Author Topic: Clan-Specific Trials of Position, any new info? (Read 11804 times)

Akalabeth · « **on:** 07 March 2011, 14:37:40 »

For those of you who read all the fiction and sourcebooks that hit the shelves, has any new information surfaced on clan-specific trial of positions above and beyond that presented in Warriors of Kerensky?

What I know is:
The general practice is for a warrior to fight 3 opponents, one weaker, one equal and one stronger in that order. Netting a point commander(aka warrior), star commander and star captain ranks respectively.

Wolf differs in that you get a heavier mech against 3 lighter opponents simultaneously?

Steel Vipers differ in that sibko mates fight each-other.

Jade Falcon I believe differs in that you fight an opponent outside of your mech before you actually get in.

Several clans, 4 or so allow for multiple trial of positions. Among those, Blood Spirit, Hell's Horses, and can't remember the others.

So anyone, question is. Is there new info on what the specifics of what various clans do? And if so where would I find it?

Thanks in advance.

Guardsman · « **Reply #1 on:** 07 March 2011, 14:50:04 »

Off the top of my head, Clan Ghost Bear allows you to retrain and retrial in a different service branch. Khan Bjorn Jorgensson failed as a MechWarrior, but succeeded as an AeroJock. He pilots a Kirghiz, because it's the only Fighter he can fit inside.

Stormfury · « **Reply #2 on:** 07 March 2011, 15:08:36 »

Clan Smoke Jaguar allowed for a second Trial of Position, IIRC to join a second-line command.

Clan Wolf places the cadets in an Assualt 'Mech rather than the usual medium or heavy.

The Jade Falcons send four Cadets to each trial rather than two and the first stage is a combination race/hunt/survival trek to the 'Mechs.

SteveRestless · « **Reply #3 on:** 09 March 2011, 14:41:18 »

is there support beyond the phelan and natasha trials to say that the wolves give the cadet an assault mech?

Stormfury · « **Reply #4 on:** 09 March 2011, 15:59:17 »

Yep. IIRC, MWGttC and the Field Manuals also have it in.

I personally find it ridiculous that a culture requiring less-experienced warriors to pilot lighter machines in a Clan that focuses so heavily on the lighter, faster machines would be putting their cadets in Assaults, but it is what the books say.

I would have written it off as Phelan and Natasha re-qualifying as warriors rather than applying it to cadet Trials as well, but that's not the rote they went.

joechummer · « **Reply #5 on:** 09 March 2011, 23:30:42 »

Quote from: Akalabeth on 07 March 2011, 14:37:40

Steel Vipers differ in that sibko mates fight each-other.

If I'm not mistaken, this is only the first part of a Steel Viper's Trial of Position. Two sibkin are pitted against each other; the winner goes on to take a standard 3-'Mech Trial of Position while the loser can take a second ToP to test into conventional infantry ranks.

My reasoning is this: If the winner of the sibkin-on-sibkin combat resulted in attaining a warrior rank, not only does this not test the mettle of a candidate by pitting him or her against an equal or greater opponent, but if you only have one opponent, you can only defeat one opponent and thus can't obtain a rank other than MechWarrior. So as far as I can tell, for each slot in a Trial of Position, two sibkin essentially fight a Trial of Possession over the spot, and the winner fights in the actual Blooding.

joechummer · « **Reply #6 on:** 09 March 2011, 23:36:57 »

Quote from: Stormfury on 09 March 2011, 15:59:17

I personally find it ridiculous that a culture requiring less-experienced warriors to pilot lighter machines in a Clan that focuses so heavily on the lighter, faster machines would be putting their cadets in Assaults, but it is what the books say.

I'd go with survivability here. If cadets are always pitted against warriors who are much better than they are and have heavier 'Mechs and better weaponry, then you're just going to end up with a lot of dead cadets and no replacement personnel for your Touman, and your military capability is going to suffer. I think each Clan has a way of balancing the scales so that SOME cadets will always graduate, even if it's only one or two per sibko (Vipers and Spirits, I'm looking at you 8)).

Alan Grant · « **Reply #7 on:** 10 March 2011, 00:29:26 »

Also, the Trial of Position really doesn't reflect upon training or assignment in mech class. They aren't putting you in a light mech for your ToP to further your education.

The idea is, whether or not to make you a warrior, and if so, of what rank. Sibko training prior to that, and unit training after, instills in you whatever you need to know to pilot your assigned mech, whatever class it may be.

Personally I've always felt like the Clan Wolf ToP was designed to make it a little easier. Since you are driving an assault mech, you should have enough padding (armor) and firepower, to make a few mistakes and still win against your first opponent. But unless you truly mop the floor with him, you'll take some damage in the process, if you take a lot of damage in that first fight, and your second opponent has an easier time taking you down.

That doesn't mean Clan Wolf warriors are less skilled. Personally I think it means they put less emphasis on their Trial of Position as the evaluation of a cadet's abilities. I suspect Clan Wolf sibko training is pretty tough, and if you make it to the ToP stage, it's because the Instructors have signed off on you and declared that you have the guts and ability to be a Clan warrior in the eyes of the Clan (if they don't think you'll survive a ToP, you get relegated to a lower caste). The ToP is proof positive, but also the end-chapter of one part of your life. After that, you step into the role of a warrior and you still have to prove yourself and improve your abilities. If you don't, you end up in a secondline unit on the slide down early in your career.

All of the above about Clan Wolf putting less emphasis on the ToP is just my opinion, not stated in any canon source. I just offer another perspective to look at it.

Decoy · « **Reply #8 on:** 10 March 2011, 00:47:40 »

Apparently, the Clan Coyote trial places the cadets in an assault while the vets use heavies.

WarMonkey · « **Reply #9 on:** 10 March 2011, 01:22:33 »

I wonder if all of the Jade Falcon ToP's use Summoners.
Ravill Pryde talked in one of the novels( I forget which one :-[ ) about using a Timber Wolf, but Aidan, Horse, and Marthe all used Summoners.( although Horse and Aidan/Jorge couldn't modify theirs because freebirths were not allowed to ) Does anyone have any more info on it?

Decoy · « **Reply #10 on:** 10 March 2011, 04:50:54 »

I would imagine it's what's limited to the trial site and to the preferences of the Cadet. Diana used a Hellbringer, for instance.

wantec · « **Reply #11 on:** 10 March 2011, 13:16:05 »

In the Dark Age, Alaric Wolf uses a Blood Reaper in his ToP, against a light (Hellion), a heavy (Mad Dog), and an assault (Jupiter).

Guardsman · « **Reply #12 on:** 11 March 2011, 00:47:04 »

Isn't Alaric Wolf the genetic son of Victor Steiner-Davion and Katherine Wolf (nee Steiner-Davion)?

Stockus13 · « **Reply #13 on:** 11 March 2011, 10:03:07 »

Yes he is indeed.

But he is Alaric Ward. :)

Guardsman · « **Reply #14 on:** 11 March 2011, 12:21:50 »

Quote from: Stockus13 on 11 March 2011, 10:03:07

Yes he is indeed.

But he is Alaric Ward. :)

How is he related to . . . huh?

Stockus13 · « **Reply #15 on:** 11 March 2011, 12:23:51 »

Have you read A Bonfire of Worlds? If not that book goes into details on Alaric. A few other Dark age books do as well.

Guardsman · « **Reply #16 on:** 11 March 2011, 12:58:19 »

Nah, I have most of the early Dark Age novels, but the last dozen or more were kind of spotty coming to my local book store.

Stockus13 · « **Reply #17 on:** 11 March 2011, 13:35:17 »

Well ABFoW is well worth buying and downloading online.

I do not want to spoil too much for you. It is a very good read!

Arkansas Warrior · « **Reply #18 on:** 11 March 2011, 17:32:05 »

Quote from: Decoy on 10 March 2011, 00:47:40

Apparently, the Clan Coyote trial places the cadets in an assault while the vets use heavies.

Do you have a reference for that? I'm not doubting, I'm just wondering where I missed it, this is new info for me.

Decoy · « **Reply #19 on:** 12 March 2011, 14:58:03 »

Huh. I can't find it. I guess the next thing to do would be to ask MDM and figure out where he found it....or light the Roosterboy Signal. Your choice.

Alan Grant · « **Reply #20 on:** 12 March 2011, 16:01:10 »

If it's relevant, the Cloud Cobras don't see their first Trial of Position until age 22. According to FM: WC, as a result they graduate a higher percentage of warriors.

Guardsman · « **Reply #21 on:** 12 March 2011, 16:10:49 »

Quote from: Alan Grant on 12 March 2011, 16:01:10

If it's relevant, the Cloud Cobras don't see their first Trial of Position until age 22. According to FM: WC, as a result they graduate a higher percentage of warriors.

Kind of like the difference between hockey players (drafted at 18) and basketball / football / baseball players (often drafted after university).

Alain Yanez · « **Reply #22 on:** 12 January 2012, 23:12:22 »

I don't recall where I saw it, or, to which Clan it applied to, but, I seem to recall that one Clan's trial involved the cadet facing units of increasing weight. (Someone correct me here if I am misremembering.)

Also, I remember for the Snow Ravens that Naval Commanders utilize simulators for their trials because naval vessels are too expensive to risk in a trial.

BirdofPrey · « **Reply #23 on:** 13 January 2012, 08:10:58 »

Quote from: Guardsman on 07 March 2011, 14:50:04

Off the top of my head, Clan Ghost Bear allows you to retrain and retrial in a different service branch. Khan Bjorn Jorgensson failed as a MechWarrior, but succeeded as an AeroJock. He pilots a Kirghiz, because it's the only Fighter he can fit inside.

Could have swore he was a elemental that got shifted to ASF piloting.

Quote from: Alain Yanez on 12 January 2012, 23:12:22

I don't recall where I saw it, or, to which Clan it applied to, but, I seem to recall that one Clan's trial involved the cadet facing units of increasing weight. (Someone correct me here if I am misremembering.)

That's just the standard procedure. 2 cadets take turns fighting agaist 3 opponents each. The first is lighter weight class, the second is the same, and the third is in a heavier mech. Your rank is determined by how many opponents you defeat.

Any errant shots that strike a bystander (ie. anyone but the two mechs fighting at the moment) gives everyone weapons free and it turns into a free-for-all.

Stormfury · « **Reply #24 on:** 13 January 2012, 21:25:28 »

Quote

Could have swore he was a elemental that got shifted to ASF piloting.

Nope. MechWarrior. He flunked out of MechWarrior training and re-tested as an AeroSpace pilot. FM: WC, p. 87.

Ironically, his predecessor (who he defeated in a Trial after Aletha Kabrinski called a vote of no confidence) was Karl Bourjon, a warrior who hails from an ASF lineage and was described as being physically weaker than Jorgensson, who called for augmented combat and faced Bjorn in a 'Mech. (Side note: the Bears were yet to be written as not employing the ASF Phenotype).

Alain Yanez · « **Reply #25 on:** 16 January 2012, 10:17:42 »

A question related to this, how would the trail of postition look for an Elemental? Does anyone have any information on that? I wouldn't think they would test as a point, but, that is just me.

CoffiNail · « **Reply #26 on:** 16 January 2012, 10:32:19 »

For an elemental it would be the Elemental vs three already Warrior Elementals. 1 on 1 fights. Just imagine how many Elementals come out of their ToP missing a limb.

Archangel · « **Reply #27 on:** 16 January 2012, 12:53:26 »

Quote from: Alain Yanez on 16 January 2012, 10:17:42

I wouldn't think they would test as a point, but, that is just me.

Obviously it would vary from Clan to Clan but some Clans might test points since Elementals are supposed to work as part of a team but then we only have Elson Novacat's Trial of Position with Wolf's Dragoons to work off of. The Clans' version would probably be more dangerous if not deadly.

Stormfury · « **Reply #28 on:** 16 January 2012, 18:35:30 »

All descriptions for Elementals (and ASF pilots) have them facing three opponents each and being tested in pairs.

Alain Yanez · « **Reply #29 on:** 16 January 2012, 20:55:03 »

Quote from: Archangel on 16 January 2012, 12:53:26

Obviously it would vary from Clan to Clan but some Clans might test points since Elementals are supposed to work as part of a team but then we only have Elson Novacat's Trial of Position with Wolf's Dragoons to work off of. The Clans' version would probably be more dangerous if not deadly.

So, if they test as a Point, do you think they would pass/fail as a point, or would there be some measure to sort out the exceptional from the weaker Elementals?

Stormfury · « **Reply #30 on:** 17 January 2012, 01:27:37 »

No Clan tests Elementals in Points; see p. 13 of FM: CC or p. 16 of FM: WC, both of which state that two warrior cadets are tested at a time against three opponents each. This is regardless of service branch.

Archangel · « **Reply #31 on:** 17 January 2012, 10:43:19 »

Quote from: Stormfury on 17 January 2012, 01:27:37

No Clan tests Elementals in Points; see p. 13 of FM: CC or p. 16 of FM: WC, both of which state that two warrior cadets are tested at a time against three opponents each. This is regardless of service branch.

That is the "standard" Trial of Position but both Field Manuals (FM:CC p17, FM: WC p18) also state: "Many Clans have altered the standard Trial of Position to better suit their training system." From altering the number of opponents a candidate faces to the environment anything is fair game in the Clan's drive to produce the best warriors possible. For example, the Jade Falcons have their cadets face off against unaugmented foes before they reach their machines while the Steel Vipers have their cadets face off against sibmates. Major events can force a Clan to implement temporary changes to its ToP, such as when Khan Marthe Pryde used real combat on Coventry in lieu of a standard Trial of Position.

Stormfury · « **Reply #32 on:** 17 January 2012, 10:57:52 »

Yes, but such things are exceptions to the rule. Where a Clan departs from the standard Trial of Position- Ghost Bears allowing retraining in another field, Hell's Horses allowing a vehicle retrial, and so on they are all noted in the FM entry for that Clan. Even the Jade Falcon and Steel Viper practice still only results in two cadets facing three opponents each once the Trial proper starts. I mentioned the departures from the straight-up Trial already.

There are no such references to any difference for any Clan about varying the basic Trial protocol for the Elemental phenotype.

victor_shaw · « **Reply #33 on:** 23 July 2015, 18:00:27 »

I would think, follow the progression of the other phenotype that elemental points would face 1. Freebirth Inf Platoon 2.Point of Elementals 3.then a mech

Nav_Alpha · « **Reply #34 on:** 23 July 2015, 18:41:45 »

The Wolf's Dragoons example seemed to revolve around the unit getting enough points - meaning they had to work together or everyone failed, regardless of individual efforts.
Although, if you die it appears you flunked out, according to Wolf Pack

Empyrus · « **Reply #35 on:** 23 July 2015, 19:11:50 »

A bit old thread, but interesting one.

Tangentially related, are Clan Warriors trained to specialize in mech classes? Many times it seems that they're not since the Clan assigns a mech for a warrior. No doubt they're all trained for all classes (like the Jade Falcons using Kit Foxes during training).
Yet, for example, light mechs are quite different from assault mechs, requiring different tactics and thinking.
Perhaps a Clan evaluates warrior's skills and style and assigns a mech based on that?

I wonder because in Path of Glory, Mechwarrior Zane uses a light mechs (a Jenner IIC 2 and a Pack Hunter) and works in a light mech star. Obviously, he could have been assigned to a light mech because of skill-set as i suggest above.

(Perhaps more odd about Zane is the fact he uses a second-line mech despite being a trueborn, and it is more or less clearly stated this was the case before the Nova Cat's Abjuration. Naturally he could have been from a poor bloodline thought more fitting to a second-line unit, or perhaps the Nova Cats had equipment shortages, no Omnis for all trueborn. I believe he fantasized about a day when he would be assigned an OmniMech?)

Archangel · « **Reply #36 on:** 23 July 2015, 20:31:24 »

An extremely old thread.

Quote from: victor_shaw on 23 July 2015, 18:00:27

I would think, follow the progression of the other phenotype that elemental points would face 1. Freebirth Inf Platoon 2.Star of Elementals 3.then a mech

Highly doubtful. The cost of them succeeding greatly outweighs the benefit to the Clan. Even if 5 inexperienced elementals could somehow beat 25 experienced elementals, you are talking about a star and a half of military strength being damaged/destroyed/killed (not to mention quickly running through the number of available freebirth cadets/warriors) in exchange for a single point of military strength graduating (assuming of course they all survived).

BTW who would be in charge? After all this is their FIRST Trial of Position which is meant to help determine at what rank they enter the touman.

victor_shaw · « **Reply #37 on:** 24 July 2015, 06:36:24 »

Quote from: Archangel on 23 July 2015, 20:31:24

An extremely old thread.

Highly doubtful. The cost of them succeeding greatly outweighs the benefit to the Clan. Even if 5 inexperienced elementals could somehow beat 25 experienced elementals, you are talking about a star and a half of military strength being damaged/destroyed/killed (not to mention quickly running through the number of available freebirth cadets/warriors) in exchange for a single point of military strength graduating (assuming of course they all survived).

BTW who would be in charge? After all this is their FIRST Trial of Position which is meant to help determine at what rank they enter the touman.

sorry just noticed that it should be a Point of Elementals, its been corrected

and I would think they would fight in a circle of equals for the right to command of the Star before the trial stars.

victor_shaw · « **Reply #38 on:** 24 July 2015, 06:45:27 »

Quote from: Archangel on 23 July 2015, 20:31:24

An extremely old thread.

not to mention quickly running through the number of available freebirth cadets/warriors in exchange for a single point of military strength graduating (assuming of course they all survived).

We are Taking about Truebirths vs. Freebirths here, to put it another way How cares.
The Falcons use Freebirth Inf as cannon fodder for there Mechwarrior trials why would they care if they died fighting Elementals ?

victor_shaw · « **Reply #39 on:** 24 July 2015, 06:52:31 »

Now Heres how i would handle it.

1. Point fights 5 Freebirth Infantry hand-to-hand without armor.
2. Point fights 5 Elementals Both sides without armor.
3. point gets to battle site donning armor then try's to take on a light mech.

Archangel · « **Reply #40 on:** 24 July 2015, 23:49:26 »

Quote from: victor_shaw on 24 July 2015, 06:36:24

and I would think they would fight in a circle of equals for the right to command of the Star before the trial stars.

Uhm...wouldn't that then be their initial Trial of Position? Not to mention I have never heard of a ToP involving 5 individuals fighting for the same position at the same time.

Quote from: victor_shaw on 24 July 2015, 06:45:27

We are Taking about Truebirths vs. Freebirths here, to put it another way How cares.
The Falcons use Freebirth Inf as cannon fodder for there Mechwarrior trials why would they care if they died fighting Elementals ?

Plenty of people. The entire Smoke Jaguar and most of the Steel Viper warrior castes who were both adamantly opposed to permitting freebirths into their respective warrior castes in the first place. Not to mention the fact that an infantry platoon is comprised of 28 infantry (or at least 4 sibkos which is most if not all the sibkos training at a secondary training facility) not 5 infantry and wouldn't leave few available for other ToPs.

Quote from: victor_shaw on 23 July 2015, 18:00:27

I would think, follow the progression of the other phenotype that elemental points would face 1. Freebirth Inf Platoon 2.Point of Elementals 3.then a mech

The Falcons used a single freeborn sibko in a trial not 4+ sibkos. Smaller Clans or individual Kindraa would find it extremely difficult coming up with sufficient freeborn trainees especially if one is holding multiple trueborn trials at once.

Quote from: victor_shaw on 24 July 2015, 06:52:31

Now Heres how i would handle it.

1. Point fights 5 Freebirth Infantry hand-to-hand without armor.
2. Point fights 5 Elementals Both sides without armor.
3. point gets to battle site donning armor then try's to take on a light mech.

You are making a huge assumption - that enough members of a single sibko would qualify for their initial ToPs to fill an entire point. Wouldn't it make more sense for them to hold individual ToPs like the other warrior types rather than trying to adjust the ToP to accommodate the number of potential sibko graduates?

Not to mention that few Clans have the resources to spare for the initial ToPs for what many consider a secondary phenotype. After all, the same resources would also be needed for other internal Clan trials as well (other ToPs, Trials of Grievance, Bloodright Trials, etc).

To fill a single Elemental star, you are talking about the Clan losing at least a star of elemental warriors and a star of 'Mechs (lights possibly even mediums if no lights are available) plus the potential risk of losing the MechWarriors to injury or death as well. The losses are likely to be even greater to account for losses among the sibko points during the trials. Likely end result of your proposed scenario: Your Clan is losing double (if not more) the military strength it gains for each elemental star filled with new sibko graduates.