The Palmyra Disaster

[Colt Ward]

I just want him to be closer to the MWDA and Bonfire stories.

[Desu Vult]

Fair enough, I am not terribly familiar with that period, but I figured since they actually gained Victoria and it's factories, it could be argued to be a win.

Victoria was a clear Federated Suns victory and was spelled out as such, the largest Capellan gain was in diplomacy since they used diplomacy to stop the FedSun advance after being militarily defeated, losing a vital world, and losing large arms reserves.

This definition is why I was saying you won't let anything be a defeat, this "definition" lets you say that since you didn't get the sense from a novel that a side was losing, they didn't lose. Battletech isn't great for applying traditional war results to I agree, however, using that to declare that the defined definitions are now meaningless and you get to redefine "Victory" leaves us without an argument. Whatever you decide is victory is victory and whatever you feel like is defeat is defeat, and nothing anybody else says can change your stance because you get to define terms.

There are no previously defined definitions, I am not redefining anything.  Why do you keep declaring what my stance is or say that I am doing something or won't do something?  I gave you what I thought was a fair explanation of what I consider victory, I included several references and examples.  I provided what I thought to be a decent insight into my perception of the conflicts and their results so that discussion could be had.  You have thus far not reciprocated in discussing in any manner.  Can you reciprocate and tell me what you consider to be victories in Battletech and why? 

[Colt Ward]

Victoria War was not a FedSuns victory, rather a Capellan March . . . Amanda rolled that one out on her own.  But you are also forgetting the other side of the Suns, where the Draconis March has lost a lot of long time worlds into the Draconis Reach- a place they have been trading the worlds back & forth for a few decades before the Dark Ages.

[Wrangler]

Victoria War also reason why Amanda got her head shopped off.  Revenge bitter beast with the Capellans.

The Disaster sort trigger the fall in away of the FedSuns until Julian arrived.

[vaderi]

There are no previously defined definitions, I am not redefining anything.  Why do you keep declaring what my stance is or say that I am doing something or won't do something?  I gave you what I thought was a fair explanation of what I consider victory, I included several references and examples.  I provided what I thought to be a decent insight into my perception of the conflicts and their results so that discussion could be had.  You have thus far not reciprocated in discussing in any manner.  Can you reciprocate and tell me what you consider to be victories in Battletech and why?

From Wikipedia (I know, string me up for using Wikipedia as a source  but it's simpler than teasing the definition out of several obscure sources)

A strategic victory is a victory that brings long-term advantage to the victor and disturbs the enemy's ability to wage a war.

This is the definition of "Victory" that I use, specifically it's the common definition when dealing with the question of who "won" a war. A defeat

A list of victories and defeats for Battletech
4th Succession War - Victory for  FedSuns and Draconis Combine(due to Rasalhague independence)
War of 3039 - Victory for Draconis Combine
Clan Invasion - Defeat for all parties involved, If you want to debate this, fair enough but I think you'd have a hard time finding a victor and not a survivor
Capellan-St.Ives War - Victory for Capellan Confederation
FedCom Civil War - Defeat for Both parties involved, the people who win Civil wars are the neighboring states so in this case the Victors were everybody not in the FedCom
Jihad - Victory for Stone and Loss for everyone else
Andurien Secession - Victory for Capellan Confederation

[Templar87]

Victoria was a clear Federated Suns victory and was spelled out as such,

Err, no it wasn't. As described in Historical: Wars of the Republic Era, the Victoria War was an embarrassing defeat for the Federated Suns, made slightly less embarrassing by managing to hold on to Victoria even with the factories there wrecked (and, ultimately, a damning indictment of both Yvonne and Harrison as rulers, since the whole reason Amanda Hasek did it in the way she did was that she didn't believe she could count on support if she tried putting the idea to New Avalon, thanks to Yvonne's lousy judgement (notably not just retaining that gutless traitor Jackson Davion but promoting him, which tells the Capellan and Draconis Marches immediately that they cannot trust New Avalon anymore), and Harrison's actions proved entirely right since his response was to cripple the defence of the Capellan March until forced to support them).

[MarauderD]

Err, no it wasn't. As described in Historical: Wars of the Republic Era, the Victoria War was an embarrassing defeat for the Federated Suns, made slightly less embarrassing by managing to hold on to Victoria even with the factories there wrecked (and, ultimately, a damning indictment of both Yvonne and Harrison as rulers, since the whole reason Amanda Hasek did it in the way she did was that she didn't believe she could count on support if she tried putting the idea to New Avalon, thanks to Yvonne's lousy judgement (notably not just retaining that gutless traitor Jackson Davion but promoting him, which tells the Capellan and Draconis Marches immediately that they cannot trust New Avalon anymore), and Harrison's actions proved entirely right since his response was to cripple the defence of the Capellan March until forced to support them).

Agreed, Victoria War was a defeat--capturing the world allowed the veneer of pyrrhic victory.

Side note--I think we should get back on OP topic--the Palmyra disaster. 

On the idea of RCT v. LCT--do people think Brigade of Guards regiments might be reconstituted as LCTs?  I personally hate the LCT--it sets up ALWAYS being outnumbered--reminiscent of the 4th Succession war when you'd have two Liao battalions facing off against 3 Davion mech regiments on nearly every world.

That being said, its better to have an LCT than no unit at all...

[Colt Ward]

As I said earlier, I think we will see the flagship national formations come back before any others . . . and at enough strength they can be expected to survive rather than be just a token that gets wiped out causing a loss of morale.  FREX, at least a mixed battalion of mechs, armor and BA rather than a single company of mechs being 'the Davion Heavy Guards' on the roster.

Splinter, Shattered Fortress and the HotW interlude all talk about the morale of the FedSuns populace and confidence in the government having economic impacts.  Julian is needing to signal the realm is ascendant if in reality he is going to be able to hold on let alone recover.  So 'Davion' identified units need to be returned to the active duty rosters- Davion Heavy Guards, 2nd Davion Guards, and 3rd Davion Heavy Guards would all be first prob as some part of the LCT concept with the intention to get them to RCT strength.  After that I think you start considering the two Avalon Hussars and 2nd FS Cav . . . and the ONLY reason I include the 2FSAC is that they should be a very survivable command for raiding and will draw on other mechs than the DHG, 2DG, 3DG or Avalon Hussars would want.

Now here is a different part of that question . . .

Should Julian offer another planet to the Sea Foxes to secure the equipment needed to reform the 3 Davion units as really weak LCTs?  2 companies mechs, 1 armor BN, 1 BA/INF BN?

[MarauderD]

Should Julian offer another planet to the Sea Foxes to secure the equipment needed to reform the 3 Davion units as really weak LCTs?  2 companies mechs, 1 armor BN, 1 BA/INF BN?

Tough call.  If a planet means an RCT has fresh equipment, I think at this time he can't say no.  But too many planets mean the Foxes will eventually carve out a mini realm--especially if they are close together.  I would think no more than two per March. 

[Colt Ward]

Tough call.  If a planet means an RCT has fresh equipment, I think at this time he can't say no.  But too many planets mean the Foxes will eventually carve out a mini realm--especially if they are close together.  I would think no more than two per March.

The Foxes are not interesting in territorial bubbles but rather they seem to be laying claim to important worlds for trade & trade routes . . . which says bad things for the FedSuns economic future since revenue flows through trade.  But the FedSuns have to have a future to worry about future economic policy.

[five_corparty]

But the FedSuns have to have a future to worry about future economic policy.

Perfectly said. :-)

I don't see them rebuilding units while their lives depend on it, but YES, the moment they've booted the Kuriatians out, certain units -DBoG- get built as RCTs to backstop the AvHussars and such getting rebuilt as LCTs at first.  As they get stronger, LCTs become RCTS: i don't think they WANT LCTs anymore, but as many of youse guys have said, they need the flags out front for morale.

more behind the curtain: It's also a great way to get good leaders out and in charge quickly: if you got a veteran unit with an awesome col, 3 great BN CDRs an a pack of awesome majors, spinning off a bunch of them gets veteran leaders building new commands instead of having all the brains in one bucket.  that's more fluff than anything, but it would be an important part of rebuilding the AFFS as a WHOLE, not just a regiment at a time.

[five_corparty]

as too marrying, you are all spot on: trillian needs to pop out some dismounts with some loyal steiner dude (probably someone from coventry or hesperus) and Julian needs some heirs as well.  Story wise, if I had to take a GUESS, I'm thinking some Fivlet royal to pull them back into the fold.  a Kurita or Capcom marriage (unless to some random heir, like Isis Marik was- eighth in line or whatever) won't happen because I don't see catalyst wanting to have to run down ANOTHER civil war! 

buuuuttt.... some random Lioa duchess of tall trees or whatever?  in order to secure the border and a cease-fire in the face of an ilClan?  i can see Danoi and Jullian agreeing to something like that- she marries the duke of Gulkana, he gets the duchess of ovan, and they've secured the border for about a century?  NOONE is happy, but this is Battletech, not RomanceTech, and sometimes life gives you alligators and so you make some gatoraid. 

[Arkansas Warrior]

Whatever happened to the lady from Chesterton that Amanda Hasek was trying to set Julian up with? Sandra Fenton?  Obviously there was no real chemistry there, but needs must when the dragon drives. Callandre, on the other hand, there was chemistry there, but the hypergolic kind.  And she’s disappeared en route to Poulsbo, apparently.  ‘Twould be nice if she dropped in Big Damn Heroes style to assist in the reconquest of New Avalon, though.  I mean, I’d prefer the Pope of the New Avalon Catholic Church leading the recently-expanded Holy Order of Knight Defenders, but that’s neither here nor there.


Edit: Where is the bit about Julian piloting a Marauder II?  I don’t see it anywhere in the Marauder II Rec Guide entry.

[GuyIncognito]

It is in Battlerech Legends.

[five_corparty]

It is in Battlerech Legends.

what is this?  a book, a TRO?  I missed this! 

[FaithBomb]

what is this?  a book, a TRO?  I missed this! 

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/BattleTech:_Legends

[Sartris]

it was part of the kickstarter. the DTF/PDF will come eventually. probably too late for the special edition but it's definitely going to be around

[Arkansas Warrior]

Hmm, I need to go check through my kickstarter stuff.  I think I missed that one, somehow.

[FaithBomb]

Hmm, I need to go check through my kickstarter stuff.  I think I missed that one, somehow.

Same here, although I read it once, so I must have it, but I can't find the .pdf in my normal folder. How do we find our digital content on the kickstarter page? It's not very friendly

[RanFelsnerAFFS]

Same here, although I read it once, so I must have it, but I can't find the .pdf in my normal folder. How do we find our digital content on the kickstarter page? It's not very friendly

It is not on CrowdOx but within on the CGL store in the digital cornucopia (https://store.catalystgamelabs.com/products/clan-invasion-kickstarter-bundle) as a backer you should have the Code to download it for free

So check your CGL store account

[FaithBomb]

It is not on CrowdOx but within on the CGL store in the digital cornucopia (https://store.catalystgamelabs.com/products/clan-invasion-kickstarter-bundle) as a backer you should have the Code to download it for free

So check your CGL store account

Thank you. I ultimately did find it once I found the e-mail with the instructions in it, it just took me forever to find that e-mail. I would have never thought to look in my catalyst store page.

[Stormlion1]

Thank you. I ultimately did find it once I found the e-mail with the instructions in it, it just took me forever to find that e-mail. I would have never thought to look in my catalyst store page.

I went through the same problem.

[five_corparty]

same, faith walked me through the fix.

[Wrangler]

What level of KS are you folks?

[FaithBomb]

What level of KS are you folks?

Star Colonel

[Arkansas Warrior]

Star Colonel also.

[Sartris]

galaxy commander. the opportunity to befoul the BTU with my face was too good to pass up. whoever modified the crappy picture i took did amazing work. i can tell how close to a haircut i was.

[Stormlion1]

Star Colonel

[five_corparty]

Star Colonel as well.  the credit card just couldn't take any hit higher that close to Christmas!