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Author Topic: Wolf's Dragoons?  (Read 1960 times)

mdauben

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Wolf's Dragoons?
« on: 09 December 2021, 09:22:33 »
I just got my box of the new plastic Wolf's Dragoons Assault Star and it made me wonder.

Did WD always use the "star" organization, or was that something they reverted to some time after the Clan Invasion started?  If the later, when did they switch from lances to stars?  I checked on SARNA.NET and there was nothing I could find about their small unit organization. 

Thanks!
Mike

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Re: Wolf's Dragoons?
« Reply #1 on: 09 December 2021, 09:50:07 »
The Dragoons started using Stars in limited #s in the 3040's.

The first use was IIRC when the Black Widow Company was rebuilt as a Battalion in the 3030's & then, after the Wo39 had a further expansion from "Battalion" org into "Cluster" org.  That was mostly unnoticed at the time.

Zeta was next to follow suit IIRC & then finally the Line Regiments started using "Stars" in each of their Regimental Command Companies.

Once the Battle Armor was revealed they use Stars/Points there too.

The Armor, Fighters, & the Line Mech Battalions were all still using the Base-4 pattern (6-Fighters) in the Mid 3050's.

When they rebuilt again on Arc Royal post Jihad, I "think" they used Stars even more commonly but I can't be sure on that.
Someone more familiar with the Republic Era could maybe offer more insight into that time frame.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

mdauben

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Re: Wolf's Dragoons?
« Reply #2 on: 09 December 2021, 10:11:02 »
Thanks!

So, during the Clan Invasion period they were still using the lance organization?  I was specifically thinking about their Alpha Regiment.
Mike

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Re: Wolf's Dragoons?
« Reply #3 on: 09 December 2021, 10:37:24 »
Clan Invasion they would be using Stars in the 2 independent "Battalions/Clusters"  &  the Regimental Command Companies.

The Widows at that time, were, IIRC, 10 stars, a command star & 3 Trinaries, along w/ some Kommando Infantry & 6 Fighters for support.

Zeta was probably similar but I don't know that they ever used Infantry/Fighter support.

The Regimental Command "Trinaries" were, also, IIRC sort of mixed, it wasn't actually 15 mechs, it was more like 10-12 mechs & them some Recon Vehicles & Infantry filling out the Command Group.

This info is mostly from Mercs Handbook 3055 if you have access to that.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

mdauben

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Re: Wolf's Dragoons?
« Reply #4 on: 09 December 2021, 10:47:42 »
Thanks again!  I think I might have a copy of the Merc's Handbook.  I'll have to dig through my game closet and see if I can find it.
Mike

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RifleMech

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Re: Wolf's Dragoons?
« Reply #5 on: 12 December 2021, 23:31:32 »
Wolf's Dragoons have always been unique. They didn't officially start using Stars, Trinarys, and Clusters until 3037 with the Black Widow Cluster. After the Clan Invasion the Dragoons adopted a more blending of IS and Clan organization. Pre-Misery though, the Dragoons often had more units than normal in their lances and companies.

Their line regiments usually consisted of a command company, and 3 battalions of 3 companies, with a command lance. The companies though consisted of 3-5 lances. Lances were usually 4 units but sometimes had 5 or 6, and at least one had 3.  Having larger than normal companies extended to many of the independent units as well, although some independent commands only had 2 companies and a command lance. 

After the Clan Invasion, the Dragoons line regiments did away with larger companies.  Usually it was 12 units to a company. Elemental Battalions consisted of 3 Stars and a command point. A couple of the independent units go full Clan organization though, The Wolf Spiders and Zeta Battalion. The Elemental Striker Cluster has a command point and 5 stars of Elementals.  Some of them have battalions with 48 vehicles each.

All of this comes from Wolf's Dragoons, and Mercenary's Handbook 3055. I think those are the two best books for looking at how Wolf's Dragoons organized.




glitterboy2098

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Re: Wolf's Dragoons?
« Reply #6 on: 13 December 2021, 01:40:23 »
it is worth noting too that the units that switched over to Clan style Star's in the 3030's and 3040's were not being used for contracts at the time, but mostly had been assigned to training commands on outreach to act as OPFOR's so the rest of the dragoon's could retrain in both using and countering clan tactics. it wasn't until after the Dragoon's revealed their identity to the leader of the successor states in 3050 that they would deploy anything clan related publically

mdauben

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Re: Wolf's Dragoons?
« Reply #7 on: 13 December 2021, 02:27:50 »
Thanks Riflemech and Gliterboy!
Mike

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Re: Wolf's Dragoons?
« Reply #8 on: 13 December 2021, 20:54:25 »
You're welcome  :thumbsup:

Hellraiser

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Re: Wolf's Dragoons?
« Reply #9 on: 14 December 2021, 00:43:06 »
it is worth noting too that the units that switched over to Clan style Star's in the 3030's and 3040's were not being used for contracts at the time, but mostly had been assigned to training commands on outreach to act as OPFOR's so the rest of the dragoon's could retrain in both using and countering clan tactics. it wasn't until after the Dragoon's revealed their identity to the leader of the successor states in 3050 that they would deploy anything clan related publically

That's not quite true.

While they made the switch over while on Outreach, they then left Outreach for missions.

The Widows smashed the Marik Militia on Hall in the Wo39 after shifting from Battalion/Lance-4 to Cluster/Star-5 formations.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

five_corparty

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Re: Wolf's Dragoons?
« Reply #10 on: 28 December 2021, 23:27:49 »
That's not quite true.

While they made the switch over while on Outreach, they then left Outreach for missions.

The Widows smashed the Marik Militia on Hall in the Wo39 after shifting from Battalion/Lance-4 to Cluster/Star-5 formations.

Right, IIRC, the widows were the first to go out on missions to get cash flowing in, and then they were recalled to be OPFOR as the regiments were brought back on-line one by one.

For what it's worth, i pulled the FASA wolf's dragoons book off the shelf to look- it's set during/immediatly following the 4SW, and while it HAS one of those phone-book TO&Es that old school FASA was known for (listing EVRY mechwarrior BY NAME in all 5 regiments, for those that don't know the "phone book" slang) THIS book is DEPRESSING.
Killed on misery
killled on misery
whole lance killed on misery
killed on misery
survived misery (HOORAY!) transferred to baker company, killed on Crossing (oh, FFS!!) ;-P hahaha
and on and on.
not a cheerful read! :/

(and nothing about Stars at that point, back on topic)

Colt Ward

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Re: Wolf's Dragoons?
« Reply #11 on: 29 December 2021, 10:28:18 »
While that might be depressing, I think it is better than 'heavy casualties' description . . . in fact, IMO the Refusal War summaries in MW2's database were great.  I am not sure they were actually duplicated in source material though I know Natasha has a discussion with Star Colonel Marco Hall that references them.  The post-battle summary would discuss KIA, WIA, and material losses with exception component differences noted- like when the Elemental portions of a force got hammered, so you put most of the KIA/WIA losses in that category.

Unfortunately, the current vague summaries allows for a large swing of forces.  We get a report of what the combined Wolves can field after the ilClan trial at that moment, but since we never got KIA/WIA/material break down there is the chance there are whole galaxies who are still considered too wounded to be counted.  The Shrapnel story makes clear material will not be a problem with the salvage parks set up around the world.
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BrianDavion

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Re: Wolf's Dragoons?
« Reply #12 on: 29 December 2021, 11:44:15 »
While that might be depressing, I think it is better than 'heavy casualties' description . . . in fact, IMO the Refusal War summaries in MW2's database were great.  I am not sure they were actually duplicated in source material though I know Natasha has a discussion with Star Colonel Marco Hall that references them.  The post-battle summary would discuss KIA, WIA, and material losses with exception component differences noted- like when the Elemental portions of a force got hammered, so you put most of the KIA/WIA losses in that category.

Unfortunately, the current vague summaries allows for a large swing of forces.  We get a report of what the combined Wolves can field after the ilClan trial at that moment, but since we never got KIA/WIA/material break down there is the chance there are whole galaxies who are still considered too wounded to be counted.  The Shrapnel story makes clear material will not be a problem with the salvage parks set up around the world.

doesn't really suprise me on that score. given the losses the falcons suffered, if we assume even a quarter of the CJF mechs are salvagable that'd be eneugh to ensure no one is disposssed.

Hellraiser

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Re: Wolf's Dragoons?
« Reply #13 on: 29 December 2021, 22:55:57 »
Right, IIRC, the widows were the first to go out on missions to get cash flowing in, and then they were recalled to be OPFOR as the regiments were brought back on-line one by one.

(and nothing about Stars at that point, back on topic)

Yeah the book is pre-Outreach, pure IS tech & organization back then.
It was only once they got Outreach & started rebuilding that they looked at changes, starting with the Widows.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

CVB

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Re: Wolf's Dragoons?
« Reply #14 on: 30 December 2021, 04:48:16 »
Yeah the book is pre-Outreach, pure IS tech & organization back then.
It was only once they got Outreach & started rebuilding that they looked at changes, starting with the Widows.

Although it's noteworthy that even pre-Misery, every batallion of the line regiments save one (Charlie/Delta) contained one company composed of five elements (lances, platoons, fighter pairs).
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Failure16

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Re: Wolf's Dragoons?
« Reply #15 on: 30 December 2021, 08:06:16 »
All (well, most, since there is probably an exception or three I don't recall) of their armor platoons were composed of five elements, even back then.
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth, 
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.
When I needed something good.                                            One day we'll reveal the truth,
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.        That one will die before he gets there.

But I'd think of something better if I could
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CVB

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Re: Wolf's Dragoons?
« Reply #16 on: 30 December 2021, 12:23:18 »
All (well, most, since there is probably an exception or three I don't recall) of their armor platoons were composed of five elements, even back then.

Interstesting. I'd always read it as the platoon leader riding in the same tank as the first of four element NCOs, but after closer reading your interpretation seems to be correct. There are examples were the platoon leader's vehicle type is uniqe (e.g. Armored Support Platoon, Waller's Co., page 50).

Additional note: WD infantry platoons have one Lt and four NCOs, even for Jump infantry.
"Wars result when one side either misjudges its chances or wishes to commit suicide; and not even Masada began as a suicide attempt. In general, both warring parties expect to win. In the event, they are wrong more than half the time."
- David Drake

I'm willing to suspend my disbelief, but I'm not willing to hang it by the neck until it's dead, dead, dead!

Dayton3

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Re: Wolf's Dragoons?
« Reply #17 on: 30 December 2021, 23:51:03 »
I got the idea that besides using them for opposition force (Clan type) training,  units like the  Black Widows  and Zeta Battalion had the image of being "unique" already so organizing them like Clan units would raise fewer questions.

Failure16

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Re: Wolf's Dragoons?
« Reply #18 on: 04 January 2022, 21:33:53 »
Interstesting. I'd always read it as the platoon leader riding in the same tank as the first of four element NCOs, but after closer reading your interpretation seems to be correct. There are examples were the platoon leader's vehicle type is uniqe (e.g. Armored Support Platoon, Waller's Co., page 50).

Additional note: WD infantry platoons have one Lt and four NCOs, even for Jump infantry.

It seems that most of the Dragoons' armor platoons consist of two sections with different AFVs with the PLs riding a vehicle in line with the first section (exception as noted above--see also p. 71--and Komachi's Company, Able Battalion, Gamma Regiment, p. 63, for example, and p. 65--Snyder's Company). And yes, the jump-inf (and most motorized) platoons do have 1 PL and four NCOs--a sergeant and three corporals, usually. I have personally always presumed that it meant a PL, PSG, and three SLs. But it could just have easily been five squads' worth.

EDIT: There might be a Rosetta Stone of sorts...p.77, Jump Infantry Support Platoon, Jager's Company, Able Battalion, Epsilon Regiment. Has the requisite LT, SGT, three CPLs, and each element is given a weapons' assignment (three flamers, two MGs). Of course, that could also mean the LT and SGT are simply part of one of the squads, but that is no fun. And besides, BTU infantry organization has always been naff, by and large.
« Last Edit: 04 January 2022, 22:15:04 by Failure16 »
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth, 
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.
When I needed something good.                                            One day we'll reveal the truth,
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.        That one will die before he gets there.

But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra
--A. Duritz