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Author Topic: (Answered) Aero units and LB-X contradiction  (Read 1705 times)

monbvol

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(Answered) Aero units and LB-X contradiction
« on: 09 September 2013, 10:57:11 »
There is something that came up in a recent discussion I have been a part of that I think needs some clarification.

Going to have to go on a bit of a tour to get to it though.

Page 236 clearly says weapons using the cluster table always use average.  LB-X guns list their aero damage in accordance to this so no problem so far.

The problem comes from page 237 where it says Aero units may not use special munitions.

The table notes on page 303 it says Aero units always gets -1 for LB-X weapons.

Since the LB-X itself does not grant a -1 to hit modifier and Cluster Munitions in all references are treated as special munitions this seems to create a contradiction.

Am I missing something or do Aero units make an explicit exception to the rules on page 237 about no specialty ammunition and treat Cluster Munitions as standard munitions without it actually saying so in Total Warfare or Tech Manual anywhere?
« Last Edit: 01 June 2015, 12:57:04 by Xotl »

monbvol

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Re: (Research) Contradiction of LB-X for Aero units
« Reply #1 on: 12 September 2013, 06:10:46 »
A potential follow up ramification/question for LAMs:

Based on the rule on page 237 and a quick check of RS:3085 Print PDF edition for the LAM quick start rules to see if there were any exceptions(which I found none) I would assume then that LAMs if loading specialty ammunition for mech mode weaponry would then be unable to use said specialty ammunition if converting to ASF mode during the scenario.

Or would LAMs not be able to use specialty ammunition as well no matter their mode?

Another contradiction I just realized is that Artemis capable ammunition is still technically a specialty ammunition type but is obviously given an exception for aerospace units.

As such I would propose the following errata to the rule on page 237(sufficiently cleaned up of course):

While aerospace units can use specialty ammunitions the bonuses of many simply fail to function in aerospace combat.

Paul

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Re: (Research) Contradiction of LB-X for Aero units
« Reply #2 on: 23 September 2013, 14:20:04 »
TW p303 Weapon lists show the damage and to-hit modifier for weapons.
LBXs are listed for their damage and also a note that says they always receive the -1 to-hit modifier.

The note about not using special munitions means they can't change from the default ammo assumed for aerospace.  The base aerospace stats for LBXs already include that they are always firing cluster, there's no need to use cluster special munitions when they are already using them.
The solution is just ignore Paul.

monbvol

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Re: (Answered) Contradiction of LB-X for Aero units
« Reply #3 on: 23 September 2013, 14:32:29 »
That's the contradiction though.

Every other reference to Cluster Ammunition says that is a specialty ammunition, not the standard.

The rule on 237 says no specialty ammunition.

The table on 303 actually does not list the reduced damage for Cluster for Aero units and by extension it does not list Aero damage for Missile Launchers.  It just has a notation that they always get the -1.(most up to date PDF)

You actually have to go to Tech Manual to get a table that actually shows Aero damage.(most up to date PDF)

As such there is actually nothing in Total Warfare saying that Aerospace units make an exception to the rule on page 236 for LB-X and Artemis enhanced missile launchers.

So I don't dispute that Aero units are using Cluster Munitions for LB-X and Artemis Specialty Ammunition for appropriately enhanced launchers.  What I bring to your attention is that there is nothing that outright says they do despite the rule on page 236 saying no specialty ammunitions.

Xotl

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Re: (Answered) Contradiction of LB-X for Aero units
« Reply #4 on: 23 September 2013, 15:44:01 »
Pp. 303 and 304, change "Attack Value" to "Aero Attack Value"

* Weapons And Equipment (p. 238)
Under “Special Munitions”

“Aerospace units may not use special munitions.”
Change to:
“Aerospace units may not use special munitions, with the exception of LB-X autocannons, in which they always use Cluster ammunition.”

We think this will resolve the murkiness.  Thanks for your persistence.
3028-3057 Random Assignment Tables -
Also contains faction deployment & rarity info.

http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=1219.0

monbvol

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Re: (Answered) Contradiction of LB-X for Aero units
« Reply #5 on: 23 September 2013, 16:05:18 »
No problem.

Add in an exception for Artemis as well, the table on 303-304 itself will need a bit more work than that since it is for both aero and non-aero, and anything that is left can be taken care of once full LAM rules are introduced.

Oh and almost forgot to express my gratitude.

Thanks for the answer guys.  I'm almost certain I'll find another ammunition type that needs an exception months from now but I guess we can deal with it then.
« Last Edit: 23 September 2013, 16:27:56 by monbvol »

 

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