crews and last but not least
c) present  a big freaking target in space that can be downed with a well placed ram attack or even a well placed nuke.

A Warship without a proper escort of fighters and Dropships is nothing but a glass canon as shown by the destruction of the Lucian Davion and New Syrtis. and if you concnetrate those escort around a ship you waste even more resources in an era where troops and material are at a premium

And in the regard of the Foxes: FM 3145 states it guards New Avalon (the Michael Saille) But Shattered Fortress makes no mention of that Warship guarding New Avalon. Instead it only mentions "Orbital defenses" consitign of PWS and Aerospacefighters. No word about the Saille. Maybe it is guarding June or in constant movement with Julian. Or simply written out of existence

IIRC, here is the rough timeline for major events between the Jihad and Gray Monday:
3081 - WoB Cleansing ended
3110 - CapCon invades the Republic
3113 - CapCon ends its invasion
3132 - HPG Grid collapses

That is 29 years between the end of Jihad and the start of the CapCon invasion for the nations to get their economy going, build several shipyards, and semi-restart basic warship production.  The Capcon's invasion should have pushed 'FWL' and FedSuns military production higher as they share a border with an obviously expansionistic government.  Even then it is 19 years between the CapCon ending their invasion and the HPG net collapsing.

You are right that Warships are expensive, that Jumpships are needed.  But the nations had 29 years to get Jumpship yards back online, 3 years to be really motivated to build some sort of Warship, and 19 years to get production going and officer training in progress.  As issues pop up you have time to semi-redesign the weapons and armor layout so rams and nukes are less effective in killing the proto-Warships.

So the Successor States might have a few baby Warships that are no bigger than a max size Jumpship, while the Republic has several Castrums to protect their Jumpships.  The Successor States have strategically offensive units, while the Republic has strategically defensive units.  Everyone is trying to improve their Warship designs and steal their opponent's designs, so there are lots of opportunities for raids at data centers.

GreekFire

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Re: in 3152, exactly how many Warships does each Inner Sphere House have?
« Reply #16 on: 02 December 2022, 10:27:05 »
From FM: 3145, Calderon Protectorate...

"The Protectorate remains unique in the Periphery as the only
state with an active WarShip, the Quixote-class destroyer CDS
Redemption."

Yep, and that ship was then destroyed above Terra in 3151.
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Cannonshop

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Re: in 3152, exactly how many Warships does each Inner Sphere House have?
« Reply #17 on: 02 December 2022, 12:23:10 »
To be fair the Jihad wrecked a lot of naval yards that were capable of constructing Warships. The Commonwealth lost it's Alarion yards, the Confederation lost Necromo, the FreeWorlds lost Selasys and Gibson, the Fedsuns lost the Kathil and Galax yards. Not sure which yards the Combine lost at the moment but they also took a beating. Also the Titan Yards over Terra were wrecked as well. Then we have the Clans: the Snow Ravens fled from the homeworlds and had to build up a derelict yard at Quatre Belle to even service their massive fleet. The Wolves were dependent on the Shark's Twycross naval yard and the same goes for the Falcons despite them having at least one yard in their OZ. And the Horses had a mobile yard but that was only able to service not build Warships. The Bears might have been able to build new ships but reconstruction of Jumpships took priority. Add to that the massive costs of rebuilding the damage and one can see why no one thought of building new Warships when even a small corvette costs as much as the annual GDP of planets. So there was the switch to PWS. And of course there was also Stone's peace policies which made building ships even more unattractive. And while the Clans have a lot of ships (if the Ravens decide to throw their lot with the Wolves) you must consider that
a) they require a lot of maintenance
b) also trained crews and last but not least
c) present  a big freaking target in space that can be downed with a well placed ram attack or even a well placed nuke.

A Warship without a proper escort of fighters and Dropships is nothing but a glass canon as shown by the destruction of the Lucian Davion and New Syrtis. and if you concnetrate those escort around a ship you waste even more resources in an era where troops and material are at a premium

And in the regard of the Foxes: FM 3145 states it guards New Avalon (the Michael Saille) But Shattered Fortress makes no mention of that Warship guarding New Avalon. Instead it only mentions "Orbital defenses" consitign of PWS and Aerospacefighters. No word about the Saille. Maybe it is guarding June or in constant movement with Julian. Or simply written out of existence

And in all that "Economic boom" between the end of the Jihad, and gray monday, NOBODY REBUILT THEIR INFRASTRUCTURE.

is that logical to you?  The surviving factories did business selling equipment, but nobody rebuilt what is, logically KEY INFRASTRUCTURE for an INTERSTELLAR NATION.

It's like this: you live in the middle of an island archipelago, and claim most of it.

BUT YOU DON'T HAVE A NAVY.

You have a couple of relic gunboats in bad condition and a few coastal monitors with short legs.  You will be mud-stomped by anyone who has a navy-even if it's smaller than your gunboats, because that navy can attack anywhere, and your coastal gunboats are concentrated on a few locations and can't move to interfere.

Further, you have (if you're the Lyrans) ONE shipyard, and it's close to two enemy states.

How does this make sense?  Treaties are only as good as your ability to enforce them, often not even that good, they aren't security.

Maybe this is why Andrew Steiner died of 'food poisoning' after eating street food-nobody was competent in the Lyran Commonwealth!

But that doesn't explain nearly everyone else also manifesting that incompetence.
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Metallgewitter

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Re: in 3152, exactly how many Warships does each Inner Sphere House have?
« Reply #18 on: 02 December 2022, 13:26:40 »
There is just one thing you forgot: most of the houses didn't only loose their major yards they also lost the respective planets. Galax, Alarion, Gibson and Necromo are wastelands / contaminated. If you want to rebuild the yards there you also have to try to resettle said planet. That is not something you can do "out of pocket" especially as few would actually want to settle such planets. Also while I agree that yards should have been rebuild (Hello Lyran Commonwealth take notes) building Warships isn't something you can do out of thin air. You need special components like real compact KF drives, Ship grade weapons and so on. And then we get to the resource crunch: do you keep building new Jumpships to keep the economy going or do you divert precious time to start a Warship program? And what kind of ship do you want? A small corvette that might not be able to stand against a flotilla of PWS? Or perhaps something more hearty like a cruiser or even battleship? that costs even more and will take longer. So maybe the number crunching says: a Jumpship which carries a squadron of PWS is cheaper and yet as effective so we do that.

And of course the peace policy of Stone that lulled most of the Houses into sleep (except the Confederation and even they didn't build Warships just more Mechs/tanks,weapons for boots on the ground. Because boots on the ground conquer planets not a floating canon in the sky). As a flip side though is that no one actually cared to build defenses against Warships. Even the Republic didn't care to build a form of automated defenses over Terra except several battlestations.

Cannonshop

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Re: in 3152, exactly how many Warships does each Inner Sphere House have?
« Reply #19 on: 02 December 2022, 14:40:16 »
There is just one thing you forgot: most of the houses didn't only loose their major yards they also lost the respective planets. Galax, Alarion, Gibson and Necromo are wastelands / contaminated. If you want to rebuild the yards there you also have to try to resettle said planet. That is not something you can do "out of pocket" especially as few would actually want to settle such planets. Also while I agree that yards should have been rebuild (Hello Lyran Commonwealth take notes) building Warships isn't something you can do out of thin air. You need special components like real compact KF drives, Ship grade weapons and so on. And then we get to the resource crunch: do you keep building new Jumpships to keep the economy going or do you divert precious time to start a Warship program? And what kind of ship do you want? A small corvette that might not be able to stand against a flotilla of PWS? Or perhaps something more hearty like a cruiser or even battleship? that costs even more and will take longer. So maybe the number crunching says: a Jumpship which carries a squadron of PWS is cheaper and yet as effective so we do that.

And of course the peace policy of Stone that lulled most of the Houses into sleep (except the Confederation and even they didn't build Warships just more Mechs/tanks,weapons for boots on the ground. Because boots on the ground conquer planets not a floating canon in the sky). As a flip side though is that no one actually cared to build defenses against Warships. Even the Republic didn't care to build a form of automated defenses over Terra except several battlestations.

"Peace Policy" doesn't secure the delivery of mail, raw materials, finished goods or the movement of critical personnel.  Navies do that, and nobody bothered to rebuild theirs.

It's not just "War" that Navies do, it's literally securing the lifeblood of interstellar nations even in peacetime.  It's like saying "We don't need the Coast Guard because we're not at war" while forgetting key roles like commerce protection and enforcement, search and rescue, charting maintenance for navigation, emergency response (ships have emergencies, even well maintained ones), antipiracy (because Pirates are thing, yo), contraband/smuggling interdiction...And secure internal communication (both of words and of actual goods that you don't want getting loose).

Most of these jobs can't be done by dropships, though dropships can be used as part of a suite of tools to make the jobs easier.  There's zero investment evident in any of this.

"Oh! we lost our shipyard and the planet!!" means "Oh shit, we need to build two more so we're able to recover from losing that!! (*and so we don't have to deal with it being catastrophic the next time it happens.)"

It does NOT mean "Well, I guess we'll never need it, so let's dump all the funding into selling more tanks (at a loss) to the Republic of the Sphere and pretending everything is fine."

Your battlemechs at the Factory  world are absolutely USELESS if you can't reliably get them to the border where they're useful.  Navies are how your civilian shipping can DO THAT.

After all, you can't march the assault 'mechs from Hesperus II to the Falcon border on foot.  There's that whole "there's no floor in space" to deal with.

It's why I say there's no actual evidence of the touted post-jihad economic recovery. (at least, outside the borders of the Republic itself) Nobody bothered to do any fundamental reconstruction of critical infrastructure, they're all operating in collapse mode long before Gray Monday.
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SeeM

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Re: in 3152, exactly how many Warships does each Inner Sphere House have?
« Reply #20 on: 04 December 2022, 08:30:40 »
And in all that "Economic boom" between the end of the Jihad, and gray monday, NOBODY REBUILT THEIR INFRASTRUCTURE.

is that logical to you?  The surviving factories did business selling equipment, but nobody rebuilt what is, logically KEY INFRASTRUCTURE for an INTERSTELLAR NATION.

It's like this: you live in the middle of an island archipelago, and claim most of it.

BUT YOU DON'T HAVE A NAVY.
I assume it's mostly for a plot, as it was in the Succesion Wars at the beginning. With some of planetary campaigns taking several months, there is no room for a big faster than light fleets. Leftovers are just a spares for maybe a future use.

Following universe logic, maybe it is not a worthy an investment, as everyone else skips on fleets, too. Since no other threaten anyone in space, why wasting resources to protect it? It was exactly the same, until in 3050 the Clans came with Star League fleets. Only then Houses prepared limited fleet assets again.
« Last Edit: 08 December 2022, 13:55:43 by SeeM »
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Cannonshop

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Re: in 3152, exactly how many Warships does each Inner Sphere House have?
« Reply #21 on: 04 December 2022, 09:56:50 »
I assume it's mostly for a plot, as it was in the Succesion Wars at the beginning. With some of planetary campaigns taking several months, there is no room for a big faster than light fleets. Leftovers are just a spares for maybe a future use.

Following universe logic, maybe it is now an investment, until everyone else skips on fleets, too. Since no other threaten anyone in space, why wasting resources to protect it? It was exactly the same, until in 3050 the Clans came with Star League fleets. Only then Houses prepared limited fleet assets again.

Per the canon, the Houses had waship programs started in the 3040s.

you know, right after the war of '39 for steiners and davions etc. etc.

We're not even at the point talking warships here, and there's seven times as long anyway involved.

Shipyards are BASIC infrastructure for an island nation or interstellar nation.

and a functional national navy is how you keep your nation from fragmenting.

It's an authority to handle humanitarian crises in the event of disasters, it's the means you use to get ground troops to temporary hot spots, it's how you conduct customs inspections and smuggler interdiction to keep your currency stable and the public reassured that yes, they have a national government.

Navies need shipyards, because shipyards do all the fancy 'above operator level" maintenance on your dropships and jumsphips (and running them under the navy means consistent quality specs for your D-level and higher checks on spacecraft to verify you're not going to strand your military traffic on a broken boat.)

Nobody built any replacements for the damn YARDS,  never mind building enough yards to maintain the leftover cripples in their fleet, or replacements for those cripples.

It's basic.  During the succession wars, it made some sense that yard spaces were limited because everyone was flicking nukes every five minutes for two and a half centuries and no breath was there to be had...but the era of Stone's 'Peace'??

was not that level of ongoing conflict that saps resources and sees Comstar-sponsored assassination teams taking out engineers and erasing libraries with mushroom clouds.

Navies fill jobs armies of battlemechs don't...can't...fill.  Everything from inspecting merchant traffic to control contraband and collect taxes to certifying that merchant traffic is safe for civilians to move their goods on, to providing training and chart updates for navigation to maintaining quarantine beacons and assuring nobody goes down to the surface of Alarion or odessa or Galedon to bring back by accident the gifts that keep on killing to a population center.

(Dead taxpayers don't pay for secret battlemech armies.  Dead workers don't build them.)

You can't maintain the superfund leftovers of the Jihad (iow keep the various plagues contained) without a navy, it's just too far to walk a battlemech, and space has no floor, and thing is, people are remarkably stubborn AND stupid about that kind of thing and if you don't have security keeping those systems in isolation, they're going to have grave-robbers that bring the contagion home along with the salvaged goods.

and that doesn't even touch on the "catch a Pirate/stop a bandit" role that keeps the peace peaceful.  (again, by the time you've moved a military unit on civilian routes, the raid's over, the raiders are gone, and you're too late-even if comstar's cooperative about getting word out swiftly, there's no guaranteed express route without having a Navy between your RCT's home base, and that collection of taxpayers on a nearby, but politically less important planet.)

This doesn't even touch on how many times the HPG net 'went down' or was interdicted in the years leading up to the Jihad, during it, etc. etc.

So there's actually a role here, too, that INTELLIGENT House Lords would have to account for, and that's before Gray Monday-the role of "We gotta be able to communicate with our administrators if the network has problems."

Mail Delivery.  Internal communications in the event of an emergency-which there are so many examples leading up to the present of 3132, that such a service would definitely be necessary to have in-place and ready to go in the event that something political or technical happens to the phone company as has happened many, many times in the past.

Reliable communication is how you can measure how large an empire can be and sustain itself.  Literally the reach of your military traffic dictates how much territory you can actually hold or maintain, this is true even on one little blue planet called earth.  It's why the Roman Empire ended up fracturing into eastern and western empires and why it eventually failed and collapsed.

It's why the Mongol Empire is reduced to a dry, somewhat worthless, land-locked client state when they're the first bunch to successfully win a series of land wars in asia.

Communication was how the British Empire got so big-they had a Navy to carry it until Telegraphs and Wireless were invented, and successfully integrated those means into their existing system-but they didn't give up using the navy to carry messages they didn't want, say, foreign competitors to read (From, say, London to Capetown, or from London to Hong Kong.)

Reliable shipping requires PROTECTION...and battlemechs don't fly very well and there's no floor in space.  If there's a way to make an illicit profit hijacking shipping, (and there always is) then someone is going to be doing that, and the only real protection you have is Naval forces trained and equipped for the task.

It's BASIC infrastructure.  Not complex, not something you can, as a government, afford to put off until next year because there's a street fair in tharkad city you want to attend.

It's also not something you're wise to subcontract out to a foreign nation.  IN the case of "Your capital is Sian" it's something you're explicitly NOT going to sub out to the people you're intent on fighting a war with.

Per the canon, nobody did this.  THAT in turn suggests that nobody COULD DO THIS.

which makes the 'great recovery' a lie, propaganda.

Unlike starting a war, this is one of those things that if you CAN do it, you DO IT because you want to be able to make that choice or defend your territory later when someone else has made that investment.

Because they WILL.  The damned thing is too vital NOT to do it...unless they really can't, in which case, your remnant states are basically plunging into collapse head-first LONG BEFORE Gray Monday.
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CVB

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Re: in 3152, exactly how many Warships does each Inner Sphere House have?
« Reply #22 on: 05 December 2022, 15:12:03 »
Fair enough

So the Brest and Michael Saille are MIA, presumed gone until stated other wise, rip FSN first to go
Probably rammed each other, somewhere, for some reason. ;D
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Caesar Steiner for Archon

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Re: in 3152, exactly how many Warships does each Inner Sphere House have?
« Reply #23 on: 05 December 2022, 20:19:22 »
is that logical to you?

I think you are discounting that Devlin Stone told them not to and he got everything he want without question. ****** but that whole era was stupid.


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PsihoKekec

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Re: in 3152, exactly how many Warships does each Inner Sphere House have?
« Reply #24 on: 06 December 2022, 01:32:51 »
Wasn't one Fox mentioned as destroyed in Sandoval civil war?
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Stormlion1

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Re: in 3152, exactly how many Warships does each Inner Sphere House have?
« Reply #25 on: 06 December 2022, 21:02:00 »
I think one Avalon Cruiser went missing at the end of the FedCom Civil War and still hasn't been found. The Andrew Davion I think it was.
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PsihoKekec

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Re: in 3152, exactly how many Warships does each Inner Sphere House have?
« Reply #26 on: 07 December 2022, 01:20:01 »
FCS Melissa Davion. It initially survived naval battle for Terra, despite some dumbass FS admiral throwing two Foxes at her and thus compromising coalition missile defense grid. In Jihad: Final Reckoning it is mentioned that it was then destroyed in defense of Circinus, when Regulans gibsoned the world.
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Metallgewitter

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Re: in 3152, exactly how many Warships does each Inner Sphere House have?
« Reply #27 on: 07 December 2022, 07:24:33 »
FM 3145 stated that the Suns had one Fox left standing guard over New Avalon. But Shattered Fortress didn't mention said warship in any way in the "combine conquers New Avalon" section. It's either serving as a flagship for Julian while he is trying to defend his realm or it was written out of existence

And yeah the Andrew Davion went missing during the FedCom civil war and hasn't been found. Probably also written out of existence or a convenient plot device for the current Fedsuns (like finding the misjumped Avalon bringing it back online and using it as the lead ship to retake New Avalon as a sign of "we might have lost one over Plamyra but now we are back for revenge!")

Dragon Cat

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Re: in 3152, exactly how many Warships does each Inner Sphere House have?
« Reply #28 on: 07 December 2022, 07:36:54 »
The thing that surprises me about the lack of shipyards/warships is they are huge providers of jobs keep your nations people employed with them and keep the money in economies running

For huge nations I'd have thought they'd have minimum 3 or 4 yards each just building and maintaining JumpShips, I know BattleTech ships are magic and lasted through the Succession Wars without major refit ::) but especially in Stoners era I'd be producing DOZENS every year to take advantage of the era of peace and the increased trade youd have to assume comes with that

More JumpShips means more escorts in my mind
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Cannonshop

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Re: in 3152, exactly how many Warships does each Inner Sphere House have?
« Reply #29 on: 07 December 2022, 12:25:36 »
FM 3145 stated that the Suns had one Fox left standing guard over New Avalon. But Shattered Fortress didn't mention said warship in any way in the "combine conquers New Avalon" section. It's either serving as a flagship for Julian while he is trying to defend his realm or it was written out of existence

And yeah the Andrew Davion went missing during the FedCom civil war and hasn't been found. Probably also written out of existence or a convenient plot device for the current Fedsuns (like finding the misjumped Avalon bringing it back online and using it as the lead ship to retake New Avalon as a sign of "we might have lost one over Plamyra but now we are back for revenge!")

they're going to need to find someone whose IQ is larger than their trousers if they want THAT to succeed, and I doubt there's anyone like that in the FSN (or any OTHER navy that isn't Clanner.)

Palmyra was almost texbook what you do NOT do with several hundred billion (currency) of irreplaceable public property.  To wit: you don't send your slow moving strategic bomber into ground support mode when you don't have total air superiority, because what happens is what happened-it ends up deconstructively lithobraking because holding pose over a tactical battlefield leaves you unable to maneuver or fight in your own defense.

it's like Ramming, it looks AWESOME on the holovid, it just doesn't work if your opponent is not incompetent or cooperative.  You don't OB when the enemy is Landing forces, because for the enemy to be landing forces you don't have control over the airspace.  The Lucien should have been going after the incoming Dracs in space, not trying to drop walls of fire around a ground engagement.

It's another one of those "this is why you don't have 'mechwarriors command SHIPS."  Which FSN and everyone else, seems insistent on doing.

Naval combat is not a 'mech fight, any more than Naval combat on Earth is like fighting with Tanks on dirt.

they are not similar past a mild cosmetic similarity in that both are large machines with guns.  the characteristics of competency are dissimilar enough that cross-branch success is unlikely.  (aka you don't, in a modern context, put an Army Major in charge of an Aircraft Carrier or Dreadnought battleship.  He'll be out of his depth and make irrational mistakes, which we see again, and again and again in the fiction for Battletech whenever Warships crop up...)

The published Culture of the militaries in Battletech suggests the chances of getting the kind of officer who could actually DO what you're talking about requires an enormous amount of Deus Ex Machina.

That is, they'd have to actually BREAK the setting to do it.

There is no Admiral Yi in Battletech, those only exist in Fanfics where we can gleefully break the setting's established rules.
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