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Author Topic: The Palmyra Disaster  (Read 12736 times)

MadCapellan

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #360 on: 21 April 2021, 19:34:59 »
As I recall, you were one of the originators of the concept, MadCap. And it is canon in the sense that you can get there through a misjump, a horrible one.

Horrible is in the eyes of the beholder! I happen to think it's a good one. Why be enemies when you can be friends? Think of all the conflicts we didn't have to have!

Alexander Knight

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #361 on: 22 April 2021, 02:39:04 »
Think of all the extra chances to beat up on the Dracs!

ArkRoyalRavager

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #362 on: 22 April 2021, 03:34:27 »
Except that in that timeline, the Dracs also conquered New Avalon. What's the point of the merger when they can do nothing to change the situation?

MadCapellan

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #363 on: 22 April 2021, 06:32:40 »
We can have a shared sense of purpose & spite over the loss of our ancestral worlds and collectively exhert all our efforts to reclaim them? Sounds like the kind of thing epic friendships are built upon!

ArkRoyalRavager

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #364 on: 22 April 2021, 07:50:48 »
Sorry sir, no way. Capellan society is too oppressive and fake. At least in the Suns, one can honestly work his way up without being a piece of property.

MadCapellan

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #365 on: 22 April 2021, 10:21:10 »
I guess we'll have to just keep on sacking New Syrtis then. Shame you guys don't want to get along. Probably should at least give us any of our remaining stuff back. You all seem to have enough potential enemies without us.

HABeas2

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #366 on: 22 April 2021, 10:41:25 »
As I recall, you were one of the originators of the concept, MadCap. And it is canon in the sense that you can get there through a misjump, a horrible one.

Sure, if your GM allows it. But since that setting won't get any further game support or fiction, it's little more than playing "what if?" with your minis and character sheets.

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MarauderD

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #367 on: 22 April 2021, 11:12:55 »
I guess we'll have to just keep on sacking New Syrtis then. Shame you guys don't want to get along. Probably should at least give us any of our remaining stuff back. You all seem to have enough potential enemies without us.

How about we just give you the rest of the Hasek family and you can take care of them for us?  I'm game for a stable border with the Confederation for 100 years.  (maybe we can sneak Chesterton, Demeter, and New Hessen in but hey, what are 3 systems between old friends?)

Hotham

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #368 on: 22 April 2021, 11:41:20 »
How about we just give you the rest of the Hasek family and you can take care of them for us?  I'm game for a stable border with the Confederation for 100 years.  (maybe we can sneak Chesterton, Demeter, and New Hessen in but hey, what are 3 systems between old friends?)

I'm disappointed with this line of thinking. I guess all the good the Hasek dynasty has done for the FS means jack-all against a few historical blemishes. Especially when the the chips are down.
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MarauderD

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #369 on: 22 April 2021, 11:47:12 »
Well, we're getting a bit astray of the Palmyra Disaster, but if you include Michael (H-D), George Hasek, and Amanda Hasek, I think you have treason and 2 disastrous military campaigns that cost the FedSuns a lot of military capability when the could ill afford it.  I'm not sure the Capellan March is in good hands with the Haseks.


Arkansas Warrior

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #370 on: 22 April 2021, 12:14:04 »
I blame Michael Hasek-Davion’s mother.  Clearly the rot crept in through her, as it’s only present in her descendants (Caleb Hasek-Davion-Sandoval-Steiner-Davion being another)
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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #371 on: 22 April 2021, 13:06:16 »
Well, we're getting a bit astray of the Palmyra Disaster, but if you include Michael (H-D), George Hasek, and Amanda Hasek, I think you have treason and 2 disastrous military campaigns that cost the FedSuns a lot of military capability when the could ill afford it.  I'm not sure the Capellan March is in good hands with the Haseks.

I think it's too late for that in this thread. But as Arkansas Warrior mentions, Caleb is part of the Hasek line so it loosely fits. If you want to talk Palmyra, let's talk Palmyra. I haven't read the Dark Age novels so I only have sourcebooks to go on. Were the DCMS able to completely salvage what was left of the FS units on Palmyra or is the planet now gold mine of BattleMech parts and other war materials?
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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #372 on: 22 April 2021, 13:10:22 »
Well, we're getting a bit astray of the Palmyra Disaster, but if you include Michael (H-D), George Hasek, and Amanda Hasek, I think you have treason and 2 disastrous military campaigns that cost the FedSuns a lot of military capability when the could ill afford it.  I'm not sure the Capellan March is in good hands with the Haseks.

Like the Davions are doing any better, lately? Disaster after disaster after disaster. Even the fight to regain New Syrtis was a debacle. If I were to translate Danai's attempt to retake New Syrtis as a wrestling match, it would wind up as one wrestler being told he must lose to the other. He would then go into the ring, beat the living crud out of his opponent and then jump out of the ring and get himself disqualified.

Still, the legitimate heir of Caleb is Aleksander Hasek and by holding the Sirdar pocket with no help from New Avalon, he's proven himself better than Julian. Whatever Julian has done required much aid to do for lackluster results and WAY too much cost.

To bring this back to Palmyra, the writers have done a really bad job of making Caleb a bad ruler. The only real failing in this matter I can see is trusting the wrong person. If the Snow Ravens did as they promised to do, the Draconis Combine would've been shattered and ripe for picking between them and the Bears. Caleb would have returned his attention to the Confederation.

Templar87

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #373 on: 22 April 2021, 13:22:06 »
I would also note that Yvonne and Harrison honestly left Caleb in a genuinely terrible position, considering that there's damage to the Suns - and to the AFFS - dating back to the FedCom Civil War that still hasn't been fixed. I would also be inclined to comment that both SOVEREIGN JUSTICE and the Victoria War are consequent of the lousy job of ruling done by the main Daivon/Steiner-Davion line; oh, and, of course, Jackson Davion, the incredible man with pudding for a spine, and who to name Varnay would be a grotesque insult to David Varnay (who was at least a man, rather than a cabbage).

(and the Victoria War, at least, ended up going as badly as it did at least in part due to Harrison stripping Capellan March Command of JumpShips just as the Cappie counterattacks kicked off in earnest)
« Last Edit: 22 April 2021, 13:23:56 by Templar87 »
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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #374 on: 22 April 2021, 14:23:56 »
Given that Caleb murdered Harrison, I don’t think it’s fair to say Harrison “left” him in a bad position.  Caleb put himself in a bad position, by murdering his father, raping the heir of a neighboring power, and a whole host of other terrible decisions.
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Colt Ward

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #375 on: 22 April 2021, 14:25:39 »
To bring this back to Palmyra, the writers have done a really bad job of making Caleb a bad ruler. The only real failing in this matter I can see is trusting the wrong person. If the Snow Ravens did as they promised to do, the Draconis Combine would've been shattered and ripe for picking between them and the Bears. Caleb would have returned his attention to the Confederation.

Caleb was convinced of his own brilliance . . . centralizing command rather than diffusing it so responses to incursions could be done without having to wait forever for direction from above.  The decision cycle w/o interstellar communication gives a huge advantage to the attacker be it raid or invasion.

For Palmyra specifically?  1 staging world instead of 3, no spoiling raids we are told about (like Bird Dog), ignoring the Sandoval's requests about the Dracs for years, thinking b/c he slept w/ McKenna like his father she was under his control, not trying to hire away the Dragoons when their contract with the Lyrans was ending . . . or not hiring mercs in general (list of dead units did not include any temp hires afaik), trying to maintain a central command on the staging world, etc

Being on the wrong planet in the first place . . . some other thread (or maybe earlier in this one) I pointed out how Caleb's offensive should have been planned just using historical BT campaigns.
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Templar87

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #376 on: 22 April 2021, 16:24:34 »
Given that Caleb murdered Harrison, I don’t think it’s fair to say Harrison “left” him in a bad position.  Caleb put himself in a bad position, by murdering his father, raping the heir of a neighboring power, and a whole host of other terrible decisions.


And what about the preceding three and a half decades of Harrison simply not doing anything to fix the damage to the Suns and the AFFS that he was well aware of; or Yvonne's near of thirty years of the same lack of effort to do anything about those damages (hell, she put one of the architects of them back in charge of the AFFS - even gave him a second job that amounts to a promotion - rather than dismissing him from the service in disgrace, when she knows he's a shiftless, untrustworthy git!).

Hell yes, Harrison left Caleb with a bad position to deal with; hell, just leaving Caleb in the succession rather than removing him long before Terra ensured that, and it's the exemplar of Harrison's ineffective rule. He knows that Caleb is clinically a not very functional paranoid schizophrenic, and yet Harrison doesn't do anything about it; doesn't take Caleb out of the succession, doesn't get him some kind of help, doesn't tell people - Julian, Corwin Sandoval, Amanda Hasek, etc. - who need to know, just leaves the problem and, well, I don't know, hopes it fixes itself or something?
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Lord Harlock

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #377 on: 22 April 2021, 18:09:13 »

Hell yes, Harrison left Caleb with a bad position to deal with; hell, just leaving Caleb in the succession rather than removing him long before Terra ensured that, and it's the exemplar of Harrison's ineffective rule. He knows that Caleb is clinically a not very functional paranoid schizophrenic, and yet Harrison doesn't do anything about it; doesn't take Caleb out of the succession, doesn't get him some kind of help, doesn't tell people - Julian, Corwin Sandoval, Amanda Hasek, etc. - who need to know, just leaves the problem and, well, I don't know, hopes it fixes itself or something?

Well, there was also Harrison's spymaster Dr. Riccard Streng who kind of just disappeared, but he knew about the situation with Caleb. He probably got stuck in the Republic when the Fortress Wall went up or something. Maybe he planned it all? But that's really getting into the weeds.

Caleb was convinced of his own brilliance . . . centralizing command rather than diffusing it so responses to incursions could be done without having to wait forever for direction from above.  The decision cycle w/o interstellar communication gives a huge advantage to the attacker be it raid or invasion.

For Palmyra specifically?  1 staging world instead of 3, no spoiling raids we are told about (like Bird Dog), ignoring the Sandoval's requests about the Dracs for years, thinking b/c he slept w/ McKenna like his father she was under his control, not trying to hire away the Dragoons when their contract with the Lyrans was ending . . . or not hiring mercs in general (list of dead units did not include any temp hires afaik), trying to maintain a central command on the staging world, etc

Being on the wrong planet in the first place . . . some other thread (or maybe earlier in this one) I pointed out how Caleb's offensive should have been planned just using historical BT campaigns.

And that's why Caleb is the main problem. He had seven years to do something, and he mostly just sacked people and didn't replace them. It's one thing to point out that Yvonne and Harrison drank deeply of the Stoner Political Doctrine, but it is entirely different thing to say that Harrison didn't do anything. Hell, Harrison had started to look into ways of building up the AFFS right before the funeral for Victor with Champion Julian Davion as they realized their estimates for real size for the CCAF were way off.

(Suddenly, the idea for Riccard Streng to be some sort saboteur makes sense. He lowered his estimates for the CCAF warehouses which were discovered during the Victoria War. He could be MASK, one of the various SAFE organizations, a Ghost Knight, ROM, or even a graduate of Gogh Bukowski University. Mind you, he probably will never come up again.)

My point is that Caleb was set up to fail, and all of his failures were mostly his own and that darn Stone. I am sure that he is involved somehow.


Hotham

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #378 on: 22 April 2021, 18:31:33 »

My point is that Caleb was set up to fail, and all of his failures were mostly his own and that darn Stone. I am sure that he is involved somehow.

If we look at like this, not only was Caleb set up by the negligent actions of predessecors, he was also mentally unstable. At what point do we hold him accountable for his actions? If he survived Palmyra would he have been capable of self-reflection? In my opinion the man is pure evil, crazy or not.
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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #379 on: 23 April 2021, 19:36:36 »
Caleb was most definitely set up to fail.  Some characters in this universe are, no
matter what we might think or hope for.  In his case he got off lightly, imho.

The FS is I believe, making decent headway to recover it's strength and lost worlds.
New units have been raised, and based on the account of Robinson have made a
good show of themselves.  I think we'll have a few more surprises yet, for any of
our foes.
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ArkRoyalRavager

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #380 on: 24 April 2021, 05:21:27 »
I guess we'll have to just keep on sacking New Syrtis then. Shame you guys don't want to get along. Probably should at least give us any of our remaining stuff back. You all seem to have enough potential enemies without us.

I guess we'll have to start nuking Sian and Capella, support the St Ives underground for an independent buffer and reclaim our salients into the Confederation. While we're at it, put a memo to the AFFS to reconstitute units back to their RCT status and get the neoFWL to continue clearing a path 10 parsecs to Sarna.

Templar87

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #381 on: 25 April 2021, 03:21:37 »
And that's why Caleb is the main problem. He had seven years to do something, and he mostly just sacked people and didn't replace them. It's one thing to point out that Yvonne and Harrison drank deeply of the Stoner Political Doctrine, but it is entirely different thing to say that Harrison didn't do anything. Hell, Harrison had started to look into ways of building up the AFFS right before the funeral for Victor with Champion Julian Davion as they realized their estimates for real size for the CCAF were way off.


Here's the issue: Harrison has known this by thirty years at this point, and has done nothing. The AFFS uncovered during the Victoria War that the Capellans were lying through their teeth about how much they'd disarmed, and yet Harrison doesn't seem to've done anything with that information; hell, the opening of Sword of Sedition implies that Julian - who as Prince's Champion kind of needs to know this stuff - didn't find out until very shortly prior to the novel. So, yeah, Caleb was not a good ruler by any definition - but Harrison wasn't any better, and in many ways was worse.
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ArkRoyalRavager

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #382 on: 25 April 2021, 08:39:53 »
Because the Republic-era Suns wasn't fleshed out, it is easy to assume Harrison's reign was disastrous. He could've strengthened the realm in other ways.

With a half-Davion as First Lord, Julian might really follow in Alexander Davion's footsteps and join the new Star League if the accession treaty includes protection against Liao and Kurita as well as a guarantee of the Suns' pre-war territorial integrity(or somesuch).

MadCapellan

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #383 on: 25 April 2021, 10:52:37 »
I guess we'll have to start nuking Sian and Capella, support the St Ives underground for an independent buffer and reclaim our salients into the Confederation. While we're at it, put a memo to the AFFS to reconstitute units back to their RCT status and get the neoFWL to continue clearing a path 10 parsecs to Sarna.

Business as usual, then? A pity.

Colt Ward

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #384 on: 25 April 2021, 23:51:00 »

Here's the issue: Harrison has known this by thirty years at this point, and has done nothing. The AFFS uncovered during the Victoria War that the Capellans were lying through their teeth about how much they'd disarmed, and yet Harrison doesn't seem to've done anything with that information; hell, the opening of Sword of Sedition implies that Julian - who as Prince's Champion kind of needs to know this stuff - didn't find out until very shortly prior to the novel. So, yeah, Caleb was not a good ruler by any definition - but Harrison wasn't any better, and in many ways was worse.

Coventry . . . but yeah, the whole succession thing should have been settled by the time Harrison went to Terra.
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ArkRoyalRavager

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #385 on: 26 April 2021, 03:35:56 »
Business as usual, then? A pity.

A pity ;)

Metallgewitter

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #386 on: 28 April 2021, 01:48:17 »

Here's the issue: Harrison has known this by thirty years at this point, and has done nothing. The AFFS uncovered during the Victoria War that the Capellans were lying through their teeth about how much they'd disarmed, and yet Harrison doesn't seem to've done anything with that information; hell, the opening of Sword of Sedition implies that Julian - who as Prince's Champion kind of needs to know this stuff - didn't find out until very shortly prior to the novel. So, yeah, Caleb was not a good ruler by any definition - but Harrison wasn't any better, and in many ways was worse.

Mybe Harrison thought that the Republic would always exist. And from what I could gather the Republic had - despite it's ambition to demilitarize - a strong and effective military that could beat the Confederation. But on the military level he defintely had failings. Yvonne had left the Fedsuns with a sloid military force. But then complacency crept it (even social generals came to the forefront which is usually something only the Lyrans have to worry about) and the AFS lost it's edge. Best example would be the 1st Davion guards: the pride of the AFFS  ater the Jihad but at one point even weaker then National Guard units (until Julian turned the unit around). So let's see how a Julian / Erik lead AFFS can standup to the threats still looming. By the way does Eric still have contact to this private spy agency (I would wager that is the same as the one introduced in the IE source book) he was introduced to in Sword of Sedition?

Colt Ward

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #387 on: 28 April 2021, 09:13:59 »
They actually were the ones who let Julian know what was up with Caleb.
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Ramseti

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #388 on: 28 April 2021, 11:37:23 »
But then complacency crept it (even social generals came to the forefront which is usually something only the Lyrans have to worry about)
Is there anywhere that really highlights this as an issue, or is it more so just alluded to in unit descriptions? I remember reading about it with the 1DG, but can't really think of anywhere else off the top of my head.

It's kind of concerning though, given that "professionalism" has been one of their key tenents - hopefully it's not setting any real precedents for them. Palmyra wasn't exactly a complacency issue, necessarily, but ignoring doctrine and established TTP's tends to scream "unprofessional".

Kind of tricky to define the FS anymore already, aside from having March Lords who somehow usually fail to see the big picture at the most inopportune time, don't want them to lose one of the few things they usually have going for them.

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #389 on: 28 April 2021, 12:05:57 »
It's kind of concerning though, given that "professionalism" has been one of their key tenents - hopefully it's not setting any real precedents for them. Palmyra wasn't exactly a complacency issue, necessarily, but ignoring doctrine and established TTP's tends to scream "unprofessional".

Caleb was not 'professional' and thought he was invincible.

"I know what is best."

Sums up his attitude as presented- look at his early appearances out in the Periphery March and on other worlds- 'why should I be among the peons?'
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