Author Topic: A Freebirth Question ?  (Read 2262 times)

JAMES_PRYDE

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A Freebirth Question ?
« on: 28 April 2023, 08:13:50 »
We know that Mechwarriors can have Freeborn offspring, I think I remember reading in a shrapnel story that there was a freeborn of Elemental descent, as she was "bigger", but a question popped into my mind at work today, can the Aerospace Phenotype actually have a "freeborn" offspring too ?

Angrii

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Re: A Freebirth Question ?
« Reply #1 on: 28 April 2023, 08:21:54 »
I don't see why not. Elementals are as far from baseline humans, and in some ways further, than Aerospace phenotypes so it stands to reason that it's possible.
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Kerfuffin(925)

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Re: A Freebirth Question ?
« Reply #2 on: 28 April 2023, 08:32:24 »
Ghost Bears don’t use the aerospace phenotype at all, so freeborns would probably do fine.
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AlphaMirage

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Re: A Freebirth Question ?
« Reply #3 on: 28 April 2023, 08:41:09 »
Certainly they could, they are just slightly smaller than baseline humans but that's still a broad range

Alan Grant

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Re: A Freebirth Question ?
« Reply #4 on: 29 April 2023, 06:04:16 »
Can they? Sure. As others have already said they aren't that different from regular humans in terms of size. I'm looking at something that says a lot of pilots are around 1.7 meters tall. I absolutely know people in real life who are that height or even shorter.

Where we really run into potential problems is within this question/issue...

Are elemental fetuses and newborns bigger than baseline human norms and can a non-elemental woman carry that to full term and give birth naturally? That's the actually tricky question, to me anyway.

It's very possible that a lot of mothers who are going to have a baby with some elemental genes in the mix may need to give birth through a Caesarean section before that baby gets just TOO big.


The Wobbly Guy

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Re: A Freebirth Question ?
« Reply #5 on: 29 April 2023, 06:58:05 »
Imagine an aerospace phenotype female carrying a foetus from her own and a male elemental's genes... and the kid takes after the dad. :-[

Well, there's always caesarian, and I bet clan medical tech has the ability to 'incubate' premature babies to term.

Decoy

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Re: A Freebirth Question ?
« Reply #6 on: 29 April 2023, 07:10:14 »
My mother once told a story of a Boston Terrier that got pregnant by a Great Dane. A C-section was involved, IIRC.
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Re: A Freebirth Question ?
« Reply #7 on: 30 April 2023, 00:08:40 »
I keep wanting to dive into this question with my experience with livestock, different breed characteristics, and whatnot. That feels like taking it about three steps too close to real world connotations for anyone's comfort, though, so I digress from that line of thought.

However, given how much Clan culture is driven by the literal production of living beings, I'd imagine that any testdown Aerojock phenotypes who were pregnant would have their pregnancy documented and watched as closely as could be expected, and that they would probably be paired with a physically compatible partner for the purpose of child production. I'd further postulate that any "whoops" moment between, say, an Elemental laborer and an Aerojock merchant that resulted in pregnancy would probably be very, very closely watched for viability and survivability of the mother. It would be dangerous and wasteful not to.
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BaldDen

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Re: A Freebirth Question ?
« Reply #8 on: 03 May 2023, 17:27:27 »
I'd further postulate that any "whoops" moment between, say, an Elemental laborer and an Aerojock merchant that resulted in pregnancy would probably be very, very closely watched for viability and survivability of the mother. It would be dangerous and wasteful not to.
Inter-caste ties, as in the RL, are extremely condemned in the clan society. This "oops" could only be rape, because merchants are above laborers.

Alan Grant

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Re: A Freebirth Question ?
« Reply #9 on: 03 May 2023, 18:31:34 »
I'm very intentionally setting aside the rape remark (yes rape is a crime, I'm sure it is punished, no doubt about that in my mind). I'm moving a little past it though because, yes, that could theoretically happen in a manner akin to what you described, but your statement that it "can only be rape" is not accurate. For at least two reasons I'll touch on throughout this post.

The Clans only care about who is sleeping with who if it results in children.

The book Warriors of Kerensky, page 52. The lower caste of the Clans sleep around.. a lot.... by many of Inner Sphere standards. According to that book they are just as likely to walk up to a virtual stranger and ask if they'd like to couple, as they are to attempt any kind of seduction. By Inner Sphere standards Clansmen are very promiscuous.

Most lower caste members have arranged marriages, and those individuals are expected to have children with that arranged spouse. But the Clans really don't care who else that person is coupling with, unless it results in children. So that could very easily mean individuals from different castes, coupling just cause they can, because they work and/or live in close proximity. It's never been clear that coupling between different castes is taboo. The warriors do it frequently enough, many a named canon freeborn warrior has parents of different castes.

What is never been made clear is what happens at that point. If birth control fails, if there is a pregnancy. Let's assume this was consensual (for discussion's sake) but birth control measures failed and a pregnancy resulted.

I'd be curious to know what the punishment is for those two individuals. I'm sure they'd continue with the pregnancy, because the Clans, especially back in the Homeworlds, wanted their people popping out babies like crazy. I'm also recalling all those random pregnancies that resulted in individuals who would become freeborn Clan warriors one day (i.e. Diana Pryde). But I feel like there would be some kind of punishment for those individuals who violated their marriages. That to me has always been an unanswered question about the Clans.

Oh and BTW, caste roles vary tremendously. It's a bad assumption to assume all merchants are above all laborers. Each caste has 25 grades.

A grade 23 laborer might be a caste leader, head of all laborers on a Clan enclave or planet, akin to a manager with a big office and very nice quarters by laborer standards. That merchant, Grade 1, might be a minor scheduler of interstellar transportation living in a tiny apartment. Akin to a ticketing agent at an airline. As the merchants oversee non-millitary interstellar transportation among the Clans. Between two such individuals, the laborer would appear to be the superior, by several metrics.
« Last Edit: 03 May 2023, 18:38:10 by Alan Grant »

Minemech

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Re: A Freebirth Question ?
« Reply #10 on: 03 May 2023, 18:37:03 »
Removed.
« Last Edit: 03 May 2023, 18:41:43 by Minemech »

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Re: A Freebirth Question ?
« Reply #11 on: 03 May 2023, 18:53:51 »
We know that Mechwarriors can have Freeborn offspring, I think I remember reading in a shrapnel story that there was a freeborn of Elemental descent, as she was "bigger", but a question popped into my mind at work today, can the Aerospace Phenotype actually have a "freeborn" offspring too ?

To keep this on task.
The answer is Yes.
Unless I'm mistaken, Elson Novacat was a free born elemental from Wolf Pack novel captured by the Dragoons on Luthien.
Nothing has ever said that 1 phenotype can breed but others can not.


From Peri's example & the Wolf Brothers, it seems the answer is, the Men can, but Women "can't", at least until they have some sort of minor surgery to reverse whatever it is they do to Clan females in Sibkos to stop them from getting pregnant as they come of age & experiment with other sibko members.

The whole self administered nature of how she reversed the process has always screamed "Norplant" or some derivative to me, something hormonal just under the skin.

My question is did she have to do that because it was so soon after she had left the Sibko & so it was still "active" or do they eventually fade over time?
I also seem to recall Joanna or Marthe monologue about distaste at the thought of pregnancy or large breasts or something.
It makes me think that whatever is done in the Sibko that long term warriors either keep going back for treatments or the duration is extremely long.

Given Aiden was able to get Peri pregnant & the Wolf Brothers were born as well, I have always gotten the impression that whatever it is, its not something that the males go through.   Maybe it was the era of the books, I think that was sort of new back then, but it just gave off the impression of Norplant-3050 to me.  Safer, longer duration, etc.
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tassa_kay

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Re: A Freebirth Question ?
« Reply #12 on: 03 May 2023, 19:39:29 »
I believe "Flight of the Falcon" makes mention of Clan women using "long-term contraceptives", but it's never given any more detail than that.
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Hellraiser

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Re: A Freebirth Question ?
« Reply #13 on: 03 May 2023, 21:57:05 »
Yeah, most of my thought on it is that she had to do something to herself to fix it.
Clearly it wasn't invasive surgery, but also not something as simple as stopping a pill.
The implant also solves the issue of having to bring medication on missions & yet based on current technology, updating it every 5ish years would allow for them to make the conscious decision should they change castes/test out or develop feelings for a single partner outside the caste or whatever.
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Colt Ward

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Re: A Freebirth Question ?
« Reply #14 on: 03 May 2023, 22:46:03 »
Are elemental fetuses and newborns bigger than baseline human norms and can a non-elemental woman carry that to full term and give birth naturally? That's the actually tricky question, to me anyway.

Yes, we also get a freeborn . . . Wolf? descendant IIRC on Skye who is part of the militia, gets very sensitive when someone says something about his mother.
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BaldDen

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Re: A Freebirth Question ?
« Reply #15 on: 04 May 2023, 15:52:44 »
Alan Grant
1 It seems to have been in the WoK that even in the lower castes, birth is regulated through the appointment of a specific partner. A couple can live "for love", but children can be from different fathers.
2 Scientists, merchants use the same birth control devices as warriors.
3 Peri and Aiden were 18-19 years old at the time of Diana's conception. IMHO Peri was scheduled for the birth of a child from someone from the management of the scientific station where she worked, but then Aiden appeared  ;).
4 A 23 grade laborer and a 1 grade merchant is a misalliance and chalcas, where a laborer tries to assert himself due to superiority over a representative of a higher caste.

Generic Clanner 24601

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Re: A Freebirth Question ?
« Reply #16 on: 04 May 2023, 22:18:44 »
Icons of War mentions Garmen's birth control implant failing and Satinka's being removed after she failed out of the sibko. The way it is phrased about Garmen's failing ("somewhere in the six years...") makes it seem like it needs to be checked out every so often or it the risk of it failing increases.

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Re: A Freebirth Question ?
« Reply #17 on: 04 May 2023, 22:25:05 »
Interesting that they have a male version for Garmen.
I mean, yes, "about time".
But that throws the whole Aiden thing about him having one.
Maybe it was skipped over & after he was sent down to the tech caste it was removed.
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Re: A Freebirth Question ?
« Reply #18 on: 04 May 2023, 22:26:46 »
1 It seems to have been in the WoK that even in the lower castes, birth is regulated through the appointment of a specific partner. A couple can live "for love", but children can be from different fathers.
2 Scientists, merchants use the same birth control devices as warriors.
4 A 23 grade laborer and a 1 grade merchant is a misalliance and chalcas, where a laborer tries to assert himself due to superiority over a representative of a higher caste.

1.  I thought WoK said they get paired up if they have not found someone by a certain age?
2.  Where is that from?
4.  Where is all this 25 grades thing & your theory that the castes would never mingle from?
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Generic Clanner 24601

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Re: A Freebirth Question ?
« Reply #19 on: 04 May 2023, 22:33:21 »
Interesting that they have a male version for Garmen.
I mean, yes, "about time".
But that throws the whole Aiden thing about him having one.
Maybe it was skipped over & after he was sent down to the tech caste it was removed.

I just assume once you pass your Trial of Position, it's on you to make sure you take care of that. Since it doesn't affect a man's ability to fight, they probably tend to be more careless about the upkeep.

Or the upkeep could be mandatory for women, but not for men as an unofficial way for Clans to get freeborn warriors without actually encouraging it. Of course, a Clan like Steel Viper that doesn't use freeborn warriors would be mandatory for both sexes in this case.

And it likely varies Clan to Clan.

EDIT:

1.  I thought WoK said they get paired up if they have not found someone by a certain age?

If I recall, it's less they wait until a certain age, it's just that if you find someone before they get to you, they'll usually just give you an OK. You're lower caste. They don't care too much.
« Last Edit: 04 May 2023, 22:35:47 by Generic Clanner 24601 »

Alan Grant

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Re: A Freebirth Question ?
« Reply #20 on: 05 May 2023, 06:09:53 »
The thing about the lower castes having 25 grades comes from Warriors of Kerensky. Page 59 is one page where this is explained but its not the only reference to it in the book.

Grade determines access to everything, what quality housing, medical care, and all the other stuff of life. As well as the Clan version of currency, how much of that they get, which they can hold for a period of time before the Clan takes it back. WoK talks about that as well.

I don't agree that there would be no intercaste socializing/mingling (i.e. coupling). I have never seen anything in canon that calls that out as a no-no. I've looked.

There are a couple Clans that have quirks that might suggest this, like the Steel Vipers and their rigid internal structures and the Snow Ravens and their distrust of strangers. But aside from some Clan quirks like that, speaking more broadly about Clan society. I suspect there's lots of social mingling (and coupling.)

In some situations that would be extremely difficult to avoid. There are many situations where a team of people may consist of different caste members. For example a cargo-carrying dropship or a jumpship might have merchant captain and first officer, a crew consisting mostly of technicians, perhaps a medic from the scientist caste, and a couple laborer caste folks for the physical labor tasks. I think in that group there's lots of coupling going on, across castes. And I really don't think the Clan cares, unless there are resulting children.

And I don't think that's restricted to spacecraft. A food production facility run by the Clans. I can see a few merchants in charge (or at least handling bringing in the raw materials and shipping out the produced KerenskyOats cereal), a work force of technicians and laborers, and a few scientist caste individuals, some with more medical training providing a medical staff on-site or at the closest medical facility, others more literally scientists/researchers some doing quality control testing, or whatever else. All in the same rooms, in the same buildings or in the same neighborhood, working side by side. Spending a lot of time together both on the clock and not.

BaldDen's perspective puts some big walls up between the various castes. In his version they have a hierarchy, they do not intermingle socially and coupling is a huge no-no.

That or BaldDen's sticking point is just the power dynamics between two individuals and whether one person is effectively taking advantage of the other, abusing their power, that may be what BaldDen is really getting at, and some version of that, I could see, sure. Someone abusing the power dynamic to get coupling to happen when that other person isn't interested but feels obligated because of that person's power. Aff that could certainly be a thing, and would be bad. Since some percentage of the human race are jerks (IMO) sadly it probably does happen.

But a lot of BaldDen's examples and argument hinge on caste power. They feel very much like just because one person is off the merchant caste, and the other is of the technician caste, one has power (and power that can be abused) over the other. Just like that.. that alone is a enough to create a big enough power differential between those two individuals that if they are coupling, it's abuse, 100% of the time. And I don't agree with that. I do think it's possible for some merchant and some technician of similar grade, doing different jobs/tasks centered around making KerenskyOats at the factory, working in the same place, looking at each other and seeing a peer or near-peer individual, both sweating in the same facility. I do think that's very possible and commonplace in a lot of situations.

And in that situation, I believe coupling happens and it isn't a misalliance, it isn't chalcas.

But if you don't agree with that, that's fine. I am extrapolating. I can't put a finger on a canon line of text from a book that specifically proves the point. I'm taking what canon tells us and drawing conclusions. Someone else could draw different conclusions. I've had many conversations with fellow Clan fans over the years where there are just some sticking points where we can't find consensus and I've learned to try to be ok with that.
« Last Edit: 05 May 2023, 06:58:49 by Alan Grant »

GreekFire

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Re: A Freebirth Question ?
« Reply #21 on: 05 May 2023, 07:52:53 »
If I recall, it's less they wait until a certain age, it's just that if you find someone before they get to you, they'll usually just give you an OK. You're lower caste. They don't care too much.

Correct.

Quote
I don't agree that there would be no intercaste socializing/mingling (i.e. coupling). I have never seen anything in canon that calls that out as a no-no. I've looked.

WoK p.36 does mention how marriages are arranged between individuals in the same caste, and cross-caste marriages usually result in one of the individuals being transferred to the other's caste. Now, how this meshes with the above if an interesting question; if they rubberstamp random, unarranged marriages, then it's entirely possible that you would end up with a high-grade merchant and low-grand laborer ending up together.

The biggest emphasis is put on how one absolutely *must* respect one's obligations towards mandatory marriages, which presumably includes having children with one's partner.
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Colt Ward

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Re: A Freebirth Question ?
« Reply #22 on: 05 May 2023, 09:17:58 »
We get a look at that with . . . IIRC a laborer or tech from the MWDA novel about Vega.  He had his 'Clan' family and his 'love' family.  And when he was transferred to Vega as support, the Bears did not give a rip about the chosen/love family, they remained behind on whatever world and the POV was certain he would never see them again.

Honestly, WoK as a source is almost as bad a the old Objective Raids.  Oddly enough, IIRC the most we get on lower caste Homeworld interactions comes from the Jaguar and Falcon perspectives- Huntress during Horse's time, then before & after TF Serpent's invasion.  With the Falcons we get Peri's being on Ironhold during Diana's Trial of Bloodright where she is working to discover the truth about the Scientist conspiracy.

So the super-strict Jags, on their capital world & city have divided the city into caste 'quarters' and when it comes to socializing there is limited mixing in the quarters- IIRC one of the PCs searches out a bar in the . . . tech? quarter b/c they produced better booze.  Before & after TF Serpent IIRC, the lower castes were not mingling due not to rules but habits at that point.

For the Falcons, we are not told Ironhold is divided like Lootera was in those books.  Peri at one point goes bar hopping to find . . . Nomad?  Aiden's old tech.  While she may go to bars more likely to have techs, it is not as segregated as the Jaguar holding.
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Alan Grant

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Re: A Freebirth Question ?
« Reply #23 on: 05 May 2023, 15:30:30 »
Correct.

WoK p.36 does mention how marriages are arranged between individuals in the same caste, and cross-caste marriages usually result in one of the individuals being transferred to the other's caste. Now, how this meshes with the above if an interesting question; if they rubberstamp random, unarranged marriages, then it's entirely possible that you would end up with a high-grade merchant and low-grand laborer ending up together.

The biggest emphasis is put on how one absolutely *must* respect one's obligations towards mandatory marriages, which presumably includes having children with one's partner.

Ooohhh you are right. WoK Page 36-37, and above that it talks about the punishment of flagrantly disregarded arranged marriages. It says fines are the usual penalty, but that chemical reprogramming, torture and even execution are not unheard of, Phelan notes that the Wolves never instituted the most severe penalties, suggesting this may vary by Clan. So that answers that, probably mostly fines. I'm guessing the harsher stuff are like the repeat offenders and the people who seem to be very flagrantly ignoring or challenging what is essentially eugenics for the lower castes, when arranged marriages occur. And you just don't mess with the Clan's eugenics program(s).

Prior to that in the book it does say cross-caste marriages do occur, with one individual usually changing castes in the process.......

.......That's actually really interesting, because I've seldom seen a way to move from caste to caste mid-adult life, and that provides one.

I feel like that would be really useful for a character idea or story idea.

The Wobbly Guy

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Re: A Freebirth Question ?
« Reply #24 on: 06 May 2023, 21:33:58 »
The point about power imbalances leading to forced coupling is probably more prevalent than not.

After all, Joanna did it to Aidan.

So while there're probably rules against it, there will also be a lot of other factors at play determining whether the perpetrator gets punished.

Low grade laborer on anybody? Sure.

Ristar mechwarrior on a lowly tech? They might even tell the tech they should feel honoured. For the warrior, a warning and surkai, if any, would just be a very minor one.

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Re: A Freebirth Question ?
« Reply #25 on: 14 May 2023, 02:21:52 »
Would the scientist caste experiment with genetic mixing between the castes with the intent of finding improvements? Any mixed pairing could offer possibilities. As I give this question some extra thought
I'm guesssing experiments of this nature would be extremely frowned upon and like only happen if someone went "mad scientist."

Thank you to anyone who talked about caste changing. :) I still have much to learn regarding the lore. I thought switching castes was something that the "not named clan" did
and was part of what got them into trouble.

Ghost Bears don’t use the aerospace phenotype at all, so freeborns would probably do fine.
In general, does Clan Ghost Bear treat their freeborns better than other clans would. Their strong sense of family has me thinking they are.
Also, I'm guessing the have more freeborns that most clans.

A grade 23 laborer might be a caste leader
Reminds me of the bureaucrats from Futurama.  ;D
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Kerfuffin(925)

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Re: A Freebirth Question ?
« Reply #26 on: 14 May 2023, 02:48:40 »
Things like the Society might. They did all kinds of unauthorized experiments.

Then in modern times they have the Mystic (whoever has visions), TankWarrior (elemental and mechwarrior), and Elstars (more serious genetic mods rather than selective breeding). Mixing across phenotypes is happening more often.

Clans assign marriages at lower castes, or used to anyway, but that’s more like a rubber stamp. So they aren’t really monitored unless one of the offspring goes on to become a freeborn warrior (and I’d wager most of those are from cast off warrior parents).

Ghost bears are probably one of the best for freeborns, although that’s not really saying a lot. And DD makes it look less so.
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