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Author Topic: Stone's war on private military forces  (Read 2602 times)

Decoy

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Re: Stone's war on private military forces
« Reply #30 on: 08 June 2022, 15:27:26 »
. . . Stone did it . . .

Book and page number please. I was under the impression that someone else did it for him in a situation that was not suitable for the Republic's long term survival.

Liam's Ghost

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Re: Stone's war on private military forces
« Reply #31 on: 08 June 2022, 15:44:43 »
It was established that it was one of Stone's plans, but he was a bit too frozen to have directly initiated it.

Whoever actually did it will probably never be confirmed, and even it it was, it would probably not be a satisfying answer. The who and why needed to be a coherent plot from the beginning gradually building up to the reveal, with indications of how someone who had the resources to pull this massive sphere wide operation off (including coordinated attacks across the inner sphere against HPGs that didn't go down) was actually benefiting from it. There needed to be a sign of people actually moving and in a position to take advantage of it. There needed to be an endgame to all of this.

Instead, it was just a thing that happened. There was no endgame, there was no point.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Stone's war on private military forces
« Reply #32 on: 08 June 2022, 16:29:43 »
Book and page number please. I was under the impression that someone else did it for him in a situation that was not suitable for the Republic's long term survival.

His internal monologues in the Rock of the Republic, he set everything in motion though he did not expect a collapse that quickly IIRC.  But the plan was for all of humanity to be plunged into chaos, the wars to smash everyone back to bedrock and discredit the current governments so that someone could pick up the pieces.  He went to sleep so he could return like someone from Avalon to lead the saving forces of the Republic in restoring peace & order (emphasis on latter, or his interpretation anyway) to all of human space.

But a further strike against Wolfnet . . . it is not as powerful as it once was, and the Dragoons were slowly rebuilding strength on the Falcon border (per Redemption Rift)- though how is curious, as they were raiding the Falcons for materials including Overlord Cs.
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glitterboy2098

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Re: Stone's war on private military forces
« Reply #33 on: 08 June 2022, 23:09:57 »
His internal monologues in the Rock of the Republic, he set everything in motion though he did not expect a collapse that quickly IIRC.  But the plan was for all of humanity to be plunged into chaos, the wars to smash everyone back to bedrock and discredit the current governments so that someone could pick up the pieces.  He went to sleep so he could return like someone from Avalon to lead the saving forces of the Republic in restoring peace & order (emphasis on latter, or his interpretation anyway) to all of human space.

basically he was trying to speed run Conrad Toyama's Comstar plan for taking control of the entire inner sphere.

BrianDavion

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Re: Stone's war on private military forces
« Reply #34 on: 09 June 2022, 02:24:58 »
basically he was trying to speed run Conrad Toyama's Comstar plan for taking control of the entire inner sphere.

jesus how many times does comstar need to learn thats a bad idea?!

Metallgewitter

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Re: Stone's war on private military forces
« Reply #35 on: 09 June 2022, 03:08:48 »
His internal monologues in the Rock of the Republic, he set everything in motion though he did not expect a collapse that quickly IIRC.  But the plan was for all of humanity to be plunged into chaos, the wars to smash everyone back to bedrock and discredit the current governments so that someone could pick up the pieces.  He went to sleep so he could return like someone from Avalon to lead the saving forces of the Republic in restoring peace & order (emphasis on latter, or his interpretation anyway) to all of human space.


To me it sounded more like Stone was testing the IS (or perhaps only the Republic) if they can keep the peace / exist without him. After all he was getting old and as you have stated before he had built a cult of personality around him. Of course wrecking the entire IS just to prove that you are not needed isn't exactly clever to put it mildly.
Of course this would also mean he ignored the secret subversion that the Republic Senate started within his own ranks of Knights and even Paladins (Gareth sinclair though he turned out to be a loyal follower of Stone's ideas).

Lord Harlock

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Re: Stone's war on private military forces
« Reply #36 on: 09 June 2022, 10:35:17 »
His internal monologues in the Rock of the Republic, he set everything in motion though he did not expect a collapse that quickly IIRC.  But the plan was for all of humanity to be plunged into chaos, the wars to smash everyone back to bedrock and discredit the current governments so that someone could pick up the pieces.  He went to sleep so he could return like someone from Avalon to lead the saving forces of the Republic in restoring peace & order (emphasis on latter, or his interpretation anyway) to all of human space.


And that is why I hate Old Devlin Stone. It’s not that he had a better system, nope. He had to manipulate events, people, institutions, and economies to make people believe that he was an angel. He got what he deserved.


jesus how many times does comstar need to learn thats a bad idea?!

Stone’s outcome makes me believe he was basically a really long time WoB Counter Faction to the Sixth of June plant. His plans make no sense unless he was basically made to destroy the Sixth of June and then eventually the other WoB faction comes in and destroys him. Even freezing himself makes sense if he was suppose be there when the Word returns, and the return date got pushed back. So the janitor just plants the new return date with the preprogrammed command words in Stone, and then suddenly he really needs to freeze himself to see his utopia. Yeah the spanner in this was being woken up early by Tucker Harrell, so the programming just kicked in when he woke up to sabotage any defenses slightly in line with the Word of Blake return plan.

Metallgewitter

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Re: Stone's war on private military forces
« Reply #37 on: 09 June 2022, 12:15:40 »
Yeah the spanner in this was being woken up early by Tucker Harrell, so the programming just kicked in when he woke up to sabotage any defenses slightly in line with the Word of Blake return plan.

Ok now I imagine the revived WoB appearing above Terra only to be shot down screaming "Why is this happening againnnnnnnnn"

And I think Stone wasn't the one who wanted to abolish mercenaries or better to say the mercenary trade (the Republic absorbed several mercenaries like the Star Seeds and the Nortwind Highlanders). Those idea (and many others) came from David Lear. Every time I read the source books I get the impression that Stone was basically the figure head while David pulled the strings.

BrianDavion

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Re: Stone's war on private military forces
« Reply #38 on: 11 June 2022, 00:31:17 »
Ok now I imagine the revived WoB appearing above Terra only to be shot down screaming "Why is this happening againnnnnnnnn"

And I think Stone wasn't the one who wanted to abolish mercenaries or better to say the mercenary trade (the Republic absorbed several mercenaries like the Star Seeds and the Nortwind Highlanders). Those idea (and many others) came from David Lear. Every time I read the source books I get the impression that Stone was basically the figure head while David pulled the strings.

That'd explain some things.. IT'S ALL THE CRAZY LIAOS' FAULT! :)

Templar87

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Re: Stone's war on private military forces
« Reply #39 on: 11 June 2022, 01:24:42 »
His internal monologues in the Rock of the Republic, he set everything in motion though he did not expect a collapse that quickly IIRC.  But the plan was for all of humanity to be plunged into chaos, the wars to smash everyone back to bedrock and discredit the current governments so that someone could pick up the pieces.  He went to sleep so he could return like someone from Avalon to lead the saving forces of the Republic in restoring peace & order (emphasis on latter, or his interpretation anyway) to all of human space.


Except that's explicitly contrary to the short story fronting FM 3145, where Stone absolutely was not expecting any such thing and is genuinely shocked when Tucker tells him about the Blackout.
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Liam's Ghost

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Re: Stone's war on private military forces
« Reply #40 on: 11 June 2022, 02:23:40 »
Except that's explicitly contrary to the short story fronting FM 3145, where Stone absolutely was not expecting any such thing and is genuinely shocked when Tucker tells him about the Blackout.

*Opens mouth.*
*Closes it again before it gets him into trouble.*

Well, in fairness to Stone, he wasn't in his right mind in either case.

For that matter, he almost certainly wasn't in his right mind when he froze himself.

The problem I have with Stone being the culprit is that the Republic was by far the worst hit by the affects of the blackout (since, you know, it died as a direct result), and it's clear that nobody in the Republic had any plan for either that or what would come after.

It suggests that Stone was just so senile that he never considered that they might actually need to prepare for the collapse of interstellar society and their planned takeover of the entire inner sphere.

And "Stone is just that dumb" is as painfully unsatisfying as "Comstar made and oopsie".
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Colt Ward

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Re: Stone's war on private military forces
« Reply #41 on: 11 June 2022, 09:06:42 »

Except that's explicitly contrary to the short story fronting FM 3145, where Stone absolutely was not expecting any such thing and is genuinely shocked when Tucker tells him about the Blackout.

Nicest thing I can say is check your dates & development teams.

And this is ranging pretty far afield into another re-hash of other topics.  This is not about post-Black Out but rather the foundation of the Republic and through it's era with the attitude of that government to mercenaries.

My contention was that besides being passive-aggressive to the industry, there is also a good chance the Republic would have acted covertly to keep kneecap'ing commands at least those that operated off of Galatea.  Maybe other places if they did work through the MRBC- like Arc Royal & Solaris VII hiring halls.
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SlightlyIrritatedCat

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Re: Stone's war on private military forces
« Reply #42 on: 13 June 2022, 03:12:13 »
Absolutely, you can see from what they did that the Republic was never more than a more subtle revision of "Blake's Will" or the Star League or the Alliance.  Just another way for Terra to do its best to control everything as much as it could.  It's one of the reasons I tend to ignore the Jihad period and everything after it, cause I literally do not believe that Terra would have escaped the Jihad period without being rendered uninhabitable if not for PTB fiat. 

It's also why I tend to lean hard on that most sourcebooks are explicitly in-universe resources and not completely accurate or trustworthy.  The Republic does it's best to lean on mercenaries and hinder them?  Great for them, but their reach is finite, mercs would have simply stopped using resources controlled by the Repubic once it became clear the power was hostile.  So the sourcebook can be accurate regarding what goes on in Republic space, cause it's from a Republic source and they know what's happening inside their own territory.  But that doesn't mean it's accurate about what's happening outside their borders, the records of Hiring Halls on Solaris and Galatea or MRBC records might as well be fiction.  They'll stay outside the Republic's borders to avoid its hostile laws, they'll shift to other sources of contracts outside the main Hiring Halls and MRBC.  After all with a lot of mercs being former House military, they all have built in contacts that don't need those organizations. 

Colt Ward

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Re: Stone's war on private military forces
« Reply #43 on: 13 June 2022, 09:49:27 »
Thing is after the Jihad where do mercs go?

Outreach is effectively gone and in addition the Republic limits mercs to a single world in their space- Galatea.  Which also means Outreach and Fletcher, once merc worlds, are written off.  Cappies shut theirs down so Westerhand is out.  Astrokaszy was already a marginal place and NOT somewhere top tier units go, then was taken into a League proto-state.  This leaves Herotitus, Solaris VII, and Arc Royal as major mercenary hiring worlds . . . IMO Kendall is as well since it is the home of the Protectors for quite a while, but it has never been 'official.'

Further, the MRBC is the 'official' mercenary outlet, and IF they are penetrated by the Republic then even any MRBC agreements reached on Solaris VII or Arc Royal that are entered in their database could be subject to Republic scrutiny.  And while WE might know things are crooked, it is going to take years for merc commanders let alone the average merc to realize the RAF does not meet their ideals after the Jihad ends.  History has plenty of examples of leaders coasting on the goodwill of their actions in a war.
 Look, pre-Dragoons plenty of mercs distrusted ComStar and their MRC . . . it was just the best option in town.
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SlightlyIrritatedCat

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Re: Stone's war on private military forces
« Reply #44 on: 13 June 2022, 18:58:07 »
Thing is after the Jihad where do mercs go?
Literally anywhere.  They don't need hiring halls, they don't need MRBC, all they need is somebody with cash that needs military force on call outside official military chains of command.  Look at the thriving market for "private security solutions" that exists in the current world.  You just need a source of demand, a web of contacts, and the ability to fulfill that demand somewhere.  Very quickly the prospective suppliers will find the source of demand and deals will be made. 

Colt Ward

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Re: Stone's war on private military forces
« Reply #45 on: 13 June 2022, 22:14:44 »
The reason hiring halls exist is they form a nexus for the trade- getting contracts, finding recruits, buying gear, repairing gear, and offering R&R.  Now, not every unit actually makes that trek all the way back, but they do have someone on planet making arrangements.

IRL PMCs still have recruiting drives, training facilities, and bluntly PR/lobbying offices near gov't.

The MRBC is also the host of 'Mercs Wanted' ad bulletin boards.
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Metallgewitter

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Re: Stone's war on private military forces
« Reply #46 on: 14 June 2022, 03:12:27 »
Thing is after the Jihad where do mercs go?

Outreach is effectively gone and in addition the Republic limits mercs to a single world in their space- Galatea.  Which also means Outreach and Fletcher, once merc worlds, are written off.  Cappies shut theirs down so Westerhand is out.  Astrokaszy was already a marginal place and NOT somewhere top tier units go, then was taken into a League proto-state.  This leaves Herotitus, Solaris VII, and Arc Royal as major mercenary hiring worlds . . . IMO Kendall is as well since it is the home of the Protectors for quite a while, but it has never been 'official.'

I think the only realm that actually opened itself to Mercenaries were the suns. FM 3085 stated that several capital worlds opened Merc halls to screen those that are looking for work. As an example the 21st Centauri Lancers landed on Robinson and after emerging from their Dropship they were given a contract. Then again the suns treated their mercenary unit fairly which gave them a leg up in hiring units. Just look at Delilah's Gauntlet a unit that worked with the Blakies then against them and now part of the Suns ToE.
And perhaps one might still count Noisiel as a mercenary world but probbaly very minor after the Jihad.

Colt Ward

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Re: Stone's war on private military forces
« Reply #47 on: 14 June 2022, 08:41:48 »
Nosiel halted the games afaik and never started everything back up.
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Metallgewitter

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Re: Stone's war on private military forces
« Reply #48 on: 14 June 2022, 09:34:30 »
Nosiel halted the games afaik and never started everything back up.

Really? I thought I read that Nosiel started their games again but it wasn't at the pre-level Jihad. Though you might be right and the hiring of mercnearies was never resumed on that world

tassa_kay

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Re: Stone's war on private military forces
« Reply #49 on: 23 September 2022, 11:23:09 »
While I tend to write off everything from the FedCom civil war onward as badly written in-universe equivalent of Game of Thrones

As opposed to all the badly-written stuff that came before?  ;D
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BrianDavion

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Re: Stone's war on private military forces
« Reply #50 on: 23 September 2022, 17:06:13 »
As opposed to all the badly-written stuff that came before?  ;D

I wonder if he realizes the FCCW was written by FASA :)

 

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