What If...The United Hindu Collective...

[Medron Pryde]

...did not join House Davion after the Davion Civil War?

How could a United Hindu Collective as border nation between the Federation and the Concordat have changed history?

I'm interested in your thoughts.  :)

[cray]

...did not join House Davion after the Davion Civil War?

How could a United Hindu Collective as border nation between the Federation and the Concordat have changed history?

I'm interested in your thoughts.  :)

Don't have many thoughts yet, but the Collective was pretty thoroughly embedded in the Federated Suns. There were still quite a few Davion systems adjacent to the Concordat. Further, FS-TC friction started centuries before the Federated Suns Civil War that led to the Collective joining the Suns.

One would hope that the Taurians act a bit saner, knowing there's a neutral power near them that the Suns isn't molesting.

Though running forward with this timeline a bit, where does the Collective stand with respect to the Star League? The Suns and Concordat had a rough start, but it turned foul with the Reunification War and the award of the - was it the Pleides Cluster? - to the Suns. That canon territorial conquest was sufficient to ensure another 500 years of conflict between the Suns and Concordat.

Now throw in the Collective.

On one hand, what if the Collective joins the Star League? While it has shown union-minded attitudes in its canonical alliance with the Suns, if it refused the Suns but joined the Star League it would be, hands down, the smallest member-state by a factor of 6-8 after the Hegemony. The flip side is, if it refuses the Star League the Collective is also the smallest anti-League state. I think there's a good case to be made that it'd join the League, better than an anti-League case. I'm not sure what's going to happen here - will the Collective help invade the Concordat? That won't better Suns-Concordat relations, it'll just make the Concordat more paranoid of the Inner Sphere. Will it be a beacon to the Periphery states of the value of joining the League? Author input is needed.

On the other hand, a resistant Collective is a solid opponent for the Star League on par with at least the Magistracy. But the end result of its defeat is to sour the Concordat against the Suns, I think.

In short, I'm not sure. There's too many unknowns. I think at best you can say the Concordat would be a little less paranoid about the Suns.

[Medron Pryde]

You make some good points, many of which I was thinking myself.  Them being heavily "embedded" by Federation interests for a long time.  Tentativa and Malagrotta I'm looking at YOU.  ;)

Your idea that they could join the Star League while not joining the Davions is a mindjob and something I did not consider.  And frankly, ideas like that are why I wanted to ask if anybody else had an idea cause that one is COOL.

So, as an additional question, IF they chose to remain apart from the Federation, but joined the Star League, how would something like THAT change the future?

[cray]

So, as an additional question, IF they chose to remain apart from the Federation, but joined the Star League, how would something like THAT change the future?

I...don't know.

The Hindu Collective is an unprecedented situation for the Star League because it's so...tiny. And that raises lots and lots of questions.

I mean, the Houses pretty much received equal voices in the High Council, other than the first-amongst-equals Hegemony. They were pretty much the same size, too, other than the smallish Hegemony, which made up for it's physical inadequacies with a powerful military, more powerful economy, and big, fast cars. So, the "one House, one vote" system worked.

Then there were the Periphery nations, which joined with a boot on their neck. If they ever got votes in the Star League as something other than "wards of the state," I don't think it's well attested. So, those potential examples of small states having a say in the Star League...aren't examples that can be used to judge the Collective.

So. Cameron's putting together the Star League in the 2550s-2570s. The Houses are convinced one by one and hear that the Hindu Collective is on board...how do they react to the idea of 17 planets having a voice equal to their hundreds of worlds? Do they care? Does the Star League coin a US- or Terran Alliance-like "Great Compromise" that gives voting wait based on planets/population/wealth?

Thinking about this...I find the former unlikely. The House Lords won't like the precedent of little states matching their say on the High Council. What happens if some other little state joins, like a Periphery nation colonized during the course of the Star League? At the time of the Star League Accords' signing, it wasn't clear what the Periphery states would do - join, sit-out, get conquered? Those are four more relatively small/weak nations that would have an inordinate voice under "one nation, one vote."

The alternative - some form of proportional representation, be it a US-like bicameral "Star League Congress" or a unicameral "High Council" with weighted votes - so radically changes the Star League that it makes any further prognostications difficult. The dynamics and scheming of the Houses will be changed by the new rules.

The conquered Periphery nations may find themselves with some de jure representation on the Council, albeit weak because they're, well, small (and, if it matters, poor). But how do the Periphery states react in the long run to that? An excuse to rant against the League and try to throw spanners in the works? Do they simply get pissed because the huge weight of House votes tramples them as the Inner Sphere exploits the Periphery? Or do the Periphery states gradually become "part of the system" in the Star League and get over the whole "brutal conquest thing"?

There are a lot of plausible outcomes and no precedence to really go one direction or another. Feel free to pick amongst them.

[Guardsman]

Thinking about this...I find the former unlikely. The House Lords won't like the precedent of little states matching their say on the High Council. What happens if some other little state joins, like a Periphery nation colonized during the course of the Star League? At the time of the Star League Accords' signing, it wasn't clear what the Periphery states would do - join, sit-out, get conquered? Those are four more relatively small/weak nations that would have an inordinate voice under "one nation, one vote."

When the Magistracy of Canopus, Outworlds Alliance, Rim Worlds Republic, and Taurian Concordat were extended the offer of membership, was it as a one state, one vote, or something else? I’ve always wondered why the Great Houses thought that membership was a good idea, while the Periphery did not, beyond the natural periphery attitude of telling all comers to get stuffed.

Also, much of what you’ve said about the United Hindu Collective could be said for the Principality of Rasalhague (or according to A Time of War, the first Free Rasalhague Republic). According to House Kurita (The Draconis Combine), Rasalhague, whatever it was called at the time, remained a free, independent, and neutral state right up until 2510, which isn’t terribly far from the Star League era.

[Stormfury]

The Periphery States were all basically created for one of two reasons; paranoia (hello, TC) and/or because they did not want to have any kind of authority above them.

Give them a couple of centuries for those attitudes to cement themselves in the minds of the civilians, and any overtures from someone that wants to have a position of authority over them is not going to be taken well, even if it offers unimaginable economic prosperity and technological uplift.

[cray]

According to House Kurita (The Draconis Combine), Rasalhague, whatever it was called at the time, remained a free, independent, and neutral state right up until 2510, which isn’t terribly far from the Star League era.

The critical difference being that the United Hindu Collective was offered to freely join the Federated Suns, while Rasalhague was brutally conquered by the Combine. Extending Rasalhague's life into the Star League era requires significant changes in history, like Kuritans less bent on conquest.

[Medron Pryde]

I wonder, should the United Hindu Collective join the Star League and be treated fairly, if the other Periphery Realms would see that and realize that perhaps the Star League could be worked with?  That would of course depend on what kind of voting rights and representation the United Hindu Collective (and all of the Periphery Realms in canon) were offered.

If the rights and representation offered the Hindus were...mutually beneficial and they reported these facts to the other Periphery Realms...I could see the other Periphery Realms looking at their own offers with a far different mind.  I would think the Magistracy and the Outworlds would join easily if it was proven that Terra had some honor.  The Rim Worlds would probably be pragmatic enough to do the same.  The TC, with their dealings with the slaving Capellans and Davions, would be the least likely to agree.  However, the Hindus were their neighbors, which would give them a better chance of talking the TC over the line.

ANOTHER interesting question, is whether there WOULD have been a Terran War of Aggression in the first place if the majority of the Periphery Realms joined the Star League of their own free will.  It would depend I think on the voting rights, but if two or three Periphery Realms, plus the Hindus, joined, it would not be too difficult to stop the vote for the war all together.  The Houses supported the war because they would be able to capture new systems.  If House Davion was the only one who had that option, because the other nations had joined, I would think the Kuritans, Mariks, Liaos, and Steiners would vote against helping them as a matter of policy.

Even a possibility where only the Magistracy, Outworlds, and Hindus joined, that would leave only the Steiners and Davions with a chance for getting territory.  The Kuritans, Mariks, and Liaos I would think would vote against a war, unless they could get one heck of an advantage out of the matter of course.

And even if the Rim Worlds and the Taurians remained independent, a peaceful Star League neighbor would in the end absorb them by simply being a good and powerful neighbor.  And the people would see how good things are on the other side of the fence with Star League technologies and would want to be a part of that.  In the end, neither nation would have any choice but to join or be left behind.

The interesting thing about these ideas is that they rest on exactly ONE question.

What membership and voting rights would be offered to the United Hindu Collective, and the other Periphery Realms?

I don't know if the upcoming book about the War of Terran Aggression is going to go in depth about that, but I am MOST interested in seeing if it does.  :)

[cray]

I would think the Magistracy and the Outworlds would join easily if it was proven that Terra had some honor.

Wasn't the Magistracy mostly formed in the 26th Century to resist Inner Sphere predations?

ANOTHER interesting question, is whether there WOULD have been a Terran War of Aggression in the first place if the majority of the Periphery Realms joined the Star League of their own free will.  It would depend I think on the voting rights, but if two or three Periphery Realms, plus the Hindus, joined, it would not be too difficult to stop the vote for the war all together.

That's entirely reasonable.

And even if the Rim Worlds and the Taurians remained independent

The Rim Worlds required conquest because its leaders were excessively toadying, corrupt tools who pandered too obviously to the Star League. I think that in the more favorable scenario described here that the Rim Worlds population would be less restive about the Star League.

The Star League's first war might be helping the downtrodden people of the Rim Worlds be free from the Amarises. :)

What membership and voting rights would be offered to the United Hindu Collective, and the other Periphery Realms?

What suits you?

BT has the example of the Terran Alliance, which started out giving fairly equal voting rights and then shifted to "more wealth = more votes" following the Osaka Accord. This technique has left a negative impression in BT history, since it proved so abusive. The Collective would probably not approve this, though the Houses would generally see no problem with it.

BT also has the ill-described system of the Terran Hegemony, which had a "high council" built around the Director-General and some handpicked cabinet members, plus a general "Terran Congress" that gave representation to member-planets. So the First Lord gets a small High Council and significant proportional representation (based on population alone, I'd suggest) rests in a...Star League Congress?

Or you could borrow the US's Great Compromise: give fixed representation (one nation, one vote?) in one chamber, and proportional representation in another chamber. This lets the House Lords strut their stuff while they get additional clout through puppets in the lower chamber who are nothing but mouthpieces for the House Lords. (Figure the Accords allow the Houses to pick their representatives as suits the House: the FWL might try voting, while the others just stuff their seats with puppets.)

My vote: go with the third option. It's probably simplest to figure out its impacts and is more plausible than the first.

So, with that sort of representation, the Periphery states and Hindu Collective will find their greatest voices in the upper chamber. They're prone to being steamrolled in the lower chamber because of their tiny representation, but they hold a significant block of votes in the upper chamber to torpedo House shenanigans. Better give the First Lord some veto power so the Inner Sphere Houses don't panic about domination by Periphery micro-states. OTOH, the Periphery states will be in a pretty good position to benefit from the Star League and sway its direction.

I don't know if the upcoming book about the War of Terran Aggression is going to go in depth about that, but I am MOST interested in seeing if it does.  :)

I know nothing! about that.

[Medron Pryde]

I have to admit, I never expected a discussion about the United Hindu Collection would go this way.  It is a most interesting thought exercise is it not?  ;)

[cray]

I have to admit, I never expected a discussion about the United Hindu Collection would go this way.  It is a most interesting thought exercise is it not?  ;)

It is interesting. And the potential impacts are wide open. In fact, with a sort of Congress or Parliament for the Star League, the entire history of the League will be quite different. If even some of the Periphery states join, every event that canonically occurred in the Star League is no longer plausible. You get to write a new Star League history from scratch.

[Guardsman]

Wasn't the Magistracy mostly formed in the 26th Century to resist Inner Sphere predations?

The Magistracy of Canopus was formed in, going from memory here, 2530, by a former Marik officer who was upset at some of the wrongs dealt to her by the Free Worlds League, and their general bias towards male officers.

The Rim Worlds required conquest because its leaders were excessively toadying, corrupt tools who pandered too obviously to the Star League. I think that in the more favorable scenario described here that the Rim Worlds population would be less restive about the Star League.

The Star League's first war might be helping the downtrodden people of the Rim Worlds be free from the Amarises. :)

You forgot to mention that those excessively toadying, corrupts tools who pandered too obviously to the Star League had been removed from power. Katherine Dormax was President of the Rim Worlds Republic during the Reunification War and it was the Star League Defence Force that restored House Amaris to power. Ironically, the Star League Defence Force would presumably restore House Dormax to power. Lucien Dormax became President during Aleksandr Kerensky’s occupation.

[bigmac]

Cray nailed it with the impact that the United Hindu Collective would have on the Star League.  If they had join the Star League, the nation would have been too small to be allowed to sit on the High Council.  If the Collective had opposed the Star League, they would have been overrun by the massive auxilliary corps and naval forces that the Federated Suns loaned to the SLDF in the Reunification War.  The Collective was defended only by the Messangers of Shiva (a heavily reinforced battlemech regiment of possibly 5 battalions with significant aerospace support of possibly two to three wings).

For a good example of comparison, think about the Outworlds Alliance and Illyrian Palatinate.  The probably reason that the Alliance sat on the council after the war was because of the size of the Alliance and the additional fact that the Alliance raised 4 battlemech regiments (Avellar Guards, Santiago Carabiniers, Pitkin Lancers. Alliance Grenadiers), at least one conventional regiment (Alliance Borderers) during the Reunification War along with the Pictcairn Legion of 3 battlemech regiments.  The Illyrian Palatinate was formed during the mid-24 century but only consisted of 4 worlds.  The Palatinate was not mentioned at all because it consisted of 4 worlds.  More than likely, the Palatinate was easily overthrown by a small Marik task force escorted by a couple of warships to coerce them into the Star League.  The Palatinate was definitely part of the League since the SLDF ran a battlemech repair facility on Illyria.

[cray]

You forgot to mention that those excessively toadying, corrupts tools who pandered too obviously to the Star League had been removed from power.

That's what I meant: canonically, the Amarises pandered so much to the Star League (among other infractions) that they were removed from power.

In the non-canonical situation posed above, the Amaris interest in the League may not result in their deposition because the public will side with the Amaris foreign policy, at least initially. However, the Amarises are still douches and thus the first conflict the Star League is involved in is to remove the Amarises from power, installing Dormax or someone else more palatable.

[Guardsman]

That's what I meant: canonically, the Amarises pandered so much to the Star League (among other infractions) that they were removed from power.

In the non-canonical situation posed above, the Amaris interest in the League may not result in their deposition because the public will side with the Amaris foreign policy, at least initially. However, the Amarises are still douches and thus the first conflict the Star League is involved in is to remove the Amarises from power, installing Dormax or someone else more palatable.

Careful who you call a douche, if I ever get my way, remnants of the Rim Worlds Republic will be the next big BattleTech plot . . . it’s a good thing I’m never going to get my way.

[Kit deSummersville]

We all get Herb's way.

[Guardsman]

Pax Herb Vobiscum!