Onager SP Thumper

[Daryk]

This about as cheap as I was able to get a self-propelled Thumper.  You could probably go slower, but I figured 4/6 on wheels was about the minimum. Commercial armor would be cheaper, and give a bit more resistance to counter-battery fire (that comes in 5-point groups), but SAW doesn't seem to be doing Commercial quite right at the moment.  I would figure two of these per "lance", with support (ammo) and bodyguard vehicles rounding it out.  Three of those lances would provide a full battery of artillery pieces (six) with an appropriate amount of support.

You can get to 5/8 with a Fuel Cell engine, which would actually give you another half ton of armor, but at a cost of roughly another 150K C-Bills.

Code: [Select]

Onager

Mass: 30 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Motive Type: Wheeled
Rules Level: Experimental Tech
Era: Succession Wars
Tech Rating/Era Availability: D/X-C-C-B
Production Year: 3025
Dry Cost: 353,625 C-Bills
Total Cost: 362,625 C-Bills
Battle Value: 189

Power Plant:  100 I.C.E.
Cruise Speed: 43.2 km/h
Flanking Speed: 64.8 km/h
Armor:  Standard Armor
Armament:
    1  Thumper
Manufacturer:
    Primary Factory:
Communications System:
Targeting and Tracking System:

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard                      12 points                3.00
Engine:             I.C.E. Engine                100                       6.00
    Cruise MP:  4
    Flank MP:   6
Heat Sinks:         Single Heat Sink             0                         0.00
Control Equipment:                                                         1.50
Lift Equipment:                                                            0.00
Armor:              Standard Armor               AV -  40                  2.50

                                                      Armor     
                                                      Factor     
                                               Front     10       
                                          Left/Right   10/10       
                                                Rear     10       

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat     Spaces     Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thumper                                      FR        6         1        15.00
@Thumper (40)                                BD        -         0         2.00

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:      1    Points: 2
4w         2       0       0       0      1     0   Structure:  1
Special Abilities: ARTT, EE

[DOC_Agren]

very nice..  and as soon as my primary laptop is back up and running I will try to get my "Big Brother" to this with a Long Tom.
They made a nice Company to shell my enemies with, especially after Max Tech and longer ranges for Arty.

[Daryk]

If I remember right, it's possible to cram one into a 50-ton vehicle, so good luck!  :thumbsup:

[Dapper Apples]

If we're posting minimalist self-propelled guns, I had made a pair of self-propelled field guns, a 15 ton AC/2 carrier and a 'heavy' 20 ton AC/5 carrier.

Those were tracked ICE guns with 4/6 speed, though you could go wheels and get 5/8.  Even with the higher speed wheels save you some 10-20k c-bills, but with tracks it's a bit easier to stuff into woods.

I went with standard armor (keep it introtech I guess) so the AC/2 gets 12/5/5/2 @ 1.5 tons, the AC/5 16/6/6/4 @ 2 tons.  It spares two tons for ammo, so special ammo could be an option.

I'm picturing something like an early WWII open-top tank destroyer, hence the rear armor being more of a suggestion. 151,800 c-bills for the light one, 252,800 for the heavy one.

Code: [Select]

Self Propelled Field Gun (AC2)

Mass: 15 tons
Movement Type: Tracked
Power Plant: 60 ICE
Cruising Speed: 43.2 kph
Maximum Speed: 64.8 kph
Armor: Standard
Armament:
     1 AC/2
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 2600
Tech Rating/Availability: E/C-D-D-D
Cost: 151,800 C-bills

Type: Self Propelled Field Gun
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Introductory)
Movement Type: Tracked
Tonnage: 15
Battle Value: 139

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure                                  1.5
Engine                        60 ICE                  3
Cruising MP: 4
Flank MP: 6
Heat Sinks:                   0                       0
Control Equipment:                                  1.0
Power Amplifier:                                    0.0
Armor Factor                  24                    1.5

                          Internal   Armor   
                          Structure  Value   
     Front                   2         12   
     R/L Side               2/2       5/5   
     Rear                    2         2     


Weapons
and Ammo              Location    Tonnage   
AC/2                   Front        6.0     
AC/2 Ammo (90)          Body        2.0     

----------

Heavy Self Propelled Field Gun (AC5)

Mass: 20 tons
Movement Type: Tracked
Power Plant: 80 ICE
Cruising Speed: 43.2 kph
Maximum Speed: 64.8 kph
Armor: Standard
Armament:
     1 AC/5
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 2600
Tech Rating/Availability: E/C-C-D-D
Cost: 252,800 C-bills

Type: Heavy Self Propelled Field Gun
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Introductory)
Movement Type: Tracked
Tonnage: 20
Battle Value: 209

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure                                    2
Engine                        80 ICE                  5
Cruising MP: 4
Flank MP: 6
Heat Sinks:                   0                       0
Control Equipment:                                  1.0
Power Amplifier:                                    0.0
Armor Factor                  32                      2

                          Internal   Armor   
                          Structure  Value   
     Front                   2         16   
     R/L Side               2/2       6/6   
     Rear                    2         4     


Weapons
and Ammo              Location    Tonnage   
AC/5                   Front        8.0     
AC/5 Ammo (40)          Body        2.0     



[Daryk]

I think two tons of AC/2 ammo is overkill, and 2.5 tons of armor is PPC proof in all directions.  It would cost a little more, but it would be worth it.

[CVB]

If I remember right, it's possible to cram one into a 50-ton vehicle, so good luck!  :thumbsup:

When you accept 3/5MP...

50t, FCE, 1LT, tractor/trailer hitch front and rear

Wheeled: 130FCE leaves you 7t for armor and ammo (frex 20points all around and 10 shots)
Tracked: 150FCE leaves  you 5,5t for armor and ammo

To go with 4/6 MP, a wheeled LT carrier leaves 4t, a tracked one just 2t.

Coupling with a 25t ammo trailer (moved by a faster tractor during strategic movement) gives you deep ammo stores  :)

[Daryk]

SAW says you can do it with a bit less ammo and armor with an ICE too (probably for a lot less money).

[DevianID]

Most self propelled guns in the thumper 155ish group today are in the 40+ ton range, so this is minimalist indeed.  Straddling the line between field guns and the full on existing self propelled thumpers like a Thor or, ironically, Thumper, fills a good niche.  Its cheaper than the karanov Thumper too.

[CVB]

SAW says you can do it with a bit less ammo and armor with an ICE too (probably for a lot less money).

At 3/5  yes (although a tracked 3/5 at 1.5t left for armor and ammo gets real tight), at 4/6 no.

[Hellraiser]

I'm not sure I'd bother with a 50T version.

My LRM Carrier (Long Tom) variant has all the weaknesses of the "Carrier" series which is pretty bad.

Shaving off 10 more tons much of which would come from Armor & Ammo is an even worse idea.

I think the happiest place I found for a "Cheap" LT that was still pretty useful/functional in terms of not "POP-ing" the minute you looked at it was 70T Wheeled Chassis.
Of course Motive hits still were a bad thing but at least it wasn't cored easily by a single mech running by & giving it a kick.

[Daryk]

The only real reason to do it at 50 tons is to be able to cram it into a Light Vehicle Bay.

[DOC_Agren]

The only real reason to do it at 50 tons is to be able to cram it into a Light Vehicle Bay.

Bingo

Huntsman Long Tom Support Vehicle

Code: [Select]

Movement Type: Wheeled
Tonnage: 50
Cost: 1,647,917 C-bills
Battle Value: 250
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 10.0
Engine: 130 9.0
Type: ICE
Cruise MP: 3
Flank MP: 5
Heat Sinks: 0 0.0
Control Equipment: 2.5
Lift Equipment: 0.0
Power Amplifier: 0.0
Turret: 0.0
Armor Factor: 40 2.5
Armor
Value
Front 10
L/R Side 10/10
Rear 10

Weapons and Ammo Location Tons
Long Tom Rear 30.0
Ammo (Long Tom) 5 Body 1.0
Only five shots but the good thing is the park this so it fires from the rear, and you get full movement leaving.

fixed now Daryk.

[Daryk]

2.5 tons of armor was 40 points last I checked... any idea what happened there?

[VhenRa]

I'm not sure I'd bother with a 50T version.

My LRM Carrier (Long Tom) variant has all the weaknesses of the "Carrier" series which is pretty bad.

Shaving off 10 more tons much of which would come from Armor & Ammo is an even worse idea.

I think the happiest place I found for a "Cheap" LT that was still pretty useful/functional in terms of not "POP-ing" the minute you looked at it was 70T Wheeled Chassis.
Of course Motive hits still were a bad thing but at least it wasn't cored easily by a single mech running by & giving it a kick.

I've gone the SRM/LRM Carrier hull for Long Toms before.

It works... sufficiently. Its not great, but it does work so it's... alright.

[Daryk]

Thanks for the fix, DOC!  :thumbsup:

[Hellraiser]

Bingo 

Oh, I know that reason, I just don't happen to think its a good one.

I'm not interested in occupying one of my very few DS bays in my invasion with a unit that is going to get perma-killed by the first Light Combat unit that happens to pass by on a patrol.

That isn't an effective use of my transport capabilities, IMO.

Not that I'm saying -50t is a bad idea.  (Chaparral, Regulator, Karnov, YellowJacket)

Just that I'm going to stick to lighter guns that can still give me enough armor to take a hit or 5 before I have to order a new tank from the factory at full cost.

50t, LONG TOM is the bad idea here.   Thumper/Arrow is what I'll be using for those bays however.

[Daryk]

When bays costs are multiplied by either Dropship cost factor, light ones win hands down.  That assumes, of course, you want to be able to put the guns into action immediately on landing.  If you can wait for them to be unloaded as cargo, a heavier chassis totally works.

[Hellraiser]

When bays costs are multiplied by either Dropship cost factor, light ones win hands down.  That assumes, of course, you want to be able to put the guns into action immediately on landing.  If you can wait for them to be unloaded as cargo, a heavier chassis totally works.

We aren't talking about dropship construction options though.

I'm saying I don't want to take a crap unit w/ me on offense if at all possible.

It's like saying taking the AC20-Urbanmech or the Large Laser-Charger into a fight is a good idea.
Neither of the above is a mech I ever hope to be saddled with in combat.
  That's punishment duty for the guy that dated the General's daughter & now he doesn't want him coming home from the mission.

IF I have to have some Artillery & I ONLY have a Seeker w/ Light Bays to move them, that's cool, I just use the the above listed options (I'm sure there are others).

Heck, my home brew home campaign actually had that exact set up.
The arti lances in the Striker Support Companies just didn't have access to Long Tom artillery.
And IIRC the only Snipers were attached to the Motorized Infantry as Field artillery

[Daryk]

Field artillery is probably the most efficient way to deploy artllery from a dropship, at least if you don't expect it move far afterward.

For a 3/5 chassis with a Long Tom, 1.6M is a reasonable cost.  How much does the 60 ton version run?

[CVB]

For me it depends on what game I'm playing. When it's about a one-off game with on-board (as in placed on the game map) arty, the 50t LT SPG is bad. When I play in a campaign with off-board artillery lobbing shells from 25-30 map boards away, it's much more passable.

Is the M109 a bad SPG because it can't stand up to an MBT in a direct confrontation? Like most current SPGs it's only armored against small arms, shrapnel and shell splinters, and can't fire while moving, after all.

[Hellraiser]

Field artillery is probably the most efficient way to deploy artllery from a dropship, at least if you don't expect it move far afterward.

For a 3/5 chassis with a Long Tom, 1.6M is a reasonable cost.  How much does the 60 ton version run?

Working & can't check my old files, but the 3025-LRM carrier is 1,872,000 per MUL so something similar is my guess given the Long Tom is less $$ than 3 LRM racks per Sarna.

Hey Field Artillery moves...... 1 MP is MOVING....hehe

[Daryk]

True, that's why I included "far" as a qualifier... :)

[DOC_Agren]

Oh, I know that reason, I just don't happen to think its a good one.

I'm not interested in occupying one of my very few DS bays in my invasion with a unit that is going to get perma-killed by the first Light Combat unit that happens to pass by on a patrol.

That isn't an effective use of my transport capabilities, IMO.

Not that I'm saying -50t is a bad idea.  (Chaparral, Regulator, Karnov, YellowJacket)

Just that I'm going to stick to lighter guns that can still give me enough armor to take a hit or 5 before I have to order a new tank from the factory at full cost.

50t, LONG TOM is the bad idea here.   Thumper/Arrow is what I'll be using for those bays however.

If my Long Toms, are within someone Patrol Zone, then I have done something very wrong...  They are normally deep off the target zone, shelling "targets" 20+ map boards out.   
I'm not bring them on Raids, these are for long term combat operations.
Yep, I have had them overrun by a "friend" who went hunting them once my Rounds start landing, but I was focused on the target zone and not his end run.
I have also lost them to Conventional Fighter Bombs Runs, where I thought I had control of the sky, and I missed the Nap of Earth run..

But I understand your reasoning

[AlphaMirage]

I like it though I always mount my artillery facing rear so you bug out faster from your hull-down position. It is also very cinematic for the OP design as you have to watch out for it's 'kick.'

[Daryk]

DOC: you experienced your opponent acquiring the coup d'oeil achievement...  ^-^

AlphaMirage: an interesting idea, but one that has yet to be implemented in the real world.  I suppose the consensus is that you should have time to turn around before needing to bug out...

[AlphaMirage]

Not entirely true my thumper model was inspired by this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1129_Mortar_Carrier and this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2S4_Tyulpan could definitely be a Sniper.

I think the main reason modern howitzers are in turrets is for rapid gun laying and aren't forcing your front into the ground with recoil and you can keep up with the armor you are supporting. In the case of mortars like those above, that's not as big a concern they're less likely to be moving at tank speed.

[Hellraiser]

I like it though I always mount my artillery facing rear so you bug out faster from your hull-down position. It is also very cinematic for the OP design as you have to watch out for it's 'kick.'

Chaparral has the SRM-6 facing backwards & heavier armor in the Rear IIRC.
Arrow is facing front so you can pull up & fire, but when its time to actually RUNAWAY, the heavier armor & the SRM-6 are there to discourage pursuit & absorb some hits.

[Dapper Apples]

tbh "real" long tom carriers would probably be railroad mounted, you turn it around by towing the rear of it.

[Daryk]

Not entirely true my thumper model was inspired by this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1129_Mortar_Carrier and this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2S4_Tyulpan could definitely be a Sniper.
*snip*

I stand corrected!  Thanks!  :thumbsup: