Was Ulric a traitor?

[Sid]

Clan Wolf dropped after all the other Clans did.  None of the other Clans solicited any advice from him so he was free to do what he wanted.

Ulric was ilKhan.  He was responsible for the entire trial, and was not simply an advisor.  See below:

All their senior leaders were dead or MIA.  Had they remained, the Jaguars likely would have been annihilated especially after Focht started shifting forces away from other.  Yes they might have taken more ComGuards before they were annihilated but the end result would likely have been the Jaguars being forced from the Invasion due to a lack of front-line forces and Ulric could have replaced them with another Clan.  So, technically, it would have been in the Warden's best interests had he not intervened.

Ulric had to order the Jaguars to leave the battle.  He was not 'solicited' by their forces once their Khans appeared to be out of commission, nor did they act upon 'advice'.  They wished to remain and continue to fight.  Now, either Ulric had no authority (as you suggested in the above quote) and overstepped his boundaries here or he had authority and used none of it except for this rare occurrence and the entire Trial portion for Clan Wolf.

As for 'saving' the Jaguars, recall that even after Turkayyid, Smoke Jaguar was still considered by both the Clans and Inner Sphere to be one of the strongest Clans all the way up until 3060.  Their actual weakness was not exposed until Operation Bulldog-  Vlad attacks the Jaguars in '58 to help discourage attempts at Absorption by attacking one of the 'strongest' Clans.

In '52, the very idea that they would be so weakened is even more ridiculous to other Clans, especially when you factor in that the Jaguars had made the lowest bid on Turkayyid. 

And?  Had he been a Crusader, he would probably have done the same thing.

I'm not so sure of that.  In addtion, acting against the best interest of the Invasion is still acting against the best interest of the Invasion.
 

Who was it that invited ComStar into the midst of the Clans?  Hint:  It wasn't Ulric.

Ulric didn't bring Phelan into Clan Wolf either.  He still recognized Focht as he did with Phelan- that they could be used as powerful tools to be used to halt the Invasion.

No manipulation was necessary, they would have done that regardless of who was Khan, especially the Smoke Jaguars who had a lot to prove after Wolcott and Luthien.  Their own competitiveness drove them to it.

An ilKhan's political power had been reduced- not their ability in military matters, and especially as a commander of a trial.  I suggest you take a look at the ilKhan and Bidding sections of Warriors of Kerensky and/or Mechwarrior's Guide to the Clans.  Ulric could have enforced minimum bids or limited the significant cuts to the bids, among other things.

He did nothing.

Funny thing is none of the other Clans fully heeded to his advice.  And, btw, elevating him was their backup plan if their charges didn't stick and they elevated him to remove a Warden Khan from the Grand Council thinking he would chose Conal Ward as his successor.

What advice did Ulric actually give? 

We do know that Ulric had the means to ensure a victory on Turkayyid, as the third Blood of Kerensky book reveals at the end of the trial.

Whenever this comes up on the board, the argument is always the same:  'Ulric didn't do anything'  'It's the fault of the other Clans'  'Ulric tried but the other Clans didn't listen'.

The ilKhan is supposed to unify the Clans together.  That's how the Clans function- you have a Star Colonel that ensures his Star Captains' competition amongst eachother doesn't go too far and compromise the Clan's chance at victory.  Superiors actually lead and manage their people.  Ulric did just enough that he could hide behind an excuse of 'trying'.

Focht and Ulric, in a private conversation, make it quite clear that had Ulric actually put some effort into a Clan victory the Clans would have won Terra in '52. 

He didn't personally agree with the invasion, so he used his position as leader of the invasion to stop it.  If that makes him a traitor or not is debatable.  The fact that he used Focht and ensured the other Clans hung themselves isn't.

And?  So did his predecessor and plenty of other previous ilKhans.

Trent from Clan Smoke Jaguar also aided the Inner Sphere against the Clans.  Does that mean his act wasn't traitorous?

It's debatable as to what the outcome would have been had Chistu not murdered Ulric.  Even without Phelan's Wolves, who eliminated two Falcon Galaxies after their defection to the Inner Sphere, there was a chance for Clan Wolf to win the Refusal War.  Note:  even if Clan Wolf had won, both Clans' toumans would have been heavily depleted.

Victory wasn't an option for Ulric.  Per Page 14 of Falcon and the Wolf sourcebook, Ulric's attack on Wotan hoped to finish crippling the Falcons by killing both Falcon Khans.  Had Ulric 'won', we'd have had the same situation, except the (Crusader) Clan Wolf under Vlad would not exist, and the Exiles would be up to ~6 Galaxies.

One, debatable whether Ulric sent all the best and most Warden forces with Phelan.  The elite 11th Battle Cluster remained with the Crusader Wolves and there were sufficient elite warriors to prevent a Trial of Absorption by another Clan.  As part of their security procedures, no Clan WarShip had the entire Exodus Route stored on their computers.  This is mentioned several times.

One:  "Ulric revealed his own scheme to use the Trial as a means of crippling the Crusaders' power, while ensuring the long-term survival of the Wardens whom he considered the best and truest members of the Wolf Clan." Falcon and the Wolf

True, Ulric didn't send every Warden.  He did, however, send the 'bulk', as well as an entire third of Clan Wolf's equipment with Phelan. 

It was not a single ship that Ulric sent either.  Again, his recording specifically states that he has intentionally taken the necessary steps to ensure that Phelan and his Wolves will be unable to ever return to the Homeworlds.

Not quite all planned out.  He planned out what he could in the little time he had available.  After all while he was able to provide them with production specs for Omnis and some lower caste civilians, he was unable to provide them with the equipment to produce them.  Phelan's Wolves had to take it from the Ghost Bears.

That was due to constraints.  Clan Wolf's relocation to Arc Royal was supposed to be a secret until it was too late to be prevented.  Also recall that the Crusader survivors were supposed to head to Arc Royal after Wotan.

It's been noted in previous threads that Ulric could have easily avoided the charges and the Refusal War but still have undermined the invasion simply by allowing the Invading Clans to strike at one another and allowing HW Clans to trial for a limited number of IS worlds.

It would have blooded the Crusader Clans, undermined their preparations for a renewed Invasion, helped secure his own position by making the HW Clans happy as well as causing further conflict between HW and Invading Clans and possibly even led to the ouster of a Crusader Clan from the invasion force (probably only to replaced by another Crusader Clan but still-it would have further undermined the Crusaders).

That would have left the Crusader Wolves alive however, and not prevented Clan Wolf becoming a Crusader Clan.

From Falcon and the Wolf:

At best, the Jade Falcons could only win a pyrrhic victory in the Refusal War; the swath of destruction cut through their ranks by Clan Wolf would cost them all hope of spearheading a renewed invasion of the Inner Sphere. The other Crusader Clans, beset by rebellions on occupied worlds and lacking the Falcons' military acumen, could do the Inner Sphere less harm. By virtually destroying the Jade Falcons and the Wolf Clan Crusaders, Ulric hoped to tear out the heart of the Crusader faction and protect the Inner Sphere, as he believed the Clans had been created to do.

For all we know, the same Clans that viewed him as a traitor could have viewed him as a savior only one or two decades later by preventing them from becoming tainted by the Inner Sphere.

I doubt it.  While it can be argued that he saved the Clans, the Clans tend to view things as pretty black and white.  Ulric lost the Trial of Refusal- therefor he was guilty.

I do think it's rather ironic though that while he was initially falsely convicted of intentionally getting young Clan warriors killed,
Ulric did that just that during the Refusal War.

In a sense, at the end, he was guilty of the very thing he was convicted of.  Perhaps the Trial of Refusal having the final say does works afterall ;)

BTW:

BTW Phelan's Wolves were abjured AFTER the Battle of Morges not before.

Chistu Abjured Phelan and his Wolves just hours after Ulric was killed on Wotan on December 10th, 3057.

While the Falcons arrived in the Morges system on December 5th, 3057, Morges didn't actually begin until the Falcons dropped on December 13th, 3057.  In fact, the Falcons inform Phelan that both the 'Black Widow' and the 'Grey Wolf' (Ulric) are dead before the battle began.

[Trajan Helmer]

If we're assuming that Ulric is the same guy, except for being a warden it is. A crusader Khan would still won't to hinder his competing clans while enforcing his own clan with an old time ally...
Being crusaders doesn't make clanners into singleminded force primarily interested with the glory of the clans over his own clan. The clan that would reach Terra first would become the ilclan, and it's khan an undisputed ilkahn. For any ilkhan to allow any other clan than his own to achieve that, is negligent, not altruistic.

The position of IlKhan was supposed to be one of neutrality when it came to handling the affairs of the Clans as a whole. By all accounts I am aware of, such neutrality was followed by first four IlKhans. Khatib (I finally remembered his proper name) deviated from that and set a bad precedent that all following IlKhans proceeded with in some way or another.

What?  :o Ulric didn't murder his predecessor.

I didn't say he did, either.

Showers committed assisted suicide by stupidity with the help of Tyra Miraborg... Ulric wasn't extraordinarily manipulative and bias compared to other clan ilkhans going back Nick.

However, Ulric's actions throughout his reign are a great testament to his skill in manipulating events to his favor.

Calling fire support to save your ass during a duel, is not "creative"... When the clan widowmaker pulled the same stunt, it led to a trial of annihilation. Only the crusader corruption prevent that fate from befalling the dezgra falcons.

Considering Vahn launched the attack at the beginning of the Circle of Equals, his butt wasn't being saved. Treacherously, Vahn had everything planned down to the tacks, save for one Vladimir of the Wards. Since Vlad and the higher echelons of the Falcons agreed to keep the info of Vahn's treachery silent, it greatly reduced the odds of the Falcons being called to an absorption. Even then, it doesn't guarantee the Falcons would have been absorbed, let alone the Jade Wolves new Wolf Clan. Ugly doings seem to be part & parcel at the end of ugly conflicts. Also, the Widowmakers were considered Absorbed, not Annihilated.

"We were totally honorable until the part where we weren't" isn't much of an argument.

I recognize that the Falcons (at least according to scenario rules...which I should not conflate with the breakdown in zell on both parties in most of the fights), were as honorable as the Wolves in the Refusal War up to Vandervahn's treachery. But we must realize together that it was his wrongdoing, not the Falcons-at-large that was "extra-dezgra." 

"Baseless it may be in our eyes"? Than what is this thread? I thought we were discussing how we as outside posters feel about UK, not how the bias clans do...

Since BattleTech is a fictional universe, we're all outsiders. We outsiders see through the charge of genocide against Ulric but in-universe, the Clans took it very seriously. Do we have a voting record of who voted for/against Ulric? Unless we do, it can't be ascertained if Ulric's conviction was purely on political lines. 

I disagree. Throughout his term as khan and ilkhan, Ulric was held to a different standard than the crusaders who used their majority in the council to abuse the wardens, and the wolves and Ulric in particular.

I accept the disagreement.  As the Wolf (Il)Khan, Ulric experienced everything a Khan experiences normally (internal division/political agendas), up to the Wolf Supremacist's charges against him. As far as being used and abused by the Crusader's power bloc, I suspect it wasn't any different than when the Wardens held sway which was all the way to Operation: REVIVAL. The Crusaders pushed the Wardens down whenever they could, just as the Wardens did to them when they were the political minority.

It's imperative to compare him to his contemporary counterparts in his clan and others, since this are the only true standards. You can't declare him treasonous, if he wasn't more "treasonous" than his peers who were immune from prosecution by virtue of belonging to the now defunct crusaders.

I see your point on comparisons.  However, I can call Ulric a guilty traitor because the Grand Council found him so and the defender of the decision, the Jade Falcons successfully defeated Ulric's Trial of Refusal, proving he was guilty of genocide. Unfortunately for his iron-strong supporters, this is canon. I may be a huge Falcon fan but I can see canon for what it is, even when it's ugly (Chistu's actions, Vlad and Elias's collusion, etc) to me.

In the dark age, where the majority of the clans can be considered wardens (or at least not "crusaders"), I doubt many clanners outside the wolf clans spend much time contemplating Ulric in any way. CWX probably idolize him, and CW at the very least appreciate that everything they have achieved is thanks to him.

Since we know nothing political of the Homeworlders beyond the Bastion and Aggressor factions, it seems there are no Crusaders or Wardens there. In the IS, it seems only the Wolves and Falcons continue to espouse the Crusader philosophy.  The New Clan Wolf owes EVERYTHING to Vladimir Ward. If it were not for him (and Marthe Pryde's declining to refuse Crichell's collaborative deal with Vlad per Malicious Intent) Clan Jade Falcon would own all of Clan Wolf's assets and be the greatest Clan, virtually immune from major outside predations including absorption. How changed would canon be then?

[solmanian]

I'll say this about excepting trial results as indication of guilt:
Lets say we read in a book that a fox warrior stole something from a jaguar.
The infuriated jaguar is convinced the thief is another warrior from the bears.
The jaguar declare a trial of grievance against the bear, and defeats him.
Does that mean that from our perspective the bear was indeed the thief? Or the Fox?

Just because a trial (whether clan or an IS one) is declared and successfully carried out against someone, whom we know is innocent, doesn't actually make him guilty...

We know all the accusations against Ulric in the various trials were politically motivated and not by "justice".

[E. Icaza]

Aff.  Ulric was the greatest traitor that the Clans have ever known.  His efforts to derail the Clans manifest destiny, out of his misguided belief in the Warden philosophy, lead directly to many of the later disasters that befall the Way of the Clans in later periods.     

It seems that the Kerensky bloodline produced more than a few traitors during REVIVAL and should have been long since Reaved or even wholly expunged.  While we can revere the Founder's wisdom, it is far too obvious that his descendents have fallen far from that wisdom in the intervening centuries.

[BirdofPrey]

What manifest desity?  Only the Crusaders wanted to conquer, and not ever clan is Crusaders.
Ulric upheld the Views of his clan and the Warden way.


Considering the Warden clans have managed to get along pretty well while the crusaders run into obstacles at every turn, and most of those are self inflicted, the Crusader viewpoint is the one that is faulty.  The only Crusader clan to actually take an objective at Tukkayid was Clan Ghost Bear, and they aren't Crusader anymore.

[Captain of C-21]

Have to agree with Sid here.  By any reasonable metric, Ulric ultimately did not do his job as IlKhan andd tried to hamstring the Clans as much as possible rather than ensue the Invasion was a success.  He put his own individual beliefs before the good of the Clans.

Instead of looking at this from a Crusader/Warden perspective, you can always point out as well that without a doubt the Inner Sphere is probably very glad Ulric was IlKhan for what time he was.  If that does not make him a traitor, I'm not sure what would.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Is it really his fault no one took his advice?  The one clan that did, his Wolves, conquered worlds faster than anyone else and won at Tukayyid.  The Crusaders put him in office, then ignored him.  How does that make him a traitor?

[rebs]

I'm with you on that AR Warrior.

Ulric's Wolves followed Ulric's plan.  Ulric's Wolves did well in the invasion, and won their engagements on Tukayyid.  None of the other Clans can match that, most fall far short. 

Ulric Kerensky set the example, but none chose to follow that example, and paid for it with failure.  More than that, BoK makes it rather clear that Ulric communicated his ideas repeatedly and they were ignored for varying reasons.

The Crusader Clans take no accountability for their own negligence in this regard.  But the fact is that they failed, and the Wolves did not.  If they could not hold their own, then the Clan way is clear: They did not deserve to win and should not cast blame at the leader that they chose in their blinding arrogance.  Ulric is most certainly not a traitor.  He may not have helped the Crusaders, but again why do Crusader Clans need help to do their task?

[BirdofPrey]

Exactly, while his ultimate motives may have been somewhat questionable, he still did what he could to lead.  It is not his fault if the other clans refuse to follow.

Tukkayid was a clan trial or possession and if I remember correctly, the other clans were all for it, and he repeatedly tried to give them advice for how to succeed and was ignored, so the other clans wanted to use him as a scapegoat to cover for their own failings.  Might makes right, and during Operation Revival, that puts Wolves and the Kerenskies in the lead.

[solmanian]

Have to agree with Sid here.  By any reasonable metric, Ulric ultimately did not do his job as IlKhan andd tried to hamstring the Clans as much as possible rather than ensue the Invasion was a success.  He put his own individual beliefs before the good of the Clans.

Bold words from a fan of a CNC offshoot...

Instead of looking at this from a Crusader/Warden perspective, you can always point out as well that without a doubt the Inner Sphere is probably very glad Ulric was IlKhan for what time he was.  If that does not make him a traitor, I'm not sure what would.

That holds water only if you believe the clans purpose was to torment the IS, not to save it.

The crusaders were corrupting Kerensky vision of the role of the clans. The whole premise of crusaders for justifying the invasion, was that they were horrified at the notion of a second star league without them at the head. From a warden perspective, the thought of the IS reforming the SL, reinforce their belief that the IS is worth saving.

[E. Icaza]

The crusaders were corrupting Kerensky vision of the role of the clans. The whole premise of crusaders for justifying the invasion, was that they were horrified at the notion of a second star league without them at the head. From a warden perspective, the thought of the IS reforming the SL, reinforce their belief that the IS is worth saving.

Then shouldn't the inability of the Successor Houses to sustain a second Star League and its collapse be proof that the IS isn't worth saving?

What manifest desity?  Only the Crusaders wanted to conquer, and not ever clan is Crusaders.
Ulric upheld the Views of his clan and the Warden way.

Exactly.  The Warden cause was more important to Ulric than the Way of the Clans.  It was so important to him that he was willing to see at least two Clans destroyed in internecine fighting to protect an Inner Sphere so corrupt they couldn't sustain a Star League for more than a decade and that took actions that led to the rise of the Word of Blake.  Sounds like a total and complete failure of the Warden cause to me.

Of course, the Crusader cause isn't looking to glamorous either, but then how effective could they be when they had to drag the Wardens around with them?  All Wardens are traitors to the Way of the Clans.  The Clans weren't meant to protect or cooperate with the Inner Sphere.  They were meant to conquer and rule it.   

[Warpimp]

The Warden cause was more important to Ulric than the Way of the Clans.

This I think is the core of why I think Ulric was a traitor. He obviously doesn't believe in the Clan way of life and was actively trying to destroy that way of life (whether or not that is a good thing is beside the point). This, I think, is what makes him different than other scheming ilKhans.

[rebs]

It would be nice for the Crusaders if that statement was true, but it is not true.

Ulric did nothing to harm the Crusader Clans or the Clan way of life.  He preserved the Warden Wolf Clan, and as he himself insisted, he saved the Clans from their selves. 

What if getting to Terra in the original Invasion time-frame meant that certain Clans would be weak and stretched thin, allowing the Federated Suns portion of the FC's might to be focused on the head of a Clan as it approached their border.  Or if the FWL or Cappies could have done the same thing.  At that time, in the pre-Jihad and pre-DA FASA universe, that could have been a possibility.  They could reach their goal and a fresh faction could finish off at least one if not more of the "victors" in that way.  That scenario could quite easily unfold.  It was what the FWL and Cappies were planning to do anyway if the Clan invasion reached striking distance of their borders, I would imagine.  What other plan would they have?  As indicated in BoK, they were quite self-interested at this time and waiting for such an eventuality until Focht came through for humanity.

I think Ulric was telling the truth about preserving the Clans.  This would not be the act of a traitor.  Once again, it is the act of a preserver.  The Clans still exist, among them are two Wolf Clans. 

Besides, this is all distraction from the fact that the Crusaders insisted upon a conflict with the IS that they proved incapable of carrying out successfully on the field of battle.  In some case, it was Hubris, like Elias Crichell saying they would be better served by sending mostly empty transports to the IS to cart away spoils of war.  Naivety likely played a powerful role as well, there are certain Clans that were famous for their naivety in the face of the Spheroids.  I'll not laugh since we should be respectful of Clans that are no longer with us. 

A lack of listening to what their IlKhan told them to do also plainly and clearly played a strong roll in this.  They elect a war leader, then they do not listen to war leader, then blame war leader when they lost.  If the Crusaders were serious, they should have eschewed politics and elected a Crusader Khan as IlKhan, one that would drive them to meet their destinies sooner.   ^-^

[Arkansas Warrior]

This I think is the core of why I think Ulric was a traitor. He obviously doesn't believe in the Clan way of life and was actively trying to destroy that way of life (whether or not that is a good thing is beside the point). This, I think, is what makes him different than other scheming ilKhans.

What are you talking about?  Ulric doesn't seem to have any problem with the caste system and warrior dominance thereof, for example, or the eugenics program, or the might-makes-right "justice" system.  What did he do to destroy the Clan way of life?  If anything, he extended the clan way of life to a greater number of people than had ever experienced it before.

[Arvanna]

You have to forgive them but too many of the Crusader fans equate the Crusader Philosophy with the Clan way of life.  ::)

[E. Icaza]

You have to forgive them but too many of the Crusader fans equate the Crusader Philosophy with the Clan way of life.  ::)

Neg.  Too many Clan fans fail to recognize that the Crusader philosophy is the Clan way of life.  The moment the Clans switched from "conquer and rule" to "appease and assimilate" they were doomed.

[Arkansas Warrior]

You seem to forget that the Wolves did more conquering and ruling than any Crusader clan.  Besides, the Warden philosophy has more to do with protecting the IS than joining up with them.  Most, if not all, Wardens were perfectly happy sitting back in clan space doing clan things like the good clanners they were.  It's the Crusaders who insisted on directly interacting with the spheroids (and thereby allowing the spheroids to run off on them).

[glitterboy2098]

i see a lot of people claiming he sabotaged the invasion.. how?
he brought in more clans.. because the current ones were having trouble holding what they'd taken with their current forces.
he encouraged the clans to work with the worlds they conquered instead of terrorizing them.. because these were the people they were going to be ruling, and friendly populations are peaceful populations.
he enciouraged them to make use of accurate intel on the IS to better prepare to fight.
he arranged a one fight takes all deal to get terra for the clans as a whole to avoid wasteful fighting.
he encouraged the clans to bring everything they had and stockpile plenty of supplies for said fight.
he warned the other clans that comstar was not a pushover.

he did tons to try and make the invasion work. yet he's being called a traitor because the rest of the clans decided to be idiots and ignore his advice?

[BirdofPrey]

That first point is dubious since he paired clans hostile to each other in each invasion corridor.   Two clans fighting each other would undermine conquest a bit.

The rest of the points are sound.

[A. Lurker]

Neg.  Too many Clan fans fail to recognize that the Crusader philosophy is the Clan way of life.  The moment the Clans switched from "conquer and rule" to "appease and assimilate" they were doomed.

So in all those decades before Operation Revival...whom did the Clans, as a collective entity, "conquer and rule"? I mean, it's not exactly as though the Clans' sphere of influence exactly expanded by leaps and bounds in all that time, so if that was really the Way of the Clans, it doesn't seem to have worked all that well even before the invasion...

[glitterboy2098]

That first point is dubious since he paired clans hostile to each other in each invasion corridor.   Two clans fighting each other would undermine conquest a bit.

actually, the rivalry would just drive both to do better in the conquest. as long as there is still unclaimed territory the grouping would have just been a source of motivation. once conquest was over the combo would cause problems, that that would be expected anyway.. whether the extra clans came in or not. (since those clans left behind would sart vying for territory either in the homeworlds.. or in the areas of the IS not claimed by initial invading clans. the end result, had the clans conquered everything as they'd wanted, would have been homeworlds politics writ large anyway..)

you'll notice that there were very few cases of the two clans sharing an OZ actually fighting each other during the invasion? we even see the nova cats and jaguars working jointly to invade Luthien. the cats did do a few trials of possession for worlds they needed for strategic purposes, but trials of that sort were pretty typical of the clans.

[Arvanna]

So in all those decades before Operation Revival...whom did the Clans, as a collective entity, "conquer and rule"? I mean, it's not exactly as though the Clans' sphere of influence exactly expanded by leaps and bounds in all that time, so if that was really the Way of the Clans, it doesn't seem to have worked all that well even before the invasion...
[/quote

Good point and if the Truce amounted to 3 generations of warriors not being allowed to fight the IS being genocide then what about the generations before Revival?

[solmanian]

The charges of genocide weren't based on any actual acts. Even the most fanatic crusader on this thread would admit they were made up.

The heart of this discussion in my opinion, is that from the crusader-fans POV, the fact that that the crusaders lied, cheat, and manipulated the wolf is perfectly acceptable (even the trial of refusal against the invasion pitted the wolf forces to be outnumbered 4 to 1); but when Ulric returns the favor, it's TREASON!

[Sid]

The charges of genocide weren't based on any actual acts. Even the most fanatic crusader on this thread would admit they were made up.

What do you think of Vlad's attempt at grinding Omega Galaxy down in the Peripheries? 

Was that kosher?

The heart of this discussion in my opinion, is that from the crusader-fans POV, the fact that that the crusaders lied, cheat, and manipulated the wolf is perfectly acceptable (even the trial of refusal against the invasion pitted the wolf forces to be outnumbered 4 to 1); but when Ulric returns the favor, it's TREASON!

The Refusal War was Ulric.  I've pointed out and even posted quoted citations from source material that says this.  Ulric, quite literally, killed Clan Wolf.

The heart of the discussion is that because the 'Warden' philosophy is considered the 'good' one by many fans, any Warden character is exonerated.

Vlad killed far, far, less Wolves than Ulric ever did and it wasn't even intentional and yet there's far more of an outcry against Vlad than Ulric will ever get.

Why?  Because Vlad is 'evil' because he's a 'Crusader'

[solmanian]

What do you think of Vlad's attempt at grinding Omega Galaxy down in the Peripheries? 

Was that kosher?

Hmm? When did Vald's Khanship became part of the discussion?
In the hopes that you aren't simply using Vald as a strawman, I'll respond: yeah, it's "Kosher".
It wasn't very nice, but no treason. They were his troops to command, just like the crusaders were UK&BW's troops (the crusaders attempt to dislodge them by trials of positions were quite unsuccessful). If the wardens weren't a punching bag in his clan, he might even had to face ToPs and ToGs; instead, his poor treatment of them led to losing what remained of that galaxy. But he got rid of the wardens (which was his aim all along), and they found a home in the warden CHH; so a win-win result I guess...

The Refusal War was Ulric.  I've pointed out and even posted quoted citations from source material that says this.  Ulric, quite literally, killed Clan Wolf.

Than they must absorbed parts of clan Hydra, because when I look at the faction list, it seems two more clan Wolf, have taken it's place. HAIL HYDRAWOLF!  >:D

The heart of the discussion is that because the 'Warden' philosophy is considered the 'good' one by many fans, any Warden character is exonerated.

No, the problem is when something like this comes up:

All Wardens are traitors to the Way of the Clans.

Where every warden is guilty of treason, automatically.

Vlad killed far, far, less Wolves than Ulric ever did and it wasn't even intentional and yet there's far more of an outcry against Vlad than Ulric will ever get.

Again, with Vlad... When did Vlad got into this?
A. It was very much intentional. Unlike the falcons (and other clans, occasionally) custom of "blooding" inexperienced units, Vlad intention was for the wardens to be destroyed, or at the very least disgraced; instead they joined with CHH...

B. Atleast Ulric had to balls to lead the crusaders into battle; more than I can say for Vlad.

Why?  Because Vlad is 'evil' because he's a 'Crusader'

Whn did someone here called Vlad "evil"?
I'd use words like "bitter" or "disillusioned".

[FedSunsBorn]

The only single thing that I might see as a mistake on Ulric's part would be the 15 year long truce. For the Clans, that is way, way too long since their generations are so much shorter than what's typical in the Inner Sphere. I think 10 years would have been better or possibly even just 5 years....of course, the Inner Sphere would have hated it but that still would have given everyone a bit of a breather. Everything else...I would say he did fine in terms of how the Clans operate.

[Arkansas Warrior]

15 years is a hell of a lot shorter than the amount of time the Clans waited before Op Revival, or even between the Dragoon Compromise and Revival.  Also, if thy'd just listened to Ulric, they'd have beaten the ComGuard (as the Wolves did) and gained Terra in the bargain.

[rebs]

Indeed.  Fifteen years is a small slice of time that has passed in-universe since Tukayyid.  Ulric Kerensky's bargain impeded things a little bit, but mostly because everyone else involved proved incapable of producing positve results in battle with the ComGuards.  It was by no means forever. 

[misterpants]

Given the Trial System as the law of the land, my read was Ulric wasn't a traitor until he lost the Refusal war.

[rebs]

But after victory the Jade Falcons Khans claimed that it was actually a trial of Ansorption.  So technically they did not prove anything about Ulric, they gave that up by playing fast and loose with the focus of the trial after the fact.  And then Vlad overturned that as well.  Crichell and Chistu did nothing that an unbloodnamed warrior could not undo.  And Ulric did not betray the Clans.