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Author Topic: The original plan for Operation SILVER SHIELD succeeds?  (Read 2728 times)

Terminax

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Re: The original plan for Operation SILVER SHIELD succeeds?
« Reply #30 on: 17 August 2022, 11:19:52 »
What about the hidden five? At Odessa, they had more warships there that in a revisionist scenario could be activated like they were when the Word of Blake tapped it

2ndAcr

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Re: The original plan for Operation SILVER SHIELD succeeds?
« Reply #31 on: 17 August 2022, 14:10:38 »
Well you also have this:

Orbiting a red dwarf star, the Ross 248 Fleet Yards was a sizable and virtually impregnable space station buried within a metallic asteroid five kilometers in diameter. Located outside the system's small proximity limit, JumpShips and WarShips could arrive conveniently close to the facility.

 It could easily be the equal of Odessa. If you take the 22 ships that were former SLDF, there are also 3 Naga orbiting in the Terra system also. Figure another 3-4 at Odessa, I cannot remember the exact count found there at the moment. Four years, they could return say 3/4 to service. Maybe even all of them. Depends on what sort of damage you give them that needs to be repaired. Their Potemkin, well she probably needs a new core or Kerensky was being overly generous to Hayes. That is your call.

Takiro

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Re: The original plan for Operation SILVER SHIELD succeeds?
« Reply #32 on: 17 August 2022, 16:59:26 »
Ross and Luyten would be potential secret fleet repair sites for a clandestine ComStar naval build up prior to Silver Shield as could the Ruins of Gabriel. Said effort would be slow accounting for damage done during the Coup, operational security, and lack of plentiful materials. Plus, each of these facilities would require some kind of protection lest a Great House discover one of them accidentally. Plus, I am thinking you'd have to reinforce Terra quickly with assets to discourage adventurism by the Successor States who still might have agents in system and try to take advantage of any opportunity. I'd like to have at least two warships on station at each jump point which could mean as a much as an eight-ship commitment. Follow on assaults for an expanded Silver Shield could require at least a ship a taskforce which in my opinion could be as many as 12 warships. So, 20 ships would be ideal but rather hard to believe given the pre-existing conditions and short 4-year time period ComStar would have. I suppose we could say many vessels are barely operational and repaired just enough to bluff the Houses into believing Blake has more which fits this entire audacious enterprise.

mikecj

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Re: The original plan for Operation SILVER SHIELD succeeds?
« Reply #33 on: 17 August 2022, 17:08:42 »
Ross and Luyten would be potential secret fleet repair sites for a clandestine ComStar naval build up prior to Silver Shield as could the Ruins of Gabriel. Said effort would be slow accounting for damage done during the Coup, operational security, and lack of plentiful materials. Plus, each of these facilities would require some kind of protection lest a Great House discover one of them accidentally. Plus, I am thinking you'd have to reinforce Terra quickly with assets to discourage adventurism by the Successor States who still might have agents in system and try to take advantage of any opportunity. I'd like to have at least two warships on station at each jump point which could mean as a much as an eight-ship commitment. Follow on assaults for an expanded Silver Shield could require at least a ship a taskforce which in my opinion could be as many as 12 warships. So, 20 ships would be ideal but rather hard to believe given the pre-existing conditions and short 4-year time period ComStar would have. I suppose we could say many vessels are barely operational and repaired just enough to bluff the Houses into believing Blake has more which fits this entire audacious enterprise.

Probably need a balanced task force if they can.  The Houses were sending 3-4 ship battlegroups to some objectives.  1st Succession War p 48.  has a Tharkad, 2 x Commonwealth's, and an Aegis when they hit Dieron.


Corrected.  Ironwood was an Aegis not a destroyer.
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Metallgewitter

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Re: The original plan for Operation SILVER SHIELD succeeds?
« Reply #34 on: 18 August 2022, 01:24:02 »
While you are talking about defending Terra there is one thing that could wreak havoc with defense plans: the insane amount of debris from the space battle over Terra. Just from the top of my head: 10 destroyed Pavise battle stations, nearly 300 destroyed Caspar M5 drones plus an uncounted number of destroyed SLDF Warships and countless dropships, fighters and battle sats plus the already seeded jumppoints (the so called caltrop trap set up by Amaris). Sure Blake started cleaning the space around Terra but it would take years. Imagine having to fight in this kind of battlefield just after you have launched Silver Shield. Could of course also add protextion as your opponents might not know what to expect and then jump right into a nice chunk of debris

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Re: The original plan for Operation SILVER SHIELD succeeds?
« Reply #35 on: 18 August 2022, 04:45:35 »
While advantageous to a degree that highlights why building a warship fleet is just such a tall order in this time frame. Wreaked everything, transportation difficulty, economic devastation, clean up efforts, etc. However, I suppose there would be sufficient hulks left to restore.

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Re: The original plan for Operation SILVER SHIELD succeeds?
« Reply #36 on: 18 August 2022, 14:08:03 »
Let's shift focus with the help of a visual aid I've researched (thank you Op Liberation II, the 1st Succession War SB, the original SLSB, and numerous other sources, etc..) to show you what is left of the Terran Hegemony prior to Operation Silver Shield. I'm focused on writing a state of the Hegemony (cliff notes it's bad) circa 2788 which will in universe be a plea from a high ranking Terran for Blake to do something (help me Obi Wan, your my only hope). Comments are welcomed but act fact or there may not be anything left of the poor Hegemony.

Metallgewitter

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Re: The original plan for Operation SILVER SHIELD succeeds?
« Reply #37 on: 19 August 2022, 03:21:58 »
Interesting map I have to say. In this case a full Silver Shield is basically unfeasable as the Houses have already cut of parts of the old Hegemony. And while space travel with it's jumpships make borders an ilusion supporting some systems is not exactly risk free. Which goes back to my original point: securing a small circle of worlds around Terra might still be possible but would need more forces (especially Warships) to protect them. And as always rebuilding said worlds will cost more money then Comstar would have available at that point. I think Comstar didn't turn a profit until the early 2800's (someone might correct me on that) and adding devastetd planets to that might hamper their income further. Of course those planets would also add more revenue but in the short term it would prove devastating.

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Re: The original plan for Operation SILVER SHIELD succeeds?
« Reply #38 on: 19 August 2022, 05:06:38 »
Tis a crude illustration of the challenging scenario facing us in this thread. Kerensky took most every jumpship with him as well so not only is warship support for this op almost nonexistent, but I'd have to conclude that ComStar's interstellar lift capability is thin too which could cause logistical problems following the assaults. However, I think it could be done but as you note the illusory nature of 'risk free' here. While the planets in the Terran gold region still nominal are part of the Terran Hegemony there are agents of the Great Houses present on likely every single one. From small contingents of troops (see Terra for a Davion company) providing relief support to the devastated worlds in the region to political and intelligence operatives either aiming at seducing remaining Terran worlds into their sphere of influence or monitor the growth of their enemy's influence there is at least a presence of one Successor State on every planet at this time. Your only benefit here is they don't know ComStar is even considering an action yet and can accurately glean info as a background player plus links to the remaining Hegemony state apparatus could assist. Still, it a monstrous task.

Metallgewitter

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Re: The original plan for Operation SILVER SHIELD succeeds?
« Reply #39 on: 19 August 2022, 05:33:15 »
Well Silver Shield as it happened was basically a shock and awe strike. Comstar forces descended on Terra and quickly wiped out the House forces on Terra  as well as all SLDf forces opposed to them and the Houses didn't react as they believed Blake's bluff in regards to military strength. If you could do that for a couple of worlds while at the same time projecting more force then you actually have while also preventing HPG and other news circulating from those worlds there might be window. In essence you would have to repeat Operation Apotheosis on a smaller scale. As for Warships in general, the SLDF left 12 combat ready Warships in Comstar's possesion. Add to that possible Naval caches filled with older Warships it might look better though those must be reactivated first. And of course adding more Jumpships to it. On the plus side at that point thew Titan Naval yards were running at full capacity (Blake mothballed them after Silver Shield) so maybe a lack of Jumpships might be shortlived.

Croix129

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Re: The original plan for Operation SILVER SHIELD succeeds?
« Reply #40 on: 21 August 2022, 12:50:39 »
First, to the map, I never really proposed that the full Hegemony could be saved. At most, the Alliance core province, but even then that was the maximum. Though going back through Liberation of Terra vol 2, 77 hegemony world were de-facto ruled by the Great houses by operation Exodus, leaving around 18 worlds )assuming the 95 worlds of the hegemony on the Wiki is accurate) that ComStar could grab. More and more, I'm thinking that ComStar could take First circuit worlds of the HPG network (New Earth, Barnard, Alpha C, Bryant, Procyon, and Dieron), along with maybe a few worlds close to them. ComStar could likely justify control of the Hegemony's A clsss HPG hubs as necessary to maintain the network, and a few other worlds as a buffer. So 7 to maybe 13 worlds. I think that's a modest, manageable proposal.

As to the lack of military forces. Yeah that's a harder one to get around. Blake basically used nearly everything he had to take Terra, then bluffed that he had more and the Great houses were forced to back down. Well that and even the Houses recolonized what could happen if the HPG network was considered as acceptable targets in the coming war.So ComStar would need more troops and ships to bluff the Houses on a larger scale.

The only things I can thing of are that more SLDF forces (perhaps drawn from the Royal Divisions, the traditionally Hegemony soldiers) refuse to join the Exodus and stay behind with Blake and that that causes Kerensky to leave some more warships for Blake. Maybe istead of 12% of the SLDF remaining with ComStar, its more like 19%. That, or as someone suggested, ComStar manages to restore some of the mothballed/damaged/wrecked warships in Terra and other battlesites (which would mean an earlier planning of Silver Shield, like say 2783 or so).

mikecj

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Re: The original plan for Operation SILVER SHIELD succeeds?
« Reply #41 on: 21 August 2022, 13:08:26 »
Or some of the Rim Worlds POWs join Blake, giving him additional battle-hardened troops.
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2ndAcr

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Re: The original plan for Operation SILVER SHIELD succeeds?
« Reply #42 on: 21 August 2022, 13:32:37 »
 Maybe check the list of disbanded commands from 2784. That is a long damned list. Lots of SLDF commands were disbanded in 2784. Maybe Blake recruits heavily from them, if you pick Royal commands only, the list gets smaller, but maybe they want to stay as part of the Hegemony.

 Go thru the FWL and Word of Blake naval assets, a bunch of those are recovered SLDF ships, maybe Comstar goes on a major recovery effort to find them and bring them home. Or the SLDF does before the Exodus, then determines them to be not of value on the Exodus itself.

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Re: The original plan for Operation SILVER SHIELD succeeds?
« Reply #43 on: 21 August 2022, 13:35:52 »
and the pre-ComGuards just ain't that big.

 You'd have to augment your existing forces which is doable but puts Blake up against Hayes as the most powerful person in ComStar as the enhanced military would have more say IMO. That could change ComStar itself in the years to come as Schwepps, not Toyama, likely rises to power afterwards. So, you need what is left of the SLDF under Hayes to seize what you could and then drop a small interdiction over the Protectorate insuring your control before anyone else can object. Far tricker than just holding one star system


1.  Pre-CG was still PRETTY big, not many houses at that time could claim 17 SLDF Divisions & 10 Independent Mech Regiments, IIRC.

2.  That said, yeah, at best he would maybe be able to grab something like the Terran Province?  Equal to District 10 of the RotS?  The starting WoB Protectorate area?
If you limit yourself to systems that are 1 Jump from Terra, then, maybe, MAYBE, you can hold onto that, but mostly I agree w/ you that if you spread yourself too thin, then your likely going to loose worlds to the advancing houses.


By claiming just Terra he had some of the best area since it was the most repaired of all the TH in the years before the exodus & was home to MANY manufacturing centers & consolidating even just 1/2 his military there & the ships he was gifted &/or salvaged means that is one hell of a touch nut to crack all while under threat of interdiction.
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Takiro

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Re: The original plan for Operation SILVER SHIELD succeeds?
« Reply #44 on: 21 August 2022, 22:18:22 »
As for Warships in general, the SLDF left 12 combat ready Warships in Comstar's possession.

Is that a canon citation or your opinion Metallgewitter? Just curious for this scenario's detailing.

Add to that possible Naval caches filled with older Warships it might look better though those must be reactivated first. And of course, adding more Jumpships to it. On the plus side at that point thew Titan Naval yards were running at full capacity (Blake mothballed them after Silver Shield) so maybe a lack of Jumpships might be shortlived.

There could be cached warships left by the SLDF that were unable to be sold or partake in the Exodus but these likely suffered significant damage. I contend the Titan Yards are a poor source for warships at this time given observation by agents of the Great Houses. They'd likely focus on Jumpship construction nominally aimed at bolstering ComStar operations. This wouldn't arouse suspicions as the damaged HPG network would need reinforcing as would other postal services. Hence, lifting protectionist forces into nearby worlds is very possible. Luyten and Ross would be the best source of warships if any that ComStar has as both are secret in large part.

First, to the map, I never really proposed that the full Hegemony could be saved. At most, the Alliance core province, but even then that was the maximum. Though going back through Liberation of Terra vol 2, 77 hegemony world were de-facto ruled by the Great houses by operation Exodus, leaving around 18 worlds )assuming the 95 worlds of the hegemony on the Wiki is accurate) that ComStar could grab. More and more, I'm thinking that ComStar could take First circuit worlds of the HPG network (New Earth, Barnard, Alpha C, Bryant, Procyon, and Dieron), along with maybe a few worlds close to them. ComStar could likely justify control of the Hegemony's A clsss HPG hubs as necessary to maintain the network, and a few other worlds as a buffer. So 7 to maybe 13 worlds. I think that's a modest, manageable proposal.

As to the lack of military forces. Yeah that's a harder one to get around. Blake basically used nearly everything he had to take Terra, then bluffed that he had more and the Great houses were forced to back down. Well that and even the Houses recolonized what could happen if the HPG network was considered as acceptable targets in the coming war.So ComStar would need more troops and ships to bluff the Houses on a larger scale.

The only things I can thing of are that more SLDF forces (perhaps drawn from the Royal Divisions, the traditionally Hegemony soldiers) refuse to join the Exodus and stay behind with Blake and that that causes Kerensky to leave some more warships for Blake. Maybe istead of 12% of the SLDF remaining with ComStar, its more like 19%. That, or as someone suggested, ComStar manages to restore some of the mothballed/damaged/wrecked warships in Terra and other battlesites (which would mean an earlier planning of Silver Shield, like say 2783 or so).

My map was just meant to demonstrate what was left of the Hegemony in 2788 and give us an idea what is feasible. IMO ComStar can not directly engage a Successor State military in force as part of this operation and has to work around what is there saving what it can. The First Circuit worlds (New Earth, Caph, Rigel Kent, Bryant, Procyon, and Dieron) are certainly priorities but as you can see 2 out of 6 (1/3) already have major House contingents either in control (Dieron) or fighting over it (Caph). So, I had to cut those from my objectives. Next up is worlds with a jump of Terra and there too you had some with significant presence negating possible moves. Ultimately and I have more to detail my most ambitious operation went for two dozen worlds. Map included for your input.

Hellraiser

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Re: The original plan for Operation SILVER SHIELD succeeds?
« Reply #45 on: 22 August 2022, 00:56:43 »
Off the top of my head there are a few worlds that might make sense outside of Terra but w/o being that entire map.

Major factories were located on Keid, Thorin, New Earth, Carver-IV, Oliver, & Graham-IV

Most of those are w/in a single Jump from Terra.

It would still be risky to spread out that much as I mentioned above.

But you could in theory go for a small province sized area.

The issue I see is that w/o major recruiting your only looking at a few regiments per world & the houses could push hard enough to take those out.

A Hundred+ regiments on Terra is one thing.  Under a dozen mixed mech/infantry isn't going to hold off a major houe assault.
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Metallgewitter

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Re: The original plan for Operation SILVER SHIELD succeeds?
« Reply #46 on: 22 August 2022, 03:55:28 »
Is that a canon citation or your opinion Metallgewitter? Just curious for this scenario's detailing.

That is from the Liberation of Terra sorucebook. On one of the last pages there is a table shown what happened to SLDF divisions / regiments / Warships that survived the Star League civil war. 12 Warships joined Comstar. I assume that those are combat ready Warships that just need regular maintenance. And compare that with the navy Comstar commanded during Operation Bulldog (over 30 ships I think and all had a working HPG). Comstar reactivated several ships and even constructed a handful of new Ships (the Aar class frigates). And those weren't even all as the Word of Blake pulled even more ships out of mothballs (for example the lone Farragut and McKenna in their ranks)

Just flipped through the Liberation of Terra book and realized that Silver Shield was launched after the Sucession War had already started. So in this case Comstar might have pulled it of as the other houses are already engaged in war against each other. Who would want to pull forces from fronts just to combat another foe? Just a reminder a SLDF divison is not a Comstar divison. A SLDF divison are 3 brigades and a brigade consists of 3 regiments. So a full Battlemech divison are 6 regiments of Mechs and 3 regiments of Mechanized infantry regiments. And Comstar had 8 divisons ready while having also material for that many again. If they can at least disuade 2-3 Houses from attacking them they might stand a chance. Plus let's not forget at the time they launch Silver Shield Blake had negotiated that Comstar's territory be respected as neutral ground. And if the Houses don'T listen shut down the HPG network for good. Have fun coordinate any attack (or even supply said forces) then (and let's not forget the economy which relies on instantenous communication)

CVB

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Re: The original plan for Operation SILVER SHIELD succeeds?
« Reply #47 on: 22 August 2022, 13:50:18 »
Or, if C* wants to get really devious, don't impose a complete blackout against a house, but transmit or block selected messages, with a lot of falsified transmissions thrown in the mix. So for example, your first invasion waves jump, but the reinforcements never arrive, while important defences withdraw unexpectedly and other brigades get proof that their partners are actually traitors...
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Takiro

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Re: The original plan for Operation SILVER SHIELD succeeds?
« Reply #48 on: 22 August 2022, 14:05:30 »
Great citation Metallgewitter! I missed this table contained in CAT35233. Historical Liberation of Terra II (page 114) which should be where the story of ComStar’s initial military formation begins, here are the numbers of SLDF left by Kerensky to Blake;

6 BattleMech Divisions (= 36 BattleMech regiments)
11 Infantry Divisions (= 33 BattleMech regiments)
16 Independent Regiments (= 16 BattleMech regiments)
12 Warships

So, in November 2784 the remnants of the SLDF pledged to protect the Department of Communications possessed a strength of 85 BattleMech regiments and 12 Warships which is quite impressive. Jumping forward to CAT35235. Historical First Succession War and what is presumably the ComStar Expeditionary Forces (CSEF) [my name based on the Divisions listed therein] circa March 2788 before Silver Shield is approved shows a much smaller force, see below.

1st Division (SLDF 151st RBMD) [6 ‘Mech regiments]
2nd Division (SLDF 231st BMD) [6 ‘Mech regiments]
3rd Division (SLDF 197th MID) [3 ‘Mech regiments]
4th Division (SLDF 184th MID) [3 ‘Mech regiments]
5th Division (SLDF 13th RID) [3 ‘Mech regiments]
6th Division (SLDF 326th BMD) [6 ‘Mech regiments]
7th Division (SLDF 287th BMD) [6 ‘Mech regiments]
8th Division (SLDF 4 Ind Reg) [4 ‘Mech regiments]

Now this doesn’t count the Terran opposition (SLDF 79th MID and 123rd MID = 6 ‘Mech Regiments) faced during the canon operation which would have 43 ‘Mech regiments (37 ComStar Loyalists plus 6 Rebels) on Terra circa June 2788. That is a drop of 42 ‘Mech regiments in less than 4 years but does make sense to me. If you look at my old fanon Field Manual – Terran Republic 2785 I contend that the SLDF is an old force (personnel wise) that desperately needs (younger) replacement (nearly 13 years from the start of the Amaris Coup to the liberation of Terra is a long time without normal recruitment). Given their age and perhaps some growing discontent (departure of Kerensky, the flagging state of the Hegemony, start of the Succession War, Blake’s new direction) a wave of retirements during this time would not be surprising. I’d expect Blake and Hayes to also consolidate loyal commands and isolate potential problems accounting for the conflict that erupts in South America. I’d also expect the same strategy to be applied to the Navy as well.

This gives the CSEF a reserve of 42 ‘Mech regiments (at least equipment wise) from which they can draw upon to rapidly restore any damaged units during the conquest of Terra which is a lot more than I was expecting. Plus, this doesn’t account for other forces (Terran regional powers, mercenaries, friendly militia, etc.) which may be available that could help an expanded Silver Shield. How does this look to you guys for available military forces?

Or, if C* wants to get really devious, don't impose a complete blackout against a house, but transmit or block selected messages, with a lot of falsified transmissions thrown in the mix. So for example, your first invasion waves jump, but the reinforcements never arrive, while important defences withdraw unexpectedly and other brigades get proof that their partners are actually traitors...

Devious, but I don't think that reflects well on a newborn organization trying to appear neutral to all parties. That is a core principle that a very young ComStar under Blake will not abandon. However, if we are a go with this larger operation (two dozen star systems largely with the old Alliance Core or the Terran Province of the Hegemony) do you think the Successor Lords will tolerate a month-long communications blackout as opposed to just the three-day canon one? I think we are going to need a longer window of opportunity in which to conduct these operations without opposition as opposed to just seizing Terra.

2ndAcr

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Re: The original plan for Operation SILVER SHIELD succeeds?
« Reply #49 on: 22 August 2022, 15:50:01 »
 If you get Kerensky to leave behind a Newgrange (who says he didn't) then Comstar can salvage ships that the WOB and FWL snagged later down the road. Comstar raids Odessa and recovers 3-4 right there and uses Odessa to repair them. The Mckenna, well that is way down the road since it is former Wolverine and the Clans don't even exist yet.

 Comstar can IMO snag Terra and an additional 6-8 worlds and more than likely hold them. If they go Terran Hegemony, then maybe some former SLDF mercs come home. That could quickly add several Divisions worth of troops and equipment to their overall count. The key is 2784 to 2788 for rebuilding what you can.

 Terra has way more than just the Titan yards, you have:

 Mercator-Campion Shipyards over Jupiter L5 point
 Blue Nose Clipperships over Mars (decommissioned in 1st SW so survived the Liberation)
 Boeing Interstellar (decommissioned in 1st SW so survived the Liberation)
 Krester's Ship Construction (decommissioned in 1st SW so survived the Liberation)
 O'Neil Yards
 
 Krester also had yards over Keid, Terra Firma, Thorin and Yorii which survived the Liberation to be destroyed in 1st SW.
 
 Terra has the capability to both repair and build new warships in addition to building standard Jumpships. So, if you factor in some loss of skilled labor at the yards, possibly a year to bring them all fully back online mechanically, they can still crank them out. Figure start production as 2785, with first 2 Mckenna rolling out in 2787 and next 2 in 2789 (they averaged 2 per year during Star League).

 Lola II or Lola III also built by Blue Nose Clipperships, figure start in 2785/86 probably build 3-4 per year.
 
 Krester builds Kimagure and Texas..........start 2785 at say 2 each per year in 2787
 Di Tron builds Aegis Cruiser and Titan Dropship ........start 2785 at say 2 Aegis and 10 Titan each year
 
 So by 2788 you just added to your fleet:

 2 Texas Battleships
 2 McKenna Battleships
 9 Lola III Destroyers
 4 Kimagure Cruiser
 4 Aegis Cruiser
 30 Titan Dropships

 In addition to whatever the Titan yards, O'Neil yards and Mercator-Campion Shipyards are building. Heck they can crank out standard Jumpships. Those are just the warship builders I listed and focused on. From 2784 to 2788 Comstar has the ability to rebuild quite a bunch of strength. Enough to openly tell a House to pound sand if they object to anything. Especially if that House is already in a fight. The Terran Hegemony can sit back and just build strength and rebuild. By the end of the 1st SW, the Houses are in NO shape to go up against the Hegemony, even a diminished one in overall size from the original.

 Plus the Hegemony is steady collecting mucho money from all the said Houses via Comstar for their HPG use. As long as the Hegemony remains purely neutral, any House is stupid to buck up against them.
 

Metallgewitter

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Re: The original plan for Operation SILVER SHIELD succeeds?
« Reply #50 on: 23 August 2022, 02:36:36 »
Your fleet plan sounds nice but there is just one problem: where do you get the raw materials fore all the parts from? Terra isn't a resource rich planet. And by 2785 the Hegemony is basically dead with several planets that arte rich in minerals already under the thumb of a Successor State. Of course there is the Belt which could also pull double duty for ship construction but would that be enough?

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Re: The original plan for Operation SILVER SHIELD succeeds?
« Reply #51 on: 23 August 2022, 04:43:56 »
Not to mention the economy is shot and a mass Exodus of people is underway from Terra. House agents are everywhere on Terra before Silver Shield as well so any program like this would draw interest and be followed by an assault so they can add it to their military. I think we have to stick to repair only and at secret facilities like Ross and Luyten with significant limitations prior to Silver Shield. Could I see a Newgrange, sure. That would assist repairs and transport of derelicts to those secure areas. I think 20 operational warships is a realistic number given the dozen starting point a mere 4 years ago. Plus, crews might be limited because of the aging number of service personnel that happened with the ground forces (see my previous post) not to mention potential loyalty issues.

Hellraiser

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Re: The original plan for Operation SILVER SHIELD succeeds?
« Reply #52 on: 23 August 2022, 10:53:57 »
6 BattleMech Divisions (= 36 BattleMech regiments)
11 Infantry Divisions (= 33 BattleMech regiments)
16 Independent Regiments (= 16 BattleMech regiments)
12 Warships

So, in November 2784 the remnants of the SLDF pledged to protect the Department of Communications possessed a strength of 85 BattleMech regiments and 12 Warships which is quite impressive. Jumping forward to CAT35235. Historical First Succession War and what is presumably the ComStar Expeditionary Forces (CSEF) [my name based on the Divisions listed therein] circa March 2788 before Silver Shield is approved shows a much smaller force, see below.

1st Division (SLDF 151st RBMD) [6 ‘Mech regiments]
2nd Division (SLDF 231st BMD) [6 ‘Mech regiments]
3rd Division (SLDF 197th MID) [3 ‘Mech regiments]
4th Division (SLDF 184th MID) [3 ‘Mech regiments]
5th Division (SLDF 13th RID) [3 ‘Mech regiments]
6th Division (SLDF 326th BMD) [6 ‘Mech regiments]
7th Division (SLDF 287th BMD) [6 ‘Mech regiments]
8th Division (SLDF 4 Ind Reg) [4 ‘Mech regiments]

Now this doesn’t count the Terran opposition (SLDF 79th MID and 123rd MID = 6 ‘Mech Regiments) faced during the canon operation which would have 43 ‘Mech regiments (37 ComStar Loyalists plus 6 Rebels) on Terra circa June 2788. That is a drop of 42 ‘Mech regiments in less than 4 years but does make sense to me. If you look at my old fanon Field Manual – Terran Republic 2785 I contend that the SLDF is an old force (personnel wise) that desperately needs (younger) replacement (nearly 13 years from the start of the Amaris Coup to the liberation of Terra is a long time without normal recruitment). Given their age and perhaps some growing discontent (departure of Kerensky, the flagging state of the Hegemony, start of the Succession War, Blake’s new direction) a wave of retirements during this time would not be surprising. I’d expect Blake and Hayes to also consolidate loyal commands and isolate potential problems accounting for the conflict that erupts in South America. I’d also expect the same strategy to be applied to the Navy as well.

This gives the CSEF a reserve of 42 ‘Mech regiments (at least equipment wise) from which they can draw upon to rapidly restore any damaged units during the conquest of Terra which is a lot more than I was expecting. Plus, this doesn’t account for other forces (Terran regional powers, mercenaries, friendly militia, etc.) which may be available that could help an expanded Silver Shield. How does this look to you guys for available military forces?

Point of order, those would have all been somewhat damaged from battle.  So I doubt the 17 Divisions were all 9+ Regiments in strength.

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Takiro

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Re: The original plan for Operation SILVER SHIELD succeeds?
« Reply #53 on: 23 August 2022, 13:59:06 »
Point of order, those would have all been somewhat damaged from battle.  So I doubt the 17 Divisions were all 9+ Regiments in strength.

I respectfully don't agree with your point sir. Plenty of units were disbanded and destroyed during the war but they shouldn't have been listed if not active commands. Could there be some personnel and equipment down, sure. Not to the range where a Division isn't a Division. And a BattleMech Division is 6 'Mech regiments strong while the others are 3 'Mech regiments strong.

Hellraiser

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Re: The original plan for Operation SILVER SHIELD succeeds?
« Reply #54 on: 23 August 2022, 14:08:17 »
I respectfully don't agree with your point sir. Plenty of units were disbanded and destroyed during the war but they shouldn't have been listed if not active commands. Could there be some personnel and equipment down, sure. Not to the range where a Division isn't a Division.

And a BattleMech Division is 6 'Mech regiments strong while the others are 3 'Mech regiments strong.

1.
Units don't usually get deactivated/disbanded till they are down 30-60% at least.
Those regiments could easily have been short a company to battalion EACH & still been on the active roles.

2.
Obviously, I wasn't just talking about just Mech regiments when I said 9. 
But if you want to get specific, 3 or 6 is not accurate either because each Infantry Brigade has a Mech Battalion attached to it & each Division has a Mech Battalion in the HQ Group.
So its actually 4 or 6.67 Mech Regiments per Division Type.
This doesn't even touch on the Recon, Combat Engineer, & Artillery Regiments or any Anti-Mech/Tank Brigades that are also part of a division.

Point is after the hell that was the Amaris War, none of them were sitting at 100%
To say that 17 Divisions averaged out to even 12% Casualties means your down 2 full divisions over all.  Just saying.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

mikecj

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Re: The original plan for Operation SILVER SHIELD succeeds?
« Reply #55 on: 23 August 2022, 16:23:09 »
Or Hayes's forces could have been at or above 100% with personnel & equipment transfers from other units that chose not to leave.
Unitil it's spelled out in a published product we don't know.

Personally I expect they were below 100% before the Exodus was announced and filled above 100% afterwards. 
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2ndAcr

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Re: The original plan for Operation SILVER SHIELD succeeds?
« Reply #56 on: 23 August 2022, 22:16:11 »
Or Hayes's forces could have been at or above 100% with personnel & equipment transfers from other units that chose not to leave.
Unitil it's spelled out in a published product we don't know.

Personally I expect they were below 100% before the Exodus was announced and filled above 100% afterwards.

 This. Could have had transfers from all the SLDF commands disbanded in 2784 to bring those units up to full strength. There are quite a few of them.

Takiro

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Re: The original plan for Operation SILVER SHIELD succeeds?
« Reply #57 on: 24 August 2022, 04:39:30 »
1.
Units don't usually get deactivated/disbanded till they are down 30-60% at least.
Those regiments could easily have been short a company to battalion EACH & still been on the active roles.

2.
Obviously, I wasn't just talking about just Mech regiments when I said 9. 
But if you want to get specific, 3 or 6 is not accurate either because each Infantry Brigade has a Mech Battalion attached to it & each Division has a Mech Battalion in the HQ Group.
So its actually 4 or 6.67 Mech Regiments per Division Type.
This doesn't even touch on the Recon, Combat Engineer, & Artillery Regiments or any Anti-Mech/Tank Brigades that are also part of a division.

Point is after the hell that was the Amaris War, none of them were sitting at 100%
To say that 17 Divisions averaged out to even 12% Casualties means your down 2 full divisions over all.  Just saying.

I can live with that as the 17 Divisions plus 16 Indy Regiments were the post Exodus 2784 starting point for ComStar's military and it would still give them nearly 80 'Mech regiments and 12 warships to begin with ballpark. This gave them a far larger force including reserves to draw upon than the list 2788 forces from the First Succession War sourcebook.

Or Hayes's forces could have been at or above 100% with personnel & equipment transfers from other units that chose not to leave.
Unitil it's spelled out in a published product we don't know.

Personally I expect they were below 100% before the Exodus was announced and filled above 100% afterwards. 

It could be. But as I contended earlier many could have simply retired or even taken up some kind of reserve posting after the Exodus. Rebuilding the Hegemony is pretty much a full-time job and there is plenty of work that these older 'National Guard' could still be doing as of 2788. This again gives ComStar a handsome backup force that they can mobilize making me more optimistic for the operation allowing me to touch on another point if I may.

The Great Houses don't know which SLDF units left with Kerensky and which didn't. In canon Blake used mercenaries to take Terra and a year later (following Silver Shield) founding ComStar's Mercenary Review Board (MRB) which left the Successor States guessing as to ComStar's true strength. This is another powerful advantage in the arsenal for our expanded operation to follow the Terran campaign and I wanted to run something by everyone? What do you think of styling your forces as parts of SLDF contingents that left or whose where abouts were unknown? This would give House Intelligence Agencies further trouble in identifying just who is at the disposal of the former Department of Communications.

Metallgewitter

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Re: The original plan for Operation SILVER SHIELD succeeds?
« Reply #58 on: 24 August 2022, 06:23:54 »
In terms of forces that stayed behind according to the sourcebook Liberation of Terra II Kerensky left 8 divisons of troops and material for double that number. To me that sounds as if those were nearly 100% strength divisions (though probably only accomplished by plucking all anti-Exodus soldiers / officers from the Exodus fleet) Just as an example Hayes division the 181st Royal Battlemech division lost a third of it's numbers in the SL civil war. I assume that said division was filled up with survivors from other units as the SLDf began a reorganization process after the end of the war. Also, in terms of mercenaries some divisions became Mercenaries right after the Exodus. Let's say those also joined Blake instead of going mercenary. And another point: Terrans wouldn't want to watch their planets get consumed by the Houses. Just look at New Dallas and how the Mariks dealt with them. If planets Comstar wants to protect have milita forces that would join (and their equipment was some of the finest the SL had to offer) that would swell the ranks too.

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Re: The original plan for Operation SILVER SHIELD succeeds?
« Reply #59 on: 24 August 2022, 09:27:53 »
Yup, I am getting to that point Metallgewitter.

Two questions I have for folks here I'd like to get input on.

1. If we are a go with this larger operation (two dozen star systems largely with the old Alliance Core or the Terran Province of the Hegemony) do you think the Successor Lords will tolerate a month-long communications blackout as opposed to just the three-day canon one? I think we are going to need a longer window of opportunity in which to conduct these operations without opposition as opposed to just seizing Terra.

2. What do you think of styling your forces as parts of SLDF contingents that left or whose where abouts were unknown? This would give House Intelligence Agencies further trouble in identifying just who is at the disposal of the former Department of Communications.

 

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