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Author Topic: Was the Kathil meat-grinder necessary? (FedCom Civil War)  (Read 4628 times)

BrianDavion

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Re: Was the Kathil meat-grinder necessary? (FedCom Civil War)
« Reply #60 on: 27 January 2022, 10:38:00 »
I find victor haters tended to be divided into 3 rough groups.

Group 1: I'm more intreasted in Faction X and VSD is sucking up the air in the room by all the novels focusing on him.

Group 2: I hate House Davion and thus I hate Victor Davion

Group 3: I'm an edgy 14 year old who claims to prefer KSD cause I'm so edgey and contrary  :)

AlphaMirage

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Re: Was the Kathil meat-grinder necessary? (FedCom Civil War)
« Reply #61 on: 27 January 2022, 10:49:35 »
Group 3: I'm an edgy 14 year old who claims to prefer KSD cause I'm so edgey and contrary  :)

Ouch, I feel personally attacked (as Author of a whole FanFic universe with KSD at the center). I dislike Victor cause he killed a Smoke Jaguar Elemental with a katana on Strana Mechdy when ilKhan Osis could and should have just crushed his pathetic freeborn skull. If he died on the sands of Strana Mechdy that would have been a dramatic and interesting reversal of fortune for the whole Inner Sphere. Additionally up to that point Victor was a fine character, its only post Great Refusal that I begin to dislike him.

BrianDavion

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Re: Was the Kathil meat-grinder necessary? (FedCom Civil War)
« Reply #62 on: 27 January 2022, 10:54:01 »
Ouch, I feel personally attacked (as Author of a whole FanFic universe with KSD at the center). I dislike Victor cause he killed a Smoke Jaguar Elemental with a katana on Strana Mechdy when ilKhan Osis could and should have just crushed his pathetic freeborn skull. If he died on the sands of Strana Mechdy that would have been a dramatic and interesting reversal of fortune for the whole Inner Sphere. Additionally up to that point Victor was a fine character, its only post Great Refusal that I begin to dislike him.

I've always interpreted that scene as a deliberate "sucide by cop" on Osis' part. Osis knew his clan had been destroyed, knew the clan invasion had ended with the great refusal and did not wish to live in such a world, thus telegraphed his attack in a way that it was easy to kill him

Cannonshop

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Re: Was the Kathil meat-grinder necessary? (FedCom Civil War)
« Reply #63 on: 27 January 2022, 11:01:48 »
Ouch, I feel personally attacked (as Author of a whole FanFic universe with KSD at the center). I dislike Victor cause he killed a Smoke Jaguar Elemental with a katana on Strana Mechdy when ilKhan Osis could and should have just crushed his pathetic freeborn skull. If he died on the sands of Strana Mechdy that would have been a dramatic and interesting reversal of fortune for the whole Inner Sphere. Additionally up to that point Victor was a fine character, its only post Great Refusal that I begin to dislike him.

Funnily enough, I started disliking him when he gave up his duty for a booty-call. 

Consider his situation: a huge chunk of his mother's nation is invaded, he leaves the invaders there, to go free a foreign land, after which, he doesn't lift a finger to liberate his own countrymen.

Victor betrayed his homeland for a booty call, in the middle of a foreign invasion.  He shirked his ACTUAL duty to go play soldier, leading to losing his nation, for all his vaunted morality, he signed off on one of the scummier plans his dad hatched and blew an alliance in a very, very, very, predictable manner.  (Lie to a grieving parent, then get caught-which you would be no matter how clever the lie? Oh, that's ****** brilliant.  yeah, we'll do that instead of being a man about it and telling the truth, an act that might have actually SAVED that alliance.)

In my opinion, Victor and Katy were neither one a worthy or legitimate leader, and their mutual temper tantrum did more damage to their nation for no good reason than the actual invaders did...while giving aid and comfort to said invaders.

As for Katherine, I've always held a certain amount of contempt for absentee landlords.  Her haring off to New Avalon proved she would rather be a princess on New Avalon than an Archon in the Lyran Commonwealth, I can't understand anyone calling themselves 'Lyran' and 'Patriotic' staying with her after she did that, except that the plot demanded it.

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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Was the Kathil meat-grinder necessary? (FedCom Civil War)
« Reply #64 on: 27 January 2022, 11:18:22 »
As for Katherine, I've always held a certain amount of contempt for absentee landlords.  Her haring off to New Avalon proved she would rather be a princess on New Avalon than an Archon in the Lyran Commonwealth, I can't understand anyone calling themselves 'Lyran' and 'Patriotic' staying with her after she did that, except that the plot demanded it.

That part, at least, is believable thanks to numerous examples in modern politics.
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Lord Harlock

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Re: Was the Kathil meat-grinder necessary? (FedCom Civil War)
« Reply #65 on: 27 January 2022, 12:08:06 »
I wonder what the situation would have been like if the Falcons had been the targeted Clan?

Colt Ward

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Re: Was the Kathil meat-grinder necessary? (FedCom Civil War)
« Reply #66 on: 27 January 2022, 12:23:06 »
I wonder what the situation would have been like if the Falcons had been the targeted Clan?

See, that was my problem with Operation Hammerfall . . . you have a really really weak neighbor though that border is stable . . . Tamarind and Marik can be played off against their internal FWL neighbors.  Heck, the Regulans regularly bought Lyran mechs & tanks so they clearly had proto-state influence!  The Falcons in 3133 have no such stable border (Wolves/Horses) . . . in fact, when three Galaxies  hit Chaffee, you KNOW a certain amount of the Falcons strength have been sent off and due to interstellar communication they will have a time calling them back.  Check the AARs and you will discover they had a lot of green troops trying to bulk out their formations . . .

THAT is the best chance the Lyrans have had since 3050 to push back on the Falcon OZ!  You have the Wolf Dragoons and Kell Hounds in your pocket, your military is intact . . . and all you have to worry about on the other side of your nation is perhaps the Marik-Stewart Commonwealth.  Go kill the birds!  IF you wound them enough and they shift forces, the Horses and Crusader Wolves could take bites out of them as well!
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Cannonshop

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Re: Was the Kathil meat-grinder necessary? (FedCom Civil War)
« Reply #67 on: 27 January 2022, 12:28:43 »
See, that was my problem with Operation Hammerfall . . . you have a really really weak neighbor though that border is stable . . . Tamarind and Marik can be played off against their internal FWL neighbors.  Heck, the Regulans regularly bought Lyran mechs & tanks so they clearly had proto-state influence!  The Falcons in 3133 have no such stable border (Wolves/Horses) . . . in fact, when three Galaxies  hit Chaffee, you KNOW a certain amount of the Falcons strength have been sent off and due to interstellar communication they will have a time calling them back.  Check the AARs and you will discover they had a lot of green troops trying to bulk out their formations . . .

THAT is the best chance the Lyrans have had since 3050 to push back on the Falcon OZ!  You have the Wolf Dragoons and Kell Hounds in your pocket, your military is intact . . . and all you have to worry about on the other side of your nation is perhaps the Marik-Stewart Commonwealth.  Go kill the birds!  IF you wound them enough and they shift forces, the Horses and Crusader Wolves could take bites out of them as well!

But see, you're talking logic and sense here, both have been commodities short in the Lyran state since Katrina (the real one, not that half-davion bitch) died.  The Logical move would've been to go after the Jade Falcons because they're the ones who've been occupying your worlds and threatening (and occasionally more than threatening) your border, they're also the larger and more existential threat.  The move on Marik-Stewart made zero strategic OR tactical sense, and even if it had been successful, it would have gained the Commonwealth not even so much as some breathing room.

It's enough to make one wonder if Mel wasn't a double put there by Stone to weaken the Commonwealth in preparation for Clarion Call.
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Middcore

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Re: Was the Kathil meat-grinder necessary? (FedCom Civil War)
« Reply #68 on: 27 January 2022, 12:36:35 »
I don't think it's fair to blame Victor for the new SL collectively making a decision to go after the Jaguars. The reasoning, as I've always understood it, was that the Jaguars were the most brutal of the invading Clans and thus had it coming, so to speak.

There's a case to be made the target should have been the Wolves, as the strongest of the invaders, to really send a message, but this was less feasible for a lot of both Watsonian and Doylist reasons.

Any time after Bulldog/Serpent, Victor doesn't have the power to call a crusade against a Clan. Any time before that it's militarily unfeasible - if the FedCom while it was still united was capable of just punting the Falcons (and Vipers) in the 3050's prior to Katherine pulling the Lyran half out, they would have done so, and asking Victor to go do it after that is a bit much. Coventry is one thing but letting Victor lead some massive campaign along the whole OZ border doesn't strike me as something Katherine would have been too thrilled with, hell she probably would have tried to assassinate him in the middle of it.

Colt Ward

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Re: Was the Kathil meat-grinder necessary? (FedCom Civil War)
« Reply #69 on: 27 January 2022, 12:40:47 »
Actually, both the Wolves and Falcons were discarded because they were the weakest Clans at that time.  After the Refusal War, the Bears and Jaguars were perceived as the strongest . . . the Jags were good at projecting that image, it was all they really had at the time.

Coventry?  Lol, she was trying to get him and all the 'disloyal' forces with him killed.
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AlphaMirage

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Re: Was the Kathil meat-grinder necessary? (FedCom Civil War)
« Reply #70 on: 27 January 2022, 12:52:39 »
Coventry?  Lol, she was trying to get him and all the 'disloyal' forces with him killed.

And she almost succeeded too.

Who would have thought the Falcons would leave with hegira to go smash her boyfriend's clan in the face again.

Certainly not Katherine unfortunately.

Middcore

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Re: Was the Kathil meat-grinder necessary? (FedCom Civil War)
« Reply #71 on: 27 January 2022, 13:04:14 »
Coventry?  Lol, she was trying to get him and all the 'disloyal' forces with him killed.

All the more support for my stance that expecting Victor to go wage total war against the Falcons is unreasonable.

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Re: Was the Kathil meat-grinder necessary? (FedCom Civil War)
« Reply #72 on: 27 January 2022, 16:46:41 »
That part, at least, is believable thanks to numerous examples in modern politics.
Katherine's hypocrisy and her propaganda being 'Katrina' - sure. But Victor being somehow the big Davion... (to the point that he is often referred to as Victor Davion but never Victor Steiner)?

A man that was raised on Tharkad, speaks German, spend his whole AFFC career in Lyran units, was in love with a Kurita woman ...and he is the big Davion while Katherine is the big Steiner?
I never understood it but people in-universe seem to naturally accept that order more often than not. It is helped by the matter that few authors cared to elaborate why that is. On top of my head I can only think of Keith's Blood of Heroes throne room scene.

Middcore

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Re: Was the Kathil meat-grinder necessary? (FedCom Civil War)
« Reply #73 on: 27 January 2022, 16:54:10 »
It is helped by the matter that few authors cared to elaborate why that is. On top of my head I can only think of Keith's Blood of Heroes throne room scene.

Keith (or I guess the Keith brothers) seemed to be rather at pains to make Victor look politically awkward in a way that doesn't really line up with his portrayal in other books. 

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Was the Kathil meat-grinder necessary? (FedCom Civil War)
« Reply #74 on: 27 January 2022, 17:46:39 »
Katherine's hypocrisy and her propaganda being 'Katrina' - sure. But Victor being somehow the big Davion... (to the point that he is often referred to as Victor Davion but never Victor Steiner)?

A man that was raised on Tharkad, speaks German, spend his whole AFFC career in Lyran units, was in love with a Kurita woman ...and he is the big Davion while Katherine is the big Steiner?
I never understood it but people in-universe seem to naturally accept that order more often than not. It is helped by the matter that few authors cared to elaborate why that is. On top of my head I can only think of Keith's Blood of Heroes throne room scene.

Well, it probably helps that Victor himself never seemed to ever say anything against that portrayal.  And his relationship with and contrast to his father were always at the forefront of practically everything while his relationship with his mother was barely ever mentioned.  But yeah, didn't like that scene in Blood of Heroes.
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BrianDavion

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Re: Was the Kathil meat-grinder necessary? (FedCom Civil War)
« Reply #75 on: 27 January 2022, 19:57:37 »
Well, it probably helps that Victor himself never seemed to ever say anything against that portrayal.  And his relationship with and contrast to his father were always at the forefront of practically everything while his relationship with his mother was barely ever mentioned.  But yeah, didn't like that scene in Blood of Heroes.

I recall someone pointing out that it's even worse when you factor in that we see the scene described in a stackpole novel that DOESN'T have him make that awkward mistake

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Was the Kathil meat-grinder necessary? (FedCom Civil War)
« Reply #76 on: 27 January 2022, 20:35:37 »
That's pretty bad.
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Coldstone

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Re: Was the Kathil meat-grinder necessary? (FedCom Civil War)
« Reply #77 on: 28 January 2022, 06:47:06 »
Victor Steiner Davion.... The Luke Skywalker of the BT universe.

Edit: I am a Victor Follower myself. I never liked Katherine. Even before it was clear in the novels she was the mastermind behind Melissas Death.

I think one problem is: Many people judge both, Vic and Kathy by what they know of them in the Novels. But THAT is not the case for the billions of people in their realm.

Many people have problems to separate their indiviual knowledge of the Universe with that Knowledge of their own Battletech character. I estimate that ocer 90% of the Novel knowledge is NOT KNOWN by the majority of fellas in both the Fed Suns and the Lyran Commonwealth/Alliance.
« Last Edit: 28 January 2022, 06:51:51 by Coldstone »
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Reaved

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Re: Was the Kathil meat-grinder necessary? (FedCom Civil War)
« Reply #78 on: 28 January 2022, 07:47:58 »
I find victor haters tended to be divided into 3 rough groups.

Group 1: I'm more intreasted in Faction X and VSD is sucking up the air in the room by all the novels focusing on him.

Group 2: I hate House Davion and thus I hate Victor Davion

Group 3: I'm an edgy 14 year old who claims to prefer KSD cause I'm so edgey and contrary  :)
I find it extremely tedious when an entire universe has to be bent into a pretzel in order to justify how 'awesome' a character is.

Everything 'VSD and the Superfriends TM' did was totally awesome and amazing and the bestest. Anyone who disagreed with him was cartoonishly evil and mindnumbingly stupid. There was never any tension or interest in events, because VSD would always win and the 'the bad guys' would always lose. More recent attempts to actually portray believeable consequences for his teenage melodramatics were a welcome effort to salavage some sort of believability and stakes in the universe.

Phelan and the Wolves were the same. After the first Phelan book there was never any doubt that they would be the bestest clan, that they would win on Tukayid (or even that they would be the first to Terra). At least Phelan wasn't quite as bad as VSD. I don't remember the various Falcon Khans or Waterly being desperate to sleep with him, as Omi Kurita and Isis 'Sure, you tried to replace my brother with a clone but that's totally fine' Marik were with VSD*. Was Kali going to be the next notch on his bedpost?

Even in death VSD still needs to be the bestest (I'm looking at you, Alaric).

*Do Isis and Omi ever get any characterisation in those novels that isn't entirely defined through the lens of VSD?

Coldstone

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Re: Was the Kathil meat-grinder necessary? (FedCom Civil War)
« Reply #79 on: 28 January 2022, 08:24:32 »
I think it would have been fine if the famours Adam Steiner shoulder to head shot would actually have hit Prometheus' head. Would have lead to very interesting shenanigans...
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Re: Was the Kathil meat-grinder necessary? (FedCom Civil War)
« Reply #80 on: 28 January 2022, 10:27:33 »
I find it extremely tedious when an entire universe has to be bent into a pretzel in order to justify how 'awesome' a character is.

Everything 'VSD and the Superfriends TM' did was totally awesome and amazing and the bestest. Anyone who disagreed with him was cartoonishly evil and mindnumbingly stupid. There was never any tension or interest in events, because VSD would always win and the 'the bad guys' would always lose. More recent attempts to actually portray believeable consequences for his teenage melodramatics were a welcome effort to salavage some sort of believability and stakes in the universe.

Phelan and the Wolves were the same. After the first Phelan book there was never any doubt that they would be the bestest clan, that they would win on Tukayid (or even that they would be the first to Terra). At least Phelan wasn't quite as bad as VSD. I don't remember the various Falcon Khans or Waterly being desperate to sleep with him, as Omi Kurita and Isis 'Sure, you tried to replace my brother with a clone but that's totally fine' Marik were with VSD*. Was Kali going to be the next notch on his bedpost?

Even in death VSD still needs to be the bestest (I'm looking at you, Alaric).

*Do Isis and Omi ever get any characterisation in those novels that isn't entirely defined through the lens of VSD?

Isis and Joshua had no blood relation, though I suppose she didn't know that at the time.  But she also wasn't close to the Marik family in general because she was illegitimate and spent most of her post-teenage years on Sian with Sunny Boy.

Isis gets some screen time with Sun Tzu and other Cappies in the novels that detail the run-up to the Xin Sheng invasion of St. Ives, but otherwise she's mostly seen through VSD's eyes.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Was the Kathil meat-grinder necessary? (FedCom Civil War)
« Reply #81 on: 28 January 2022, 10:54:01 »
Everything 'VSD and the Superfriends TM' did was totally awesome and amazing and the bestest. Anyone who disagreed with him was cartoonishly evil and mindnumbingly stupid. There was never any tension or interest in events, because VSD would always win and the 'the bad guys' would always lose. More recent attempts to actually portray believeable consequences for his teenage melodramatics were a welcome effort to salavage some sort of believability and stakes in the universe.

Did . . . you miss the Capellans for the last 25+ IRL years?  Sunny hated Victor & Kai and managed to put together a pretty solid run against Victor and the FedSuns in general.
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Middcore

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Re: Was the Kathil meat-grinder necessary? (FedCom Civil War)
« Reply #82 on: 28 January 2022, 10:58:12 »
Did . . . you miss the Capellans for the last 25+ IRL years?  Sunny hated Victor & Kai and managed to put together a pretty solid run against Victor and the FedSuns in general.

Forget it, Colt. It's Chinatown. The "Victor/House Davion always wins" meme is immortal.



Cannonshop

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Re: Was the Kathil meat-grinder necessary? (FedCom Civil War)
« Reply #83 on: 28 January 2022, 12:07:29 »
Okay, let us return to the original topic (or at least, the title of the thread).

I'ma gon' repeat my statement: It wasn't necessary so much as inevitable.

The Steiner-Davion civil war was a war without real 'fronts'-the supporters of each side (and the people trying-and-failing, to remain out of it) were scattered and interleavened among each other for the most part, with this being especially true in critical locations like Kathil.

BECAUSE of how the forces and sides were mixed in, the fighting on Kathil was simply inevitable, but the entire war was unnecessary.  Victor had, before it even began, abandoned his role as Archon-Prince, and Katherine's secession (if examined truthfully) voided her own claim as well-at least, in any sort of legal sense.  Unfortunately, Feudal systems don't rely on the law, they rely on personal fealty-Katherine built up quite a lot of influence and personal loyalties, enough to compromise significant portions of two nations simultaneously, while Victor absolutely abandoned his duty-so he could get laid.

Might be a great love story, but Victor's choice to give up his job for Omi basically put the whole nation into a leadership crisis, one that Katherine was all too well equipped to step into, but which she had no legitimate business stepping into.

the destruction and the grinding hell of Kathil as a front, was therefore both unnecessary, and inevitable.

Would that someone on the Fedsuns side, with Victor's abdication, have pointed out that they had a perfectly good candidate for First Prince, in the form of Peter-which would've been largely satisfactory under Fedsuns Law, given Peter had actually served at least PART of his required military time, was of the right bloodline, and was a direct and legitimate son of Hans-but there's no advantage for political operators in doing that and he was in the wrong half of the dual monarchy at the time and would have required someone to actually REMEMBER HE EXISTED.

(Eventually, someone did, and Morgan Kell recruited him to remove krazy auntie Nondi who'd been running the Lyran half into the ground on Katherine's behalf...but too late.)

This is the thing, though, isn't it?  some of Hans's less brilliant traits included picking some pretty poor staff, due to his actually having the talent to be a bit of a micromanager (thus, depriving the realm of competent bureaucracy that could say 'Nah, princess, you're not legitimate' and make it stick.)

Kathil happened because the governments involved weren't...well...competent.

or at least, not competently composed, not competently led at the middle levels, and structurally very much in the mold of 'following orders even if they don't make sense'-and this goes for both the Kathrinist, and Victorist, factions-their loyalties were not to the nation, the realm or the law, but to personalities, and that ALWAYS ends badly in the final tally for the common people.
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May your chains set lightly upon you,
and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."-Samuel Adams

Colt Ward

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Re: Was the Kathil meat-grinder necessary? (FedCom Civil War)
« Reply #84 on: 28 January 2022, 12:38:43 »
I think part of the problem with Kathil, and the FCCW in general, is more OOC problems they had to contort to work In Universe.

Namely, American authors had little understanding of the historical issues with succession and transfers of power in monarchies.  I hold to the position of a historically literate Archon-Prince Victor would have never let little sis run half the realm as a regent- Yvonne would never have been regent either!  You pick someone who can never take power themselves, because history shows if they can- they will try.'

Victor should have-
had spies on his sibling's staff
If for some wild/crazy reason Katherine had to be regent, someone was placed to push her down a long set of stairs
Had supreme generals in each side that owed their loyalties to him- No Auntie Nondi among the seniority of the Lyran half of AFFS on Tharkad . . . go be Bolan Theatre CO
His mother's clients in the Estates General SHOULD have gone to him rather than Katherine- Kat should have had to recruit from the opposition
Been married off by Hanse, or engaged long ago . . . like say to the Tamar female heir when he had to bounce part of that realm into the FRR
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Re: Was the Kathil meat-grinder necessary? (FedCom Civil War)
« Reply #85 on: 28 January 2022, 12:45:54 »
Forget it, Colt. It's Chinatown. The "Victor/House Davion always wins" meme is immortal.

Sadly, it is just like Davion Admirals first instinct is to ram their opponent. If that story element disappears, I would be happier.

Okay, let us return to the original topic (or at least, the title of the thread).

I'ma gon' repeat my statement: It wasn't necessary so much as inevitable.

The Steiner-Davion civil war was a war without real 'fronts'-the supporters of each side (and the people trying-and-failing, to remain out of it) were scattered and interleavened among each other for the most part, with this being especially true in critical locations like Kathil.

BECAUSE of how the forces and sides were mixed in, the fighting on Kathil was simply inevitable, but the entire war was unnecessary.  Victor had, before it even began, abandoned his role as Archon-Prince, and Katherine's secession (if examined truthfully) voided her own claim as well-at least, in any sort of legal sense.  Unfortunately, Feudal systems don't rely on the law, they rely on personal fealty-Katherine built up quite a lot of influence and personal loyalties, enough to compromise significant portions of two nations simultaneously, while Victor absolutely abandoned his duty-so he could get laid.

Might be a great love story, but Victor's choice to give up his job for Omi basically put the whole nation into a leadership crisis, one that Katherine was all too well equipped to step into, but which she had no legitimate business stepping into.

the destruction and the grinding hell of Kathil as a front, was therefore both unnecessary, and inevitable.

Would that someone on the Fedsuns side, with Victor's abdication, have pointed out that they had a perfectly good candidate for First Prince, in the form of Peter-which would've been largely satisfactory under Fedsuns Law, given Peter had actually served at least PART of his required military time, was of the right bloodline, and was a direct and legitimate son of Hans-but there's no advantage for political operators in doing that and he was in the wrong half of the dual monarchy at the time and would have required someone to actually REMEMBER HE EXISTED.

(Eventually, someone did, and Morgan Kell recruited him to remove krazy auntie Nondi who'd been running the Lyran half into the ground on Katherine's behalf...but too late.)

This is the thing, though, isn't it?  some of Hans's less brilliant traits included picking some pretty poor staff, due to his actually having the talent to be a bit of a micromanager (thus, depriving the realm of competent bureaucracy that could say 'Nah, princess, you're not legitimate' and make it stick.)

Kathil happened because the governments involved weren't...well...competent.

or at least, not competently composed, not competently led at the middle levels, and structurally very much in the mold of 'following orders even if they don't make sense'-and this goes for both the Kathrinist, and Victorist, factions-their loyalties were not to the nation, the realm or the law, but to personalities, and that ALWAYS ends badly in the final tally for the common people.

And now, I am thinking about my Enigma Fanfic where I had Quintus Allard resurrect the Suns in 3061. I really need to revamp and revise that story.

Reaved

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Re: Was the Kathil meat-grinder necessary? (FedCom Civil War)
« Reply #86 on: 28 January 2022, 12:54:05 »
Did . . . you miss the Capellans for the last 25+ IRL years?  Sunny hated Victor & Kai and managed to put together a pretty solid run against Victor and the FedSuns in general.
Sun-Tzu isn't contextually relevant to a statement that says 'anyone who hates VSD is either jealous or an idiot.' But I might have missed the part where first Natasha Kerensky falls in love with Sun-Tzu and they have a child, then he hooks up with Yvonne Steiner-Davion? That probably came after he defeated Victor in a Mech duel and then wrestled an Elemental Khan into submission in a circle of Equals and was declared Ilkhan?

It's also possible that just because other characters get a similar treatment at points (do you remember Sun-Tzu on Outreach? Is there a similar set of scenes for VSD?) doesn't magically make it okay (for any of them).
Forget it, Colt. It's Chinatown. The "Victor/House Davion always wins" meme is immortal.
So Victor wasn't perfect? I guess no one in this thread is suggesting how out of character it is for him to even make an awkward mistake in a single scene, let alone lack acumen in even one arena? Victor is both simultaneously so perfect that he can't be criticised and so deeply flawed that any implication that all his victories weren't totally believable is, apparently, a meme. All things to all people all of the time and no difference of opinion is valid.

I can't imagine why he isn't more popular.

As for Kathil, sunk cost fallacy is a fundmental human trait and the larger the costs the harder it is to walk away. As was stated much earlier in the thread, a fight at such a strategically vital planet as Kathil was inevitable and human nature made it's continuation nigh-inevitable too.

BrianDavion

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Re: Was the Kathil meat-grinder necessary? (FedCom Civil War)
« Reply #87 on: 28 January 2022, 13:20:05 »
I think part of the problem with Kathil, and the FCCW in general, is more OOC problems they had to contort to work In Universe.

Namely, American authors had little understanding of the historical issues with succession and transfers of power in monarchies.  I hold to the position of a historically literate Archon-Prince Victor would have never let little sis run half the realm as a regent- Yvonne would never have been regent either!  You pick someone who can never take power themselves, because history shows if they can- they will try.'

Victor should have-
had spies on his sibling's staff
If for some wild/crazy reason Katherine had to be regent, someone was placed to push her down a long set of stairs
Had supreme generals in each side that owed their loyalties to him- No Auntie Nondi among the seniority of the Lyran half of AFFS on Tharkad . . . go be Bolan Theatre CO
His mother's clients in the Estates General SHOULD have gone to him rather than Katherine- Kat should have had to recruit from the opposition
Been married off by Hanse, or engaged long ago . . . like say to the Tamar female heir when he had to bounce part of that realm into the FRR

I agree, I've been saying for YEARS that "every one who wants to write for battletech should go out buy and play crusader kings 2 (this was before CK3 came out) because yeah some of the stuff about Battletech's writing is very.......... Americanized. things like sucessor lords not marrying until their late 30s. etc

Middcore

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Re: Was the Kathil meat-grinder necessary? (FedCom Civil War)
« Reply #88 on: 28 January 2022, 13:28:07 »
do you remember Sun-Tzu on Outreach? Is there a similar set of scenes for VSD?

Do you remember how it was revealed all of those scenes were Sun-Tzu intentionally obfuscating his own cleverness so his enemies would underestimate him because his entire character is being the never-outschemed, ever-victorious Machiavelli of the universe? Not sure what point you're trying to make by bringing that up.

I will seriously never understand why people get so mad over Victor supposedly having this charmed existence. The guy's life, for most of the period actually depicted in fiction, basically sucks. His dad dies and unexpectedly puts him in charge in the middle of a war when he's clearly not ready. His mother gets murdered by his sister but people apparently blame him for it. He falls in love with a woman he can never be with and barely gets to see her a few times before she gets murdered by his sister too. His brother gets murdered along the way (also by his sister, at least as far as he knows) just as a throw in. His military accomplishments, which are impressive by any measure, win him respect from other soldiers but zero appreciation from anybody else. He just gets pulled from one crisis and tragedy to the next. I guess there was a period of his life during the Republic when he's actually seen as the respected general and elder statesman, but we never get a look at any of that.

Do I think he's a very compelling character? No. Whether due to lack of ability or lack of interest, Stackpole and Coleman never gave him the depth needed to really bring out the pathos in his life. Do I read his story and say "I wanna be this guy, he wins all the time"? Heck no. I can't imagine anybody over the age of 13 thinking that.

CVB

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Re: Was the Kathil meat-grinder necessary? (FedCom Civil War)
« Reply #89 on: 28 January 2022, 13:41:23 »
I think part of the problem with Kathil, and the FCCW in general, is more OOC problems they had to contort to work In Universe.

Namely, American authors had little understanding of the historical issues with succession and transfers of power in monarchies.  I hold to the position of a historically literate Archon-Prince Victor would have never let little sis run half the realm as a regent- Yvonne would never have been regent either!  You pick someone who can never take power themselves, because history shows if they can- they will try.'

Victor should have-
had spies on his sibling's staff
If for some wild/crazy reason Katherine had to be regent, someone was placed to push her down a long set of stairs
Had supreme generals in each side that owed their loyalties to him- No Auntie Nondi among the seniority of the Lyran half of AFFS on Tharkad . . . go be Bolan Theatre CO
His mother's clients in the Estates General SHOULD have gone to him rather than Katherine- Kat should have had to recruit from the opposition
Been married off by Hanse, or engaged long ago . . . like say to the Tamar female heir when he had to bounce part of that realm into the FRR
:thumbsup:
Complete agreement. Just to add, whoever gets selected as regent should not only be chosen by lack of any legal right to the throne, but if possible also by a lack of his own heir and low chances (age, health reasons) of beget one to eliminate the idea to found his/her own dynasty. That's why in medieval times, offices like chancellor or justicar were most often filled by clerics. Not only because they could read and write, but because celibacy hindered them to have sons - at least legitimate ones.

And another one, Hanse and Melissa should have thought about the old feudal rule of thumb "one heir and one spare". Having too many possible heirs is almost as bad as too few. (Also see Janos Marik!)
"Wars result when one side either misjudges its chances or wishes to commit suicide; and not even Masada began as a suicide attempt. In general, both warring parties expect to win. In the event, they are wrong more than half the time."
- David Drake

I'm willing to suspend my disbelief, but I'm not willing to hang it by the neck until it's dead, dead, dead!

 

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