Recent Posts

91

Aerospace Combat / Re: Fleet Recon

« Last post by Hellraiser on 16 May 2024, 20:24:04 »

Isn't one of the main sources of across the border intel what you get from long time sleeper agent spies?

I feel like this has been mentioned in fluff sources over the years.

I don't mean scouts inserted on world a month ahead of the invasion but actual citizens living on said world that send out C* messages (encoded), or transmit to passing jumpships/dropships (also crewed by spies v/s actual merchants) using home commo systems hidden in the basement, etc etc.

I think it's even been mentioned that sometimes those spies are known but left in place because if they are swept up it stops the info flow for a while but then a new one will take over & have to be found out again which generally is not a fast or guaranteed process & involves luck & the spy making a mistake, etc etc, or just bad spy-craft but I assume the IS has methods of collecting data over the border that doesn't just involve some unseen satellites or drive by picture runs.

92

Aerospace Combat / Re: Fleet Recon

« Last post by Paul on 16 May 2024, 20:21:58 »

If there's going to be anyone who's an expert, it's going to be Comstar.

I'm not sure why a conversation about fleet recon drifted to Comstar.

  and as for vested interests, they do take payment from everyone including the people you're intent on spying on.

Yes. So their vested interest to meddle is consequently also close to 0.
Which is why historically, their meddling has been rather tiny.

one of the most fundamental truisms of intelligence, is that any source or route you can't control, is by definition unreliable and open to compromise.

Sure. By ComStar. Not by my competition.

Thus, by definition, your agents-in-place are limited value items with at best unreliable reporting-because there's no hard guarantee that the unsecured method by which their reports are arriving *(and your orders are traveling) hasn't been altered, edited, or "Lost".

That's been true for all of recorded history. As you said:

Thus, why you don't rely on any single method or source. 

So I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to make.

the sole and only 'reliable' method of communication, is one that your faction completely controls.

That's great, but that's not a universe we live in. Neither for real or in BT.

One-time pads exist, and are unbreakable unless you can get a copy of the pad... ;)

Yes, and while that's not explicitly stated, it is clear that intel agencies can work around Comstar in a variety of ways. And that's one for sure.
Meanwhile, even if any encryption can be cracked, doesn't mean it will, or that it will in time.

93

Aerospace Combat / Re: Fleet Recon

« Last post by Daryk on 16 May 2024, 20:15:27 »

One-time pads exist, and are unbreakable unless you can get a copy of the pad... ;)

94

Aerospace Combat / Re: Fleet Recon

« Last post by Cannonshop on 16 May 2024, 20:08:42 »

Yes, I said that.


Then we seem to agree that pirate points aren't irrelevant when contemplating fleet recon.


Sure. And sometimes it's because they want a certain aesthetic; something to be true in-universe regardless of reality. Whether they understand that reality or not.

And in BT, surveillance requires proximity.


Only when those guys are, well, around, in-universe.
But even during those days, intel organizations in-universe tended to courier the bits of info they really cared about.
Never mind that most of the time, it simply doesn't matter if C* knows. Even if we presume in-universe knowledge of the handful of times C* abused their knowledge, their list of interventions is incredibly tiny. So who cares if they can figure out this intel report on the goings on of this Marik Militia unit I've been observing? The canon list of C* abusing that kind of knowledge in some way can be counted on 2 hands. I doubt any intel agency has standing orders to avoid C*, the cost of that policy is too great given the penalty it imposes.


99.9% of IT people can't do that at all. That's a conceit of movies, same as having someone who's a "scientist" that is an expert in multiple fields. Just not a thing.
Now, you might get him to bitch about some blatant vulnerabilities that the brass just won't let him fix, which could prove to be some exploit some malware you have can attack, but that's not what you're talking about.

If there's going to be anyone who's an expert, it's going to be Comstar.  and as for vested interests, they do take payment from everyone including the people you're intent on spying on.

one of the most fundamental truisms of intelligence, is that any source or route you can't control, is by definition unreliable and open to compromise.  This would include any service that can read your mail or e-mail, and has a reason to do so.

and comstar DOES have a reason to do so-in part to make sure your messages arrive intact, but that means they get a look at your encryption methods over time, and human beings are creatures of patterns...and anyone 'professional' in a responsible position would have to KNOW that to do their job.

Thus, by definition, your agents-in-place are limited value items with at best unreliable reporting-because there's no hard guarantee that the unsecured method by which their reports are arriving *(and your orders are traveling) hasn't been altered, edited, or "Lost".

the sole and only 'reliable' method of communication, is one that your faction completely controls. 

95

Aerospace Combat / Re: Fleet Recon

« Last post by Paul on 16 May 2024, 20:04:57 »

Yes you can insert a satellite like that and hoover up all sorts of intel but it has the problem of then that information is not useful until it gets back to your mission planers, which are going to be in a different system 99.999999% of the time.

Since the conceit of the setting is Black Boxes and HPGs are not that common(and for the later are not under your nation's control in most cases) that means that you have some decisions to make on how to make that information actually useful.

Yep, you're going to have to come by to pick up the data periodically, unless the vehicle doing the gathering is itself a K-F vessel like a Buy-Eye or something trying to work like one.

Deploy the satellite on a long slow coasting trajectory, maybe a couple others to do line of sight communications around celestial bodies, and have a controller ship sitting say about 30 AU out.

Communications delay will be a few hours by that point but done right no one would even notice it when the intel ship jumped in or out and the satellites could easily go unnoticed for years.

Sure, that's a solid plan. (Also at those distances, you'd need few, if any satellites to avoid LOS issues, which is a plus)

I think the real problem is that in BT, the amount of info you'd be able to get from such a network is puny.
Beyond aesthetic decision, one problem is those LOS comms: your opponent is using that as well. So if yours doesn't leak enough to reveal the spy satellites operating normally, the hostile LOS comms will also go undetected by them.
Another consideration: canon detection ranges are extremely tiny. So even passive observation of routine traffic requires some pretty intense proximity to the main travel routes.

With regards to doing recon in a solar system, there simply is no stated known way to pull it off even if you have the entire SLDF fleet trying to cover 1 solar system.

96

Aerospace Combat / Re: Fleet Recon

« Last post by Paul on 16 May 2024, 19:57:38 »

which is the bulk of your intelligence gathering and analysis, really. 

Yes, I said that.

Thus, why you don't rely on any single method or source. 

Then we seem to agree that pirate points aren't irrelevant when contemplating fleet recon.

There are huge gapes or 'conceits' in the universe simply because of the blind-spots of the creators.

Sure. And sometimes it's because they want a certain aesthetic; something to be true in-universe regardless of reality. Whether they understand that reality or not.

And in BT, surveillance requires proximity.

One more thing back to the Recon issue:  Your HUMINT is limited not only by access to an enemy's infrastructure, but also by the fact your agents are handing their reports to a third party government for transmission, and that third party government has a vested interest in crippling your efforts.

Comstar.

Only when those guys are, well, around, in-universe.
But even during those days, intel organizations in-universe tended to courier the bits of info they really cared about.
Never mind that most of the time, it simply doesn't matter if C* knows. Even if we presume in-universe knowledge of the handful of times C* abused their knowledge, their list of interventions is incredibly tiny. So who cares if they can figure out this intel report on the goings on of this Marik Militia unit I've been observing? The canon list of C* abusing that kind of knowledge in some way can be counted on 2 hands. I doubt any intel agency has standing orders to avoid C*, the cost of that policy is too great given the penalty it imposes.

Talk to an IT guy, and feed him some drinks, and when he's good and buzzed, ask him if there's anything that goes through his servers he can't, with some dedicated effort, crack right down to the machine code.

99.9% of IT people can't do that at all. That's a conceit of movies, same as having someone who's a "scientist" that is an expert in multiple fields. Just not a thing.
Now, you might get him to bitch about some blatant vulnerabilities that the brass just won't let him fix, which could prove to be some exploit some malware you have can attack, but that's not what you're talking about.

97

General BattleTech Discussion / Re: Upcoming Releases XXIX: First Annual 29th Birthday

« Last post by Liam's Ghost on 16 May 2024, 19:57:20 »

I am contemplating working an Urbie-LAM into my budget for next month. A have a powerful desire for the 40th anniversary boxes as well, but those are harder to justify.

98

Off Topic / Re: What are we Reading Now: Conan the Librarian

« Last post by Liam's Ghost on 16 May 2024, 19:53:47 »

Just finished reading "A City on Mars" by Kelly and Zach Weinersmith
Subtitle: Can we settle space, should we settle space, and have we really thought this through?"

Great for if you want to take your most idealistic dreams of near-term space settlement and throw a huge bucket of cold water on them. (also if you want an overview of the real challenges currently facing space settlement)

99

Ground Combat / Re: The Value of an AC/2

« Last post by Cannonshop on 16 May 2024, 19:46:52 »

I have had a couple of occasions where I have had some AC2 nick me with a CT TAC and take out my gyro.  very irritating.

That's what I'd call 'the bonus' rather than the point of the weapon.  The 'point' of the weapon, is to cheaply degrade an enemy unit's capability at long enough range that by the time he can shoot back, he's vulnerable in ways he didn't expect to be when he dropped onto the field.

If you've ever run an "Ironman" series of engagements, where the only thing you can restock between sessions is ammo, this becomes readily apparent.  Pre-existing damage to elimination can really highlight  how 'lesser weapons' can become decisive advantages.

100

Aerospace Combat / Re: Fleet Recon

« Last post by Lagrange on 16 May 2024, 19:41:51 »

For fleet recon, maybe the following approach?

(a) Model "97" Octopus + Scout jumps in very far out.
(b) Octopus attaches to Scout as a tug and accelerates at 0.5g inbound while Scout recharges from fuel (using extra fuel from Octopus as necessary).
(c) Octopus releases a number of recon satellites.  Satellites spread out.
(d) Octopus reattaches to Scout's dropcollar and coasts at high delta-v using passive sensors only through the system.
(e) Satellites transmit all info to coasting Octoscout.
(f) Octoscout runs into a jump point at high speed and jumps out to the fleets location.

At the moment of the jump, the Octoscout has as good of a picture as is feasible in the volume around the jump point.