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Author Topic: The Palmyra Disaster  (Read 11516 times)

Colt Ward

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #330 on: 20 April 2021, 13:58:24 »
Chalk it up to my ignorance, but I don't see how this conflicts with what I said. Tikonov fell 25 Oct 3145, and Danai didn't show up again on the radar until August 3146, which gives her plenty of time to partake in the "festivities". I don't know if she was there or not, or even if she was involved, but there's nothing implicitly stating that she wasn't. The MAC as a whole seems a lot more warcrime'y lately, and if she's been there ~10 years at this point, who knows how much that mentality rubbed off on her.  You specifically stated "Danai was not the one involved", but I don't see any evidence to conclude that beyond a reasonable doubt yet. She had been extra shooty on New Hessen, then moved on to Tikonov, and could easily have been at either location if/when the executions happened (as it isn't specified which planet things took place on).
I understand that, which is why I brought up Appendix E - which deals with the rules for surrender (which is differentiated from how to treat surrendered units, also in that Appendix). I don't know if those rules stated that "surrender has to be honored" or not, but she's breaking the spirit of the laws that everyone else is following. Hence "not a warcrime, but a warcrime". Shooting surrendering pilots without any justification (i.e., they have a bomb strapped to their chest) will never earn you brownie points.

It does not conflict except that you were insinuating she was in charge- she has not been until 3148 or 3149.  Every time we have seen her in combat she has followed accepted customs even when it was not always to her advantage (IE, killing Caleb).  The latest example was Legends, where she did not kill a Republic pilot from a unit that was frustrating her command.  Several battles happened between New Hessen (3138?  '39?) and Tikonov, but you want to blame her when we have nothing indicating her- just because she is a Liao in that command.  If Danai was attached to those rumors (see Xavier McCarron, it DOES fit his MO) then it seems odd Julian would have negotiated with someone who broke their word in such a manner.

Further, FM3145 is a Republic report which means the FedSuns may not even know those rumors.

Last the prisoner/surrender thing . . . Alaric did refuse to take MSC troops surrender on Helm, was accused by Brewer and commented on in Bonfire.  It was described as him killing prisoners . . . but they were not technically.  So, the differentiation in BT is sloppy.  As they are referencing rumors we do not even know the status of the 3FSL or even what the 2MAC's condition was when it happened.

As for Julian-Danai . . . I brought it up as a joke, BUT we get back around to both of them should have been working on heirs.  The FS has gone through 2 First Princes in under 15 years, and a simple look around would cause folks to notice 4 of the 5 Great Houses have changed leadership since the Black Out- most violently.  Two of the six Clans also lost their leaders though it would not have as much of a impact.  I chalk up the FWL going from 'No' leader to 'Jessika' leader, and then her assassination being a violent change- especially since it came about in part b/c Anson Marik died on his throne.  Danai is technically heir to two realms through several different means.

But we have CGL in charge of the narrative for over a decade with a few releases advancing the timeline since the MWDA stopped . . . and the two of the 'future' leaders have no heir.
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Ramseti

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #331 on: 20 April 2021, 14:53:13 »
It does not conflict except that you were insinuating she was in charge- she has not been until 3148 or 3149. 
She was in charge - Sao-shao Centralla-Liao had been the 3rd BN CDR since 3136, up until she got the regiment. No, she wasn't in charge of the regiment at the time (she could have, ostensibly, been 2nd in command of the regiment at some point due to her name, who knows), but I specifically said earlier that not every order comes directly from the regimental CO's mouth. All it takes is a pissed BN CDR and a Regimental CDR who looks the other way.

Quote from: Colt Ward
Every time we have seen her in combat she has followed accepted customs even when it was not always to her advantage (IE, killing Caleb).
New Hessen fell to the 2nd MAC on 6 Dec 3144 (Era Report 3145, p.24 sidebar). "Danai has been at the forefront of the Capellan assault into the Federated Suns, and showed uncharacteristic ferocity during the conquest of New Hessen" (ER 3145, p.87).

So she became 3rd BN CDR in 3136, took New Hessen (shooting downed pilots in the process) in 3144 (ER 3145, p.35), 2nd MAC took part in Tikonov Sep-Oct 3145 (ER 3145, p.161), with the 2nd MAC being stationed on New Hessen in 3145 (FM 3145, p.46), and then finally Danai showed up in Marlette on 13 Aug 3146 (Shattered Fortress, p.99). The 3rd FS Lancers were post 3145. The timeline shows she was pissed at Suns pilots, took part in both campaigns within ~one year, and wasn't posted elsewhere for *another* year after Tikonov. I'm not saying 100% that she did it, simply that the possibility exists for her inclusion.
« Last Edit: 20 April 2021, 14:55:47 by Ramseti »

FaithBomb

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #332 on: 20 April 2021, 15:11:04 »
Also can we please not call it the "Confederate Suns". The word Confederate would be like red meat for..umm..some people.
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Colt Ward

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #333 on: 20 April 2021, 15:29:00 »
She was in charge - Sao-shao Centralla-Liao had been the 3rd BN CDR since 3136, up until she got the regiment. No, she wasn't in charge of the regiment at the time (she could have, ostensibly, been 2nd in command of the regiment at some point due to her name, who knows), but I specifically said earlier that not every order comes directly from the regimental CO's mouth. All it takes is a pissed BN CDR and a Regimental CDR who looks the other way.
New Hessen fell to the 2nd MAC on 6 Dec 3144 (Era Report 3145, p.24 sidebar). "Danai has been at the forefront of the Capellan assault into the Federated Suns, and showed uncharacteristic ferocity during the conquest of New Hessen" (ER 3145, p.87).

So she became 3rd BN CDR in 3136, took New Hessen (shooting downed pilots in the process) in 3144 (ER 3145, p.35), 2nd MAC took part in Tikonov Sep-Oct 3145 (ER 3145, p.161), with the 2nd MAC being stationed on New Hessen in 3145 (FM 3145, p.46), and then finally Danai showed up in Marlette on 13 Aug 3146 (Shattered Fortress, p.99). The 3rd FS Lancers were post 3145. The timeline shows she was pissed at Suns pilots, took part in both campaigns within ~one year, and wasn't posted elsewhere for *another* year after Tikonov. I'm not saying 100% that she did it, simply that the possibility exists for her inclusion.


I already said she was a battalion commander- but if she is not in charge of the regiment she is not responsible for all the regiment's actions.  'Uncharacteristic ferocity' is not war crimes- sidebar has no mention of her or the 2MAC committing atrocities.  She pilots a melee specialist mech, medium sized . . . she is going to be 'ferocious' when fighting since she does not cause damage unless she gets close.  IIRC New Hessen, after it was taken, was 2MAC's recovery world where it would rotate after taking a new planet for the CC.  Marlette?  Meeting Julian on that world was the conclusion of the Sun's Republic instigated offensive which Danai had participated against.

And no, the 'rumored' War Crimes were not after 3145- Harwell's report to Stone was Nov 3145, and the rumors are in that book for the 2MAC's actions which means they had enough time to get off Tikonov (btw, WHERE the 3FSL were the defenders) and make their way back through the Fortress to Terra for Harwell to compile into the report.
 Which means based on the October timeframe and the date of 15 Nov 3145 for the report, they were killed either before the pacification or immediately after.  Cyrus and Tao are the only 2MAC officers mentioned, and Xavier & Cyrus by their previous actions are much more likely to order those strikes.

I never ruled out she could have been responsible, merely that b/c she was in the unit she was the one responsible.  Nothing in the fiction we get of her combat, even with the flaky novella writing of Splinter, set that sort of character for her.
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Ramseti

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #334 on: 20 April 2021, 15:30:38 »
Also can we please not call it the "Confederate Suns". The word Confederate would be like red meat for..umm..some people.
I think the notion of the combined state pointless, but what term would suit it better? Something like Capellan Suns seems to infer (at least to me) that one state conquered the other. And neither state would be likely to dismiss their name entirely, so I'm not sure how to otherwise integrate their names.

Ramseti

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #335 on: 20 April 2021, 16:04:02 »
I already said she was a battalion commander- but if she is not in charge of the regiment she is not responsible for all the regiment's actions.
But she still could have participated (or precipitated), I don't understand why that's so difficult to accept. The original point was that she was party to warcrimes, not whether she led them or not. You specifically said that she wasn't part of it, but no one can say whether she was there or not at the time of their execution.

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'Uncharacteristic ferocity' is not war crimes- sidebar has no mention of her or the 2MAC committing atrocities.
"The Capellan victory was somewhat marred by the viciousness of the troops under Liao-Centrella’s command, who followed their leader’s example in showing little mercy to downed pilots or surrendered soldiers. Given that the sao-shao had never exhibited such bloody-mindedness before and has not exhibited such behavior since, something else must have been involved to make her—and, by extension, her unit—act in such a way, but what that something might be we have no idea." (ER 3145, p. 35). Yes, I'm aware that says "nothing else since then", but we're also talking about a rumor which leaves a lot of wiggle room for details to be filled in.

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IIRC New Hessen, after it was taken, was 2MAC's recovery world where it would rotate after taking a new planet for the CC.  Marlette?  Meeting Julian on that world was the conclusion of the Sun's Republic instigated offensive which Danai had participated against.
I don't understand your point. New Hessen ('44) > Tikonov ('45) > Marlette ('46) gives time for her to be on New Hessen or Tikonov in late 3145.

Quote
And no, the 'rumored' War Crimes were not after 3145- Harwell's report to Stone was Nov 3145, and the rumors are in that book for the 2MAC's actions which means they had enough time to get off Tikonov (btw, WHERE the 3FSL were the defenders) and make their way back through the Fortress to Terra for Harwell to compile into the report. Which means based on the October timeframe and the date of 15 Nov 3145 for the report, they were killed either before the pacification or immediately after.  Cyrus and Tao are the only 2MAC officers mentioned, and Xavier & Cyrus by their previous actions are much more likely to order those strikes.
Post October 3145, sorry (ER 3145, p. 161: "Taking of Tikonov Mini-Campaign Forces"), as that's when the 3rd FS Lancers showed up and Tikonov falls. And besides, the Dragoons made it to Luthien pretty fast in 3050, things happen when plot driven. There's nothing stating who captured the soldiers, what planet they may have been executed on, nor who ordered it. Every TO&E says "2nd MAC" on Tikonov for the second battle, not "elements of the 2nd MAC" or "2 battalions" or anything else that would exclude Danai from being there.

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I never ruled out she could have been responsible, merely that b/c she was in the unit she was the one responsible.  Nothing in the fiction we get of her combat, even with the flaky novella writing of Splinter, set that sort of character for her.
You said "Danai was not the one involved in war crimes- so I am wondering where this idea comes from.", and I gave you one undeniable instance of warcrime-level actions, and one possibility of involvement. Chain of Command is completely irrelevant for whether or not she herself was involved.

Nibs

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #336 on: 20 April 2021, 16:30:58 »
I think the notion of the combined state pointless, but what term would suit it better? Something like Capellan Suns seems to infer (at least to me) that one state conquered the other. And neither state would be likely to dismiss their name entirely, so I'm not sure how to otherwise integrate their names.

Clearly it should be the 'Confederated Federations'.

FaithBomb

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #337 on: 20 April 2021, 16:32:35 »
What is the original source on these war crimes? Maybe it would be easier to work backwards.
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Ramseti

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #338 on: 20 April 2021, 16:53:07 »
What is the original source on these war crimes? Maybe it would be easier to work backwards.
Which ones?

Colt Ward

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #339 on: 20 April 2021, 17:08:52 »
Read the opening fiction of ER3145- it has the 3FSL as one of the garrison regiments of Tikonov, particularly the one who trashed some Warrior House folks while another CC regiment slipped by to kill Aaron.  Colonel Wallace Glynn leading the 3FSL is the POV character of the opening story set in May 3145, and during the first invasion of Tikonov; the 3FSL is responsible for the Tikograd environs.  In fact your scenario on page 161 proves they were there the whole time, tying in with the intro fiction's regiment description.  The 3FSL were made up of former Swordsworn and there at the beginning of the year along with the 4FSL . . . which died May 3145.  The 8th CL RCT gets there June 3145 and is destroyed/departed Oct 3145.  In fact, Tikonovian Stranglehold, set Setp 3145 has the 3SL as the defenders.  The later scenario- Final Clash of Swords- has the 3FSL make a spoiling attack so Davion forces could retreat off world- like 3SL survivors and the 8CL.

Her ferocity is directly attributed to her, the troops followed that example with viciousness to the New Hessen defenders.  She probably did turn a blind eye on New Hessen, I give you that case especially since her battalion outnumbered the defenders it would hard to say her battalion was not in a position to take prisoners.  My contention of executing prisoners was Tikonov, which was the first thing you alluded to, and that is where I was saying she was not in charge- besides the actual listed regimental commander McCarron's other son is also in the regiment and the Big MAC's command formation often times goes along with the 2MAC.

ER3145 has two sentences- one about Danai being ferocious specifically, and the other he cited about the unit following her example and being vicious to downed pilots and surrendered troops.  FM3145 mentions the rumor of executing 3SL prisoners in Oct 3145 as part of the 2MAC's write up.

But BT fiction and SBs have never made the fine distinction of gunning down someone trying to surrender vs walking POWs out into a field to meet a machine gun.
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FaithBomb

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #340 on: 20 April 2021, 17:34:00 »
Which ones?

Any by the 2nd Mac. I've found references to them being aggressive and such, but what specific war crimes are you referring to, I'm just trying to find the original source material on those.
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Ramseti

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #341 on: 20 April 2021, 17:40:14 »
In fact your scenario on page 161 proves they were there the whole time, tying in with the intro fiction's regiment description.
Yup, you're right, I read that time backwards for some reason. And it literally changes nothing. 2nd MAC was only there Sept/Oct. I honestly don't even know what this tangent is for. 2nd MAC is rumored to have executed some 3FSL soldiers that they had captured, most likely on Tikonov. Danai was there unless you have something that specifically says she, or 3BN, was elsewhere from September 3145 on.  There is absolutely nothing to say that she wasn't wherever things went down, the timeline leaves that window open.

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Her ferocity is directly attributed to her, the troops followed that example with viciousness to the New Hessen defenders.
The quote I provided explicitly states "followed her example [in killing downed pilots]". It doesn't imply, or force one to assume, it says she did it.

Quote
My contention of executing prisoners was Tikonov, which was the first thing you alluded to, and that is where I was saying she was not in charge- besides the actual listed regimental commander McCarron's other son is also in the regiment and the Big MAC's command formation often times goes along with the 2MAC.
Who gave the order is irrelevant, the topic is whether or not she participated in any way, which is unknown at this point.

Hotham

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #342 on: 20 April 2021, 17:43:47 »
Also can we please not call it the "Confederate Suns". The word Confederate would be like red meat for..umm..some people.

I had to double check my post to be sure I didn't conflate the two spellings.That would be easy for me due being born and raised in Alabama. I don't care for the various differentiation of the name either. Now the Draconis Suns, that has a ring to it.
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Dahmin_Toran

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #343 on: 20 April 2021, 17:52:45 »
I do remember some Davion mercenaries back in the Fourth Succession War sealing some captured Mechwarriors in their Mechs and throwing them in a river. Nobody is clean.

Dahmin_Toran

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #344 on: 20 April 2021, 17:54:03 »
Now the Draconis Suns, that has a ring to it.

Sounds like something from a video game.

Dahmin_Toran

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #345 on: 20 April 2021, 17:55:48 »
That reminds me when I ran my Fed Com Civil War campaign and my friend wanted to pick the side that was more like the CSA, so he picked the Federated Suns.

Ramseti

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #346 on: 20 April 2021, 17:57:14 »
Any by the 2nd Mac.
That could take a while, if we're talking about their history (like murdering tens of millions on Mitchel as they left the planet in the Victoria War), but if we're just talking this particular topic chain:


Era Report 3145, p. 35
Quote
The Capellan victory was somewhat marred by the viciousness of the troops under Liao-Centrella’s command, who followed their leader’s example in showing little mercy to downed pilots or surrendered soldiers. Given that the sao-shao had never exhibited such bloody-mindedness before and has not exhibited such behavior since, something else must have been involved to make her—and, by extension, her unit act in such a way, but what that something might be we have no idea.

FM 3145, p32
Quote
Nominally under the command of San-shao Shaiming Tao, the Second has become infamous for the brutality of their campaign against the Davions. Rumors have surfaced indicating all of the Third FedSuns Lancers captured at Tikonov were summarily executed.

Templar87

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #347 on: 20 April 2021, 18:05:33 »
I do remember some Davion mercenaries back in the Fourth Succession War sealing some captured Mechwarriors in their Mechs and throwing them in a river. Nobody is clean.


However, the response of the nearest AFFS unit is pretty telling, as they clearly were not okay with that (considering that when they found out what the 1st Screaming Eagles had done, the 7th Almach Foot marched up to the Eagles' encampment, put guns on them - a light infantry unit, this is, squaring off against a 'Mech regiment - and demanded the Eagles stand down and their CO submit to arrest (either counting on the Eagles being unwilling to open fire on them, or considering it more than their lives were worth to let the Eagles get away with it)).
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Hotham

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #348 on: 20 April 2021, 18:22:37 »
That reminds me when I ran my Fed Com Civil War campaign and my friend wanted to pick the side that was more like the CSA, so he picked the Federated Suns.

If you look at it from a Anglo-Saxon vs Germanic standpoint, but even then the similarities are are quite barebones. Both nations were very mixed.

I would paint the LA as the an analogue for CSA since the Lyrans where the ones who seceded and Victor was trying to hold everything togather initially.
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FaithBomb

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #349 on: 20 April 2021, 19:12:50 »
Quote
The Capellan victory was somewhat marred by the viciousness of the troops under Liao-Centrella’s command, who followed their leader’s example in showing little mercy to downed pilots or surrendered soldiers. Given that the sao-shao had never exhibited such bloody-mindedness before and has not exhibited such behavior since, something else must have been involved to make her—and, by extension, her unit act in such a way, but what that something might be we have no idea.

Something else must have been involved? Maybe like she got raped by a crazy man?

And this is contradictory. It states that this was a one-off, and she and her unit (2MAC) didn't display it before or since. Well if THAT is true, then why do we then have:

Quote
Nominally under the command of San-shao Shaiming Tao, the Second has become infamous for the brutality of their campaign against the Davions. Rumors have surfaced indicating all of the Third FedSuns Lancers captured at Tikonov were summarily executed.

So which is right? The rumors that they executed people afterwards, or that they didn't do anything other than the example cited in ER3145. They can't BOTH be right.
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Dahmin_Toran

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #350 on: 21 April 2021, 11:42:09 »
If you look at it from a Anglo-Saxon vs Germanic standpoint, but even then the similarities are are quite barebones. Both nations were very mixed.

I would paint the LA as the an analogue for CSA since the Lyrans where the ones who seceded and Victor was trying to hold everything togather initially.

It was more because the Lyrans had better industry and less flexible field commanders, while the Davions had more mobile, faster units and better commanders on the ground (for the most part).

Colt Ward

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #351 on: 21 April 2021, 13:22:42 »
So which is right? The rumors that they executed people afterwards, or that they didn't do anything other than the example cited in ER3145. They can't BOTH be right.

Problem is . . . each book is written as a report for their organization . . . ER3145 is written by the Republic Remnant for Redburn.  FM3145 is written by Tucker Harwell for Stone 14Nov3145, with what sounds like better intel reports/assets and nearer the scene of action.

So the answer is . . .

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MarauderD

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #352 on: 21 April 2021, 13:32:53 »
So the answer is . . .



Funny side note:  my daughters saw return of the jedi for the first time with me a couple weeks ago, and after that scene my 7 year old said "Dad, that isn't right--that's just confusing."  A thought it was hilarious that she said that.

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #353 on: 21 April 2021, 17:29:03 »
Also can we please not call it the "Confederate Suns". The word Confederate would be like red meat for..umm..some people.

The name is already canon in Battletech Adventure- Empire Aflame, An April Fools Joke. And again, I really do not like the concept, and not really because of the name. It's just combining the two nations like Federated Commonwealth. Besides, it's Battletech- we already have the planet Dixie, mostly Lyran now Wolf Empire.

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #354 on: 21 April 2021, 17:42:05 »
One suspects the ruler of Old Kentucky is called the Colonel, Xin Sheng reforms be damned.
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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #355 on: 21 April 2021, 17:53:09 »
I'd watch out for rule 4 with the way that discussion is going...

But old FASA stuff almost always had an element like that.. Crimson Skies and Shadowrun have America split up into North and South...

But back then I think that we thought we all knew who the good guys were... oh well, moving on. Live and learn.
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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #356 on: 21 April 2021, 18:03:46 »
For the record, it's the Confederated Suns, not Confederate Suns. No Dixie relations to be had.

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #357 on: 21 April 2021, 18:43:32 »
The name is already canon in Battletech Adventure- Empire Aflame, An April Fools Joke. And again, I really do not like the concept, and not really because of the name. It's just combining the two nations like Federated Commonwealth. Besides, it's Battletech- we already have the planet Dixie, mostly Lyran now Wolf Empire.

I wouldn't say that its canon. The adventure states that only events leading up to the misjump is canon.
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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #358 on: 21 April 2021, 18:54:43 »
I think the word Lord Harlock was looking for was "established".

Lord Harlock

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #359 on: 21 April 2021, 19:06:26 »
I think the word Lord Harlock was looking for was "established".

As I recall, you were one of the originators of the concept, MadCap. And it is canon in the sense that you can get there through a misjump, a horrible one.

 

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