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Author Topic: IS Police Forces?  (Read 3808 times)

Colt Ward

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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #60 on: 19 July 2021, 14:56:30 »
The thing to understand from such a balancing act between competing forces that have the same objective is you are not looking for efficiency in achieving the stated objective.  The 'unspoken' objective is the security of those in power by staying in power . . . any inefficiency in the stated objective of security (and the casualties resulting from it) is a unfortunate byproduct.
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RifleMech

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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #61 on: 19 July 2021, 15:39:03 »
What DOC is suggesting is where that is a feature, not a flaw.  I am reminded about how the Soviet guards to the Kremlin were described at one point.

(snip)

I never said it was a flaw. Having all the various powers all being held in check also makes sense with feudal governments.

I can also see multiple government groups using mechs beyond just Police, Militia and House Guards, with Fire Departments, City Engineers, Agriculture Department, Government Security, etc. There's also Corporate Security if the factory is state owned. Many of those could have smaller departments which would spread power even more. The Militia could be divided between Air, Land, Sea and Space Forces. You could end up with things like the Navy going up against the Harbor Police and Fish and Game Wardens. All of whom have various types of combat units including Mechs.
 


Thank you.

You're welcome :)



Colt Ward

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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #62 on: 19 July 2021, 16:25:45 »
Most factories are not nationally owned though a few are owned by the planetary ruler (Defiance comes to mind) and I would say all of them have security forces- either company owned, hiring mercs, or both (Ronin on Wallis comes to mind).

IMO there is a difference in what they expect to face Grand Theft Mech or someone out joy-meching (looking at you Calamity & Julian) as a police force (LAPD) vs being a paramilitary security force (France's National Gendarmerie) that mixes armed security & intel/investigations.  Sort of the difference between a force using Peacemaker/Inquisitor Mk II/Copper vs a Inquisitor Mk I/Quasit.  I think for city police or county sheriffs at best you looking at something with MGs, SRMs, Fluid Guns, Probes, or MechTasers/TSEMP to disable.  For a paramilitary security force, we are talking about something that packs real mech weapons like ACs, LRMs, and lasers along with being more durable.
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Sartris

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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #63 on: 19 July 2021, 17:02:23 »
or the owner *is* the planetary ruler - like Irian

Daryk

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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #64 on: 19 July 2021, 17:05:00 »
If you can't bring the factory into the government, bring the OWNER into the government...  ^-^

RifleMech

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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #65 on: 19 July 2021, 17:48:35 »
Most factories are not nationally owned though a few are owned by the planetary ruler (Defiance comes to mind) and I would say all of them have security forces- either company owned, hiring mercs, or both (Ronin on Wallis comes to mind).

IMO there is a difference in what they expect to face Grand Theft Mech or someone out joy-meching (looking at you Calamity & Julian) as a police force (LAPD) vs being a paramilitary security force (France's National Gendarmerie) that mixes armed security & intel/investigations.  Sort of the difference between a force using Peacemaker/Inquisitor Mk II/Copper vs a Inquisitor Mk I/Quasit.  I think for city police or county sheriffs at best you looking at something with MGs, SRMs, Fluid Guns, Probes, or MechTasers/TSEMP to disable.  For a paramilitary security force, we are talking about something that packs real mech weapons like ACs, LRMs, and lasers along with being more durable.

True and corporations can have larger securitymechs, especially if their protection is in the national interest. I would think that who owns the factory would determine the level of security. Still, I think the factory itself wouldn't have better than Corporate SecurityMechs for security. More powerful units could be assigned or hired though. Plus you could put a military base right next door.

Would the paramilitary forces be Military Police and be part of the Militia? If yes, it'd make sense their using MilitiaMechs and Corporate SecurityMechs.

That's also how the SecurityMech treaty goes. SecurityMechs are limited to 35 tons or less with weapons weighing 2 tons or less. With some weapon exceptions like the Taser. Corporate SecurityMechs could be heavier up to  50 tons and have weapons up to 9 tons in weight.

DOC_Agren

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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #66 on: 19 July 2021, 18:06:40 »
I never said it was a flaw. Having all the various powers all being held in check also makes sense with feudal governments.
Thanks you

Quote
Fire Departments, City Engineers, Agriculture Department
If to stop a Grand Theft Mech or Haulermech converted into a Killdozer modified one, if I need to borrow what I see them having for Industrial Mechs possible it because it is in the area already and is closer. 

If there a important factory on planet and they don't have their own security force that "in operational theory" should help in planetary defense if we are invaded, but honestly most of the time would stay near they base of operation.  And might include a Mech force either raised in house on contracted to it. after all how many of us have done security/garrison gig for corporation in our bt games?

And the farther the Duke Leonard Beissel of the planet Saravan, LC breaks down his "security forces" to help secure his powerbase, the weaker we become should anyone really land to invade as we conflicting chains of command issuing orders. 
To use your example the Navy and the Harbor Police and Fish and Game Wardens all working on the waters end up issuing orders that do not help each other but in the end allow the raiders to slip back out from the conflict zone. 

But the good news is to assemble a coup force against the Duke is very differcult.

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Daryk

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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #67 on: 19 July 2021, 18:18:40 »
*snip*
That's also how the SecurityMech treaty goes. SecurityMechs are limited to 35 tons or less with weapons weighing 2 tons or less. With some weapon exceptions like the Taser. Corporate SecurityMechs could be heavier up to  50 tons and have weapons up to 9 tons in weight.
Two things:

1) I'm pretty sure Defiance, Inc. vs. The Archon is still working it's way through the Lyran court system, and will be until the end of time.

2) 35 tons or less with weapons 2 tons or less is a loophole you can drive a JVN-11A through...  >:D

Colt Ward

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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #68 on: 19 July 2021, 18:29:58 »
Besides, go look up the Defiance Self-Protection Force . . . or what Star Corps has for security out at Son Hoa . . . heck, Ronin had a lance out at a LGR site that was 2 Warhammers, 2 Marauders and mixed bag of 2 companies of mercs.
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Kovax

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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #69 on: 20 July 2021, 10:10:26 »
Since the forces stated to defend certain planets seem to be FAR too small to even put down modest revolts, much less withstand full-scale planetary invasions, either a sizable planetary militia, heavily militarized Police forces, mercenary units, or other "non-House-army" forces have to exist.  That can be a combination of various nobles' own armies, which can be called up for service at need, retired veterans who were "gifted" a 'Mech upon retirement (with the stipulation that they can be reactivated if the planet comes under attack), local militia, and local police forces.

The last two of these have the potential to hold a lot of defensive assets for protection of specific critical locations, but somewhat lacking in mobile heavy assets: primarily infantry, gun turrets, and heavy vehicles.  These would not normally be counted as part of the planet's garrison, but would become involved if the specific location they defend is attacked.

RifleMech

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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #70 on: 20 July 2021, 10:44:21 »
Thanks you
If to stop a Grand Theft Mech or Haulermech converted into a Killdozer modified one, if I need to borrow what I see them having for Industrial Mechs possible it because it is in the area already and is closer. 

Welcome

Police could commandeer local industrial Mechs or vehicles. If they had their own though, they wouldn't need to.
I've seen that video. It's amazing. 


Quote
If there a important factory on planet and they don't have their own security force that "in operational theory" should help in planetary defense if we are invaded, but honestly most of the time would stay near they base of operation.  And might include a Mech force either raised in house on contracted to it. after all how many of us have done security/garrison gig for corporation in our bt games?

They are doing their part for the planet by keeping the factory safe. I can see them helping with national disasters and such. In an invasion though, their job is to protect the factory. They can't do that if they're not there.


Quote
And the farther the Duke Leonard Beissel of the planet Saravan, LC breaks down his "security forces" to help secure his powerbase, the weaker we become should anyone really land to invade as we conflicting chains of command issuing orders. 
To use your example the Navy and the Harbor Police and Fish and Game Wardens all working on the waters end up issuing orders that do not help each other but in the end allow the raiders to slip back out from the conflict zone. 

But the good news is to assemble a coup force against the Duke is very differcult.

How weak they are and how much internal squabbling there is depends entirely on the people in them and how willing they are to set aside differences in the face of the enemy.  Groups could get along well together. Maybe some friendly rivalry. Or they could hate each other and spend more time fighting each other. 

RifleMech

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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #71 on: 20 July 2021, 11:09:18 »
Two things:

1) I'm pretty sure Defiance, Inc. vs. The Archon is still working it's way through the Lyran court system, and will be until the end of time.

2) 35 tons or less with weapons 2 tons or less is a loophole you can drive a JVN-11A through...  >:D


1) Probably.

2) It's not so much Manufactures not following the Treaty. It's more planetary governments not following the treaty. 


Besides, go look up the Defiance Self-Protection Force . . . or what Star Corps has for security out at Son Hoa . . . heck, Ronin had a lance out at a LGR site that was 2 Warhammers, 2 Marauders and mixed bag of 2 companies of mercs.

The Defiance Self-Protection Force feels more like Troops of the Planetary Lord than an actual Security Force.
Star Corps Need more info. Sarna lists House Troops and Mercs as defenders on Son Hoa.
Ronin Do you mean the Ronin (Mercenary Command)? They're mercs.



Since the forces stated to defend certain planets seem to be FAR too small to even put down modest revolts, much less withstand full-scale planetary invasions, either a sizable planetary militia, heavily militarized Police forces, mercenary units, or other "non-House-army" forces have to exist.  That can be a combination of various nobles' own armies, which can be called up for service at need, retired veterans who were "gifted" a 'Mech upon retirement (with the stipulation that they can be reactivated if the planet comes under attack), local militia, and local police forces.

The last two of these have the potential to hold a lot of defensive assets for protection of specific critical locations, but somewhat lacking in mobile heavy assets: primarily infantry, gun turrets, and heavy vehicles.  These would not normally be counted as part of the planet's garrison, but would become involved if the specific location they defend is attacked.


I think the size and strength of planetary forces depends on the planet. Trell isn't going to have the forces New Avalon does. I also don't think Police and Security Forces are going to go out to meet invading dropships. They're going to be protecting the cities and factories. It's the Militia, and any House Troops, that are supposed to go meet the invaders to keep them from getting to any important targets. Once they get to the town or factory then yeah, the PD, and SF along with any others get involved in the fighting. Although I think the PD, FD, etc would be escorting civilians to safety.

CVB

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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #72 on: 20 July 2021, 11:24:37 »
Ronin Do you mean the Ronin (Mercenary Command)? They're mercs.
Probably Ronin Inc. on Wallis.

Quote
I think the size and strength of planetary forces depends on the planet. Trell isn't going to have the forces New Avalon does.

That, and it also depends on the era. In times when many planets can/could be successfully invaded by a 'mech company or even just a lance, there can't/couldn't be too many police and security mechs present.
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RifleMech

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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #73 on: 20 July 2021, 11:54:51 »
Probably Ronin Inc. on Wallis.

That, and it also depends on the era. In times when many planets can/could be successfully invaded by a 'mech company or even just a lance, there can't/couldn't be too many police and security mechs present.

Thanks. I'm still not finding security forces more than mechs though. :(


That's true.

Colt Ward

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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #74 on: 20 July 2021, 12:31:34 »
It is in the story, it is a satellite LGR production & testing facility where they had stationed a pair of Marauders and a pair of Warhammers for 'close' security and hired the Irregulars as cover/security.
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Kojak

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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #75 on: 20 July 2021, 13:26:22 »
Has anyone in this thread actually bothered to sit down and read the various entries on police vehicles in TRO:VA? It explains a ton of stuff people are trying to figure out on here.


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RifleMech

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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #76 on: 20 July 2021, 19:21:57 »
It is in the story, it is a satellite LGR production & testing facility where they had stationed a pair of Marauders and a pair of Warhammers for 'close' security and hired the Irregulars as cover/security.

Which story?


Has anyone in this thread actually bothered to sit down and read the various entries on police vehicles in TRO:VA? It explains a ton of stuff people are trying to figure out on here.

I have. They're pretty cool vehicles but they're not your average patrol cars. It also doesn't say how how much of the police department is configured.



Colt Ward

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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #77 on: 20 July 2021, 20:09:41 »
Which story?


I have. They're pretty cool vehicles but they're not your average patrol cars. It also doesn't say how how much of the police department is configured.

 . . . Chaos Irregulars only had one story on Wallis, it does appear in afaik 3 places.
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RifleMech

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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #78 on: 21 July 2021, 15:32:19 »
Still can't find it. :(  The Chaos Irregulars were mercs though so that could explain the heavier mechs but I don't know without the story. Do you have more info? Does it say who those mechs belonged to or just that they're listed among the defenders? 

DOC_Agren

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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #79 on: 22 July 2021, 00:05:18 »
there was also this story that I got to watch live as it went by from my work front window
Grand Theft/Joy Ride Front End Loader.
When it went by "escort" by pd we thought it was on it way somewhere impoirtanr to help out.  Really all the cops could do escort it until they got out of control and then they blew a tire and caused it to hung up on the guardrail.  not sure they carry enough firepower to takeout a leg?

Quote
They are doing their part for the planet by keeping the factory safe. I can see them helping with national disasters and such. In an invasion though, their job is to protect the factory. They can' other. 
t do that if they're not there.
  Yeah but does the security team help stop that stolen Haulermech that going by, or is it outside "their" job?

Quote
How weak they are and how much internal squabbling there is depends entirely on the people in them and how willing they are to set aside differences in the face of the enemy.  Groups could get along well together. Maybe some friendly rivalry. Or they could hate each other and spend more time fighting each
I know when I worked for company with a layer of department managers who spent more of their time working against other "managers" then get the job done to increase their power base.  2 years after I left, they were bought out by a challenger who was smaller but better run
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Colt Ward

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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #80 on: 22 July 2021, 00:38:23 »
Still can't find it. :(  The Chaos Irregulars were mercs though so that could explain the heavier mechs but I don't know without the story. Do you have more info? Does it say who those mechs belonged to or just that they're listed among the defenders?

Dude, I just told you- they were Ronin owned and operated mechs that were there to protect a research project without even the mercs knowing the specifics.  The Irregulars have something like 6 or 7 stores, which were reset in two books.  It is in the first book, Chaos Born- ALL the story titles have some play on the place names in the title IIRC.
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RifleMech

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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #81 on: 22 July 2021, 14:46:29 »
there was also this story that I got to watch live as it went by from my work front window
Grand Theft/Joy Ride Front End Loader.

When it went by "escort" by pd we thought it was on it way somewhere impoirtanr to help out.  Really all the cops could do escort it until they got out of control and then they blew a tire and caused it to hung up on the guardrail.  not sure they carry enough firepower to takeout a leg?

Cool video :thumbsup:


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t do that if they're not there.   Yeah but does the security team help stop that stolen Haulermech that going by, or is it outside "their" job?

If it isn't their Haulermech or it isn't trying to get inside, it's outside their job. They might offer assistance but just jumping in could upset police plans.


Quote
I know when I worked for company with a layer of department managers who spent more of their time working against other "managers" then get the job done to increase their power base.  2 years after I left, they were bought out by a challenger who was smaller but better run

Yeah. That happens.



Dude, I just told you- they were Ronin owned and operated mechs that were there to protect a research project without even the mercs knowing the specifics.  The Irregulars have something like 6 or 7 stores, which were reset in two books.  It is in the first book, Chaos Born- ALL the story titles have some play on the place names in the title IIRC.


Chaos Born. Thank you. I'm sorry, I don't have everything memorized. It's hard to tell if those mechs are official security or improvised because of the raids.

Colt Ward

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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #82 on: 22 July 2021, 14:51:58 »
I told you they were Marauders and Warhammers, both produced by Ronin anyway.
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RifleMech

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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #83 on: 22 July 2021, 15:14:22 »
I told you they were Marauders and Warhammers, both produced by Ronin anyway.

Yes but that wasn't the question. The question is if they're an official security force or not? They could just be test pilots protecting the plant. They could be other mercs. They could be official but temporary security, for a long as the raids happen. There's lots of unanswered questions there.

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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #84 on: 22 July 2021, 15:18:38 »
Iirc they are specifically described as the local security lance for the mech plant.

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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #85 on: 22 July 2021, 16:19:39 »
Yes but that wasn't the question. The question is if they're an official security force or not? They could just be test pilots protecting the plant. They could be other mercs. They could be official but temporary security, for a long as the raids happen. There's lots of unanswered questions there.

Nope, they are company security mechs as I said at the time they were brought up- they guard the two prototype Warhammers with variable type LGR munitions.  It was why I described them as close security rather than just more generic security.  The totally not Son Hoa raiders were trying to find what was protected and draw out the defenders . . . which is why Ronin hired the Irregulars to provide supplemental security (meat shields) and be window dressing.
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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #86 on: 23 July 2021, 11:45:29 »
Nothing says that the 2 Warhammer and 2 Marauders are Corporate Security. That they own the mechs or that they're guarding a facility doesn't mean a lot. They could be mercs. They could be volunteers guarding the plant. They could be Security. There isn't enough information to tell.

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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #87 on: 23 July 2021, 12:14:39 »
You are saying that without reading the story just because you want to keep arguing it.

It was also, and clearly stated, as guarding R&D facility and prototype mech designs as 'close' security.

We get a LONG list of mech factories that use their own products for security forces.  The factory on St Ives that Aris Sung raids has to deal with Helios, etc defending the production lines.  Defiance's Hesperus facility has security companies is in several novels and I think their Furillo plant does as well in a FCCW novel.  Coventry had one before the Falcons slaughtered them (several times).  IIRC the TRO PP fiction, the Capellan factory (on Warlock?) is scrambling the defense force out to save their prototype that was getting hunted by a Vicore prototype.

Honestly, it is easier to name the mech factories in fiction that do not have mech-equipped security as part of the company.
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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #88 on: 23 July 2021, 12:54:10 »
huh, this discussion has gotten pretty far afield from the original question, which was (IIRC) what a TYPICAL well-equipped Police force might be using, as opposed to the personal armsmen of a Lord, or the critical security forces for a corporation that might as well be their own government.

So hey, I'm back again.  The problem here, is defining 'what is a police force' and how that might be different from Corporate Security, or the local Noble's brute squad (both of which may also fill police ROLES, but 'police' is not their primary role, if you know what I mean.)

Basically in modern terms?

Blackwater-is not a police force.

Wackenhutt Security-is also not a police force, though they do at times fill a police role.

Neither were Executive Outcomes, or the Pinkertons (the latter of which built their reputation as private detectives and corporate guards, not police.)

Policing is actually it's own specialty, and the main specialty about it, is maintaining day-to-day law-and-order.  That cop who wrote you a ticket for doing 35 in a 25? yeah, that's his day-what he does-enforcing decress, laws, or regulations on commoners in the day-to-day of life.   The guys who show up at 3 AM on a noise complaint because your neighbours are tuning each other up with frying pans and screams? The guys who have to examine the scene when the neighbor kid is found overdosed in the library bathroom?  The men and women who have to take a statement because Leslie from the Diner is covered in bruises and hiding from her live-in-boyfriend to keep him from pounding her three year old into a pulp in a drunken rage?

Yeah, Those Guys.

The people who live with day-to-day non-glorious horrors, who have to tell you to slow the ****** down in a school zone, or have to ask you about your nephew's five-finger-discount at the local five and ten store.

you know, Police.

The people who get called when little suzy gets chased up onto the rock-face behind the school and can't get herself down again, or the ones who find Teddy in the bathroom with his brains decorating the shower because his girlfriend likes rokko better.

This is the world of the banal grind of life, not the action-packed duel with Killdozer or deterring pirates with heavy weapons.

They're the guys who have to file the report when your uncle replaces the brakes on his ground car with poor people, and they're the ones who have to 'do something' when a body is found floating in the reservoir with no identification.

get the idea? what kind of toys do they get to play with?

Context, guys.
"If ye love wealth better than liberty,
the tranquility of servitude
better than the animating contest of freedom,
go home from us in peace.
We ask not your counsels or your arms.
Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you.
May your chains set lightly upon you,
and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."-Samuel Adams

Colt Ward

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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #89 on: 23 July 2021, 13:05:27 »
Which is here . . . but other nations have other traditions like I mentioned the National Gendarmerie which is close to the US military MP's mixed with the FBI from the description.  Heck, the US even had the Texas Rangers, which were originally a paramilitary police force.  IIRC, one of the KGB departments was a national policing force.  we can, and will, get almost every flavor of current and historical models among the thousand plus inhabited worlds of the Inner Sphere and Periphery.

Among the Houses, the Drac's national police always seemed the most militant.
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