Author Topic: Forum members expectations of moderation (from the Goodbye thread) (Read 15453 times)

Malich · « **on:** 20 October 2012, 16:51:48 »

As a former mod on this site i'd just like to chime in

No decision here is taken by a single person unless it is 100% cut and dried. the mdoerators here have 4-5 stealth forums down the bottom of here in which we discuss questionable cases and hold records of every warning, ban, friendly communication, etc ever issued to a user (at least back as far as the last crash). No ban can be issued without discussion and bans over a certain length have to be enacted by an admin so the mods cannot just ban someone they don;t like just on spec.... Tempting as that can be at time

When someone posts something that we feel is questionable we can review every action we have taken with that poster. In a few cases i can remember we have chosen to take no action other than issuing a friendly communication to a user telling them they skirted close to a rule. If we see a regular pattern of friendly notes to a single user (and there are users here who know how to word a post so they skirt on a knife edge of breaking the rules) we can take more serious action even where a full rules breach has not been made. (I'll point out this is very, very, very rarely done)

The moderation team here cannot just "go after" people despite what it might sometimes feel like to some users.

Malich · « **Reply #1 on:** 20 October 2012, 16:55:08 »

Oh, and as a side note. We have warned / banned

Mods
Admins
Writers
Catalyst Staff

There are NO exceptions. you break the rules, you get caught, you get warned.

If you don;t want to get warned it's simple. Follow the rules. If you think someone is breaking the rules then don;t argue with them, don;t break the rules yourself to make them stop. Hit the Notify a mod button and let us do our job!

Lorcan Nagle · « **Reply #2 on:** 20 October 2012, 20:02:12 »

Like many people here, I've gotten warnings in the past. I don't think the posts I got warnings for were too bad, but they clearly broke rules here so I accepted them. And the important thing to remember is that your personal judgement on what you post isn't what's important, but what the mods think.

I've been a mod on a different forum for over 10 years and I agree with the person upthread who said it's a thankless job (and it is a job - and usually one that doesn't pay). It's often very hard to moderate a topic, to police yourself and make sure you're acting impartially. It's always important to remember that there's multiple sides to every story and just because you disagree doesn't mean that you're right.

Snake Eyes · « **Reply #3 on:** 20 October 2012, 21:05:05 »

Interesting points Malich

I know i've been talked to a few times in the past through PMs.......

But, yeah i wouldn't want to try to be a forum mod.

Wombat · « **Reply #4 on:** 21 October 2012, 11:02:00 »

...and Big Ken's boots. I want them too.

Malich · « **Reply #5 on:** 21 October 2012, 11:11:42 »

You can have those. Malich has a new pair, the Big_Ken ones are 12 years old and smell faintly of the Mod Forums. a kind of antiseptic, locker room smell mixed with a hint of all the **** we wade through

StoneRhino · « **Reply #6 on:** 21 October 2012, 11:59:27 »

Quote from: Peacemaker on 16 October 2012, 20:22:27

It's only natural that people would want to discuss the state of moderation on these forums, especially considering that a number of high profile posters have stopped posting in recent times, ColBosch only being the latest. I understand that these are the official forums and that Catalyst wants to put a good foot forward online, but frankly I think ever since the mods cracked down and changed the rules about six months ago, the quality of the discussions around here has decreased. Threads are duller, less people seem to be posting (although that's far from a scientific observation) and many of the more colorful forum personalities are gone. Obviously, there's a strong need for moderation, but I liked the looser, more fiery forum I first discovered several years ago than the one I'm using now. Maybe I'm in the minority and I don't know the facts, but I think our hobby would benefit if the moderation around here was a little less strict. I know there are a number of people who share my sentiments.

Just my two cents.

I am glad to see that this thread was unlocked. When I first saw the thread, which was soon after it started I didn't really care. I understood why he was leaving, trust me I know the feeling. But, I really did not think much of it until I saw that it got locked. That's when it started to matter and kind of annoyed me since he wasn't trying to throw firebombs on his way out, just saying he was leaving and why.

I don't know if you are referring to LotB, but for me that is the BT forum of choice. I come here not expecting much, not expecting to remember who I have commented towards and if my posts were even read. It leads me to cut a post in half feeling that it is pointless. Other times, I don't post because I know I might say something some people might take wrong. I know that some people seem to be able to say certain things at people and never get smacked with a warning or ban because they are slightly different then the rest of the group here. I know that they can unload tons of snark and never get any blowback for it, where I and others show signs of frustration at someone and we know damn well that we are going to see a PM from a mod.

Does the moderation help? Sure, if it is evenly applied, which again I don't really believe it is. It also seems to be applied in a manner in which someone can fire off 2 or 3 rounds at me to which I post a not as pointed as I could response. As soon as I drop my post I can't even go and grab a drink and come back without a mod bustin my balls with a warning. To me it seems unfair that some are hammered as soon as the post is dropped and others can have half a day at least and not have a mod blow up their posts that offend someone into action because apparent mod apathy, essentially saying that some of us are on our own.

Other times, I just don't want to post because of the uneven moderation. I would rather frequent a forum that is unmoderated where if someone says something stupid to me that I have the green light to make em cry. I would rather go to a stricter site because I know those that work to try and offend me are going to be set ablaze by a mod long before I ever see the post, instead of 2 days going by without it being looked at. The way I see it is that either you are a target because you say something stupid, regardless of gender,age, if you are buddy buddy with a mod, or the mods hammer everyone. Giving mixed signals sucks and does nothing for the community.

I agree, older versions of this forum were a lot to frequent because things were less strict for some of us, and the moderation was faster, but also far more fair. I prefer the forum where I know if someone says something stupid I can torch them for it. I hate the feeling of walking on eggshells on this forum. It is the official forum, but it needs to decide if it is going to be moderated or not, and if it is moderated it needs to be even and just as quick for everyone to be hammered, not just certain individuals. Basically, if I can say that someone posted something negative towards me 2 days ago and the post was still there to see and respond, then I might be partial responsible for what I said, but had the post not been there, meaning had the mods did their job fairly then I would have had nothing to respond to.

possibly going in circles due to the absolute frustration with the moderation that seems to be unfairly applied and continues to get worse. Only reason to post about it is because maybe someone will review the policy and responses of the mods so as to adjust to unfair timing of mod responses that give a mixed signal.

Malich · « **Reply #7 on:** 21 October 2012, 12:41:14 »

If you have a problem with a post and it's not being dealt with AND you have already hit the report button, it means either the mods are discussing it or a decision has been taken that it did not breach the rules.

So at that point you have a couple of options.

1) If you haven't hit the notify button, hit it. There are thousands of posts on these forums every day and while the mods are supposed to read each one in detail I'll be the first to admit that on a day when i was busy with work, some posts didn't get the thorough reads they should have. Especially the Wall of Text / multi quote reply posts. We can miss things, we are human, we are all doing this part time (breakfast, lunch breaks and before bed if they are anything like i was). Posts can get missed between one check and the next.

2) If you hit the notify button once and nothing happened, hit it again and put a POLITE note explaining why you think this is a personal insult / rules breach. Half the reports i used to see gave us nothing to work with, just a post to review. Sometimes, with the best will in the world, i couldn't see a breach and had to ask other mods what i was missing. Reporting a post with a detailed reason will always improve response time because it gives us a reason why you think there is a problem.

3) Message a mod and, as above, ask politely if something is being done. Politeness is the key just in case anyone reading this missed it. We're human, we're busy, we have stresses in our personal lives like you would not believe and having some one yelling in our ears that we're not taking their insult seriously is not going to endear us to your cause.

4) Ignore it and move on. I dislike this option as it lets people get away with things and leads to the accusations of inconsistent moderation. Help us help you by telling us what the problem is before accusing us of doing nothing.

A side note on timings.

Last time i checked there were less than 10 mods on this forum. If someone hits the report a mod button it might be an hour or two before someone sees it (especially if you click late at night). If something is cut and dried and a mod can act we will. If it is something that the mod thinks needs a discussion then he makes a thread in the mod forums. It might be 24 hours before everyone can wade in with a view and a consensus reached and that time can increase at weekends / holidays etc.

While it is possible for a thread to be locked / deleted / edited while a decision is made this has lead to comments about mods being overly aggressive and not permitting free speech.

It seams impossible to win sometimes. Do nothing and get accused of allowing insults to remain while we discuss them... or remove them and be accused of stifling free speech.

As users you can pick one.

Lorcan Nagle · « **Reply #8 on:** 21 October 2012, 13:04:30 »

Malich, I may have to steal that for the forum I mod.

Malich · « **Reply #9 on:** 21 October 2012, 13:22:48 »

By all means... but let me tidy it up a bit first. lots of little errors in there.

Ok, that's a bit better. probably still a dozen errors in there... but it's better than it was

vidar · « **Reply #10 on:** 21 October 2012, 16:23:37 »

I have been sitting here lurking, and the thing that notice about the moderation on this site is that many poster who are used to a different set of polite behaviors have issues with the moderation. I would like to know if it is perhaps a bit of generational difference?
I have rarely been insulted/attacked of these forums. My ideas have been and many time were stupid to start with. This differs form other forums. I would like to think that it is due to a more mature population, but I can not prove this.
So from my uniformed point of view, I think that there maybe a generation gap. But always remember 1 in 10 humans is unequal to any given task, at any given time.

Youngblood · « **Reply #11 on:** 21 October 2012, 18:26:23 »

Quote from: vidar on 21 October 2012, 16:23:37

I have been sitting here lurking, and the thing that notice about the moderation on this site is that many poster who are used to a different set of polite behaviors have issues with the moderation. I would like to know if it is perhaps a bit of generational difference?
I have rarely been insulted/attacked of these forums. My ideas have been and many time were stupid to start with. This differs form other forums. I would like to think that it is due to a more mature population, but I can not prove this.
So from my uniformed point of view, I think that there maybe a generation gap. But always remember 1 in 10 humans is unequal to any given task, at any given time.

I'm afraid I'm not following you here. What are you implying by mentioning this issue?

HikageMaru · « **Reply #12 on:** 21 October 2012, 19:39:17 »

Quote from: Youngblood on 21 October 2012, 18:26:23

I'm afraid I'm not following you here. What are you implying by mentioning this issue?

I think he's saying that it could be a misunderstanding rather than intentional bad behavior that could be causing some problems.

Sorta like the Capellans. People think their evil, but they're not. There is this great misperception of the noble Capellan people and its glorious Chancellorship that has led to much misunderstanding and conflict. For example....

Col.Hengist · « **Reply #13 on:** 21 October 2012, 19:50:33 »

Quote from: HikageMaru on 21 October 2012, 19:39:17

I think he's saying that it could be a misunderstanding rather than intentional bad behavior that could be causing some problems.

Sorta like the Capellans. People think their evil, but they're not. There is this great misperception of the noble Capellan people and its glorious Chancellorship that has led to much misunderstanding and conflict. For example....

Well of cource the Cappies are evil...Mad Max had a snidley whiplash mustache he twirled wile cackling maniacly...

Should i put in an emoticon here to show I'm joking?

StoneRhino · « **Reply #14 on:** 21 October 2012, 23:58:43 »

Quote from: Col.Hengist on 21 October 2012, 19:50:33

Well of cource the Cappies are evil...Mad Max had a snidley whiplash mustache he twirled wile cackling maniacly...

Should i put in an emoticon here to show I'm joking?

Clearly someone has been given a sippy cup of Davion Kool-aid.

The longer I am around the game, the more I see davion as being the real evil instigator, its just that they have more money to fund the propaganda machine.

Arkansas Warrior · « **Reply #15 on:** 22 October 2012, 00:38:26 »

Your Capellan propaganda is transparently obvious, you despicable Liaoist slime!

StCptMara · « **Reply #16 on:** 22 October 2012, 00:42:16 »

Quote from: StoneRhino on 21 October 2012, 23:58:43

Clearly someone has been given a sippy cup of Davion Kool-aid. The longer I am around the game, the more I see davion as being the real evil instigator, its just that they have more money to fund the propaganda machine.

You have just NOW figured that out? I mean...let's see, the Davion's knew who Richard Cameron had chosen as his successor
if his family died out, and refused to tell anyone, and got the jump on the 1st Succession War because of it. They are the reason the Capellan Confederation exists as we know it today because their attacks into the areas that would become the Confederation forced that region of space to unit against them. Let's not forget Hanse's, while provoked, 4th Succession War
and War of 3039 where Davion forces struck first..

Stormfury · « **Reply #17 on:** 22 October 2012, 01:22:18 »

Quote from: StoneRhino on 21 October 2012, 11:59:27

I am glad to see that this thread was unlocked. When I first saw the thread, which was soon after it started I didn't really care. I understood why he was leaving, trust me I know the feeling. But, I really did not think much of it until I saw that it got locked. That's when it started to matter and kind of annoyed me since he wasn't trying to throw firebombs on his way out, just saying he was leaving and why.

I don't know if you are referring to LotB, but for me that is the BT forum of choice. I come here not expecting much, not expecting to remember who I have commented towards and if my posts were even read. It leads me to cut a post in half feeling that it is pointless. Other times, I don't post because I know I might say something some people might take wrong. I know that some people seem to be able to say certain things at people and never get smacked with a warning or ban because they are slightly different then the rest of the group here. I know that they can unload tons of snark and never get any blowback for it, where I and others show signs of frustration at someone and we know damn well that we are going to see a PM from a mod.

Does the moderation help? Sure, if it is evenly applied, which again I don't really believe it is. It also seems to be applied in a manner in which someone can fire off 2 or 3 rounds at me to which I post a not as pointed as I could response. As soon as I drop my post I can't even go and grab a drink and come back without a mod bustin my balls with a warning. To me it seems unfair that some are hammered as soon as the post is dropped and others can have half a day at least and not have a mod blow up their posts that offend someone into action because apparent mod apathy, essentially saying that some of us are on our own.

Other times, I just don't want to post because of the uneven moderation. I would rather frequent a forum that is unmoderated where if someone says something stupid to me that I have the green light to make em cry. I would rather go to a stricter site because I know those that work to try and offend me are going to be set ablaze by a mod long before I ever see the post, instead of 2 days going by without it being looked at. The way I see it is that either you are a target because you say something stupid, regardless of gender,age, if you are buddy buddy with a mod, or the mods hammer everyone. Giving mixed signals sucks and does nothing for the community.

I agree, older versions of this forum were a lot to frequent because things were less strict for some of us, and the moderation was faster, but also far more fair. I prefer the forum where I know if someone says something stupid I can torch them for it. I hate the feeling of walking on eggshells on this forum. It is the official forum, but it needs to decide if it is going to be moderated or not, and if it is moderated it needs to be even and just as quick for everyone to be hammered, not just certain individuals. Basically, if I can say that someone posted something negative towards me 2 days ago and the post was still there to see and respond, then I might be partial responsible for what I said, but had the post not been there, meaning had the mods did their job fairly then I would have had nothing to respond to.

possibly going in circles due to the absolute frustration with the moderation that seems to be unfairly applied and continues to get worse. Only reason to post about it is because maybe someone will review the policy and responses of the mods so as to adjust to unfair timing of mod responses that give a mixed signal.

So much this.

GreenDragon · « **Reply #18 on:** 22 October 2012, 01:46:02 »

Quote from: StoneRhino on 21 October 2012, 23:58:43

Clearly someone has been given a sippy cup of Davion Kool-aid. The longer I am around the game, the more I see davion as being the real evil instigator, its just that they have more money to fund the propaganda machine.

What is this fascination with Kool-aid? Now if you will excuse me, I'm gonna go have a Hanse Davion at Arby's.

Stormlion1 · « **Reply #19 on:** 22 October 2012, 02:00:08 »

Wow, it only took five pages for a thread about someone leaving to devolve into a capcon-fedsuns emity thread. Seriously can't you all remember that the capcon is just a minor annoyance and the ral threat is the Dragon?

StoneRhino · « **Reply #20 on:** 22 October 2012, 08:19:36 »

Quote from: StCptMara on 22 October 2012, 00:42:16

You have just NOW figured that out?

No, if you saw some other posts by me I suggest that I tire of the false white knight image that we have been forced to endure for far to long. I don't recall beating on the little guy being a claim to fame as being fair, honest, and righteous. Self righteous, sure. As a fan of the Dragon I see through the nonsense and flavorless roast beef sandwiches of indoctrination. >:/!

StoneRhino · « **Reply #21 on:** 22 October 2012, 08:20:08 »

Quote from: Stormfury on 22 October 2012, 01:22:18

So much this.

O0 I'm glad I could say what others were also feeling as well.

Sid · « **Reply #22 on:** 22 October 2012, 09:16:34 »

Quote from: StoneRhino on 22 October 2012, 08:20:08

O0 I'm glad I could say what others were also feeling as well.

For those feeling they're being unfairly persecuted by the mods; perhaps the issue isn't the mods but rather forum users that report people they don't agree with?

For example, I know Stormfury and I have dereailed and argued more than our fair share of threads. Hell, they've gotten heated as well- I think some may have even been locked at some point.

The point is, if things were as bad as some seem to think, wouldn't the mods descend upon us with all guns shooting as soon as a...er...'discussion' between us came about? Or the many other 'discussions' I see crop up upon these boards? But they don't- either the mods recognize the respect thing Stormfury and I have for eachother (I think we have one anyway), they're taking bets on which one of us flips the table first or... maybe their not gunning for us.

And we're not the only ones. I see plenty of heated 'discussions' on these boards, and yet, most often, I see a couple days pass before a cautionary post by a mod that says something to effect "Yes, we know this thread exists. Don't forget we're around- so behave", which is, quite honestly, how it should be.

So. I have to wonder. For those that seem to recall being singled out in such arguments- privately- maybe for every warning you've gotten from a certain mod, he or she has had to sift through fifty or so complaints by people...and one of them was actually 'legitimate'?

For the truly paranoid, maybe you have a couple of stalkers on here you've cross (for whatever reason) and when they see one of your posts they hit a 'report to mod' post.

(I suspect I've skirted the line more than once- and probably crossed it more than the times I've received a warning. So, I suppose either I'm a favorite pet of the mods (unlikely) or I just happen to argue with people who don't get offended as easily as others and don't hit the 'report' button (likelier). Note that I'm not saying people are 'thin skinned'- just some weather abuse better I suppose

)

The Mighty ACHOO · « **Reply #23 on:** 22 October 2012, 09:29:03 »

I just let the moderators do their thankless job and try to give them nothing to slap me for. That is why I lurk in the halls below and rarely post in the upper sections. I have been here for a very long time and there are few arguements that I have not seen before, or even been a part of at one time or another. For years now I only check out the rules clarifications.

Besides, we Taurians have never signed anybody's accords and reserve the right to occasionally invade Arby's for lostech. And a Sammich or two.

Malich · « **Reply #24 on:** 22 October 2012, 09:38:05 »

As i said, only the cut and dried rules breaches are handled without a discussion.

If we saw politics, religion or a cut and dried "you're a *******" then we'd handle it without talking to other mods.

If we see a thread early enough to post a "calm it down" message we will. but often the first we know of a problem is when it's already crossed the line. At which point telling people to pull back from that is like asking 2 participants in a war for a ceasefire. It can work, but much of the time it's gone too far.

Stormfury · « **Reply #25 on:** 22 October 2012, 10:18:17 »

Quote from: Sid on 22 October 2012, 09:16:34

For those feeling they're being unfairly persecuted by the mods; perhaps the issue isn't the mods but rather forum users that report people they don't agree with?

Right now and with a minimum of effort I can find five posts containing either direct phrases for which I have been issued a Warning, which contain a blatant personal attack, or which contain levels of hostility above the threshold for which I have been handed a Warning.

All of which I have reported. Some of which I also contacted the site administration about, only to be told by a staff member that those posts had been deemed to conform to the rules.

That rankles.

The views of a poster or their user name should be irrelevant, as should be the volume (or lack thereof) of reports coming in about them. Either something is against the rules, or it is not, and that decision should apply to all users.

StCptMara · « **Reply #26 on:** 22 October 2012, 11:11:47 »

Quote from: Stormfury on 22 October 2012, 10:18:17

The views of a poster or their user name should be irrelevant, as should be the volume (or lack thereof) of reports coming in about them. Either something is against the rules, or it is not, and that decision should apply to all users.

You know, yes, that is true in an ideal world. Tell, me though....have you ever read a post as more aggressive then it
really was because the person's avatar was something extremely aggressive or condescending? I know that I have,
and, as a psych student, I should know better.

Now, the Mods, as much as we don't want to believe this, are human. Even if they do weigh everything intently before
taking an action, I am sure that, like most humans, they have biases that come through. They are not perfect. I mean,
it is POSSIBLE that one Mod can make a great case when something would normally garner a Warning and persuade
others that either it can be handled with a friendly message, or for something that would normally get a friendly "watch it" instead come out with a warning. Thing is: You will not find ANY forum where that is not going to be the case. Here, the Mods do, from my experience, try to be fair. And, also, when I have gotten warnings, the Mods ALWAYS give me a detailed explanation of what rule it violated, and how. My most recent warning(from July), I fully understood why it was decided that I had crossed a line....and I have avoided letting myself get that emotionally upset while posting again. On the CthulhuTech forums, I got Perma SITE BANNED for quoting passages from the CthulhuTech books that disagreed with what one of their writers was saying, without a warning, message, or any other reason. And, then, there is the DumpShock forums where it took me giving a graphic description of what I wanted to do to someone when I asked for how to do something using the rules, and someone gave me his house rule(hint: my description was an homage to a dinner scene in the Sean Connery movie, The Untouchables). And, I do not even go near 4Chan's forums. I prefer the moderation here and on the official shadowrun forums to DumpShock's nearly free-for-all, and the jackboots of the Cthulhutech forums.

Think about this: What other forum can one actually feel comfortable sending a PM to an Admin to ask a question about
the meaning of a slang term? What other forum would one feel comfortable enough that, they see something they think one of the mods would appreciate, and shoot a PM and link off to them? I have done both here. I believe that Catalyst's official forums are the most fair and impartial I have seen. Which is why I am still ON these forums.

Stormfury · « **Reply #27 on:** 22 October 2012, 11:41:03 »

Quote

You know, yes, that is true in an ideal world. Tell, me though....have you ever read a post as more aggressive then it really was because the person's avatar was something extremely aggressive or condescending? I know that I have, and, as a psych student, I should know better.

Again; it should not matter. If it was worthy of a Warning when I said it, it should be worthy of a Warning when those words are used verbatim no matter who it is by. If the way I said something was too hostile, when other posts are far more provocative they should also be worthy of a Warning. And if it was a Personal Attack when I said something, a more blatant and offensive Personal Attack should also be worthy of a Warning.

It's a long-standing trend here. Certain posters are afforded an incredible amount of leeway and can regularly make posts that I know would result in Warnings being handed down to anyone else. Not just me.

If it is against the rules, it should always be treated the same way.

Quote

Think about this: What other forum can one actually feel comfortable sending a PM to an Admin to ask a question about the meaning of a slang term?

RPG.net.

I would be extremely hesitant to PM any moderator here about anything, at all, ever. Over there? Not so much.

In any case, all this is really doing is raising my frustration levels. StoneRhino said what I've been thinking and feeling, what I know other posters here have been thinking and feeling, for quite some time, in a fashion a lot more cordial than I could manage. I'll leave it at that.

Wombat · « **Reply #28 on:** 22 October 2012, 12:35:58 »

Bah, they're just people. Most of them put their pants on one leg at a time (though rumor has it Chunga can fly). They operate under a mandate and try to do the best they can with what they have to work with. Its not a paid job, but is absolutely a job.

Have a question? Concern? Ask. I'm betting you don't get lambasted for asking. Contrary to rumor, most of them are understanding, sympathetic, and even compassionate.

In fact, did you know you can even private message a mod and "test" a post out on them...just to see if it violates posting policy. Sure they might not answer back right away, but it beats time in the penalty box.

You don't get warnings or bans for private messaging a question. I imagine most mods would (probably) appreciate, and possibly prefer, us bouncing any potential line-skirting issues or potentially inflammatory posts with them via private message before they are forced to flash their badge.

TigerShark · « **Reply #29 on:** 22 October 2012, 12:46:42 »

Should it even get to that point? Having to PM mods to see if some innocuous post is worthy of being banned? Most of the "violations" here are nit picking and wouldn't even get so much as a glance on other forums. I had one for the size of my signature at the bottom of my post, despite seeing many, on the SAME PAGE that were bigger. I see some on this page that are larger than what I got warned for, and this thread is being watched with eagle eyes. lol

I can see where most are coming from. Way too many rules that, in the end, will be left to a personal interpretation.