Explain to me the Taurian Concordat.

[Warclaw]

Events in the past that clearly demonstrate an established pattern.

By that logic I can point to the repeated and acknowledged atrocities of the 1st and 2nd succession wars (Including WMD's and massacres of civilians) to "Prove" that the Davions of today are the exact same war-mongering invaders that the Taurians believe them to be.  "That was a long time ago." you say?  EXACTLY.  Three incidents, of which the most recent was 250 years BCE aren't a compelling case.

The response to the Urukhai was to attack a mercenary unit that they knew was only there for a contract (Roosterboy has posted this before, too...), get huffy when the rest of the unit showed up looking for blood, and then conclude that Duke Hasek was five seconds away from launching an all-out assault on the Taurian Concordat despite having no troops in position, no preperations to that effect, and was already happily engaged in attacking the Capellan Confederation, so the best thing to do was to attack four enemy worlds.

They "Knew"?  I suppose you have a CANON link to that data?  I am not saying it doesn't exist, but I have not seen it stated as a Canon fact, so if you can provide that link, I would be glad to see it.  Otherwise, I cannot assume that knowledge on the part of the Taurians.

The Urukhai were not on the offensive. The Concordat still attacked them (out of paranioa), then went on the warpath against the Suns (again, out of paranoia). The same way the TDF has repeatedly acted over centuries.

The Urukhai incident I will give you as possibly paranoid, pending the aforementioned link request.  And either way, attacking the Suns over it WAS sheerest folly.  Regardless of motivation, the Pleiades assault was a colossal blunder, and completely without realistic chance of success.  In fact, unless I am mistaken, it was SUPPOSED to only be a punitive raid, but spun wildly out of control.  But again, if you can provide a link to a canon resource, or even a book and page number where I might find a canon statement otherwise?  Please do.

If you're going to dismiss all prior instances in which the TDF did the same thing and all of the many repeated references in canon to the Concordat's paranoiac outlook on their neighbours, then yes. I suppose there is no "proof" that the Pleiades campaign was out of character.

All prior instances?  Three incidents over 500 years, the newest of which was 250 years BCE do not a pattern make.  I agree the Urukhai were most likely a massive overreaction, and the Pleiades a fiasco, but I just don't see a pattern here.  Otherwise the TC would have had a very different reputation.

If they were the aggressive paranoid expansionists that you paint them as, they would have more likely been viewed as mad dogs, little better than a large pirate kingdom, instead of how they were viewed.  As hyper-defensive, semi-isolationists.  Not exactly warm and fuzzy neighbors, but not rabid animals looking only for weakness.

[Moonsword]

Gentlemen, settle down and mind Rule 3.  The arguments are going in circles.

[Stormfury]

By that logic I can point to the repeated and acknowledged atrocities of the 1st and 2nd succession wars (Including WMD's and massacres of civilians) to "Prove" that the Davions of today are the exact same war-mongering invaders that the Taurians believe them to be.  "That was a long time ago." you say?  EXACTLY.  Three incidents, of which the most recent was 250 years BCE aren't a compelling case.

Difference being, those were confined to that era, with the current Successor States taking a very different tack. The Taurian outlook and behaviour, on the other hand, has not changed since those days.

They "Knew"?  I suppose you have a CANON link to that data?  I am not saying it doesn't exist, but I have not seen it stated as a Canon fact, so if you can provide that link, I would be glad to see it.  Otherwise, I cannot assume that knowledge on the part of the Taurians.

Here.

All prior instances?  Three incidents over 500 years, the newest of which was 250 years BCE do not a pattern make.  I agree the Urukhai were most likely a massive overreaction, and the Pleiades a fiasco, but I just don't see a pattern here.  Otherwise the TC would have had a very different reputation.

The Taurians do have a reputation as paranioacs, and it is both well-known in-universe and well supported in the text. Virtually every source discussing the Concordat makes mention of it.

If they were the aggressive paranoid expansionists that you paint them as, they would have more likely been viewed as mad dogs, little better than a large pirate kingdom, instead of how they were viewed.  As hyper-defensive, semi-isolationists.  Not exactly warm and fuzzy neighbors, but not rabid animals looking only for weakness.

The way you think I've characterised the Concordat is significantly different to the way I actually did. As I said earlier, they are so paranoid that they make pre-emptive assaults against enemies who had no interest in them, with the attack on the Suns merely being the latest in a long list of similar behaviour.

[Warclaw]

Thank you for the link.

Given that information, the Urukhai incident looks even less justifiable than it already was. Assuming Shraplen and/or his people passed on the information, and it was believed, the reaction by the TDF was completely unwarranted.  Suspicion is one thing, but that...it just doesn't make sense.

[elizibar]

it just doesn't make sense.

Unless you're trying to start a fight, as Stormfury has demonstrated Taurians are wont to do.

[Medron Pryde]

Or if you don't believe that a Davion-contracted mercenary unit who just penetrated your home system and is accelerating towards you capital is there for a good reason.  ;)  I completely understand why someone would shoot them in that case.

It is like a Taliban Cell driving into Washington DC and saying they are coming in peace.  "Yeah right...you're coming in pieces" would be the response.

The punitive raid against the Fed Suns, commanded by a loyal friend of Shraplen, was stupid.  And when that friend (with or without a secret understanding with Shraplen) turned it into an all out invasion of the Pleaides Cluster that was even MORE stupid.

As for the idea that we are talking about changes from 3050 to 3064 and it being a long time, this is incorrect.

http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,15461.msg369078.html#msg369078

I summarized what was in the canon sources there.  From 3025 to 3058, all regimental and corps commanders were slowly and carefully promoted from the lower officers, with corps commanders being previous regimental commanders and regimental commanders being previous battalion commanders.  This was the standard under the Calderons.

Between 3058 and 3064, with Shraplen taking the reigns in 3061, the vast majority of battalion and higher commanders are removed, ALL of the corps commanders are removed, and only three of the new corps commanders have ANY experience of battalion or higher in 3058.  And two of THOSE come from Pleiades Regiments.  In addition, TWO of the Regimental commanders are specifically noted as being friends of Shraplen with much less combat experience than the officers under them.  And one of THOSE officers is the one who led the raid into the FS in response for the Urukai "invasion" and turned that raid into a full invasion of the Pleaides Cluster.

The canon books are CRYSTAL CLEAR that it was the NEW commanders with little experience in battle who were friends of Shraplen who started the war with the Fed Suns or who drove mercenary regiments away from the TC by driving tanks through their command bases.  These were commanders who did not serve in command positions under the Calderons.

[Medron Pryde]

What drew me to the Taurian Concordat was that it seemed the most. . . for lack of a better word, liberal to me.  The society was far more open than many other nations, with many canon references to the arts and literature.  They were decently technologically advanced, had a well maintained, decently large, and well trained military.  They also seemed to be the closest to 'democracy' of many of the CBT nations, with a distinct Social responsibility in the nobles.  Add to this the flaw (which was less pronounced in earlier iterations and references to the Concordat) of the Davion paranoia, and this simply was the best nation for me.

I didn't think of them as liberal, or not as Big L liberal...;)  But I know where you are going there.  The way ComStar described them back in the 3020s and through to the 3050s makes them a very fun faction to play, for all the reasons you noted above.  I honestly wish we could get that faction back in canon as it really WAS a fun one.  :)  So far, the Calderon Protectorate seems to be trying to grow into that faction, so I have hope at the moment.  :)

[Moonsword]

While you're at it, let's not tread too close to Rule 4, either.

[Deadborder]

I'm not denying that the turnover took place, don;t get me wrong. It's there in the books and that's undeniable. What I am questioning are your claims of why it happened.

As I've pointed out, you've failed to provide any supporting evidence to say why those officers were removed/retired/etc, not any supporting evidence to say that the new appointees were entirely Shraplen loyalists/cronies/appointees/etc. I've poured through the same books as you have and, save for that one incident, there's no indications of wild-scale nepotisim or favouritisim. Likewise, you haven't given one single case where a canon source has stated why a previous-generation officer is no longer in their position.

Stormfury's theories on natural turnover due to an officer corps who were outstandingly old (many of whom had been in the same positions from 3025 to 3059) make a lot more sense, and are the sort of natural change that wouldn't really be noted in any sourcebook fluff. Conversely, mass nepotisim, Political Maneuvering and forced retirements and so forth have not been mentioned once (Save for again one example that was more noteworthy in its exceptional nature) would be, and yet I still cannot find a single mention of any of the above in any source.

Again, point me to a sourcebook reference which mentions any of these and I'm glad to consider the weight of your arguments. As it stands, you don't have any tangible evidence beyond your own supposition that such happened.

[Stormfury]

I summarized what was in the canon sources there.  From 3025 to 3058, all regimental and corps commanders were slowly and carefully promoted from the lower officers, with corps commanders being previous regimental commanders and regimental commanders being previous battalion commanders.  This was the standard under the Calderons.

There is absolutely nothing to suggest that it was "the standard under the Calderons," nor any indication that Shraplen was doing anything different to the norm.

Every military in the game remained largely stagnant between 3025 and 3050. Some names, but not many, for every faction changed in that time; more changed by 3058 and again by 3067. Again, true across ever faction, even those not engaged in serious military or political action in that period.

If there was a standard of long training times or Shraplen was deliberately purging the officer corps in favour of personal loyalists, there should be actual evidence thereof. Instead, there are absolutely no textual references that would support or even suggest that either was the case.

[Medron Pryde]

As I've pointed out, you've failed to provide any supporting evidence to say why those officers were removed/retired/etc, not any supporting evidence to say that the new appointees were entirely Shraplen loyalists/cronies/appointees/etc. I've poured through the same books as you have and, save for that one incident, there's no indications of wild-scale nepotisim or favouritisim. Likewise, you haven't given one single case where a canon source has stated why a previous-generation officer is no longer in their position.

You are correct that I have found no information saying why MOST of the high command was dismissed.  We do however know that Brenda Calderon resigned in 3063 as one of the six Marshals, in protest over Kithrong stopping Jeffrey's son from being named the next Protector.  Other senior officers are said to not like Shraplen's orders reversing many of Jeffrey's orders.  Also, the "Espirit de Corps" of the Taurian military is noted to have developed "fracture lines" throughout the military due to elevation of Shraplen.  Brenda Calderon is the only person I know of who was specifically said to have resigned, but FM P paints the picture of a TDF that is deeply unhappy with Shraplen as a Protector, and the various orders that Shraplen has placed in action.

Now, whether they retired in protest, retired from old age, died in combat in Liao space as some did, or were removed, the natural progression as shown in the TDF, looking through all of the books, is to hire someone from below to take up the position above.  Usually a regimental commander becomes a new corps commander, and a battalion commander takes over a regiment.  This really didn't happen much at all between 3058 and 3064.  And when it DID happen, I can point to favoritism.

I don't know who Kai Shoguwa is.  She was a battalion commander in The Condordat Jaegers in 3025, regimental commander in 3054 and 3058, and the corps commander of Corps I in 3064.  I don't know much more about her.  She is the only corps commander in 3064 that is neither completely new, nor easily tracked to a unit that has ties to Shraplen.

Boris Tharn, Senior Marshal and Marshal of III Corps comes from the Pleaides Hussars, a regiment very friendly with Shraplen.

Cham Kithrong of VI Corps comes from the Pleaides Lancers, ANOTHER regiment very friendly with Shraplen and his supporters.  Granted, THAT one came back to bite him, but at least the pedigree was good...;)

I don't know who the other three Corps commanders are as they have no history of command positions in the TDF prior to 3058.

The new commander of the Pleaides Hussars is specifically noted as an old friend of Shraplen, promoted over more capable officers.

The commander of the newly formed 3rd Taurian Lancers (formed by Shraplen's command) is ALSO noted as being an old friend of Shraplen, with little tactical skill.

Only four other regimental commanders have any notations about them, and three of them don't talk about their politics.  Well, 1 is noted as making a request that Shraplen acts on.  Other than that, nothing.  The fourth regimental commander that is talked about is pro-Jeffrey and NOT pro-Shraplen.  ;)

Stormfury's theories on natural turnover due to an officer corps who were outstandingly old (many of whom had been in the same positions from 3025 to 3059) make a lot more sense, and are the sort of natural change that wouldn't really be noted in any sourcebook fluff. Conversely, mass nepotisim, Political Maneuvering and forced retirements and so forth have not been mentioned once (Save for again one example that was more noteworthy in its exceptional nature) would be, and yet I still cannot find a single mention of any of the above in any source.

Actually, very few were in the same positions from 3025 to 3058.  There is a steady progression in the time of Calderon rulership of corps and regimental commanders leaving the TDF and being replaced by lower commanders, with new battalion commanders being introduced.  Between 3050 and 3058, there is very little change though.  The 3058 to 3064 time period is most noticeable by the fact that the slow (or fast for units that fight in the Inner Sphere) promotions do not happen in most cases.  In most cases throughout the TDF in 3064 under Shraplen, the corps and regimental commanders are NOT former regimental or battalion commanders in 3058.  This is not natural turnover, as natural turnover in the Calderon's TDF is to promote battalion officers to higher positions, not unnamed company or lance officers as seems to be the standard under Shraplen's TDF.

Again, point me to a sourcebook reference which mentions any of these and I'm glad to consider the weight of your arguments. As it stands, you don't have any tangible evidence beyond your own supposition that such happened.

Done...:)

[Auman]

To say a military action fought 250 years ago establishes a pattern is to say that the United States is a nation of rebels with an insurgent army... Or that the United Kingdom has an established pattern of being a feudal state that fights wars from horseback hile adhering to a code of chivalric honor. You don't get to bring up ancient history as an example for why a modern state is currently doing what it does. Well, you can, but it doesn't really get you that far.

And the Urukhai were stupid enough to land a combat force to negotiate a contract. Usually that just requires a phone call and a few guys in suits talking about stuff before you land troops, wouldn't you think?

Blackwater didn't roll into the State Department to negotiate their Iraqi contract, after all.

Am I saying the Pleiades incident was justifiable? No... The Taurians are guilty of the things I just mentioned. But it doesn't make Stormfury right either. Need to approach this one from a different angle to convince this observer.

[Archangel]

How is what the Calderons did, or Shraplen did, any different from what the leaders of the Inner Sphere Great Houses do?  Those known to support the policies of the leader have better chances of getting promotions while those who oppose the leader's policies, failed to support the leader's new policies or support something that isn't in line with the leader's policies have a better chance of finding themselves blacklisted, their careers stalled and/or outright dismissed from service.

Anti-CC FWL commanders and anti-DC FC commander both found their stances to no longer be popular with their respective High Commands.  When the FC split, pro-Victor commanders in the LA and pro-Katherine commanders in the FC were forced to deal with hostile High Commands.

[Deadborder]

So to summarise:

• There's no evidence of officers being forced into retirement or pushed aside by Shraplen
• Only a limited number of cases where it can be said that Corps commanders may have been appointed because they were pro-Shraplen as opposed to any other reason
• No evidence of broad cultural change within the TDF

So it can be concluded that the TDF that willingly deposed Thomas Calderon and put Jeffery on the throne is the same TDF that's gladly nuking the people they're trying to liberate in the Peladies.

Thanks for that

[Auman]

Those same principles can be applied to the Calderon Protectorate... Same TDF, new dictator after all.

[Stormfury]

To say a military action fought 250 years ago establishes a pattern is to say that the United States is a nation of rebels with an insurgent army... Or that the United Kingdom has an established pattern of being a feudal state that fights wars from horseback hile adhering to a code of chivalric honor. You don't get to bring up ancient history as an example for why a modern state is currently doing what it does. Well, you can, but it doesn't really get you that far.

We have already been directed by a moderator to steer clear of real-world politics.

Regardless, there is a major difference between what you are talking about and what happened with the Taurian Concordat; the Concordat's paranioa has been fundamental to the nation and is the trigger for their military misadventures. It isn't a matter of five hundred years ago, or two hundred and fifty years ago; it is endemic to the Concordat.

It is something they constantly do. RPG characters from the Taurian Concordat even begin play with a Quirk to represent it, and their tendancy to view the Suns as being perpetually on the verge of launching an assault that will destroy them all despite the Suns never even having a plan for such an excursion, much less any actual preperations to do so, is not a new thing and long pre-dates Thomas Calderon.

And the Urukhai were stupid enough to land a combat force to negotiate a contract. Usually that just requires a phone call and a few guys in suits talking about stuff before you land troops, wouldn't you think?

The Urukhai were being run out of the Federated Suns at the time and dispatched only a token force to the Concordat to attempt to negotiate a contract. Shraplen convinced everyone this was the prelude to an all-out Suns attack, and ordered the Urukhai shot down; the rest of the unit then learned of what had happened and set out to take revenge.

Shraplen, as I've already pointed out, knew why the (small) force of Urukhai were present. He could have avoided the reprisal attack by simply turning the Urukhai away.

Am I saying the Pleiades incident was justifiable? No... The Taurians are guilty of the things I just mentioned. But it doesn't make Stormfury right either. Need to approach this one from a different angle to convince this observer.

Are you aware of what happened?

1. A Fighting Urukhai regiment abandoned their post in the Draconis March to attack the Combine in support of Duke Aaron Sandoval's strikes.
2. The remainder of the Urukhai are cut loose by the Federated Suns and ordered to leave their space.
3. The Urukhai figure the Concordat might give them a chance to get some payback on the Suns and send a small force to try and negotiate a contract while the remainder of the unit packs up.
4. Shraplen flips out despite knowing the truth about the Urukhai. He orders them attacked; the Urukhai attempt, unsuccessfully, to defend themselves and flee.
5. The rest of the Urukhai hear about what has happened and decide to settle the score.
6. Urukhai prisoners captured and interrogated after the battle reveal to the Taurians that the Jump approaches to the Hyades Cluster have been sold by a Taurian defector and are becoming more well-known.
7. Shraplen concludes that Duke George Hasek, as military commander of a region where the Jump coordinates are being slowly circulated, is planning a blitz on the Concordat.
8. Shraplen gathers a task force that just so happens to contain the Pleiades legacy units and dispatches them on a pre-emptive spoiling attack to forestall Hasek's invasion.
9. The Capellan March's military, embroiled in the FedCom Civil War and Hasek's own personal war with the Capellan Confederation, are spread too thin to repel the Taurians. The success of the attack prompts the Pleiades units to "go rogue" and launch an assault into territory the Taurians lost several centuries ago.
10. The Taurian attacks into the Pleiades bog down, resulting in shipments of nuclear weapons to TDF elements. The Medusans are hired to try and stem the flow of such material into the Pleiades.
11. Taurian troops conduct, among other things, the Bromhead Massacre.

The actions of the Concordat were utterly indefensible.

So to summarise:


There's no evidence of officers being forced into retirement or pushed aside by Shraplen
Only a limited number of cases where it can be said that Corps commanders may have been appointed because they were pro-Shraplen as opposed to any other reason
No evidence of broad cultural change within the TDF

So it can be concluded that the TDF that willingly deposed Thomas Calderon and put Jeffery on the throne is the same TDF that's gladly nuking the people they're trying to liberate in the Peladies.

Pretty much. I would say any cultural change, though.

Those same principles can be applied to the Calderon Protectorate... Same TDF, new dictator after all.

Not even close. The Protectorate seceeded because it did not like the continued direction of the Concordat proper.

[Auman]

Still not convincing me of any sort of unwarranted aggression towards the Urukhai. It simply is not smart to land combat forces of any kind without any sort of widely publicized contract in place first... Otherwise you get shot down and otherwise annihilated. My logic really speaks for itself, because that is exactly what happened to them. They decided to land not one, not two, but three dropships... With combat troops inside... To negotiate a contract. I know that the people of this universe mistake the sword for the pen a lot, but this was a case where-in their commanding officer was criminally negligent. You just don't go to a job interview with three car loads of deranged gunmen with bad reputations, regardless of who is hot on your heels.

When it comes to the other thing... I'll relent. I could think of a few examples that have held grudges for about that long.

In closing, the TDF was well within their rights to own the Fighting Urukhai, especially if Shraplen witheld information about their arrival from them. I'd even go as far as to say that the fighting men of that nation performed admirably, even if their commander-in-chief did not. If Shraplen some how orchestrated the murder of those mercenaries, that may lend credence to the conspiracy theories. Doesn't make the Concordat guilty of anything... Makes Shraplen a criminal of the highest order, but it doesn't reflect at all on Concordat as a whole, because that nation is more than one convoluted, power hungry, man.

[elizibar]

"Hey guys we would lik e a job to shoot feddies." is now equivalent to an armed landing party despoiling your world.  Only in Taurus lol

[Stormfury]

Still not convincing me of any sort of unwarranted aggression towards the Urukhai. It simply is not smart to land combat forces of any kind without any sort of widely publicized contract in place first... Otherwise you get shot down and otherwise annihilated. My logic really speaks for itself, because that is exactly what happened to them. They decided to land not one, not two, but three dropships... With combat troops inside... To negotiate a contract. I know that the people of this universe mistake the sword for the pen a lot, but this was a case where-in their commanding officer was criminally negligent. You just don't go to a job interview with three car loads of deranged gunmen with bad reputations, regardless of who is hot on your heels.

The Urukhai negotiation team was attacked in space, by the Taurians, who knew that the Urukhai were there seeking employment. As I said, they attempted unsuccessfully to defend themselves. They did what they could with what they had to hand.

In closing, the TDF was well within their rights to own the Fighting Urukhai, especially if Shraplen witheld information about their arrival from them. I'd even go as far as to say that the fighting men of that nation performed admirably, even if their commander-in-chief did not. If Shraplen some how orchestrated the murder of those mercenaries, that may lend credence to the conspiracy theories. Doesn't make the Concordat guilty of anything... Makes Shraplen a criminal of the highest order, but it doesn't reflect at all on Concordat as a whole, because that nation is more than one convoluted, power hungry, man.

It is a nation stuffed to the gills with paranoiacs. Every source on the Taurians makes that point, from the earliest material to the Jihad and beyond. Not only do you have the Taurians as a whole convincing themselves that the Urukhai were a Davion decapitation strike force aimed at laying the groundwork for Duke Hasek to destroy the Concordat wholesale, you have the TDF units dispatched to Suns space armed with nuclear weaponry and deciding that a direct assault on civilians to massacre them was a reasonable and justifiable response to their offensive breaking down.

If Shraplen was actually one man who ran against the grain of the Concordat at large (and he wasn't- the only thing he did that the people actually disapproved of was to join the Trinity Alliance), if the response to the Urukhai was not merely one entry on an ever-growing list of Taurian over-reactions, if the Taurians did not have an institutionalised view of the Suns being five seconds away from launching an overwhelming invasion force all day every day, arguments like that would perhaps hold some water.

Unfortunately for the Concordat, nothing could be further from what the text says, and has always said.

[Moonsword]

Gentlemen, you're going in circles on the issue of the officer corps and the Urukhai.  Move on or drop the subject, please.

[Korzon77]

I think the fundamental problem with the TC was that as written in the first book and a few books after that, it was really: the good guys.  DEfensive, a bit paranoid, but fundametnally freer, having better educational set up, a more service oriented nobility, etc, etc.

Problem is, that made for a boring setting, especially if you want to have other factions as anything other than the bad guys, and most importantly, if you don't want them to at some point outright win.  So things had to be introduced to make them less than attractive and give them falws-- big flaws, that could result in them losing out in terms of power.

[Stormfury]

Except that they weren't ever written like that to begin with. In as much as there is a fundamental problem, that is it.

The presentation of the Concordat has never wavered, and there has been no retcon or flanderisation.

[Medron Pryde]

I think the fundamental problem with the TC was that as written in the first book and a few books after that, it was really: the good guys.  DEfensive, a bit paranoid, but fundametnally freer, having better educational set up, a more service oriented nobility, etc, etc.

Problem is, that made for a boring setting, especially if you want to have other factions as anything other than the bad guys, and most importantly, if you don't want them to at some point outright win.  So things had to be introduced to make them less than attractive and give them falws-- big flaws, that could result in them losing out in terms of power.

So they introduced Shraplen and his allies waiting for "the Return" to the Pleaides to give them some SERIOUS flaws and anger management problems...

As an old school Taurian fan, I prefer the way they were written in the beginning.  I have hopes that the Protectorate will do something to fix things there since the Concordat leadership seems rather against the idea of a Calderon leading...I mean...things have worked SO WELL for them since the last Calderon Protector was killed...

 ::)

[Auman]

I think the Taurians future and that of the entire periphery is outward. Paying attention to the Inner Sphere is wasting their time and in the case of the Taurians, wasting lives. They have the option of moving away from the stuff that's holding them back. The Taurian pre-occupation with the Suns lost them new colonies and the Canopian alliance with the Capellans, while giving them access to modern technology, is forcing them to give up their soul.

My two cents... The periphery that isn't burdened by the clans should leave this crap behind.

[Deadborder]

As mentioned, nothing's changed in the writing of the TC.

Speaking of someone who has Periphery 1st Ed (bought new, no less), Paranoia has always been a key part of their psyche. As I said earlier in this thread, Paranoia has guided the Taurian state since the earliest days, their actions being motivated by the fear that they'll be attacked by foreign powers. It's also an unreasonable one at the best of times. There's been no cultural change in time, both in world or with different writers.

The only difference between Then and Now is that Shraplen acted on the national paranoia and decided to strike first in order to deal with this non-existent threat. (A position which, IIRC, Thomas Calderon was considering before he was deposed)

The opposition to a Calderon taking power largely stems from the fact that there are no legitimate heirs. Erik Martens-Calderon was born from an illicit affair, hidden from the nation and never presented as an option for taking the Protectorship. He's only "revealed" when you have a politically ambitious officer who'd found his ambitions thwarted by his political rivals and needed a figurehead for his illegitimate breakaway government.

[Auman]

Yeah... That's been covered a few times already. Best to just give up on that and talk about where our relationship will be in the future, bro. What do you guys think the Taurians should do and where do you think they'll end up if they don't do it? Expand or die, that's the long and short of my opinion.

[Stormfury]

As an old school Taurian fan, I prefer the way they were written in the beginning.

And since nothing has actually changed between their first presentation and now, there should not be a problem.

What do you guys think the Taurians should do and where do you think they'll end up if they don't do it? Expand or die, that's the long and short of my opinion.

If they were smart, they'd avoid confrontations with their vastly more powerful neighbours. The Concordat is a rump state by 3130.

That result should hardly be surprising, of course; the Taurians have been charting the same path since their inception, and viwed reasonably from the exterior their military strength has never been as great as the Taurians believed. I watched the Periphery boards for a long time and saw many hoping that the Taurians would get involved in a no-holds-barred war with the Federated Suns, predicting major successes. Whilst the Concordat may be a big fish in the Periphery, on an absolute scale it still cannot hold a candle to the weakest of the Great Houses, so the outcome of such an attempt was obvious from the start; it was never going to go in favour of the Concordat.

[Medron Pryde]

Yeah... That's been covered a few times already. Best to just give up on that and talk about where our relationship will be in the future, bro. What do you guys think the Taurians should do and where do you think they'll end up if they don't do it? Expand or die, that's the long and short of my opinion.

Honestly, I'm hoping one of two things, and possibly a third.

1) The Taurian Concordat burns itself out and dies, leaving the Calderon Protectorate alone.  The TC's lost what makes it fun, while the good parts of it seem to have gone to the CP.

2) The Calderon Protectorate and the Taurian Concordat come back together as one state.  A part of me wants this.  A part of me doesn't.  A Taurian Concordat with a Calderon in charge and following old school Calderon styles of action would be nice.  But, I'm not entirely certain it fits.  The Calderons (outside Thomas who was a bit insane) from the very beginning were a lot more Far Looker in style than Returner, and in a lot of ways Returning to the old Taurian Concordat seems like a massive step backward.  We've certainly found that the Hyades Cluster is not far enough away from Terra to stay away from its tendrils...

3) Which brings up the final option.  Going further out, and colonizing new planets farther away from Terra.  That would be the true embodiment of the mission of Samantha Calderon...  :)

Of course, this being BattleTech, not PeaceTech, it will probably be a combination of 1 and 2, or maybe something else entirely.  Option 3 is probably a non-starter, unless of course they want us to finally make contact with the Vandenberg White Wings/Minnesota Tribe/Wolverines who are holding off the alien menace of the Grand Tetetai Imperium.  ;)  But I doubt that.  hehehe.

[Deadborder]

The info on the two states from the MWDA "Touring the Stars" Section suggests that the TC and the CP have been locked in a low-intensity civil war for some time which has done little but drain both of them. The TC is depicted as a poor, backwards state with an inflation that's somewhere between "morbid" and "dead on arrival", while the CP doesn't seem to be getting off much better.

No info was given on the hows and whys of this conflict or how it started, so it's impossible to say if one nation or the other was the aggressor.

[worktroll]

Seems logical that both sides would perceive grievances - the Taurians would be angry at a bunch of splitters, and the Concordats would have old grudges against their "old oppressors". With neither having the infrastructure for major wars, it'd be the 3rd and 4th Succession Wars in miniature.

And interestingly, a darned fine place to play an old-style Mad Max-ian campaign, fighting over spare parts and waterholes! Duty vs. Honour in a crumbling, dystopic background.

W.