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Author Topic: The Palmyra Disaster  (Read 13326 times)

Colt Ward

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #420 on: 03 May 2021, 15:45:18 »
When Alaric faces the Horses I think the Ravens had already arrived IIRC, he monologues about how the various Clan leaders reacted setting the stereotypes for the coming ilClan era I think.

Yori would actually be shielded b/c she is the figurehead- it would damage the Warlord's standing . . . which might be why she arranges for some important system commander to try to halt the Raven's passage.  Of course, that is pre-supposing the Ravens meet Alaric and head automatically back to the Alliance.
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Rorke

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #421 on: 03 May 2021, 18:27:53 »
The Davion Irregulars are not "guerilla/adhoc" formations, at least according
to Shattered Fortress.  It describes them as using never before seen insignia
and camo.  Recently raised, and not longstanding formations.  One of the
reasons for my optimism, prior.

Now I know Franklin when it rebelled, raised it's own militia.  But I've seen
nothing, that backs up the "guerilla" line.
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Stormlion1

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #422 on: 03 May 2021, 20:51:43 »
An interesting thought is that Alaric in Hour of the Wolf put the Jaguars resurrection as a Clan Matter as the Annihilation should have been a Clan Matter and not one that should have had a trial by the Inner Sphere. He could also use that excuse to punish the Combine for the Annihilation of the Nova Cats.
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ArkRoyalRavager

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #423 on: 04 May 2021, 03:07:48 »
The Davion Irregulars are not "guerilla/adhoc" formations, at least according
to Shattered Fortress.  It describes them as using never before seen insignia
and camo.  Recently raised, and not longstanding formations.  One of the
reasons for my optimism, prior.

Now I know Franklin when it rebelled, raised it's own militia.  But I've seen
nothing, that backs up the "guerilla" line.

The name Irregulars is telling that they are whatever survivors or resistance fighters scraped into temporary units. The AFFS has plenty of dead units to reconstitute without making the Irregulars permanent. Irregulars are guerrillas, and are the usual way to buy time while the regulars get back to shape.

ArkRoyalRavager

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #424 on: 04 May 2021, 03:16:05 »
An interesting thought is that Alaric in Hour of the Wolf put the Jaguars resurrection as a Clan Matter as the Annihilation should have been a Clan Matter and not one that should have had a trial by the Inner Sphere. He could also use that excuse to punish the Combine for the Annihilation of the Nova Cats.

He would find a way to co-opt the Horses into the new SLDF. That's his way. Perhaps a limited Trial between his command Star against the Horses command Star.

The ultimate showdown is against Liao, Kurita and possibly the Star Adders. Liao is the strongest military and closest to Terra, but Alaric can crush the Liao-Canopian-Andurien axis through a pact with the neoFWL which is fresh. Kurita will make a move on Terra and Alaric can turn it to his advantage by unleashing the Bears, Ravens and allying the Suns. Steiner will join his new SL either way once the two strongest hostile factions go down and the Horses are in prime position to exploit the undefended Falcon OZ and overstretched LCAF.

Metallgewitter

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #425 on: 04 May 2021, 03:22:47 »
The most funny thing would be if House Davion allies with the Taurian Concordat to kick the Liaos out of the Capellan March / former Taurian planets. Both Houses have lost worlds to House Liao and if the CCAf really tries to take Terra they would have to stretch their forces to the breaking point. Not to mention the FM 3145 states that House Liao has problems garrison the recently conquered planets because their military commands don'T know how to integrate planets / combat irregulars.

Rorke

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #426 on: 04 May 2021, 10:07:13 »
The name Irregulars is telling that they are whatever survivors or resistance fighters scraped into temporary units. The AFFS has plenty of dead units to reconstitute without making the Irregulars permanent. Irregulars are guerrillas, and are the usual way to buy time while the regulars get back to shape.

Well the way it's written suggests that to me.  They might well be units gathered using staffing from other
units, but even so it suggests a higher level of organisation than mere guerillas.
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Colt Ward

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #427 on: 04 May 2021, 12:14:52 »
Yes, the FS re-took the worlds and all the survivors and the guerilla fighters they organized into irregular formations were formalized as being brought into the AFFS.  This would be why they are not following any sort of doctrinal organization (like the LCT ratios) and have varying levels of equipment & composition- I think you mentioned a all vehicle Irregular unit.

But yes, it makes sense that Erik would dip into staffs, find other fast-track officers & NCOs, and (hopefully) as a last resort might have to grab some cadre from the training programs.  However, if they added too many outside officers & NCOs they would destabilize the units and cause morale problems.  Better to have new officers, NCOs, and troops slowly be added as replacements, rather than in a bulk addition.
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Hussar2

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #428 on: 04 May 2021, 16:42:27 »
I think that after the Dragoons going AWOL the Combine forces around New Avalon are probably down by as much as 50 percent (judging by the DC forces in the vicinity of New Avalon in 3145 and assuming that with Tiamat and Eruptio the DC can't spare many more units). Perhaps the Federation is capable of retaking New Avalon and turning things around a bit.

Stormlion1

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #429 on: 04 May 2021, 17:03:24 »
In many ways will New Avalon be worth retaking? The Combine is probably stripping that world of everything of value and destroying even more. At this point that world may be more of a symbol than anything. Yes symbols are important but New Avalon was a industrial powerhouse. It may be a economic drain after its retaken.
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Rorke

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #430 on: 04 May 2021, 18:05:01 »
In many ways will New Avalon be worth retaking? The Combine is probably stripping that world of everything of value and destroying even more. At this point that world may be more of a symbol than anything. Yes symbols are important but New Avalon was a industrial powerhouse. It may be a economic drain after its retaken.

I doubt they have the shipping to strip entire plants, and shift them offworld.  They're likely producing like crazy, or
best as they're able considering the likeliehood of sabotage.  It's always going to be symbolic, regardless of what
the Dracs do prior to the inevitable fight for the world. 

We're in a different universe now, things can and will be rebuilt.  But whilst it's importance industrially, was massive.
New Avalon was far from everything, sure the loss of those factories has hurt.  But the FS has other important
factory worlds, Crofton immediately comes to mind primarily.  Also I don't think in the midst of a titanic struggle
like we see now, there'll be any doubt about rebuilding where necessary.  Books can be balanced when things are
calmer, no?

I think there might be more to the Irregulars than I saw prior.  I don't think they're just guerillas, I still believe they
are a organised response.  Perhaps like the old WW2 Kampfgruppe, or as we think nowadays Battlegroups.  The
numbering, camo and insignias point towards a formal effort and plan.  I think Colt has the right of it about dipping
into regular AFFS formations. 
« Last Edit: 04 May 2021, 18:42:30 by Rorke »
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Colt Ward

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #431 on: 04 May 2021, 23:23:48 »
Which is what I said about the Irregulars . . . they were formed from military personnel and civilians who had been fighting the occupation of the Dracs.  They are no longer guerillas b/c they officially joined the national forces- but that is their background, as irregular fighting units.
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ArkRoyalRavager

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #432 on: 05 May 2021, 02:23:43 »
The most funny thing would be if House Davion allies with the Taurian Concordat to kick the Liaos out of the Capellan March / former Taurian planets. Both Houses have lost worlds to House Liao and if the CCAf really tries to take Terra they would have to stretch their forces to the breaking point. Not to mention the FM 3145 states that House Liao has problems garrison the recently conquered planets because their military commands don'T know how to integrate planets / combat irregulars.

With the way Daoshen built his cult of personality, if he abandons taking Terra at this point it would cause a lot of internal problems.

ArkRoyalRavager

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #433 on: 05 May 2021, 02:27:45 »
Well the way it's written suggests that to me.  They might well be units gathered using staffing from other
units, but even so it suggests a higher level of organisation than mere guerillas.

This is a possibility, though it is highly probable that the Irregulars were largely built from the many survivors of the initial DCMS invasion that went to ground but secretly kept in touch while their equipment were either whatever they had when going to ground or were clandestinely resupplied with new production since it would be better to route these experienced personnel the material and use them as a core to rebuild destroyed units once things stabilize compared to reconstituting dead units entirely from the ground up.

Any organization they have would be limited to whatever contact they still have with Julian's High Command.

ArkRoyalRavager

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #434 on: 05 May 2021, 02:32:19 »
I doubt they have the shipping to strip entire plants, and shift them offworld.  They're likely producing like crazy, or
best as they're able considering the likeliehood of sabotage.  It's always going to be symbolic, regardless of what
the Dracs do prior to the inevitable fight for the world. 

We're in a different universe now, things can and will be rebuilt.  But whilst it's importance industrially, was massive.
New Avalon was far from everything, sure the loss of those factories has hurt.  But the FS has other important
factory worlds, Crofton immediately comes to mind primarily.  Also I don't think in the midst of a titanic struggle
like we see now, there'll be any doubt about rebuilding where necessary.  Books can be balanced when things are
calmer, no?

Agreed. If the DCMS can muster the shipping to strip New Avalon, a lot of their units in other areas will be stranded.

Crofton is important, but Kathil would take priority as it produces everything up to WarShips. Same goes for Delavan.

Metallgewitter

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #435 on: 05 May 2021, 03:25:50 »
I think I mentioned it before but what about El Dorado? The planet was spared so far right? During the Jihad they started to build Battlemechs (the Warlord) and it seems that it's industries should be still strong and viable to easily convert to military production again. Plus the entire Periphery March (Panpour comes to mind) is still free and shouldbe able to supply ample material if the shipping lanes are still undisrupted.

Rorke

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #436 on: 05 May 2021, 03:43:10 »
I think I mentioned it before but what about El Dorado? The planet was spared so far right? During the Jihad they started to build Battlemechs (the Warlord) and it seems that it's industries should be still strong and viable to easily convert to military production again. Plus the entire Periphery March (Panpour comes to mind) is still free and shouldbe able to supply ample material if the shipping lanes are still undisrupted.

As someone who watches production centres with interest, I'm glad you mentioned El Dorado.  The Warlord from
there is important, as is the other product.  Until retaking Robinson, ED was the sole FS owned world making the
flagship Atlas III.  While Robinson has been recaptured, production at full rate might well take some time.  So El
Dorado is (assault weight wise) very important.  There's not many FS factories for that weight class, at least as
well as I can tell currently.
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ArkRoyalRavager

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #437 on: 05 May 2021, 08:07:02 »
El Dorado is right beside the Kurita salient. Hard to ship anything around, though the planetary garrisons would be formidable.

Onion2112

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #438 on: 05 May 2021, 08:13:22 »

The 4 additional units lost at New Avalon(not to mention its critical industry) created another big hole. The Davion Assault Guards RCT is another unaffordable loss.


The 4 original units on New Avalon were not lost - the 1st Avalon Hussars have been very active post the retreat - and seem to have multiple mech battalions now. The Assault Guards & New Avalon CMM were deemed not suitable for the Perceval stuff.
(I believe the New Avalon CMM traditionally were heavy weight)
The NAIS LCT were attached to the Assault Guards - so likely you’d expect a training cadre to do - they were possibly just folded in.

However the 5th unit being the 2nd Robinson Rangers may have been smashed though.

Either of the Assault Guards Battle Armour regiments could easily have contributed to the BA Companies of Davion Irregulars battalions.
« Last Edit: 05 May 2021, 09:07:57 by Onion2112 »

Onion2112

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #439 on: 05 May 2021, 08:18:28 »
Actually after looking at page 32 of Shattered Fortress again, the New Avalon CMM took to many losses to be involved in Perceval

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #440 on: 05 May 2021, 10:09:12 »
I think I mentioned it before but what about El Dorado? The planet was spared so far right? During the Jihad they started to build Battlemechs (the Warlord) and it seems that it's industries should be still strong and viable to easily convert to military production again. Plus the entire Periphery March (Panpour comes to mind) is still free and shouldbe able to supply ample material if the shipping lanes are still undisrupted.

GM´s El Dorado facility is making Atlas, Warlords and Battlemasters as far as i know. 
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MarauderD

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #441 on: 05 May 2021, 11:14:49 »
We know Robinson was making Black Knights, Ostsols, Atlas-III, and Ostscouts.  Probably still a Sentry or Watchman line still running there. 
Do we know what the state of the industry is there now that the FedSuns is holding the planet?

Also, I think I'm still bummed that the new Ostsol 8E3 isn't as fun as the old OTL-6D, which was a powerhouse. 

Colt Ward

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #442 on: 05 May 2021, 11:54:09 »
GM´s El Dorado facility is making Atlas, Warlords and Battlemasters as far as i know.

You mean they centralized the ex-pat Steiner design teams to one facility?
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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #443 on: 05 May 2021, 12:12:41 »
GM´s El Dorado facility is making Atlas, Warlords and Battlemasters as far as i know.
That's also where the MUSE WIND Rifleman was being developed, though I'm not sure if they build regular Riflemen or not.




What about New Valencia, is GM still building the Falconer, Pendragon, Victor, Blackjack-O, Avatar, and Templar III there?  I know the Blackwell Marauder II lines were destroyed in the Jihad, but clearly not everything was since the Pendragon was built there starting in 3078.
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Colt Ward

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #444 on: 05 May 2021, 12:33:21 »
Blackwell's main facilities were on Outreach?
Colt Ward

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MarauderD

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #445 on: 05 May 2021, 13:06:43 »
Blackwell's main facilities were on Outreach?

Correct--their line for the Marauder II was on Outreach, at least IIRC.  I'm pretty sure that it was left as irradiated slag, to the point that in some TRO they mentioned that House Davion didn't want to recreate the Marauder II line during the Jihad lest they attract attention from the Word of Blake. 

Arkansas Warrior

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #446 on: 05 May 2021, 13:37:14 »
It's a little bit unclear, but either Blackwell contracted GM to produce Marauder IIs on New Valencia or Blackwell had their own facilities there (maybe one first, then the other later?).  The Blakists messed the place up in the Jihad, and apparently GM bought out Blackwell's interests on-world and shut down the Marauder II line.  I try not to rely too much on Sarna, but on this their references (across TRO3039 and several JHS books) are pretty solid:


https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Marauder_II


https://www.sarna.net/wiki/General_Motors
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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #447 on: 05 May 2021, 14:29:41 »
That's also where the MUSE WIND Rifleman was being developed, though I'm not sure if they build regular Riflemen or not.


What about New Valencia, is GM still building the Falconer, Pendragon, Victor, Blackjack-O, Avatar, and Templar III there?  I know the Blackwell Marauder II lines were destroyed in the Jihad, but clearly not everything was since the Pendragon was built there starting in 3078.

AFAIK The Rifleman 3Cr was being produced on Layover during the 80s.  New Valencia was making Falconer, Blackjack Omni and
thankfully Victors.  Oh and yes Pendragons.  What they're making now I can't say for certain, the info prior came from Objectives
Fed Suns. 

There's a lot we do not know as of 3150.  Most of what we do, comes from the DA TRO stuff and might obviously not cover older
designs.
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Colt Ward

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #448 on: 05 May 2021, 14:45:39 »
Hmm . . . for Julanai . . . Danai wants to abandon the war against the FedSuns, putting her at odds for Daoshen's reaching hands.  Not saying it is exactly going to happen, but it will herald very decreased fighting on a front.

Time to kill some dragons.
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MarauderD

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Re: The Palmyra Disaster
« Reply #449 on: 05 May 2021, 15:20:54 »
Hmm . . . for Julanai . . . Danai wants to abandon the war against the FedSuns, putting her at odds for Daoshen's reaching hands.  Not saying it is exactly going to happen, but it will herald very decreased fighting on a front.

Time to kill some dragons.

From your lips to the writers ears man.  That would be dope.

 

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