Back to painting, Lyran Guards or maybe Arcturan Guards?

[Empyrus]

Doing some color testing. Four different blues, though the shoulder and torso look pretty similar. The biggest question is: the lighter or the darker found in the arm? Both seem reasonable options.

Also, i finally understand what's the deal with white. It is horrible. Vallejo's bone white is thick, goopy paint that doesn't even out even after thinning it a bit. This Banshee has two layers of it, didn't bother with a third since this is a pure test unit.
That said, i did paint over brown/tan, i figure next test will be done over white primer.

I do have white contrast paint, i'll be trying that on this test unit as well.

My Alliance Guards are finally varnished, they're just drying. Will be grabbing photos later.

[Empyrus]

Contrast white question: Can i paint it just over white primer or should i do a white coat first?

Also, which blue would people recommend for Lyran Guards? Based on my testing, i'm inclined to toward Vallejo Magic or Electric Blue.

[worktroll]

Contrast paints are really dependant on the surface underneath. If it's too 'grippy', then the contrast won't stretch over the flat parts & collect in the panel lines.

There's a reason I keep naming Grey Seer - a Citadel base - all the time. It's just about the best prime I've found, and works with pretty much anything, let alone contrasts. It's a light grey that goes on thin & smooth. Available in pot or spray can (hey, I like hand priming, it's a ritual thing - that, and painting reverses the potential carpal tunnel effects of typing, for me.)

That white has certainly gone on heavy! You'll get a poor result with the Apothecary White contrast paint, because the prime has filled in all the fine detail and left things glooped. Under any circumstance, I'd give that mini a trip back to the stripping pot before going further.

White's a bugger to work with in several ways. The biggest, I'd suggest, is providing contrast. It's the appearance of all the panel lines, and detailing, that add the perception of size to minis IMHO. A flat white mini (such as above) lacks all that contrasting detail, and looks like a plastic toy. Classic ways of getting the sense of depth include black base and repeated white drybrushes, even drawing the panel lines on with a fine tip black pen. Either way, much work, lots of bother & redoing bits that didn't work out right. Matt white paints also don't work with inks/washes the way other colours do - the surface is chalky (to get the matt look), and absorbs a lot of the wash. You can use that - matt white base and two coats of Nuln Oil wash give a great charcoal look IMHO, but it means you can't do the classic base/wash/drybrush approach. Some people have used gloss white/wash/drybrush matt white, but I can't speak to that myself. But be careful your gloss white isn't gloopy.

The lower arm blue is for me closest to Steiner blue. Technically French Imperial Blue, or whatever Citadel call Ultramarine blue. In terms of the contrast paints, MarauderD some great results with Tallasar blue for his Lyran Guards.

[Empyrus]

Contrast paints are really dependant on the surface underneath. If it's too 'grippy', then the contrast won't stretch over the flat parts & collect in the panel lines.

There's a reason I keep naming Grey Seer - a Citadel base - all the time. It's just about the best prime I've found, and works with pretty much anything, let alone contrasts. It's a light grey that goes on thin & smooth. Available in pot or spray can (hey, I like hand priming, it's a ritual thing - that, and painting reverses the potential carpal tunnel effects of typing, for me.)

Unfortunately i don't have that. I have big spray bottles of white and black, and brush on gray (from Army Painter). Fortunately, i'm not really planning on using white beyond these Lyran Guards. That said, i'll check if LGS has any Gray Seer Brush On the next time i'm there. Though i guess i should try that Army Painter brush on first, in case it is good enough.

That white has certainly gone on heavy! You'll get a poor result with the Apothecary White contrast paint, because the prime has filled in all the fine detail and left things glooped. Under any circumstance, I'd give that mini a trip back to the stripping pot before going further.

You don't say! It looks terrible IRL. And yes, contrast looks bad on it. I did modify it afterwards by drybrushing white on it, which improved looks a bit. Also tried Arid Earth (very pale tan) and then contrast over it, but that doesn't look right, but that might be because the 'Mech's already so messed up.

Since i don't have means of stripping minis ATM, i'll probably just give that Banshee just a black coat, or maybe just re-prime the damn thing. Doesn't really matter, it is just a test piece.

White's a bugger to work with in several ways. The biggest, I'd suggest, is providing contrast. It's the appearance of all the panel lines, and detailing, that add the perception of size to minis IMHO. A flat white mini (such as above) lacks all that contrasting detail, and looks like a plastic toy. Classic ways of getting the sense of depth include black base and repeated white drybrushes, even drawing the panel lines on with a fine tip black pen. Either way, much work, lots of bother & redoing bits that didn't work out right. Matt white paints also don't work with inks/washes the way other colours do - the surface is chalky (to get the matt look), and absorbs a lot of the wash. You can use that - matt white base and two coats of Nuln Oil wash give a great charcoal look IMHO, but it means you can't do the classic base/wash/drybrush approach. Some people have used gloss white/wash/drybrush matt white, but I can't speak to that myself. But be careful your gloss white isn't gloopy.

I'll try to remember this stuff... err, probably best i bookmark your post

The lower arm blue is for me closest to Steiner blue. Technically French Imperial Blue, or whatever Citadel call Ultramarine blue. In terms of the contrast paints, MarauderD some great results with Tallasar blue for his Lyran Guards.

I was leaning toward that blue. Painting two test pieces, one with Electric Blue, one with Magic Blue.

Started with white primer, and just added one third of contrast white to each. It looks OK over primer. We'll see how it goes. I'll add blues next, and then probably drybrush white over contrast, not sure.

[Empyrus]

Okay, it is clear Electric Blue is too light for the Lyran Guards. Maybe it can be drybrushed over darker blue if lighter shade is needed but otherwise not right.

Very nervous about the white-blue border. Should've opted for one-color paint scheme..

That said, next Lyran company is Donegal Guards. Shouldn't be too hard.

But my Capellans, oh dear. As it is, i've planned St. Ives Lancers, House Hiritsu and Red Lancers, none of whom have easy scheme.

[Empyrus]

I hate that border. Hate hate hate. Repairing mistakes is time consuming, need to add white and then new contrast. I need to rethink this.

Maybe i'll do Arcturan Guards instead, should be easy enough, right? Just white contrast, drybrushing, details, what else?

[worktroll]

It is annoying, but stick with it - try a few different things until you get confident with it. Some of my best schemes - and I'll highlight Magestrix Rangers and Tikonov Republican Guards, are contrasting colours.

Some possible tips:

1) Go over with the white; l find it easier to tidy up with the darker paint than the lighter.
2) Use a small brush. I'm currently using 5/0 for drawing the border with the lighter colour, then tidying up with the darker using a 20/0 brush.
3) When tidying up, don't put too much paint on the brush. In fact, with the darker colour, you can almost drybrush it on - although more paint on the brush than a real drybrush.

That's how I approached my Steiner Strikers. Did the red base & grey triangle, then washed with nuln oil. Then did a couple of layers of white over the grey, not being too careful. Then redid the edges in red with a ratty old small brush, using that semi-drybrush approach. With less paint on the brush, less there to go astray. And yes, there were iterative cycles, leading to

4) Recognise when it's good enough for you. Most of the flaws you're seeing won't be visible on the table, and sometimes just positioning the mini for photos can conceal that one bit you just can't seem to get where you want it to be!

And remember - the relief on the KS minis is incredible for contrast paints, washes, etc. They are joys, aren't they?

Re stripping - all you need is a wide-mouth salsa jar (sans salsa) and lid, and a can of oven cleaner. Easy-Off is the brand I use here Down Under; just don't pick the lemon-scented, or low-irritant, version. You want the real deal.

Spray a bed of foam into the jar, drop in the mini(s), spray more foam over - make a layer cake if you're stripping a bunch! Put the lid on, find somewhere you can hold the can upside down & spray into the air until it's just blowing propellant (otherwise the nozzle can jam up with dried gunk, like any aerosol). Put the jar where it won't fume your house for a couple of hours - couple of days is no problem. I then rinse all the gunk out with water, then using an old toothbrush scrub off remaining paint gunk out of the nooks and crannies. Yes, the laundry trough is a great place to do this 

[Empyrus]

It is annoying, but stick with it - try a few different things until you get confident with it. Some of my best schemes - and I'll highlight Magestrix Rangers and Tikonov Republican Guards, are contrasting colours.

I liked your Republican Guards a lot  . Really disappointed they're not around for long. Been thinking i'll make a merc unit for the Dark Age/IlClan era that uses their scheme.

It is not the contrast that's the problem but rather that i find white-blue really difficult. Fixing issues in my Alliance Guards, which have overall way more borders, was relatively easy due to way the tans and browns work.
I'll work more on these tomorrow, though i did turn the second piece into an Arcturan Guard test. Will need to prepare another Lyran Guard test for the darker blue.

And remember - the relief on the KS minis is incredible for contrast paints, washes, etc. They are joys, aren't they?

Still working on older plastic and metallic minis, i'll move to Kickstarter Clan minis once i've done all my previous companies. Well, might skip and leave my Star League units for later.

Re stripping - all you need is a wide-mouth salsa jar (sans salsa) and lid, and a can of oven cleaner. Easy-Off is the brand I use here Down Under; just don't pick the lemon-scented, or low-irritant, version. You want the real deal.

Need to figure what's the stuff here in Finland... Well, i do need an oven cleaner anyhow, for actually cleaning the oven.

[worktroll]

I liked your Republican Guards a lot  . Really disappointed they're not around for long. Been thinking i'll make a merc unit for the Dark Age/IlClan era that uses their scheme.

Both Holt's Hilltoppers and the Dropship Irregulars use that quartered scheme, and both have one company/battalion in red (IIRC the Irregulars have companies with blue quarters and with green quarters, and the Hilltoppers have one with yellow. But the quartering is the opposite of the Republican Guards. But whatever works on your painting table  )

Still working on older plastic and metallic minis, i'll move to Kickstarter Clan minis once i've done all my previous companies. Well, might skip and leave my Star League units for later.

Militarium green contrast over Grey Seer. Scotty posted a pic recently in the FWL thread under Inner Sphere. Nails Star League olive drab.

[Empyrus]

Actually, i just remembered a reason i might end up making these into Arcturan Guard and do Lyran Guards later.

Kinda want to do Early Succession Wars-era Marik Militia, and Lyran Guards would be a wonderful opponent for them. Plus this gives me a better plan for BB/AGOAC/KS Spheroid plastic miniatures than what i have right now.
Admittedly i could do Arcturan Guard there though, but i also figure that by the time i get there, i'll be better and more confident painter.

The current plan is a merc unit but i'm not entirely happy with that concept. Instead, i could allocate a bunch of Republic of the Sphere 'Mechs i want for the mercs. Especially since there's no more Republic...

Militarium green contrast over Grey Seer. Scotty posted a pic recently in the FWL thread under Inner Sphere. Nails Star League olive drab.

Need to check them out. And prepare to get more paints...
Another reason to do Arcturan Guard now, as my current plan for my Star League units was ComStar white.

*cough* this kind of stuff is why my original unit allocation ideas went to trash. I keep getting "better" ideas

EDIT I need to check out those units you mentioned...

[worktroll]

Pure white is actually easier.

- Base Grey Seer
- Apothecary White contrast
- Drybrush with a brilliant white, not too heavy
- Details

Done! It's the borders that add difficulty.

[Empyrus]

Seems i may need to visit local Games Workshop store (to my surprise, there's one in Helsinki) because other stores don't have Grey Seer primer at the moment. I figure i probably don't need it but might not hurt to be prepared.
That said, i think i need to test that gray brush-on primer i have and contrast paints on it. Maybe it is good enough.


After sleeping on current project, i reckon i'll do Lyran Guards after all. They're Lyran at a glance, whereas Arcturan Guards could be taken for WoBlies or ComStar. (I don't have decals.)

So many ideas. I do want to do the Arcturan Guards at some point, and and also Marik Militia. Then again, i also really want to do Eridani Light Horse's paint scheme. The original, or something close to the original, not just Star League Drab Green. 
For reference:
https://cfw.sarna.net/wiki/images/d/d4/Camomercseridanilighthorse.png?timestamp=20100330091447
https://unitcolorcompendium.com/2019/03/16/eridani-light-horse/

Too many ideas, not enough miniatures, time nor money for everything. The problem with leaving stuff for later is that i keep getting new ideas as well, not to mention i keep worrying about miniature availability. Ah, well, shouldn't worry, it will be as it will be.

[Empyrus]

This is weird. Using Magic Blue thinned with few drops of water (and then mixed just to be sure). I started at the white-blue border with small detail brush. That part looks darker than rest of the blue areas! Same paint, haven't added more or anything. Essentially there's slight unintentional gradient. Now i'm wondering if i need a better blue paint, or if i'm doing something wrong.
I mean, the odds are on the latter but...

Also figured that using an old medicine bottle or such and attaching the mini on top of that with blue tack makes handing it far far easier. Noticed that some kind of holders are often used in various videos. Uncertain if those are makeshift or purpose-built.

[Death_from_above]

The holders could be the Citadel painting handle :

https://paintinginspired.blogspot.com/2018/11/citadel-painting-handle-review.html



As mentioned by worktroll earlier, MarauderD's Lyran Guard could also provide some inspiration :

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/miniatures/lyran-guards-2-more-minis-from-the-ks/?PHPSESSID=0egmike2p66ulttheqmjo0epfa

[Empyrus]

Oh, pretty sure i've seen that handle in some video certainly.
But also seen someone using some kind of putty to keep the mini in place.

As for MarauderD's stuff, nice. Need to comment on it.
And.. Talassar Blue, gotta add it to my shopping list probably.

[Empyrus]

Yeah, so, at this point with my test.
There's some stuff to be corrected in the rear, then i guess i'll throw in some initial detail (black), see how it goes.

What i'm wondering is if i should add blue ink wash to the blue side? Seriously wish i had contrast blue though, the contrast white looks pretty good and not like it really needs a wash.

Alternatively i could go over the whole 'Mech with Nuln Oil but that might darken stuff too much. Maybe i'll test that on the other test unit...

[Empyrus]

Going for paint shopping tomorrow.

So i'm figuring i'll be getting Grey Seer primer and perhaps the paint for "resetting" contrast paint, understood that's the best way to deal with problems.
Militarum Green for Star League.
Talassar Blue for Lyran Guard.

What would be recommended for Donegal Guards? Though i suppose contrast paints aren't necesary for those, think i do have some blue-grays already.

[Death_from_above]

This is Camospecs B1B Flyer using Contrast Akhelian Green (over a grey base) for his Donegal Guards :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5LEgqvcpKY

[worktroll]

That's looking pretty good! You could do a blue ink wash; just test on a patch on the back to see if it darkens the mini too much.

There's a point in mini painting, before which things don't look good. There's a certain level of details where suddenly the scheme comes into focus in your eyes. Sometimes it's at the halfway mark, more often it's not until your 80-90% done. If you added the metallic details, barrels & joints, I suspect the mini would pop.

And Arcturan Guards - one unit has tiger stripes. Simple way to consider - orange stripe, then go over one edge with a small black pen. I swear by the Uniball 0.5.

[Empyrus]

This is Camospecs B1B Flyer using Contrast Akhelian Green (over a grey base) for his Donegal Guards :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5LEgqvcpKY

Duh, i've watched that video! But forgot it completely. Thanks, very useful.

That's looking pretty good! You could do a blue ink wash; just test on a patch on the back to see if it darkens the mini too much.

Did try that ink on the previous mini, it didn't work well. Maybe i should've thinned it a lot, or been more careful with it, either way it ended up messy, in the wrong places kinda.
Nuln Oil on white isn't a good idea either. Looks dirty. That said, i'll try drybrushing white and blue on the bad test tomorrow, see if it'll improve.

There's a point in mini painting, before which things don't look good. There's a certain level of details where suddenly the scheme comes into focus in your eyes. Sometimes it's at the halfway mark, more often it's not until your 80-90% done. If you added the metallic details, barrels & joints, I suspect the mini would pop.

Certainly.
I guess i'll do a test patch of Nuln Oil on blue, and another ink test. If neither works, i'll just do some quick details and drybrush stuff, see how it will work.

And Arcturan Guards - one unit has tiger stripes. Simple way to consider - orange stripe, then go over one edge with a small black pen. I swear by the Uniball 0.5.

Uh, not my thing. Never been one for tiger stripe camo, let alone actual tiger stripes. That said, i probably should consider getting a black pen, might be useful.

[Empyrus]

Turns out Grey Seer Primer (spray) is largely unvailable because of brexit. Something about aerosols being dangerous.
So, i guess i need to make due with what i've got.
Did get Talassar Blue, Militarum Green and Akhelian Green contrast paints though, and Satin Spray Varnish as well.

These should cover my Lyrans and Star League units, and hopefully my existing paints will all be suitable for my CapCon plans. Figure my year's miniature budget is essentially maxed out, especially since i still need to get the Clan Fire Star once it is out. Good bye extra V-wing for X-wing TMG for this year!

[MarauderD]

Yeah, so, at this point with my test.
There's some stuff to be corrected in the rear, then i guess i'll throw in some initial detail (black), see how it goes.

What i'm wondering is if i should add blue ink wash to the blue side? Seriously wish i had contrast blue though, the contrast white looks pretty good and not like it really needs a wash.

Alternatively i could go over the whole 'Mech with Nuln Oil but that might darken stuff too much. Maybe i'll test that on the other test unit...

Looks good!  I'll chime in on the Nuln Oil--it dirties up your white side too much, darkening it.  I'd use it selectively if at all.  You're probably better off finding some super bright white to accent it 'upwards' instead of using nuln oil to darken it. 

[Empyrus]

Looks good!  I'll chime in on the Nuln Oil--it dirties up your white side too much, darkening it.  I'd use it selectively if at all.  You're probably better off finding some super bright white to accent it 'upwards' instead of using nuln oil to darken it.

Yeah, i figured that with another test. The Dragon looks like it fell on mud and rain washed some off.
The only bright white i got is Vallejo Dead White, which is white white. Just annoyingly goopy. But drybrushing it... well, i'm gonna try that soon.

Other stuff to do: Use grey brush on primer, new blue ink wash and Nuln Oil test on blue, drybrushing some blue on blue.
Well, the last one is maybe, do Lyran Guards blue need drybrushing?

EDIT Currently distracted by a pizza.

[Empyrus]

Yep, done by hand, turns out to be way easier that I thought.  Blue first, take your time at the center torso/right torso meeting point.  If you have any spills, use a flat white to cover it up, then do your white contrast paint on top of your primer and flat white touch up spots.  On this batch, both the commando and archer had less than 5 minutes of touch up editing.

Oh, noticed this in your Lyran Guards thread.
I will need to keep this in mind. My initial tests were with contrast first, which is difficult to fix without restarting the process.

[MarauderD]

Well, the last one is maybe, do Lyran Guards blue need drybrushing?

EDIT Currently distracted by a pizza.

Pizza can be worth distraction.  On the Talassar Blue--it does need drybrushing.  A tiny bit of a silver-blue or sky blue on the edges of the panels can really help.  The Talassar Blue contrast is a nice color but can come off a bit flat. 

Looking forward to your finished product! (And now also hungry...)

[Empyrus]

Right, forgot to say i meant what i used so far, yet to use Talassar Blue.
Well, i suppose drybrushing can't make things any worse...

[Empyrus]

Well, Nuln Oil on Magic Blue does work well as a wash. No point even trying that blue ink which was annoying.

Also brush-on grey primer on grey plastic mini is problematic. I have hard time telling where i painted already!

Waiting for stuff to dry is annoying. I need to work on more minis at time, probably start prototyping those Donegal Guards already.

EDIT Also note to self: Really, don't wear white while painting.

[Empyrus]

Well, my Dragon test subject is beyond saving without heavy work.
Between Nuln Oil dirtied white, gradiented blue washed poorly with blue ink, despite some added detail and drybrushing, it doesn't look good. No, not even gonna grab a pic!

But my Awesome test goes ahead. If it works, i'll do a third test using contrast blue and white. Primed a Grasshopper for that.

Running out of test miniatures quickly at this rate! Fortunately i found out about what's available here that works for paint stripping.
One is something i may actually have judging by name, tossed my armless Whitworth into a container with the stuff, we'll see in few days how it goes. If it doesn't work, fortunately there's alternative: stuff that is commonly available, basically local equivalent to Pine Sol. Apparently pine oil is the important ingredient? Whatever getting some tomorrow.

[Empyrus]

Test Awesome. Took pics with flash (and at low rez), wasn't a good idea. Have poor lighting ATM, and it is dark outside.
EDIT Oh, right, this Awesome has shortened arm gun barrel. It was originally bent rather badly, couldn't get hot water trick to work, so i shortened it as a test, figured it could be a -10KM model (with a Snub-nose PPC), but ultimately threw it to my test pool of 'Mechs.

Drybrushed Dead White on the white areas, blue area has Nuln Oil wash and then lighter Electric Blue drybrush. Added some black to detail areas (joints, gun barrels, antenna cockpit), added gun metal to all but cockpit.

It is a bit messy, not too carefully done, but i figure it would be OK playing piece. Will take more care with the company proper certainly. Details are tricky though, since every 'Mech is different, but i will probably keep it simple and do as did here.
That said, need to consider cockpits, especially the Zeus, Cyclops, Caesar and BattleMaster, all of which have large cockpits. Small cockpits like this Awesome's would work with black only, i think.

Unfortunately none of my available test minis possess large enough cockpit really practice jeweling. Well, at least none which are unpainted... and in case of a Cyclops, i added gloss varnish on the cockpit, as i understand getting rid of that might not be easy.
That said, i understand the principle, so i might give it a try on some 'Mech, i can always just reset stuff to black no?

[MarauderD]

Good job on the blue/white border!