Author Topic: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?  (Read 7362 times)

Metallgewitter

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How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« on: 02 September 2023, 16:04:36 »
This topic is derived from my original question from the Freeborn warrior caste threat. In essence what do you guys think how the Clans will shape Terra and their Star League in terms of goverment and structure? will they implement a strict caste system? Or perhaps go the Bears route by relaxing a lot of their rather strict caste structures? Alaric seems to be on the "Pure clan over all seyla" route but will that work? He might bring the Foxes in to handle the economical side of things but in terms of military he will have to make compromises. A LOT. After all stand today there won't be new Wolf warriors for a very long time and with the Clan League now battling the Capellans every lost warrior will bite.
From what we have seen from the past every invader Clan somehow incoporated their captured Is population (the Bears being the most forthcoming though they also treated diddidents rather harshly) but now we are talking about the center of the IS: the oldest, most populated worlds and at least some have probably still hold a gruding hate for the Clans. Simply putting a clanner in charge and cutting of anyone with experience would be a disaster just waiting to happen.

Minemech

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #1 on: 02 September 2023, 16:18:21 »
 With the possible exception of technological prowess (Something Terra could absorb in the blink of an eye), the Clans really have nothing competent to offer Terra in terms of governance. I guess you could argue that Terra is resource poor like the Clan homeworlds, but it vastly outpopulates those worlds and has stable trade routes with profitable worlds. Furthermore, allowing a Clan to take a world with particular types of figures as with Terra uniquely has is going to be problematic.

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #2 on: 02 September 2023, 16:32:37 »
They lack the power to actually impose a caste system, I think it is more likely that they make changes to the caste system.
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Alan Grant

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #3 on: 02 September 2023, 16:37:31 »
With enemies everywhere and battles to fight sooner rather than later, I think Alaric will be forced to make a lot of practical decisions to rebuild Clan Wolf's strength. Not just from what's happened already, but also from battles to come.

I hate to compare it to when the Blakists ruled Terra, but the analogy fits. When the Blakists were in control they fortified Terra, and they got as many factories and shipyards going as possible to churn out as much as possible. For a long time we didn't know where all that output was going until the Jihad. Arguably they were in an even better position to do this than Alaric was. They had a lot of support of every stripe coming from the FWL. They also had years of relative peace before the Jihad started.

By comparison, Alaric's forces have given up a lot of infrastructure in order to set their sights on Terra. Now that they have it, they are surrounded by potential enemies mulling the next move. So Alaric may not have a lot of time to really settle in. He needs to be building, building and yet more building.

All other considerations are secondary. So I think he'll be forced to compromise and compromise and compromise with the people of Terra. He can't tolerate too much resistance, or work stoppages or anything like that. He'll either be forced to put any resisting and uncooperative Terrans down hard and violently (which might happen, who knows), or he'll be forced to bend more to Terra's way of doing things to get what he wants out of that world (and offer something up in exchange, like certain freedoms to the Terrans).

The big X factor is just how cooperative, or uncooperative, the people of Terra will be to their new rulers.

Fire Scorpion IIC

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #4 on: 02 September 2023, 17:36:44 »

Can't really speculate how they will do things in immediate future because combat will be the order of the day for couple of years but as for long term arrangements they don't really need to think too hard because they already have several possible templates to pick from all of which have been up and running for quite a while now with their pros and cons demonstrated in practice

Ironically the most efficient (but not necessarily most palatable one for trueborn purists) happens to be coming from a hardcore Warden Clan which couldn't care less about the concept of ilClan and sees it as just another nation in the geopolitical landscape (and still doesn't even know how invasion of Terra played out)

Long story short the menu is there, we just need to see which item they decide to go with

There's also the possibility of them doing something completely new but I honestly can't imagine what that could be, seems like all the possibilities have already been tried


idea weenie

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #5 on: 02 September 2023, 18:32:04 »
So Alaric won't be having his scientists develop a retrovirus to turn the worst troublemakers into the Battletech version of Genejacks?  Person comes in that has caused lots of trouble over several years but is still healthy -> one injection later + time for the virus to propagate -> +1 happy and productive Laborer caste member.

SeeM

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #6 on: 03 September 2023, 01:45:56 »
Core systems have one benefit of wall being bricked. They all have a second chance to meet with the Inner Sphere and I think the populace can appreciate and profit from that. When it fails completely, Wolves may be the only ones keeping houses from wrecking them again, as they usually did in the past.

It is not the case if locals are happy with the Clan. Maybe it will be just better that Republic and the wall.
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Geg

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #7 on: 03 September 2023, 09:22:51 »
Ray said in one of the con interviews over the Summer that population of Terra would "get a say" in how things evolved.  Then we got those 3250 blurbs that mention the office of Exarch, and finally we have the Cappies pushing in with their own version of a caste system in tow.   My guess is that Clan Wolf comes to an accommodation with the population of Terra, by being the lessor of two (technically three) evils.

My guess, is that we see the the ilClan state in the heart of the IS look a lot like the Republic, except with Clan Wolf taking the place of the Knights and Paladins.  The non-Wolves on Terra maybe the rest of the former republic will get rights, and represented in the Clan by an Exarch.  Sort of like what the Bears did, but with the Clan more clearly on top.

Metallgewitter

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #8 on: 03 September 2023, 10:15:21 »
Are the 3250 blurbs even acknowledged? Or were they more part of the 2old storyline2 where the Republic managed to crawl it's way back from the abyss? The current problem I see for the wolves is manpower: they took a beating taking Tera and from what I read so far they don't have any reserves left. Those that are stuck in the empire are the dregs, wounded and untrained. And we all know that the Dragoons have begun collecting those as a form of revenge.

I thin it can't be compared to the blakist as the blakists had also build a small protectorate before the jihad even kicked of. They secured their immediate souroundings and began to rebuild the old Hegemony infrastructure. The wolves now have, what? Terra and the sol system. that's basically it. And if the diorama is any thing worth they also lost their corridor to their empire. The Terrn population is probably shocked for the moment but when they see no change or even more rationing and forced labor to keep factories running at the breaking point I forsee more trouble up ahead. especially on a planet where remnants from the Republic still linger.

I assume of course that in the end we get a new Star League or atthe very least something of a clan Hegemony in the core of the IS. And from there it will be interesting to see how the clans will shape their society? Forcefeeding them the caste system will imho not work as this is not the civil war stricken Pentagon. This is the core of the IS with a culture way too deep ingrained in the mindset of it's people. alaric or whoever will rule has to make some serious concessions. This will be the most interesting part

Fire Scorpion IIC

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #9 on: 03 September 2023, 10:49:59 »
Core systems have one benefit of wall being bricked. They all have a second chance to meet with the Inner Sphere and I think the populace can appreciate and profit from that. When it fails completely, Wolves may be the only ones keeping houses from wrecking them again, as they usually did in the past.

It is not the case if locals are happy with the Clan. Maybe it will be just better that Republic and the wall.

Good observation

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Wolves will still need some creative thinkers afterwards to implement the whole state setup long term

I'm curious to see if they will look for them among their own ranks or opt to import them from the outside


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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #10 on: 03 September 2023, 14:57:45 »
Wouldn't one solution to be extending the oligarchy/meritocracy of The Clans to powerful leaders of Terra? Recognizing labnames, creating "tradenames", or declaring new bloodnames would give Terrans who can maintain the old order a stake in the new one. After all, it's no big deal to create new names or elevate non-warriors if you're the Great Founder (Alaric Ward).
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BrianDavion

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #11 on: 03 September 2023, 16:24:34 »
Hijacking existing power structures certainly seems more likely, and creating new bloodnames to bind powerful families in the ROTS to the clans is certainly a good idea.
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Church14

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #12 on: 03 September 2023, 16:26:16 »
Remember that the Senate was the compromise Stone had to make to get the RotS government functioning without consistent active sabotage. At the time, Stone’s legend and persona were just short of Jesus and he couldn’t hammer out his uncompromising vision.

Alaric and the Wolves have all the same challenges and none of the benefits. Serious compromise will have to be made if wolves rule Terra long term and fundamentally wolves are incapable of that. At least the current leadership is incapable. I think the early years of clan rule on Terra are going to be awful for both sides, and only once some very painful lessons are learned will an actual functioning government form that looks a lot less Clan than inner sphere.

But I think the first few years will be Alaric trying the caste system and not understanding why this time it doesn’t work. 

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #13 on: 03 September 2023, 17:50:43 »
Wolves most likely will have a dual system. One for Clan Wolf that will oversee the civvie population and the Civvie population itself which will slowly over the years be integrated into Clan Wolf proper. Testing the young and moving them into castes done slowly will cause fewer issues. In many ways I see the Wolves adopting much the Ghost Bears have done.
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Geg

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #14 on: 03 September 2023, 19:10:25 »
Are the 3250 blurbs even acknowledged?

Ray defended them on the Tamar Rising launch thread in the main forum.

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #15 on: 03 September 2023, 19:34:01 »
Ray defended them on the Tamar Rising launch thread in the main forum.

So far the only written history the developers have declared non-Canon is the epilogues for the novel 'Surrender your Dreams'
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Church14

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #16 on: 03 September 2023, 22:46:03 »
Wolves most likely will have a dual system. One for Clan Wolf that will oversee the civvie population and the Civvie population itself which will slowly over the years be integrated into Clan Wolf proper. Testing the young and moving them into castes done slowly will cause fewer issues. In many ways I see the Wolves adopting much the Ghost Bears have done.
Except we’ve never seen wolves do anything like it. AFAIK they ran roughshod over every IS population. They made some adjustments getting to the Empire to make occupation with such a small force more practical, but EA shows locals still hated them.

We also have AQoS, where Alaric is confused as heck why Bears would rule that way. As in seems genuinely unable to wrap his head around why a clan would listen to civilians. This is not a man who is looking for or understands amiable relations with near peer civilian leaders.

To be clear, I believe Clan Wolf could eventually adapt. Alaric isn’t capable of it.
« Last Edit: 03 September 2023, 22:48:37 by Church14 »

rebs

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #17 on: 03 September 2023, 23:16:44 »
Yet Alaric is not a traditional Clanner.

Just as Ulric Kerensky predicted, the closer to Terra the Clans approached, the more they changed. 

Fast forward a century later, and we are in uncharted territory. 

I'm sure Alaric has had plans, then dropped them and made new ones.  When faced with the actual situation on the ground, he'll have to do things that he either didn't think of or didn't want to do originally.  He will have to adapt if he wants this to work.
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Geg

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #18 on: 03 September 2023, 23:23:58 »
Alaric also wasn't Khan in the old OZ or when the Empire was first being established.   Even if he was, having integrated local populations into Clan Wolf recently, he probably learned how to do it more effectively the second time around.

Church14

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #19 on: 04 September 2023, 00:34:39 »
Yet Alaric is not a traditional Clanner.

I’m not being snarky when I say this, but how is he not? He comes off as the clanniest of clan. As far as I can tell, his only noteworthy distinctions from the average Crusader mech jock are he understands logistics matter and understands zellbringen is counterproductive to real warfare.

Oh he learned politics from KSD? That has manifested in a massive ego and that he’ll murder people outside of a circle of equals. It sure didn’t manifest in him being able to get the citizens of the Empire to like him or the wolves. EA has the citizens generally wanting to shake off the wolves immediately, but there’s just enough wolves left, barely, to stop that.

Everything we see says he believes clanner culture is superior and hints that he wants to inflict it on Terra. We see he fundamentally doesn’t understand why a clan wouldn’t rule like a traditional clan. Every sign hints that he’s gonna absolutely poss off Terran citizens immediately

Metallgewitter

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #20 on: 04 September 2023, 02:03:02 »
Also a side note: when the Crusader Wolves held their old OZ they basically only controlled the cities and left the country side to fend for themselves. That worked there because most planets weren't that populated (Tamar and Rasalhague being an exception due to being capital worlds and Rasalhague, well went to the Bears later) Now try that on Terra. Terra has several mega cities containing millions of people thanks to centuries of "renaturalizing Terra" so the vast majority of Terrans live in mega cities. There will have to be adjustments (at least a few years down the road I think right now there is something of a "What do we do now?" phase which gives the remaining Wolves some breathing room trying to figure out how to go forward.) 

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #21 on: 04 September 2023, 08:15:32 »
Then we got those 3250 blurbs that mention the office of Exarch, and finally we have the Cappies pushing in with their own version of a caste system in tow.   My guess is that Clan Wolf comes to an accommodation with the population of Terra, by being the lessor of two (technically three) evils.

3250 Blurb ?

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #22 on: 04 September 2023, 11:26:39 »
3250 Blurb ?
TRO: Dark Ages, TRO: Jihad, and TRO: Succession Wars all have forewords written in the year 3250, which imply the existence of a third Star League with strong Clan elements which persists 100 years after Alaric's conquest of Terra.

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/3250
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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #23 on: 04 September 2023, 11:35:31 »
TRO: Dark Ages, TRO: Jihad, and TRO: Succession Wars all have forewords written in the year 3250, which imply the existence of a third Star League with strong Clan elements which persists 100 years after Alaric's conquest of Terra.

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/3250

Thanks for that, very interesting indeed

Church14

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #24 on: 04 September 2023, 12:18:20 »
Worth noting that the blurbs are largely irrelevant and are imtentionally missing key details. Like which clan is the ilclan. I think it doesn’t even confirm that Alaric’s so called league is the one in the blurbs.

Basically, pay them no need. It’ll be so long between now and when the lore gets there that the odds of retcons are pretty high.

rebs

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #25 on: 04 September 2023, 15:05:19 »
But the odds of Alaric Ward going about the business of establishing the third SL and running it like a traditional clanner are slim to none.

We will never get there if he does not surprise us all and adapt.
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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #26 on: 04 September 2023, 15:24:27 »
We will never get there if he does not surprise us all and adapt.

Won't be a surprise for me. That's how he was characterized before BLP got his hands on him. I'm looking forward to a much-needed course correction.
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rebs

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #27 on: 04 September 2023, 15:41:11 »
Won't be a surprise for me. That's how he was characterized before BLP got his hands on him. I'm looking forward to a much-needed course correction.

Then we are both preparing for the unexpected. 

I must say... After we were stuck in the DA "tracks" for so dang long, that's a refreshing prospect.
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Church14

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #28 on: 04 September 2023, 15:42:00 »
But the odds of Alaric Ward going about the business of establishing the third SL and running it like a traditional clanner are slim to none.

We will never get there if he does not surprise us all and adapt.

Or someone more capable of leading instead of just someone capable of waging war ends up in charge.

Metallgewitter

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #29 on: 04 September 2023, 15:51:13 »
Or someone more capable of leading instead of just someone capable of waging war ends up in charge.
Well there is Tara Jadefalcon though how much influence she can exert is another question

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #30 on: 04 September 2023, 15:58:30 »
Well there is Tara Jadefalcon though how much influence she can exert is another question

Tara should've just killed Alaric and damn the consequences. The Highlanders would've gladly sold themselves to keep that vomit-inducing plot development from happening.
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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #31 on: 04 September 2023, 16:19:50 »
We will never get there if he does not surprise us all and adapt.
Or that other thing. Y'know: die.
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Metallgewitter

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #32 on: 05 September 2023, 06:23:06 »
Tara should've just killed Alaric and damn the consequences. The Highlanders would've gladly sold themselves to keep that vomit-inducing plot development from happening.

Goes on the list who Tara should have killed. Heck she blasted Malvina with a headshot on Skye all those years ago and Malvina survived. Just how many headshots can a Mechpilot survive? Even Victor and Phelan only got one each, Malvina survived what 3 or 4? Maybe even more

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #33 on: 05 September 2023, 07:12:16 »
Someone else mentioned it but I can't see it going any other way

Clan stuff is ruled by the ilClan, Terra stuff dealt with by Terra

Anything that benefits the ilClans military will be Wolf controlled the rest I think will be left like nothing has changed

If there's any uprising it'll dealt with harshly, Alaric proved during the invasion he wouldn't put up with an insurgency (I believe he raised a town for such an act). Take that apply it to the system it'll be martial law in ilClan areas the rest will be Terra

Beyond Terra will be more interesting I think the only way the ilClan flourishes is if it reunites with the Empire. Alaric has proven he's willing to bend and break rules to keep his enemies off balance so I wouldn't even put it past him to sneak supplied to the Federated Suns or Free Worlds League to cause problems for the Capellans just like he eliminated the thread of the Rasalhague Dominion by causing Internal strife
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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #34 on: 05 September 2023, 11:17:57 »
just like he eliminated the thread of the Rasalhague Dominion by causing Internal strife

We don't know that Alaric even intended for what happened in the Dominion to happen.
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Metallgewitter

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #35 on: 05 September 2023, 15:31:09 »
If there's any uprising it'll dealt with harshly, Alaric proved during the invasion he wouldn't put up with an insurgency (I believe he raised a town for such an act). Take that apply it to the system it'll be martial law in ilClan areas the rest will be Terra

That begs the question how often can he use this tactic before it gets overused? At one point people snap. Or like the original Star League resistance that it gets celebrated as "martyrs for the cause". Nothing makes a bad PR then a burning city with dead children in the news reports or underground press. And ebven his warriors might take offense getting labeled as war criminals. The Jaguars can tell him a thing or two about going too far. Plus what if it happens in the metropolis of Terra? Will he burn down a city that houses several millions to make an example? Then good luck keeping the neighbouring factory running at full speed

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #36 on: 05 September 2023, 17:23:31 »
Quote from: Dragon Cat link=topic=82493.msg1959745#msg1959745 =1693915936
Beyond Terra will be more interesting I think the only way the ilClan flourishes is if it reunites with the Empire.

I’m not sure the Empire will welcome him even if it’s still standing when he tries. That said, we know Terra and the surrounding systems aren’t enough. He needs Allies and I think/hope it’ll come from other clans once Wolves get humbled.

Quote from: Dragon Cat link=topic=82493.msg1959745#msg1959745 =1693915936
Alaric has proven he's willing to bend and break rules to keep his enemies off balance so I wouldn't even put it past him to sneak supplied to the Federated Suns or Free Worlds League to cause problems for the Capellans
I know what you meant, but neither of these help Alaric. FedSuns would use them on the Ravens and FWL would use them on the Empire.


Quote from: Dragon Cat link=topic=82493.msg1959745#msg1959745 =1693915936
just like he eliminated the thread of the Rasalhague Dominion by causing Internal strife

Read the relevant scenes. I’m firmly convinced Alaric had zero idea that was going to happen. His demand - a laughably crazy one if he actually understood RasDom culture - cost him a damn strong ally.

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #37 on: 05 September 2023, 17:29:01 »

I know what you meant, but neither of these help Alaric. FedSuns would use them on the Ravens and FWL would use them on the Empire.


Depends on who in the Suns Alaric supplies. There should be a lot of people in the Capellan March who want revenge, and Chesterton in particular is a long time world under occupation.
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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #38 on: 05 September 2023, 17:52:54 »
We don't know that Alaric even intended for what happened in the Dominion to happen.

It was certainly the impression I took from the scene he saw them as a powerful ally or thorn he gave them a choice to join his star league, they voted then he moved the goal posts by saying it had to be a decision the entire Dominion agreed on.

Clan rule 101 rule from the top, the Dominion voted he didn't like that he wanted one voice from the Dominion not a majority vote that might change. Best way to eliminate that chance of change make them sort it out.

I took that whole sequence of events as Alaric seeing a potential threat and exploiting a weakness in the way a Clanner (or his mother would by Targeting the foundation of the Dominion their choice to vote)

That begs the question how often can he use this tactic before it gets overused? At one point people snap. Or like the original Star League resistance that it gets celebrated as "martyrs for the cause". Nothing makes a bad PR then a burning city with dead children in the news reports or underground press. And ebven his warriors might take offense getting labeled as war criminals. The Jaguars can tell him a thing or two about going too far. Plus what if it happens in the metropolis of Terra? Will he burn down a city that houses several millions to make an example? Then good luck keeping the neighbouring factory running at full speed

The thing is I don't think he'll have to the tactic was used during the invasion because the Wolves had to focus on conquest and show they'd be willing to. They were seen as the "good" Clan over the insane Falcons Alaric had to prove he was willing and capable of doing it.

Terra has had 5 owners the Camerons, ComStar, Word of Blake, Republic of the Sphere and now the Wolves each time its been the focal point of that factions desires they are in exactly the same position with the ilClan.

If anything I can see Terra fully supporting the idea that Clan Wolf want to make them the capital or a new Star League. From the short story in Sharpnel you could see life was going on after the invasion like the saying in Fallout "Terra never changes"
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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #39 on: 05 September 2023, 17:58:23 »
It was certainly the impression I took from the scene he saw them as a powerful ally or thorn he gave them a choice to join his star league, they voted then he moved the goal posts by saying it had to be a decision the entire Dominion agreed on.

Clan rule 101 rule from the top, the Dominion voted he didn't like that he wanted one voice from the Dominion not a majority vote that might change. Best way to eliminate that chance of change make them sort it out.

I took that whole sequence of events as Alaric seeing a potential threat and exploiting a weakness in the way a Clanner (or his mother would by Targeting the foundation of the Dominion their choice to vote)

I understand why someone would draw that conclusion, but there's simply nothing in print that says or even implies that this was Alaric's mindset during all of this. Church was right: read the scene. Alaric seemed genuinely baffled by the RasDom's way of doing things, but still went along with it. And there was no indication later that he rejected them to stir up internal dissent; simply a Typical Clanner demanding better results from people he thinks are beneath him.
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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #40 on: 05 September 2023, 18:03:23 »
I’m not sure the Empire will welcome him even if it’s still standing when he tries. That said, we know Terra and the surrounding systems aren’t enough. He needs Allies and I think/hope it’ll come from other clans once Wolves get humbled.

The Empire has a large swath of worlds I think it'll still be standing and if it isn't then the survivors retreat to Terra and Alaric wins by default.  That is if he wants them I guess the silence from Terra to the Wolves is weird. Maybe he sees the warriors like the Dragoons not worthy of his ilClan and he wants to build up all over again with his "Terran" Wolves the core like the old Royal forces of the first SLDF Alaric likes symbolism much like his mother

Depends on who in the Suns Alaric supplies. There should be a lot of people in the Capellan March who want revenge, and Chesterton in particular is a long time world under occupation.

How I see it as well he doesn't even have to get his own hands dirty he can use the Foxes who it appears are willing to serve the ilClan
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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #41 on: 05 September 2023, 18:07:40 »
I understand why someone would draw that conclusion, but there's simply nothing in print that says or even implies that this was Alaric's mindset during all of this. Church was right: read the scene. Alaric seemed genuinely baffled by the RasDom's way of doing things, but still went along with it. And there was no indication later that he rejected them to stir up internal dissent; simply a Typical Clanner demanding better results from people he thinks are beneath him.

I guess we'll find out exactly what he's thinking when the next book comes out
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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #42 on: 05 September 2023, 18:33:49 »
The Empire has a large swath of worlds I think it'll still be standing and if it isn't then the survivors retreat to Terra and Alaric wins by default.  That is if he wants them I guess the silence from Terra to the Wolves is weird. Maybe he sees the warriors like the Dragoons not worthy of his ilClan and he wants to build up all over again with his "Terran" Wolves the core like the old Royal forces of the first SLDF Alaric likes symbolism much like his mother

GenCon Diorama looks like Capellans already cut Alaric off before the dust settled on Terra. To be fair, this doesn’t mean Alaric can’t break the door open, but it has been shut on him at least once now.

Add in then that the FWL accidentally took 20% of the Empire and is now going to start trying.

Add in even one Lyran general bucking Trillian and saying it’s go time. There are no units of note defending the northern half of the Empire. A single RCT could conquer dozens of systems at breakneck speed.

Then we have the bare ten clusters of the Empire, of which several are already mangled, two are bogged down on New Olympia. And one is stranded on Simpson Desert.

The only thing the Empire has going for it is the Spina Khanate that could spend about five clusters worth of troops to help defend the Empire, but for what? Othar traded away his most valuable assets already to buy time. There’s also the point that the protectorate (Spirit Cats) have every reason to side with FWL and very little beyond ideology to side with the Empire. Ideology is cold comfort if your actions result in the destruction of your nation.

Now, the meta point: I think CGL is going to be cautious about wiping a faction after the unbridled tire fire of the end of the RotS. But eliminating Alaric’s or Othar’s wolves (just one) still leaves Wolves alive and finally creates a “found out” stage of wolves taking such stupid risks.



All that said, I think the empire will survive as a shadow of its former self and probably will be hostile to Alaric. They know he freely abandoned them and put them at huge risk for Alaric’s personal gain.

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #43 on: 05 September 2023, 19:38:47 »

To the OP regarding Terra, the ilClan will have little to no impact on Terra if history is any guide.  The changeovers from Hegemony to ComStar, from ComStar to Blakists, and from Blakists to Republic had no appreciable impact on Terra’s population, governance, society, etc. that I’m aware of.  The game universe focuses on the thousands of people that fight with mechs, not on the trillions of sheeple that don’t seem to care what the thousands of mech jocks are doing unless and until the plot demands that there be a populist rebellion or guerrilla movement agains the people with the mechs.

The governance structure of the resurrected Star League, however, will have to be detailed at some point, and it’s very murky what that looks like with Clanners running the show.
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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #44 on: 05 September 2023, 19:43:16 »
 Anytime I ponder on this scenario, I find that while there is an ancient tradition of realpolitik where you allow an enemy to survive lest you lack a potential ally one day, Clan Wolf is difficult to fit within this profile. This may sound odd as the Huns did survive this way, but contrary to popular understanding, the Huns were tracked and easily contained by the time this was employed upon them. Leaders like Aetius and the Augustus Zeno made mincemeat of them in actual battles (They were outright feared by the Huns). They moved from being able to control enemy movements to being under the control of the Romans in good situations and outright absorbed by others in bad ones. A remnant situation for Clan Wolf would be a struggle at best, but they have made it through struggles before.
« Last Edit: 05 September 2023, 19:54:48 by Minemech »

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #45 on: 05 September 2023, 20:21:35 »
PS Anyone thinking of bringing up the northern Italian campaign, I brought this example for a reason, depth. The Huns were stuck in a situation where the western Roman Empire could absorb their damage, cut them off, and conquer their home. They had to flee and leave the Roman capital of Ravenna untouched. Successor States, like the Roman Empire at one time, have depth. Tragically for the western Empire, Majorian's attempts to regain Africa were sabotaged, making the empire's ultimate defense impossible.
« Last Edit: 05 September 2023, 20:23:50 by Minemech »

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #46 on: 06 September 2023, 05:50:03 »
I probably think a bit differently because the Clans are a different culture. Unlike the previous "owners" the Clans have usually a very strict role definiton of it's civilian population. Making Terra the center of a new Star League (however that is going to happen) and giving Terrans a huge say might be the best outcome to appease them. But enforcing a caste society with very limited mobility (or even scientist determined marriages) would most likely not be possible considering Terra's size. The others basically used bread and circus to keep the population compliant and Alaric will have to use the same method. Plus at this point there are still some Republic big shots at large and who knows what they are up to (well Tucker is playing the Twitter troll but what about the rest?)

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #47 on: 06 September 2023, 17:06:40 »
Granted that it was the Falcons doing it, but during the battle, we did see Clan troops taking over a broadcast station on Terra while they were on the air.
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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #48 on: 06 September 2023, 18:26:11 »
Yeah. Walked in and murdered the broadcasters on air IIRC. Not exactly helping Alaric shake off the bad reputation.

Yes, those were Falcons. But a lot of the sphere is probably going to think of the Terran Falcons as Alaric’s pets and functionally an oddly painted clan wolf unit for a long time.

Metallgewitter

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #49 on: 07 September 2023, 05:56:20 »
Considering how Alaric invited the Falcons to Terra he is more or less responsible for it. And as long as the underground news blanket Terra's air waves it is a thorn in his side.
Though I expect his watch to catch the perpetrator soon (most likely in IKEO).

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #50 on: 07 September 2023, 11:58:43 »
Once the Wolves moved from the OZ to establish the Empire they took a much more classic Clan Wolf approach while under Alaric as compared to how Vlad ran things in the OZ.

Clan Wolf integrated factories, brought on a LOT of local units building up the touman leading up to the invasion of Terra etc.

It would seem logical to assume that this approach would be kept for Terra as well. Power corrupts so who knows what Alaric will do with his ego moving forward.......but Stone hit pretty close to home with Alaric at the end. My money would be on Alaric taking a moderate approach to integrating territory......at least until their power base is more secured.

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #51 on: 07 September 2023, 12:39:01 »
Once the Wolves moved from the OZ to establish the Empire they took a much more classic Clan Wolf approach while under Alaric as compared to how Vlad ran things in the OZ.

Clan Wolf integrated factories, brought on a LOT of local units building up the touman leading up to the invasion of Terra etc.

It would seem logical to assume that this approach would be kept for Terra as well. Power corrupts so who knows what Alaric will do with his ego moving forward.......but Stone hit pretty close to home with Alaric at the end. My money would be on Alaric taking a moderate approach to integrating territory......at least until their power base is more secured.

The thing is though that his Empire is breaking like a house of cards. Yes his garrisons are thin but this just encouraged more of former Leaguers to go full on "FREEDOM!" turning against their Wolf overlords. But yes it would be the only approach left since his own military is seriously depleted and with most available sibkos getting harvested by the Dragoons there is no other option. The Wolf clan will turn IS in the long turn
« Last Edit: 07 September 2023, 16:41:20 by Metallgewitter »

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #52 on: 07 September 2023, 12:49:48 »
The ilClan has forces outside the wall on at least two planets 18 months after the fall of the Republic, with one of them is just sitting garrisoning Caph.   Whatever settlement Clan Wolf and the Terrans arrived at, they came to it fairly quickly.   Which for me, reads like the Wolves ruling with a light touch, and not going full Way of the Clans on Terra.

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #53 on: 07 September 2023, 16:09:20 »
The thing is though that his Empire is breaking like a house of cards. Yes his garrisons are thin but this just encouraged more of former Leaguers to go full on "FREEDOM!" turning against their Wolf overlords. But yes it would be the only approach left since his opwn military is seriouzsly depelted and with most available sibkos getting harvested by the Dragoons there is no other option. The Wolf clan will turn IS in the long turn

Yes the Empire is in rough shape. I was only addressing the way in which Alaric would approach governing Terra / expanding the Star League moving forward and using his past methods in the Empire as a frame of reference.

Different authors have represented his personality in various ways for better or worse. But they all kept him (for the most part) pragmatic and with Ulric levels of planning things out at times. Once the "oh crap what do I do now that I actually WON" wears off I'm sure he will have a plan in place for next steps. Whether it works or not is another thing.

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #54 on: 07 September 2023, 17:22:25 »
It's also proven that Alaric can check his ego enough to surround himself with talented people and actually listen to them.  That will mean a lot for the coming future as well.
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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #55 on: 07 September 2023, 17:31:52 »
Once the Wolves moved from the OZ to establish the Empire they took a much more classic Clan Wolf approach while under Alaric as compared to how Vlad ran things in the OZ.

Clan Wolf integrated factories, brought on a LOT of local units building up the touman leading up to the invasion of Terra etc.

It would seem logical to assume that this approach would be kept for Terra as well. Power corrupts so who knows what Alaric will do with his ego moving forward.......but Stone hit pretty close to home with Alaric at the end. My money would be on Alaric taking a moderate approach to integrating territory......at least until their power base is more secured.

The “moderate” approach in the Empire was still heavy fisted. Everything was still prioritizing military buildup over all other things. Including basic infrastructure in some cases. We know some were joining the touman because it was basically that or suffer.

I do think eventually wolves or whoever is the final ilclan will mellow in their method of rule, but I think Alaric is going to open hard with his clanniest of clan governments to ever govern plans. AQoS shows he really doesn’t get listening to civilians to rule. That’s a huge red flag.

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #56 on: 07 September 2023, 17:34:34 »
The ilClan has forces outside the wall on at least two planets 18 months after the fall of the Republic, with one of them is just sitting garrisoning Caph.   Whatever settlement Clan Wolf and the Terrans arrived at, they came to it fairly quickly.   Which for me, reads like the Wolves ruling with a light touch, and not going full Way of the Clans on Terra.

We don’t actually know that. We know controls about of 7 planets around Terra by June 3152. Empire have two, Bears have two, and DC has three. Caph had falcons on it in December. 3151 and not many. Also consider that most movement in the sourcebooks has been Jan to June 3152.

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #57 on: 07 September 2023, 20:59:08 »
 Alaric revolutionized Clan understanding by abandoning the need for sovereign territory to accomplish his long-term objective of taking Terra. In that light, the Empire was a pseudo state.

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #58 on: 08 September 2023, 01:32:48 »
A pseudo state he needs because who is gonna supply Terra's hunger for raw materials? Yes there is the Belt and maybe even Deep Sea mining but those are costly. He is probably making himself totally deependend on the Foxes in that regard. And if the Capellans have really< cut of the Empire's stretch to Terra his supply lines have become quiet fragile should the Capellans decide to attack any Clanner they come across

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #59 on: 09 September 2023, 13:40:58 »
We don’t actually know that. We know controls about of 7 planets around Terra by June 3152. Empire have two, Bears have two, and DC has three. Caph had falcons on it in December. 3151 and not many. Also consider that most movement in the sourcebooks has been Jan to June 3152.

The diorama at Gencon had a mixed ilClan force on New Earth in December 3152.
The AlphaStrike Boxset had Jade Falcon on Caph also in December 3152.

Both of these can safely be assumed to represent forces attacking outward from Terra, rather than captured prior to 3151.  The December 3152 is an interesting date because it's a full 6 months past the time horizon of the 3 ilClan sourcebooks.

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #60 on: 09 September 2023, 14:31:35 »
The diorama at Gencon had a mixed ilClan force on New Earth in December 3152.
The AlphaStrike Boxset had Jade Falcon on Caph also in December 3152.

Both of these can safely be assumed to represent forces attacking outward from Terra, rather than captured prior to 3151.  The December 3152 is an interesting date because it's a full 6 months past the time horizon of the 3 ilClan sourcebooks.

Caph makes sense for the Falcons.  Daniel Mattlov inherited the title Duke of Caph after the dust settled from the Amaris Crisis.  Of course, he said screw it and left with Kerensky as we all know. 

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #61 on: 09 September 2023, 21:10:41 »
Caph makes sense for the Falcons.  Daniel Mattlov inherited the title Duke of Caph after the dust settled from the Amaris Crisis.  Of course, he said screw it and left with Kerensky as we all know. 

An interesting deep cut, but I seriously doubt this nugget will ever come into play.
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Church14

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #62 on: 09 September 2023, 22:46:41 »
The diorama at Gencon had a mixed ilClan force on New Earth in December 3152.
The AlphaStrike Boxset had Jade Falcon on Caph also in December 3152.

Both of these can safely be assumed to represent forces attacking outward from Terra, rather than captured prior to 3151.  The December 3152 is an interesting date because it's a full 6 months past the time horizon of the 3 ilClan sourcebooks.

I don’t have the AS box, my understanding is AS story was Dec of 3151. The New Home thing was December 3151. That’s six months after Alaric takes his crown.

Ilclan books are ending seven months after that. Which makes me think this is the first steps of the wolves outward after they repair, rearm, and prep themselves and their pet clans.

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #63 on: 09 September 2023, 23:35:31 »
An interesting deep cut, but I seriously doubt this nugget will ever come into play.

If the Falcons take Caph, then that's all I meant.

Besides, what I'm really getting at is the Falcons have always had a deep connection to not just the Star League, but to the Terran Hegemony. 

Elizbeth Hazen was born on Terra and did some of the greatest fighting of her life there during the Amaris Crisis. 

Carl Icaza was likely a spy for the Hegemony working against the Lyrans when he was younger.

When the Clans were picking out warships from the SLDF fleet, the Falcons took more Aegis cruisers than anyone.  The Aegis design predates the Star League, dating back to the Terran Hegemony.

And then we have the Duke of Caph Mattlov.

Just another connection, nothing more or less. 

« Last Edit: 09 September 2023, 23:37:11 by rebs »
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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #64 on: 10 September 2023, 11:12:03 »
I don’t have the AS box, my understanding is AS story was Dec of 3151. The New Home thing was December 3151. That’s six months after Alaric takes his crown.

Ilclan books are ending seven months after that. Which makes me think this is the first steps of the wolves outward after they repair, rearm, and prep themselves and their pet clans.

You are correct.  They are both 51 and (and not 52).

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #65 on: 11 September 2023, 05:54:09 »
I don’t have the AS box, my understanding is AS story was Dec of 3151. The New Home thing was December 3151. That’s six months after Alaric takes his crown.

Ilclan books are ending seven months after that. Which makes me think this is the first steps of the wolves outward after they repair, rearm, and prep themselves and their pet clans.

Probably also feeling the need to step out of Terra as their protection is running on fumes. Better to secure the suroundings first lest the Capellans pull a "Suprise!" invasion of Terra with no forewarning.

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #66 on: 11 September 2023, 07:40:45 »
Probably also feeling the need to step out of Terra as their protection is running on fumes. Better to secure the suroundings first lest the Capellans pull a "Suprise!" invasion of Terra with no forewarning.

I’m taking the Fox Khan’s comment in EA at face value. Alaric probably wants to push any enemy beyond at least one jump from Terra.

The timing makes me think it’s a mix of what you said (wall is basically out of fuel), that the wolves have finally healed, repaired, and rearmed the survivors of Terra, and Alaric wants to get back on offense to build that buffer. The December actions are essentially cautious recon to determine the situation.

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #67 on: 11 September 2023, 08:14:52 »
I’m taking the Fox Khan’s comment in EA at face value. Alaric probably wants to push any enemy beyond at least one jump from Terra.

The timing makes me think it’s a mix of what you said (wall is basically out of fuel),

The Ravens have plenty of fuel lol

Church14

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #68 on: 11 September 2023, 09:04:32 »
The Ravens have plenty of fuel lol

There’s legitimate concern over how to deal with the Raven fleet, but damn would “Alaric uses Ice Storm naval Star as wall fuel” not one I would expect.

I’m assuming he’s fueling the wall with the small mountain of wrecked warships in Sol first. Maybe the RAF fleet and all the dead Falcon ships bought him six months.

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #69 on: 11 September 2023, 11:17:21 »
There’s legitimate concern over how to deal with the Raven fleet, but damn would “Alaric uses Ice Storm naval Star as wall fuel” not one I would expect.

I’m assuming he’s fueling the wall with the small mountain of wrecked warships in Sol first. Maybe the RAF fleet and all the dead Falcon ships bought him six months.

One ship has one KF core right? So that would mean nearly 10 cores if I count correctly. But was there any mention how long one core let's the wall last? _Is it dependent on if someone tries to brave the wall? Oh I am just waiting for "and the Wolves sacrificed every last one of their warships to gain more time" The simple method to strip Warships from the game unless they act as a poor man's space station

Church14

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #70 on: 11 September 2023, 11:58:05 »
One ship has one KF core right? So that would mean nearly 10 cores if I count correctly. But was there any mention how long one core let's the wall last? _Is it dependent on if someone tries to brave the wall? Oh I am just waiting for "and the Wolves sacrificed every last one of their warships to gain more time" The simple method to strip Warships from the game unless they act as a poor man's space station

I don’t think it’s spelled out for sure. But the impression I got was:
- 1 core burned to take out one incoming jump
- being locked and loaded is hard on the core and eventually burns in out anyway even if not fired. Unsure how long this takes.

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #71 on: 11 September 2023, 13:59:54 »
Wasn't it mentioned in one of the books (maybe HotW, maybe AQoS) that Alaric was planning to drop the Wall before they ran out of "fuel" anyway?
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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #72 on: 11 September 2023, 14:25:16 »
Wasn't it mentioned in one of the books (maybe HotW, maybe AQoS) that Alaric was planning to drop the Wall before they ran out of "fuel" anyway?

Could be a mix of a desire to be on offense as fast as he can so he dictates initiative or just that he feels like he needs to appear a decisive, aggressive ilKhan

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #73 on: 11 September 2023, 14:52:04 »
Could be a mix of a desire to be on offense as fast as he can so he dictates initiative or just that he feels like he needs to appear a decisive, aggressive ilKhan

Exactly what I thought when I read it, too. When I look at the GenCon diorama through that lens, I see Alaric looking at his weakened position and all of these Clans that are looking at him in turn to fulfill their collective destiny (and/or to make a mistake because the Clans LOVE eating each other), looking at the Capellans who he knows are the number one threat to Terra right now, wrapping that up in his love of symbolism, and coming out with his Star League Defense Force to show the Inner Sphere that the game has changed and he's not kidding around.
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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #74 on: 11 September 2023, 17:56:33 »
If I was Alaric I'd adopt a "Puffer fish defense" I'd swap paint jobs, configs designations and hit multiple planets hard and fast in an attempt to make my military apper MUCH bigger then it is, if we assume clan sea fox gives the Ilclan priority for HPG repairs, Tera if you'll recall was the central hub of the original HPG network, if Alaric has a big comms advantage then that'd reaaaaaally be helpful
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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #75 on: 12 September 2023, 01:54:28 »
If I was Alaric I'd adopt a "Puffer fish defense" I'd swap paint jobs, configs designations and hit multiple planets hard and fast in an attempt to make my military apper MUCH bigger then it is, if we assume clan sea fox gives the Ilclan priority for HPG repairs, Tera if you'll recall was the central hub of the original HPG network, if Alaric has a big comms advantage then that'd reaaaaaally be helpful

What good does a working HPG on Terra do if the planets you hit have none? He needs a fully working network at this point. And the Foxes can't make repairs on planets that are being battlegrounds can they? Not to mention if the Capellans capture a working HPG they might figure out how to fix theirs.

Though what could be used are the last remaining Warships as Clan ships should have working HPG's. Though that would stretch a precious commodity if he sends out his few remaining ships in one ship formations

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #76 on: 12 September 2023, 04:28:11 »
What good does a working HPG on Terra do if the planets you hit have none? He needs a fully working network at this point. And the Foxes can't make repairs on planets that are being battlegrounds can they? Not to mention if the Capellans capture a working HPG they might figure out how to fix theirs.

Though what could be used are the last remaining Warships as Clan ships should have working HPG's. Though that would stretch a precious commodity if he sends out his few remaining ships in one ship formations
Or mass his fleet and use the HPG network to drop it on invasions as needed.

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #77 on: 12 September 2023, 07:05:56 »
What good does a working HPG on Terra do if the planets you hit have none? He needs a fully working network at this point. And the Foxes can't make repairs on planets that are being battlegrounds can they? Not to mention if the Capellans capture a working HPG they might figure out how to fix theirs.

Though what could be used are the last remaining Warships as Clan ships should have working HPG's. Though that would stretch a precious commodity if he sends out his few remaining ships in one ship formations
I think the warships will sit as a fleet in being in Sol.

That said, I do like your idea to use the ship HPGs so the Wolves get a strategic tool to move and shift their few troops around efficiently.

Metallgewitter

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #78 on: 12 September 2023, 07:11:48 »
I think the warships will sit as a fleet in being in Sol.

That said, I do like your idea to use the ship HPGs so the Wolves get a strategic tool to move and shift their few troops around efficiently.

It might also be a way to loose at least one Warship if they don't have the support in form of fighters or Pocket Warships. Of course nobody will be as dumb as Caleb to park a heavy cruiser in orbit and just wait to have it shot down but the risk is there

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #79 on: 12 September 2023, 09:03:10 »
If I was Alaric I'd adopt a "Puffer fish defense" I'd swap paint jobs, configs designations and hit multiple planets hard and fast in an attempt to make my military apper MUCH bigger then it is, if we assume clan sea fox gives the Ilclan priority for HPG repairs, Tera if you'll recall was the central hub of the original HPG network, if Alaric has a big comms advantage then that'd reaaaaaally be helpful

Good idea

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #80 on: 12 September 2023, 14:29:22 »
What good does a working HPG on Terra do if the planets you hit have none? He needs a fully working network at this point. And the Foxes can't make repairs on planets that are being battlegrounds can they? Not to mention if the Capellans capture a working HPG they might figure out how to fix theirs.

Though what could be used are the last remaining Warships as Clan ships should have working HPG's. Though that would stretch a precious commodity if he sends out his few remaining ships in one ship formations

The broken part about HPGs is their ability to send, not receive, this is why planets that have a few remaining HPGs are so valuable
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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #81 on: 12 September 2023, 14:52:56 »
Clan Warships carry HPG, we know of a Clan Mobile HPG on a certain mech chassis that is still in production, even if it's original purpose was tainted.

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #82 on: 12 September 2023, 15:27:18 »
Clan Warships carry HPG, we know of a Clan Mobile HPG on a certain mech chassis that is still in production, even if it's original purpose was tainted.

TT
So do some Capellan Pocket Warships.

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #83 on: 12 September 2023, 15:56:48 »
And we know a bunch of spaceborne HPGs got fried. You need to be very careful what you receive, and you don't get much choice about it.

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #84 on: 12 September 2023, 17:00:08 »
Or mass his fleet and use the HPG network to drop it on invasions as needed.

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #85 on: 14 October 2023, 14:34:17 »
With the possible exception of technological prowess (Something Terra could absorb in the blink of an eye), the Clans really have nothing competent to offer Terra in terms of governance.

With ilKhan Make-Everyone-My-Enemy Alaric Ward at the helm, I have my doubts about whether we'll see any of the potential benefits of an ilClan, but I would argue that in the abstract at least that an ilClan-led Star League could offer the inner sphere a better way of waging war. Prior to the Clans returning, and prior to the total war of the Jihad, the average citizen was rarely depicted as having a lot of stake in whose flag flew over their world. If they cared, they were probably involved in the military or the state in some way and for everyone else, life ground on regardless. War was mostly a weird pasttime of the nobles in charge, rather than anything prosecuted to the hilt. So, there's a precedent for the conflicts in the inner sphere being a caricature of war. Fundamentally, can we say that this is really all that different from the clan system where this is made plain and disputes are formalized into trials? For anyone participating in the ilClan's Star League, instituting combat trials rather than open warfare would be a marked improvement on the way this is conducted in the inner sphere. a strong clan-based Star League could enforce these standards and take action against habitual violators of it.

Instead of bemoaning Social Generals buying their way into commands and wasting lives for their hubris, rank could be won through Trials of Position, or if someone still manages to buy their way into power one way or another, they could be dealt with through Trials of Refusal and Grievance.

Instead of fighting a battle for control or possession of an important factory right there on the factory grounds and damaging it in the process you could fight a distant Trial of Possession for the facility, and risk no civilian lives, nor the integrity of the prize. Instead of making an objective raid and having to fight your way to the objective, take it, and escape, you could just Trial for possession of it.

Instead of risking another Jihad, another all-out war across known space, war could be compartmentalized. tidy.

More radically, it does not seem impossible that someone might see the virutes in the clan means of producing warriors. You can certainly argue that the clans have never necessarily lived up to the premise, but Iron Wombs and Bloodnames offer the possibility of insulating the lower castes from the horrors of war. If you take the genes of successful warriors and use them to produce more warriors, selecting the best of them lets you staff a force with olympian grade people, trained for far longer than a normal civilian could do, and their lives are disconnected from the worldly attachments that make war such a tragedy. A warrior who did not have to worry about leaving a spouse or freeborn children behind could more easily fight without reservation. Knowing that fighting boldly, valliantly, successfully is going to do more to secure the progression of their bloodline than taking actions to preserve their life would, means that they can fight without hesitation, make sacrifices knowing that they will live on. There is no family waiting at home for a parent or a sibling who will never return.

and from a Meta angle, the notion of Trial Culture becoming widespread is an excellent excuse for small scale battles with large scale meaning behind them. Only want to fight a 4 on 4, but want that fight to be significant? This is a trial for something important, and there's only eight machines on the field because that's what the bidding produced.

And maybe you're onboard with the idea of formalizing battle along those lines, but still object to the austere and authoritarian aspects of Clan Culture? Well, not only are you in luck because Clan Wolf is historically permissive and hands-off with their lower castes (had virtually zero issues with the society in the Reavings because their scientists weren't unhappy enough to get involved, absorbed clan widowmaker in a dispute that began over harsh treatment of lower castes, has been stated to be hands-off numerous times) and they are at the helm, so there is every bit of potential to see a similarly free attitude about people who aren't part of fighting and fighting related industries. Beyond that, the spartan lifestyle of the clans makes sense for the Warrior Caste, and perhaps some of the people in direct interface with them because adveristy and austerity can foster strength, but I would argue that the imposition of that lifestyle upon all citizens of the clan was a necessary measure in the resource poor hellscapes of the clan homeworlds, but is unnecessary and wasteful in the plenty of the inner sphere. If you are starving aboard a life raft while adrift at sea, rationing your food supply makes sense. You would be foolish not to. But applying the same attitude to a cozy holiday feast is madness. Just so, there is no reason that the clans would have to continue that for everyone under their rule in the inner sphere.

Perhaps there isn't much of that which is of immediate and great benefit to Terra in specific, but there are merits to this notion for members of a new star league as a whole.
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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #86 on: 14 October 2023, 15:41:43 »
Prior to the Clans returning, and prior to the total war of the Jihad, the average citizen was rarely depicted as having a lot of stake in whose flag flew over their world. If they cared, they were probably involved in the military or the state in some way and for everyone else, life ground on regardless.

For some areas that was true. For FedSuns citizens when the outcome of a battle made the difference between living free and living under Combine or Capellan totalitarianism, that would certainly be a different story.

For anyone participating in the ilClan's Star League, instituting combat trials rather than open warfare would be a marked improvement on the way this is conducted in the inner sphere. a strong clan-based Star League could enforce these standards and take action against habitual violators of it.



Instead of fighting a battle for control or possession of an important factory right there on the factory grounds and damaging it in the process you could fight a distant Trial of Possession for the facility, and risk no civilian lives, nor the integrity of the prize. Instead of making an objective raid and having to fight your way to the objective, take it, and escape, you could just Trial for possession of it.

Instead of risking another Jihad, another all-out war across known space, war could be compartmentalized. tidy.

My own thoughts exactly on why the Clan system of warfare is better than the Inner Sphere style as far as civilians are concerned. Not the eugenics program and barbaric murder of people simply for having the wrong genes or being in the wrong Clan, that's just plain evil. But the use of Trials designed to vent humanity's natural propensity for violence and eliminate civilian casualties? That, many in the Inner Sphere could support, especially those living in war-prone regions.

Beyond that, the spartan lifestyle of the clans makes sense for the Warrior Caste, and perhaps some of the people in direct interface with them because adveristy and austerity can foster strength, but I would argue that the imposition of that lifestyle upon all citizens of the clan was a necessary measure in the resource poor hellscapes of the clan homeworlds, but is unnecessary and wasteful in the plenty of the inner sphere. If you are starving aboard a life raft while adrift at sea, rationing your food supply makes sense. You would be foolish not to. But applying the same attitude to a cozy holiday feast is madness. Just so, there is no reason that the clans would have to continue that for everyone under their rule in the inner sphere.

There's canon suggesting that was already the case for most Clans (the Shrapnel article on Operation Hollywood, one of my personal favourites). Only the Jade Falcons really implemented the austerity economy of the Homeworlds.

In fact the Rasalhague Dominion's already done a lot of what you've suggested, and could have been a blueprint for Alaric's new Star League. What a shame he seems to spat on that, although we're still early in the ilClan era. There's time enough for it to happen.
« Last Edit: 14 October 2023, 15:45:22 by Orwell84 »
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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #87 on: 14 October 2023, 18:36:44 »


And maybe you're onboard with the idea of formalizing battle along those lines, but still object to the austere and authoritarian aspects of Clan Culture? Well, not only are you in luck because Clan Wolf is historically permissive and hands-off with their lower castes (had virtually zero issues with the society in the Reavings because their scientists weren't unhappy enough to get involved, absorbed clan widowmaker in a dispute that began over harsh treatment of lower castes, has been stated to be hands-off numerous times) and they are at the helm, so there is every bit of potential to see a similarly free attitude about people who aren't part of fighting and fighting related industries.

You might want to reread some of the sourcebooks post 3145.  When the Wolves abandoned their territory the populace was more unsure and scared than accepting.  They were treated more like second class citizens than fellow clansmen especially under Vlad Wards Khanship.

You may view the “Clan way” as more civilized but various Clan factions have used orbital bombardment, WMDs, and scapegoating when it suits their purpose. 

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #88 on: 14 October 2023, 18:42:45 »
etc., etc.
I really love everything you're saying, but unfortunately I have to disagree with it.

The Clan way of warfare is best. So is <<POLITICAL SYSTEM OF CHOICE>>. Elias Critchell proves that you can sleaze your way up the ranks regardless of skill as a warrior in the Clan system. The Wars of Reaving show that the entire system itself is a pretense once social pressures require a choice between reform born from introspection and cathartic destruction born from reactionary impulse.

I also seem to remember something in Battletech about the average citizen of the Inner Sphere only noticing the change of flags and currency when their planet changed hands, but I can't find a source for it. Whether it's real or not, that just isn't the case anymore. Capellan, Combine, and Rasalhague/Dominion are just too different to leave the lower classes unfazed by planetary conquest.

That requires the average IS citizen be incredibly apathetic and only restive on a significant scale when the plot demands it, which...yeah. Otherwise Clan Wolf dies on Terra.

Being the most permissive Clan is a lot like being the least madness-causing Old One. Maybe citizens accustomed to oppression would see the sexual liberation as being worth feeling their teeth hit curb over trying to spread their religion. I feel that the western, middle-class, non-nobility we generally see in the fiction don't jive with that. "Jibe"? Despite his heritage, Alaric's attitude feels really Clan-y and I don't see his endgame as anything but the relegation of Inner Sphere citizens as Clanner lower castes.

The core irony of The Way of the Clans--despite my affection for it--is that it is based on a type of warfare that protects a society that is based solely around warfare. If that works out for Alaric, it's because the average Inner Sphere citizen has decided not to give a ****** as they were ground beneath his bootheel and forced to mine ore, turn that ore into Ferro-Fibrous armor, apply that armor to a battlemech, and then patch that armor when it gets shot up in a laser-based dick swinging contest between members of a genetically-tweaked ruling class who feel those citizens exist merely to facilitate their dick swinging contests.

But what I like from Dark Ages TRO is that there are several cases of Clanners and Inner Sphere commanders still issuing and accepting dueling challenges. Clan bloodnames are a type of nobility and the...courtesy extended between the two is an interesting facet of Inner Sphere warfare. An Inner Sphere in which the ruling classes boil down the previously-referenced member-waving contests to a one-on-one fight between members of the governing class is a better place to live in. If a third Star League can do that, then that's great.
« Last Edit: 15 October 2023, 15:15:52 by VanVelding »
Co-host of 17 to 01 and The Beige and The Bold. I also have a dusty old blog about whatever comes to mind vanvelding.blogspot.

Fire Scorpion IIC

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #89 on: 15 October 2023, 14:13:31 »
...
In fact the Rasalhague Dominion's already done a lot of what you've suggested, and could have been a blueprint for Alaric's new Star League. What a shame he seems to spat on that, although we're still early in the ilClan era. There's time enough for it to happen.

Rasalhague Dominion gets a lot of praise for society building but I do need to remind folks here of the example of honorable Scorpion Empire who successfully applied the original Ghost Bear Dominion Statement and not the compromised second draft.


tassa_kay

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #90 on: 15 October 2023, 17:24:21 »
Hot take: the RasDom gets more praise for their society building because it feels more earned. The Scorpion Empire made a hard shift away from the extremely chaotic (and IMO, much more interesting to read about) situation they were in during ISP3 to this perfect little society with nary a problem of any real consequence. The Imperial/Preserver thing? Literally only appeared in a single short story that read more like an info dump than an actual story. And it all magically went away by the end of that story. It feels less like a living, breathing faction and more like wish fulfillment.
« Last Edit: 15 October 2023, 17:30:39 by tassa_kay »
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Fire Scorpion IIC

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #91 on: 15 October 2023, 19:43:59 »
Hot take: the RasDom gets more praise for their society building because it feels more earned. The Scorpion Empire made a hard shift away from the extremely chaotic (and IMO, much more interesting to read about) situation they were in during ISP3 to this perfect little society with nary a problem of any real consequence. The Imperial/Preserver thing? Literally only appeared in a single short story that read more like an info dump than an actual story. And it all magically went away by the end of that story. It feels less like a living, breathing faction and more like wish fulfillment.

Interesting wishlist if I do say so myself

Here is my hot take: if entire RasDom lore was suddenly trimmed down to 20-ish pages of text plus couple of Shrapnel stories it would feel like Tumblr fanfic of highest order

Just like Scorpions would have felt more fleshed out if their lore spanned several IRL decades and a chunky pile of full size sourcebooks and novels like Bears do

And Scorpions in ISP3 were interesting because they were moving towards something new and not being stuck in place, should they ever get more than pamphlet sized content we will get more details about nitty gritty, it's how literature works

And none of this has any bearing on the fact that they applied OG Ghost Bear Dominion recipe on the Imperio


Metallgewitter

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #92 on: 16 October 2023, 02:47:36 »
I also seem to remember something in Battletech about the average citizen of the Inner Sphere only noticing the change of flags and currency when their planet changed hands, but I can't find a source for it. Whether it's real or not, that just isn't the case anymore. Capellan, Combine, and Rasalhague/Dominion are just too different to leave the lower classes unfazed by planetary conquest.
There was a menton in either a novel or sourcebook that border worlds which are often heavily guarded are more accepting of a new ruler then interior worlds which are often less fortified. Which was a paradox for the Clans once they broken through the first lines of defenses.

On another note: I recently read Redemption Rites and there the Wolves aren't exactly painted as good rulers: forcing youths with aptitude into the military at basically gunpoint or with the threat of disowning their family and even then disowning them despite the compliance. Or cutting down social programs which leads to the death of the elderly.  I can see that becoming a serious issue especially when they are more or less forced to adopt more Terrnas into their military. Trueborns are very VERY small minority in the IS. Because warriors are the ruling class and if said class is filled with people who want to avenge themselves on the Wolves you create a serious powderkeg waiting to explode

Church14

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #93 on: 16 October 2023, 08:01:16 »
Wolves also resorted to cutting off water supplies on certain planets to quell protests. They were pretty terrible rulers in many cases. (Note: a LOT of factions are terrible in specific moments like this.)

Either:
1) the current lore’s painting of how garbage wolves are as rulers is going to get tossed out and suddenly Terra loves Wolves.
2) Wolves suddenly change their stance on how to treat civilians (not likely while Alaric lives)
3) Terra will be the wolf capital, but it’ll never be home. They’ll be stuck for decades on a planet that hates their guts.

JAMES_PRYDE

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #94 on: 16 October 2023, 08:13:44 »
Either:
1) the current lore’s painting of how garbage wolves are as rulers is going to get tossed out and suddenly Terra loves Wolves.
2) Wolves suddenly change their stance on how to treat civilians (not likely while Alaric lives)
3) Terra will be the wolf capital, but it’ll never be home. They’ll be stuck for decades on a planet that hates their guts.

Combo of all three probably

I remember reading a comment here that as Terrans and near by systems being descendants of the Terran Hegemony (that did not leave in the Exodus) would prefer "Clan Stylings" when faced with House Lords history

Metallgewitter

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #95 on: 16 October 2023, 08:15:55 »
Wolves also resorted to cutting off water supplies on certain planets to quell protests. They were pretty terrible rulers in many cases. (Note: a LOT of factions are terrible in specific moments like this.)

Either:
1) the current lore’s painting of how garbage wolves are as rulers is going to get tossed out and suddenly Terra loves Wolves.
2) Wolves suddenly change their stance on how to treat civilians (not likely while Alaric lives)
3) Terra will be the wolf capital, but it’ll never be home. They’ll be stuck for decades on a planet that hates their guts.

Option 4)
They stick with the lesser of two evils. I think the choice between Capellans or Clanners might rather go in favor of the Clanners

Fire Scorpion IIC

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #96 on: 16 October 2023, 12:03:35 »
Option 4)
They stick with the lesser of two evils. I think the choice between Capellans or Clanners might rather go in favor of the Clanners

This right here

Shoddy government is better than Capelan government




VanVelding

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Re: How will the Clans shape Terra and their Star League?
« Reply #97 on: 16 October 2023, 16:13:24 »
I'd say it sounds like Terra needs their own Phelan Kell, but in hindsight the first one didn't turn out too well.
Co-host of 17 to 01 and The Beige and The Bold. I also have a dusty old blog about whatever comes to mind vanvelding.blogspot.

 

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