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Author Topic: Enemies on the boarder  (Read 1753 times)

Cazaril

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Enemies on the boarder
« on: 02 August 2013, 16:46:29 »
After putting together a raw list of canon industrial facilities in the Inner Sphere (3025), I am now working backwards and making my own Objectives Raids style source....

While trying to figure out which of a couple of manufacturers a particular component might come from, I decided that the best way to make it a bit more logical was to map the each sources and select based on distance (which would equal money too) and not so much on "cool name"... What I'm finding is troubling.

I'll assume that some of these worlds with facilities have been the subject of a concentrated effort to acquire them, but once you have them, why not move the facilities out... Why leave them on the border to be reclaimed by the person you took them from?

Remember... This is 3025. So you can't just build a new one. At most, you can hope to discover enough of a ruined one to get it working again... Obviously that also means that at least someone has the talent to bring a line back from severe maintenance issues... There are references to Mech plants being moved, so this shouldn't be a radical thought...

And I'm not suggesting this should happen overnight... Moving even one line should be a major affair (not even including the people who worked there getting more then a little upset)... But it should be possible over a decade... Shut the line down. Box it. Move it. Rebuild it. Get it going, while you shut the next one down...

I know there is a reference to a full-automated line, that they are afraid to shut down because they don't know if they will be able to get it restarted, but the others should all be candidates.

Or am I missing something?

Caz


ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Enemies on the boarder
« Reply #1 on: 02 August 2013, 17:24:16 »
I think your best bet would be to get a copy of TRO 3050 and if you can find it, the old Objective Raids sourcebook.  Most of the things still in production in the early 3050s were older machines; you can take the canon production list (with a grain of salt) and then simply strike all the new-tech producers.  It's likely that most companies simply upgraded components - so the company that made, say, 300XL engines in Objective Raids simply made 300s in the older days.  Eliminate all the mech designs that are actually new, assume that the various upgraded models were in production in their low-tech capacity previously, and I think you'll be pretty bloody close to a proper picture of the IS.

If you don't have OR, then you're going to have to fish carefully through 3039, and check with MadCapellan's OR 3067.  Find mention of who manufactured what weapon in the TRO, then look and see where MadCap put them in his (based-on-canon) unofficial book.  He is one of the fact-checkers and loves all the nitpicky details, so he'd definitely be someone to trust as far as veracity.

MarauderD

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Re: Enemies on the boarder
« Reply #2 on: 02 August 2013, 17:55:19 »
MadCap made an Objective Raids for 3067?  Where can I find that?

snewsom2997

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Re: Enemies on the boarder
« Reply #3 on: 02 August 2013, 17:59:23 »
MadCap made an Objective Raids for 3067?  Where can I find that?

I have seen it on scribd.

Dreyf

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Re: Enemies on the boarder
« Reply #4 on: 02 August 2013, 19:17:34 »
In 3025, how many Great Houses can afford to have a 'Mech line(s) out of action for a decade or more? 

Cazaril

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Re: Enemies on the boarder
« Reply #5 on: 02 August 2013, 20:26:25 »
I think your best bet would be to get a copy of TRO 3050 and if you can find it, the old Objective Raids sourcebook. 

Already have my list of facilities... Now I'm working to make my own Objective Raids:3025

In 3025, how many Great Houses can afford to have a 'Mech line(s) out of action for a decade or more?

Ok... But its a case of;

Have it out of action for a decade, but move it to the interior where it is less likely to be raided and less likely to suffer downtime to attack.

OR

Leave it on the boarder and possibly have the world captured (and you lose everything until you take it back) and/or have the facility be shut down because it's been attacked and it took damage.

The only thing I can think of, is that the facilities are off limits for the most part... Part of the whole "You capture the tech, You don't destroy the tech" philosophy of the 3025 era (unlike in later storylines, where they destroy factories and nuke planets again... Ah! Progress)... I want to say that in "Wolves on the Boarder", when they attacked (was it Quentin and Independence Weaponry), they left it intact, but pillaged the computers for valuable data/secrets...

If that is the case, it make sense not to move them. But if they are constantly under the threat of being destroyed, I just can't see leaving such a big juicy target, what is most times, only a jump over the line.

Caz

FedSunsBorn

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Re: Enemies on the boarder
« Reply #6 on: 02 August 2013, 20:53:02 »
Maybe it's not just the factory itself that is the problem but also the supply lines that keep the factory running? Nearby supplies of certain metals and rare materials may only be found on nearby worlds that are close to that factory planet and if the factory is moved light years away production will be even slower than it already is?
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Dreyf

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Re: Enemies on the boarder
« Reply #7 on: 02 August 2013, 22:51:47 »
Maybe it's not just the factory itself that is the problem but also the supply lines that keep the factory running? Nearby supplies of certain metals and rare materials may only be found on nearby worlds that are close to that factory planet and if the factory is moved light years away production will be even slower than it already is?

This is a consideration as well.  Do you move all of the specialty refineries and component factories and establish new supply lines and find new sources of minerals as needed?  Or do you leave those facilities in place and hope that they don't come under attack and still shut down your 'Mech factories from a lack of needed parts?

Cazaril

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Re: Enemies on the boarder
« Reply #8 on: 03 August 2013, 15:49:54 »
This is a consideration as well.  Do you move all of the specialty refineries and component factories and establish new supply lines and find new sources of minerals as needed?  Or do you leave those facilities in place and hope that they don't come under attack and still shut down your 'Mech factories from a lack of needed parts?

The same could be said of any company on Earth, and they move stuff all the time... Granted, the distances are longer.

GM Locomotive in Erie, PA (North-Western Pennsylvania, USA), has been slowly moving out department after department, until it went from being a manufacturer, to just an assembler, and now even that is moving out... Departments that had been out-sourced, now had to ship their product to Erie. They had to find new sources of raw materials, and set up new supply lines. Also have to worry about local issues of that may affect their sources, and their transported goods... They are doing this purely for economic reasons, and this is no little 2-cent part either. It's a 200+ ton trains...

So basically it's the same thing... You move the factory... You either move the component supplier, or you get new ones... You might be taking advantage of a mining operation, but you move to a world with promise, shift your operation to that, and either continue to mine the operation you have knowing you have a back up.

As for stuff coming under attack... Which is more likely to come under attack... A world with a Mech facility and other resources, or a world that has some resources, but nothing tempting like a Mech facility on it?... And if you lose a world, which would you rather lose; All of that facility, or Part of that facility?

Going back to my example... If those trains were vital to the security of the United States, and Canada was a hostile world power, I'd like to believe that GM and/or the US government might want to pull them back from the board... What I can't understand is why the House leaders of the Inner Sphere wouldn't also.

Caz

Syzyx

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Re: Enemies on the boarder
« Reply #9 on: 03 August 2013, 17:49:26 »
My uneducated opinion is that the issue is two-fold. One: the techs of the Inner Sphere don't likely think they know how to move the stuff and get it working again back in 3025. Two: the populace of the world that relies on that factory don't really care who's in charge so long as their livlihood isn't threatened. Once you say you're taking the factory away then you have a usually ambivalent populace calling up the enemy to protect them from you and keeping the factory where it is.
But as a matter of fact I was quite busy getting potty-trained at the time and had no time for interstellar politics.- ykonoclast

Dreyf

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Re: Enemies on the boarder
« Reply #10 on: 03 August 2013, 19:48:32 »
My uneducated opinion is that the issue is two-fold. One: the techs of the Inner Sphere don't likely think they know how to move the stuff and get it working again back in 3025. Two: the populace of the world that relies on that factory don't really care who's in charge so long as their livlihood isn't threatened. Once you say you're taking the factory away then you have a usually ambivalent populace calling up the enemy to protect them from you and keeping the factory where it is.

This is a good point.

Quote
The same could be said of any company on Earth, and they move stuff all the time... Granted, the distances are longer

Don't discount the importance of transportation to the equation.  The lack of transport capacity during the 3025 period is a serious consideration.

Honestly, is it really even that big of a deal.  After the 1st & 2nd SW how many of the border factory worlds changed hands?  The CapCon factories don't count since during this period I am not sure they really have anything that could be considered an interior to move factories too. 

Which border factories during this period do you think should be moved?

Cazaril

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Re: Enemies on the boarder
« Reply #11 on: 04 August 2013, 17:32:56 »
Honestly, is it really even that big of a deal.  After the 1st & 2nd SW how many of the border factory worlds changed hands?  The CapCon factories don't count since during this period I am not sure they really have anything that could be considered an interior to move factories too. 

Which border factories during this period do you think should be moved?

Not necessarily true...

Davion got Marduk (and Norse BattleMech Works) from Kurita
Marik got Asuncion (and a Earthwerks Plant) from Liao and Kalidasa (and Kali Yama Weapons Industries) from Steiner

and those are just quick examples (because I'm pressed for time to look for all the others)...

As for which factories... Plot out the following on a 3025 map and look up what they produce

Davion
Quentin
Errai
Addicks
Ozawa
Schedar
Axton
Mendham
Galtor III
Marduk

Kurita
Proserpina
Al Na'ir
Kessel
Orestes
Satalice

Steiner (who are in pretty good shape)
New Earth
New Kyoto
Gienah

Marik
Kalidasa
Oliver
Bernardo
Asuncion
Carbonis
Calloway VI
Shiro III
Andurien
Lopez

Liao... Ok, They are a thin wedge, but these are right on the line
Tikonov
Styk
Ares
St. Ives
Betelguese
Bithinia
Campertown
Texlos

Note - I'm using maps for my universe for quick access... Some sites mentioned may be speculation, or I added them.

Granted, some only make parts, but those parts are essential... And to lose those locals would definitely hurt the war effort.

Caz

Syzyx

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Re: Enemies on the boarder
« Reply #12 on: 04 August 2013, 19:38:42 »
This question really got my attention and I've been putting more thought into it (than I probably should). My earlier points are more or less valid but not what I have come to think are the biggest reason not to move those factories. Those factories being right on the front give military planners points that they know the enemy is gunning for. That being a known quantity they can safely dump large forces on those worlds and get double duty as garrison force and raiders/recon in force. Now, if we move the factory then we lose that concentrated point on the front and there's a bigger guessing game on where the enemy will strike. Added to that is the problem that the now interior located factory still needs about the same garrison since raiders can still hit the place due to the nature of BattleTech space travel and still have all the same impetus to do so. So by moving the factory away from the front you have simultaneously given yourself an intelligence headache trying to figure out where the enemy is going to strike and weakened your line forces all for the relatively minor benefit of keeping a factory in your hands that the enemy can still raid for parts/units just like they were doing before. It doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to bother with.

Please rest assured that I am bothered just as much as the rest of you that something in BattleTech canon strategy makes at least some sense.
But as a matter of fact I was quite busy getting potty-trained at the time and had no time for interstellar politics.- ykonoclast

Dreyf

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Re: Enemies on the boarder
« Reply #13 on: 04 August 2013, 21:24:56 »
I still don't think the problem is as big an issue as you think.

Having a factory offline for maybe a decade if everything goes well during a time when every 'Mech is needed could lead to your safe backwater world being on the front lines by the time it is online again.

You will probably cause major disruptions in transportation during a time when transport assets are at a premium.  Not just for the new supply routes for components, but now the finished product probably has a lot further to travel to the quartermaster depots where equipment is delivered.

Some of the factories are located where they are for specific reasons.  For example, the factory on Marduk is almost totally self-sufficient due to the mineral reserves in the region it is located.  Finding another location as ideal might not be possible.

In 3025 if you lose a world with a factory you can always attempt to take it back.  However, if you just lost a factory world and your intelligence uncovers your enemy's attempt to move the captured factory to an interior world, what would you do?

Aldous

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Re: Enemies on the boarder
« Reply #14 on: 04 August 2013, 23:10:36 »
LOL

The reason the Great Houses don't move the factories is because they are not sure 100% that they can reassemble them again. Remember Comstar, the most tech savvy of the lot, didn't know how their own HPG's worked in 3025. The same goes for the Houses and their assembly lines. Its the reason no new Mech Factories were made during the Succession Wars. 

Rorke

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Re: Enemies on the boarder
« Reply #15 on: 05 August 2013, 09:31:50 »
LOL

The reason the Great Houses don't move the factories is because they are not sure 100% that they can reassemble them again. Remember Comstar, the most tech savvy of the lot, didn't know how their own HPG's worked in 3025. The same goes for the Houses and their assembly lines. Its the reason no new Mech Factories were made during the Succession Wars.

I hate to say it, but I agree. 

There's also possibly the business of logistics to consider.  Those factories might be located there, because of easy access to resources
required in production.  If you're situating a factory on a resource rich world, you're saving massive amounts of cost in terms of shipping.
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blackwizards

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Re: Enemies on the boarder
« Reply #16 on: 06 August 2013, 12:45:35 »
When you shut a line down and move it, you can't use it for however long it takes you to get it back up and running (which might be years).

You're right, its 3025. You just captured a fancy new mech plant. Not being able to use it immediately is not a desirable situation to find yourself in.

 

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