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Author Topic: IS Police Forces?  (Read 3434 times)

Cannonshop

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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #90 on: 23 July 2021, 13:30:47 »
Which is here . . . but other nations have other traditions like I mentioned the National Gendarmerie which is close to the US military MP's mixed with the FBI from the description.  Heck, the US even had the Texas Rangers, which were originally a paramilitary police force.  IIRC, one of the KGB departments was a national policing force.  we can, and will, get almost every flavor of current and historical models among the thousand plus inhabited worlds of the Inner Sphere and Periphery.

Among the Houses, the Drac's national police always seemed the most militant.

but they have certain BASIC functions, whether it's collecting taxes (Fines), or security guards, the basic 'police' package includes domestic order, and dealing with the daily horrors of ordinary life like suicides, murders, rape, domestic abuse and so on-the bulk of which don't require 100mm autocannons or vehicle-grade lasers.  Even the KGB and Moscow Militia had to deal with traffic stops, or domestic law enforcement issues including serial killers, rapists, drunk and disorderly, and so on.
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RifleMech

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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #91 on: 23 July 2021, 13:45:02 »
You are saying that without reading the story just because you want to keep arguing it.

It was also, and clearly stated, as guarding R&D facility and prototype mech designs as 'close' security.

We get a LONG list of mech factories that use their own products for security forces.  The factory on St Ives that Aris Sung raids has to deal with Helios, etc defending the production lines.  Defiance's Hesperus facility has security companies is in several novels and I think their Furillo plant does as well in a FCCW novel.  Coventry had one before the Falcons slaughtered them (several times).  IIRC the TRO PP fiction, the Capellan factory (on Warlock?) is scrambling the defense force out to save their prototype that was getting hunted by a Vicore prototype.

Honestly, it is easier to name the mech factories in fiction that do not have mech-equipped security as part of the company.

No. I'm not. We actually know more about the Wallis Militia than we do Ronin's Security Forces. Sure there's 4 mechs guarding the factory and town but we don't know if that's normal or improvised in response to the raids. If I missed something please quote it.

Those are same reasons why the Mercenary Unit the Chaos Irregulars were hired.

I never said that Mechs weren't apart of security forces and improvised defenses are not a part of the security forces. I did say that there legalities as to why SecurityMechs were limited. I also said why I thought larger Battlemechs wouldn't be included. I don't think any militia want's corporate security to be better armed than them. What would stop the corporation from taking over the planet?

Colt Ward

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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #92 on: 23 July 2021, 13:52:55 »
No. I'm not. We actually know more about the Wallis Militia than we do Ronin's Security Forces. Sure there's 4 mechs guarding the factory and town but we don't know if that's normal or improvised in response to the raids. If I missed something please quote it.

Those are same reasons why the Mercenary Unit the Chaos Irregulars were hired.

The whole thing with the Irregulars was cloak & dagger- which is why I said they were a blind.  The Irregulars were not hired to protect the town- they did that to build good will.  The Irregulars were hired to guard the LGR facility so Ronin would not have to reveal their actual guards or even the real facility they were worried about.

I don't think any militia want's corporate security to be better armed than them. What would stop the corporation from taking over the planet?

Which has happened . . . and does not require armed forces to carry it off nessecarily.
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AlphaMirage

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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #93 on: 23 July 2021, 13:54:51 »

Which has happened . . . and does not require armed forces to carry it off necessarily.

Consider the corporation is likely controlled or controlling the noble in charge of that planet I'd say the police have no say in the matter.

Colt Ward

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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #94 on: 23 July 2021, 13:55:06 »
but they have certain BASIC functions, whether it's collecting taxes (Fines), or security guards, the basic 'police' package includes domestic order, and dealing with the daily horrors of ordinary life like suicides, murders, rape, domestic abuse and so on-the bulk of which don't require 100mm autocannons or vehicle-grade lasers.  Even the KGB and Moscow Militia had to deal with traffic stops, or domestic law enforcement issues including serial killers, rapists, drunk and disorderly, and so on.

Sure, but you are acting like they are all traffic cops . . . and some police agencies do not deal with the more mundane policing- such as the FBI or state troopers/investigators.
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manunancy

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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #95 on: 23 July 2021, 14:27:50 »
Some off-topic words from a french guy, about the Gendarmerie Nationale : France as basically two very similar police forces : The Police Nationale and the Gendarmerie Nationale - both including your regular cops but also riot controls units (Gendarmes Mobiles for the Gendarmerie, CRS (Republican security companies) for the police), with the Gendarmes packing a bit heavier stuff up to a few small wheeld APCs. Both have SWAT-like units too.

The Police is mostly in the large cities and the Gendarmes out in the countryside/small towns.

The big difference was that until 2008, the Police was under interior Minister and the Gendarmes under the Defense Minister (in 2008 the Gendarmes moved to the Interior).

For historical reasons (the Gendarmerie descending from the the royal troops and the police from the urban milices). Also since the setup was formalized during the 19th century (not exactly the stablest period in french history...) I wouldn't be surprised if it was also intended to let the Defense Minister watch the Interior Minister and vice versa.

RifleMech

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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #96 on: 23 July 2021, 14:31:00 »
huh, this discussion has gotten pretty far afield from the original question, which was (IIRC) what a TYPICAL well-equipped Police force might be using, as opposed to the personal armsmen of a Lord, or the critical security forces for a corporation that might as well be their own government.

So hey, I'm back again.  The problem here, is defining 'what is a police force' and how that might be different from Corporate Security, or the local Noble's brute squad (both of which may also fill police ROLES, but 'police' is not their primary role, if you know what I mean.)

Basically in modern terms?

Blackwater-is not a police force.

Wackenhutt Security-is also not a police force, though they do at times fill a police role.

Neither were Executive Outcomes, or the Pinkertons (the latter of which built their reputation as private detectives and corporate guards, not police.)

Policing is actually it's own specialty, and the main specialty about it, is maintaining day-to-day law-and-order.  That cop who wrote you a ticket for doing 35 in a 25? yeah, that's his day-what he does-enforcing decress, laws, or regulations on commoners in the day-to-day of life.   The guys who show up at 3 AM on a noise complaint because your neighbours are tuning each other up with frying pans and screams? The guys who have to examine the scene when the neighbor kid is found overdosed in the library bathroom?  The men and women who have to take a statement because Leslie from the Diner is covered in bruises and hiding from her live-in-boyfriend to keep him from pounding her three year old into a pulp in a drunken rage?

Yeah, Those Guys.

The people who live with day-to-day non-glorious horrors, who have to tell you to slow the ****** down in a school zone, or have to ask you about your nephew's five-finger-discount at the local five and ten store.

you know, Police.

The people who get called when little suzy gets chased up onto the rock-face behind the school and can't get herself down again, or the ones who find Teddy in the bathroom with his brains decorating the shower because his girlfriend likes rokko better.

This is the world of the banal grind of life, not the action-packed duel with Killdozer or deterring pirates with heavy weapons.

They're the guys who have to file the report when your uncle replaces the brakes on his ground car with poor people, and they're the ones who have to 'do something' when a body is found floating in the reservoir with no identification.

get the idea? what kind of toys do they get to play with?

Context, guys.

It largely depends on how large and how wealthy the department is. A small town, might have a half dozen officers, a couple patrol cars, and have to barrow someone's boat to check out that report of a body in the lake. A huge city could have thousands of officers and thousands of civilian employees. They'd also have Officers for every type of duty with equipment to match.   

If you want to model after a real life police department,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Police_Department#Vehicles  and add a company or two of mechs. A Space Bureau could be added if wanted. Adjust everything as needed. Harbor Patrol could have 8 boats, 2 subs, and 4 Mechs along with various infantry.

This could be done for Fire Departments and other agencies as well.

The trick is how to organize them. If a Riot Platoon has 28 troops, how many would a Detective Platoon have or a Patrol Car Platoon?




RifleMech

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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #97 on: 23 July 2021, 14:50:32 »
The whole thing with the Irregulars was cloak & dagger- which is why I said they were a blind.  The Irregulars were not hired to protect the town- they did that to build good will.  The Irregulars were hired to guard the LGR facility so Ronin would not have to reveal their actual guards or even the real facility they were worried about.

Which has happened . . . and does not require armed forces to carry it off nessecarily.

True. However they did reveal some and got away with it because they were guarding the town.

True and in those cases they wouldn't have needed mechs on the planet.




Consider the corporation is likely controlled or controlling the noble in charge of that planet I'd say the police have no say in the matter.

That would depend on a lot of things.



Sure, but you are acting like they are all traffic cops . . . and some police agencies do not deal with the more mundane policing- such as the FBI or state troopers/investigators.

Do you mean like, different branches or Bureaus? Some handle patrol, others investigation?  Or do you mean different jurisdictions? Or do you mean specific responsibilities over multiple jurisdictions?


(snip)

Interesting. Thanks  :thumbsup:

Nerroth

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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #98 on: 24 July 2021, 10:40:15 »
In Canada, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police - an organization which began as the (Royal) North-West Mounted Police - is the federal-level law enforcement institution. But it also provides provincial/territorial and/or municipal policing services for those provinces, territories, and/or municipalities which do not have their own police forces.

It would not surprise me to see a number of worlds in the Inner Sphere and near Periphery with a similar setup, in the sense of blurring the lines between local, regional, and planetary police forces in some parts of the world compared to others.

-----

One other aspect which I wonder about is the concept of "space police" - as in, an empire-level organization equipped with its own JumpShips and DropShips, tasked both with pursuing investigations across multiple systems in a given star empire (akin to the modern-day FBI or RCMP) and/or with imposing some measure of control over the space lanes (broadly akin to the present-day U.S. or Chinese Coast Guards).

There is at least one other fictional universe in which the "space police" handle both the "federal law enforcement" and "Coast Guard in space" roles. But for those Inner Sphere or Periphery realms that would have such agencies in place, might they combine them into a single force or split the difference between the two?
« Last Edit: 24 July 2021, 10:45:36 by Nerroth »

AlphaMirage

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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #99 on: 24 July 2021, 17:58:07 »
In the Draconis Combine they have the Port Authority for system security. I expect other states roll such organizations into their Naval branches as they otherwise don't have much to do day to day.

For inter-planetary investigations I expect that is also Admiralty. Effectively making the NCIS into the FBI.

RifleMech

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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #100 on: 24 July 2021, 19:52:12 »
In Canada, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police - an organization which began as the (Royal) North-West Mounted Police - is the federal-level law enforcement institution. But it also provides provincial/territorial and/or municipal policing services for those provinces, territories, and/or municipalities which do not have their own police forces.

It would not surprise me to see a number of worlds in the Inner Sphere and near Periphery with a similar setup, in the sense of blurring the lines between local, regional, and planetary police forces in some parts of the world compared to others.

-----

One other aspect which I wonder about is the concept of "space police" - as in, an empire-level organization equipped with its own JumpShips and DropShips, tasked both with pursuing investigations across multiple systems in a given star empire (akin to the modern-day FBI or RCMP) and/or with imposing some measure of control over the space lanes (broadly akin to the present-day U.S. or Chinese Coast Guards).

There is at least one other fictional universe in which the "space police" handle both the "federal law enforcement" and "Coast Guard in space" roles. But for those Inner Sphere or Periphery realms that would have such agencies in place, might they combine them into a single force or split the difference between the two?


Makes sense.

I'm going to guess it varies. The bigger more heavily trafficked systems probably do have something like that. Most of the firepower would come from the realms Aerospace Defense Forces.  Still a Coast Guard/Customs Agency might have a Space station and a couple dropships and some small craft. Maybe some ASF just in case. Probably, equipment the main defense force no longer wants. I'm kind of doubtful on the jumpships considering how rare they are. If they do have any, they'd get requisitioned a lot by the military.

The less heavily travelled systems would have less and less until they might have some infantry on the ground to check any landed craft for smuggled items. Any Pirate hunting is for Mercs. There's probably undercover agents to locate bases but the actual hunting is for the mercs.

Jellico

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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #101 on: 24 July 2021, 23:11:38 »

RifleMech

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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #102 on: 26 July 2021, 01:25:41 »
Thanks. A lot of specific units haven't been named though. Specific types would change with location and availability. I still think smaller and or less wealthy departments wouldn't have them. As time goes on, I think they'd be more wide spread. But I think there would still be departments that'll have to make do without.

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RifleMech

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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #104 on: 26 July 2021, 19:15:08 »

Flieger

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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #105 on: 28 July 2021, 16:20:56 »
The Defiance Self-Protection Force feels more like Troops of the Planetary Lord than an actual Security Force.
Great emphasis is put on the fact that the DSPF does not fall under Lyran military command, may ignore even the Archon, and answers to Defiance's board of directors only. If they were like any local lord's troops, this would not be the case.
This is very much a private enterprise, and frankly I consider it surprising that the Lyrans allowed this to happen since Defiance technically could have turned against the Commonwealth and local LCAF forces would be in a tough position.

Anyway, what makes those units hard to understand is that we don't have this kind of force these days; the closest thing I know are the Industrieschutz-Staffeln (plant security squadrons) of German airplane manufacturers in WW2.

RifleMech

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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #106 on: 28 July 2021, 17:26:22 »
Great emphasis is put on the fact that the DSPF does not fall under Lyran military command, may ignore even the Archon, and answers to Defiance's board of directors only. If they were like any local lord's troops, this would not be the case.
This is very much a private enterprise, and frankly I consider it surprising that the Lyrans allowed this to happen since Defiance technically could have turned against the Commonwealth and local LCAF forces would be in a tough position.

Anyway, what makes those units hard to understand is that we don't have this kind of force these days; the closest thing I know are the Industrieschutz-Staffeln (plant security squadrons) of German airplane manufacturers in WW2.

Where is the bold part from?

The Defiance Self-Protection Force was founded in memory, of the volunteers who held off a Kuritan invasion, by Baron Brewer. While  dedicated to protecting Defiance Industries Factories on Hesperus, they have been placed under Lyran military command and gone on raids in Marik space. Those things really makes them sound like the personal troops of Baron Brewer.

If they are a true Corporate Security Company, the only reasons I could think of for them being allowed to use heavy and assault mechs would be Brewer's loyalty to the Archon and how much those factories mean to the defense of Lyran space.

I never heard of Industrieschutz-Staffeln before. Sounds cool. Where can I find more info?

CVB

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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #107 on: 28 July 2021, 23:18:19 »
I never heard of Industrieschutz-Staffeln before. Sounds cool. Where can I find more info?

Almost no information is available in English, and info in German is few and widely scattered because of the transitory, ad-hoc nature of those units.
A short synopsis in English can be found here.
Equipment was from newly-built aircraft on hand at the plants before hand-over to the Luftwaffe and some pre-series types retained that hadn't been developed into full series production, e.g. Heinkel He-100/"He-113", Focke-Wulf FW187.
A note on the term "Einflieger": though most often translated as "test pilot", their role was not testing new prototypes, rather they performed short acceptance and sometimes transfer flights of series production aircraft just off the assembly lines. Some of them were industry employees assigned a brevet military rank, some were seconded from the Luftwaffe.
A fighter "Staffel" nominally consisted of twelve a/c, a "Schwarm" of four. In actual combat situations, it was just whatever pilots and aircraft were available at the momment.
Hope this helps.
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Iron Grenadier

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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #108 on: 29 July 2021, 00:54:47 »
Where is the bold part from?

The Defiance Self-Protection Force was founded in memory, of the volunteers who held off a Kuritan invasion, by Baron Brewer. While  dedicated to protecting Defiance Industries Factories on Hesperus, they have been placed under Lyran military command and gone on raids in Marik space. Those things really makes them sound like the personal troops of Baron Brewer.

If they are a true Corporate Security Company, the only reasons I could think of for them being allowed to use heavy and assault mechs would be Brewer's loyalty to the Archon and how much those factories mean to the defense of Lyran space.


When did that bold part happen?

Defiance Industries also created the Thumpers as a 'demonstration' unit that was all heavy and assault mechs. The pilots bought themselves out and became mercs though after a short time.

Metallgewitter

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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #109 on: 29 July 2021, 04:39:50 »
Don't all arms manufacturer have a form of Security force? I know that Norse Storm has a battalion of Mechs for security and that unit raided (inofficially) the Shengli Arms manufacturer in retaliation for the loopsided stealth armor agreement (where Shengli Arms gave Norse Storm the technical specification in an obscure Han dialect). and I would assume that most of the Big shots in the Arms manufacturing have some form of security form. Just remembered Archernar on New Avalon has a battalion made of Legionares and Centurions augmented with infantry (I think it was on New Avalon)

RifleMech

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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #110 on: 29 July 2021, 10:49:32 »
(snip)
Hope this helps.

Cool! Thanks  :thumbsup:


When did that bold part happen?

Defiance Industries also created the Thumpers as a 'demonstration' unit that was all heavy and assault mechs. The pilots bought themselves out and became mercs though after a short time.

House_Steiner-The_Lyran_Commonwealth page 137.

Cool! Not corporate security but still very cool.  :thumbsup:

Flieger

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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #111 on: 29 July 2021, 16:27:15 »
Where is the bold part from?

The Defiance Self-Protection Force was founded in memory, of the volunteers who held off a Kuritan invasion, by Baron Brewer. While  dedicated to protecting Defiance Industries Factories on Hesperus, they have been placed under Lyran military command and gone on raids in Marik space. Those things really makes them sound like the personal troops of Baron Brewer.

If they are a true Corporate Security Company, the only reasons I could think of for them being allowed to use heavy and assault mechs would be Brewer's loyalty to the Archon and how much those factories mean to the defense of Lyran space.

There is a somewhat lengthy discussion in the novel The Dying Time, Ch.3, so here is the most important part from the mouth of DSPF commander Major Goree:

"it is your job to defend Hesperus II against any invaders. It is my job to defend the Defiance Industries plant. I understand that your contract allows you to draw from our stockpiles for repairs and reloads. However, that does not give you carte blanche, and it does not give you, or these officers"—he nodded toward the Lyran generals—"the authority to commandeer my people to bolster your own strength. My orders come from the board of directors of Defiance Hesperus, not from Tharkad"

I am aware of the DSPF history, and while the Brewer family loyalty to the Commonwealth sure helped, one should not forget the DSPF and young Daniel Brewer were part of a secession attempt in '57 and yet allowed to maintain operations as usual.
The quote above is from a situation in the FCCW, when Daniel Brewer had joined the Legion and took orders from the Lyran state - a fact that actually undermined his authority over the DSPF although he was the CEO of DefHes and thus Goree's employer.  Goree actually later used a NARC beacon on Brewer's lance approaching his cordon despite explicite orders to stand down which he did not obey citing DefHes company regulations.

If they had been anything other than a corporate security force, Goree would have been court-martialled. Instead he was invited to talks and a compromise was found, much to the dismay of Brewer. The DSPF has one master, the Defiance corporation. Defiance is loyal enough to the Commonwealth/Alliance to allow for a mixed regiment worth of top notch troops, and indeed they do volunteer (!) to be put under LAAF command when the WoB attacks, but when in doubt the DSPF is independent.


I never heard of Industrieschutz-Staffeln before. Sounds cool. Where can I find more info?
Basically what CVB said. In German there is a bit more but we still need a good, solid PhD-thesis on the subject. You'd be surprised how many aspects of German WW2 military history are woefully understudied. (Having a PhD in ancient history I perfectly understand this problem, considering in my field most sources have been studied for 200 years and we still find understudied aspects ...)


Don't all arms manufacturer have a form of Security force?
I would think so, and they are usually equipped with whatever the company produces (plus necessaries). It is also mentioned in the Objective Raid-series:

"many companies have developed a standard procedure to have their own permanently stationed corporate force on site to add another layer of defense against raids and invasions. [...] Unlike front-line, home guard, or planetary militia forces, corporate security rarely shifts away from the site it is charged with defending, nor are they typically bound to any command outside of the company’s officers. This makes corporate forces often among the most independent-minded in the Inner Sphere, even more so in the industrial friendly Lyran Alliance."

RifleMech

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Re: IS Police Forces?
« Reply #112 on: 30 July 2021, 02:11:20 »
(snip)

If they had been anything other than a corporate security force, Goree would have been court-martialled. Instead he was invited to talks and a compromise was found, much to the dismay of Brewer. The DSPF has one master, the Defiance corporation. Defiance is loyal enough to the Commonwealth/Alliance to allow for a mixed regiment worth of top notch troops, and indeed they do volunteer (!) to be put under LAAF command when the WoB attacks, but when in doubt the DSPF is independent.

Very cool. Thanks.  :thumbsup:
I'm still not sure what kind of troops they are. Their origins, they work for the LAAF, they answer to their pay masters. It's rather confusing. If they are corporate security, they get away with the heavy equipment because of how important the factories are.

What's? ibid., p.32.


Quote
Basically what CVB said. In German there is a bit more but we still need a good, solid PhD-thesis on the subject. You'd be surprised how many aspects of German WW2 military history are woefully understudied. (Having a PhD in ancient history I perfectly understand this problem, considering in my field most sources have been studied for 200 years and we still find understudied aspects ...)

I know there's a whole lot of history that is understudied and a whole lot that is misunderstood. It's a shame really. What's worse is that we keep loosing history.



Quote
I would think so, and they are usually equipped with whatever the company produces (plus necessaries). It is also mentioned in the Objective Raid-series:

"many companies have developed a standard procedure to have their own permanently stationed corporate force on site to add another layer of defense against raids and invasions. [...] Unlike front-line, home guard, or planetary militia forces, corporate security rarely shifts away from the site it is charged with defending, nor are they typically bound to any command outside of the company’s officers. This makes corporate forces often among the most independent-minded in the Inner Sphere, even more so in the industrial friendly Lyran Alliance."


I believe that's part of the reason why Security Mechs are so limited though. They're not supposed to compete with the Military. Corporate Security Forces are supposed to stop any raiders that get past the planet's defense forces. Not be the main defense force. That's why Mercs get protection contracts. Because Mercs don't have the limitations security forces do.

 

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