Intra-planet redeployment?

[Elmoth]

hello all,

I have the nagging suspicion that I asked this like a year or 2 ago, but my forum-fu is weak and I cannot find it. So here comes the rant and question.

Dropships are not that common. They are expensive and designed to be able to do interstellar travel. All well and good. Now, mechs are also uncommon (pre-clans where everything loses its elan, chivalry and worthiness :P), and sometimes need to cover a large area. When you move 4/6 or so and the attack is 1000 km away (a short distance by planetary standards) the raid is probably over by the time you get there. That would make mechs less than ideal to cover a continent worth of assets, let alone a continent or planet. A lot of planets do not have that good rail or road infrastructure either that allows high speed (in the hundreds or thousands of MPH speed). So....

Do we have any kind of intra-planet transportation (probably air transport) that deploys mechs and is NOT a dropship? I thought this would be common for small planets, but I might be wrong.

Or maybe dropships are very common and they just use a Union of the 3 or 4 that they have laying around to hop to other places in the planet like you take a cab to a party. meaning that I am wrong about the availability of dropships in the IS and that they are relatively common.

Thanks,
Xavi

[Ruger]

Technical Readout Vehicle Annex has several examples of large support transports of several varieties: cargo aircraft, airships, trains, surface ships and submarines. Some of these are purpose-built aircraft carriers, which could indicate such a design specialized as a ‘Mech carrier.

DropShips would be another option, and perhaps more likely and rapid than the others mentioned above (especially as the latter would mostly move ‘Mechs as cargo, whereas a ‘Mech carrying DropShip would likely have special designed ‘Mech bays).

Ruger

[AlphaMirage]

I think dropships are far more common than we think.  The only real limit on mobility in universe we ever see is in Jumpships. 

Any large developed planet probably has a Leopard or Aurora for use by the militia.  That said I think the decentralized nature of planets on Battletech works against such a thing.  Any target worth attacking is protected by corporate defense units and the Local noble's troops. 

If there are National forces on planet they have a dropship and access to a rail hub.  A good raid is probably over by the time they get in motion however and the Leopard is not a pursuit unit.

[Elmoth]

Since early detection systems should be common if you are fielding mechs for defence, I would assume that the leopard or similar loaded with your rapid reaction forces is airborne and waiting to see where the enemy raiding party lands, so no need for a Leopard pursuit.

[Colt Ward]

You might also look back a few months for the topic on colony development.  We discussed historical colony placement and growth along with how a colony on a planet would grow . . . but if the thread is TLDR, then the summary was that for most colonized worlds all the important parts are going to be pretty centrally located- capital/spaceport/industry for example with resource development spread on the rest of the world.  So control 10% of the planet- like for example, Australia's coasts with the cities (and not even all the coast)- and you have de facto control of the rest of the world . . . so why station forces that far away?

[Elmoth]

That is something perfectly understandable. And I tend to agree with that statement. However, Australia is still quite big of you hsv who movie around at 5/8 to intercept someone outside your municipality.

[Colt Ward]

Oh yeah, in the analogy an invader does not even hold the Outback and it might be considered hostile territory even if the planet is 'under' the control of a new power.  It was more that the things worth defending are concentrated- heck the lower down the value chart the more likely everything anyone cares about is co-located in one specific place.

[Daryk]

Even sub-orbital flight times beat pretty much everything else... DropShips are the sine qua non of truly planetary defense.  Nothing else is even remotely affordable.  Heck, it even explains the insane cost multiplier for them...

[dgorsman]

You generally have a good idea of where the raiders are heading i.e. paying attention to status reports on industry, reports on pirate activity, intelligence alerts, and so on.  A clever defender might make an educated guess where they will land and try to ambush them on the way back or threaten the DropShip to keep them occupied.

And in many cases military raids (and pirates in some cases) in the 3025 era it doesn't matter if they ground out in the middle of nowhere.  You're buttoned up, defending what needs to be kept safe, so they can run around all they feel like as that's just wasting time, food, and fuel.

[Colt Ward]

Even sub-orbital flight times beat pretty much everything else... DropShips are the sine qua non of truly planetary defense.  Nothing else is even remotely affordable.  Heck, it even explains the insane cost multiplier for them...

Except the problem that its a expensive basket you are placing the defending eggs in.  Its why I like small craft loaded QRFs- I can beef up the mech defenders at any location with less lost to a intercept of a small craft loaded with Scorpions and field guns.

[Daryk]

Small craft are just as fast as DropShips, but can't carry the weight...

[Colt Ward]

Depending on the design they could re-deploy with a Scorpion or two, some trailers, towed artillery, or infantry field gun platoons.  Its enough to shuffle assets between two points to beef up the mech defenders already present.

[Daryk]

Most things that fit in a 'mech cubicle will be able to hand that...

[Colt Ward]

I never said they could stand off- what I said was they would be able to supplement the on hand defenders.  Refinery X has a lance of mechs, company of medium armor and two infantry platoons as the ready garrison facing a raid by a Union . . . having FB-335 (support aircraft) or Small Craft bring in another lance of Scorpions, two towed Thumper artillery, and two platoons of AC/5 field guns from some more distant garrison point that does not have mechs assigned or is the QRF based at the capital would be enough for the defenders to put out a better defense without risking a DS to enemy air.

Enemy air hits a Union CC (because that is what was at the spaceport unloading cargo) and causes it to crash you are going to lose that Union along with 1800 tons of whatever gear you put on it.  You lose the dropship's load and you also weakened wherever you stripped that company of mechs, company of armor, and company of infantry you packed in as cargo.

[Elmoth]

If I am the defender I would assume that I would have a few conventionals supporting my union to prevent that, right. Conventional fighters are as good in atmo as ASF, and (even if they are more fragile) there tend to be quite a few more than ASF out there.

[SCC]

If I am the defender, I'm not going to be interested in moving less then a company, either of heavy armor or 'Mechs.

[Natasha Kerensky]

Do we have any kind of intra-planet transportation (probably air transport) that deploys mechs and is NOT a dropship? I thought this would be common for small planets, but I might be wrong.

This has been around TRO3026:

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Planetlifter

[Daryk]

Move "as cargo" is very different from "move operationally"...

[Elmoth]

Alàs, t'he planetlifter got nerfed in later publications. It cannot transport up to heavy mechs anymore.

[Jellico]

The 1800 ton DropShips are pretty much made for intra-planetary work. Small tactical units. No cargo capacity. No range.

Unions are more for planetary assault. Much larger unit carried.

Also try and remember the BT DropShips were created in a time of plentiful DropShips. That didn't last.

[Wolf72]

Move "as cargo" is very different from "move operationally"...

with any luck you are not moving into a active hot zone and can get a few hours (or less) to unload and deploy.  How long does it take? 1min per ton? How far out can you detect an enemy inbound/dropships?  Everything depends on flight times.

SC, even slow ones, can hit the upper atmosphere/space to get there faster (I think, that's how it works-ish)

Support fixed wing craft will probably take a lot longer, but if you know you have 4 days before a dropship lands, well then get to it! (most I was able to get in a 200t prop plane was 90+ tons, but that was cargo and Tech F, at lower tech rates 50-70-ish ranges ... but only moving 3/5 to 4/6)

[Colt Ward]

Unions are more for planetary assault. Much larger unit carried.

Also try and remember the BT DropShips were created in a time of plentiful DropShips. That didn't last.

Only the first part if you remember the second line- because something else is hauling what that company is going to need.

Wolf, the problem is you can concentrate to a degree but the raiders could hit somewhere you are not . . . basically defenders need to make them land a distance from the objective, keep them on the ground, and then they can shift forces to hit them.  If raiders can retreat to their DS and lift for a sub-orbital hop to a different target (like one you just stripped to assist other defenders) then you have problems.    So you can mobilize- get everything repaired/loaded/ready, call out the weekend warriors, disburse to tactical positions rather than stay in garrison, and evac areas near targets- but if you shift defending forces around too much then you offer a opening if they have a single observer present to relay the changes in garrison assignments.  The issue is the ever present attacker's initiative advantage in that they choose when & where to attack.

Which makes civil/economic planning of BT colonies interesting . . . Age of War, SW1 & maybe SW2 as infrastructure and war industry was built it was dispersed to prevent nukes and ortillery from getting too much at once but the late SW2 and SW3 slide the same sort of valuable targets would get centralized to allow defensive forces to remain concentrated.

[Wolf72]

well isn't that just crap-on-a-stick!

Invest more in planetary/national guard so all of your target centers can field a company or two of various infantry (PBI all the way to field guns & artillery).  Not sure if that'll be less than your own dropships and SC.

[SteelRaven]

Move "as cargo" is very different from "move operationally"...

You don't airdrop a Abrams Tank or a Apache Helicopter via C-17 but that's how you get it from one place to another other than under it's own power.

If you are looking for rapid deployment your options are limited to Dropships as you are asking for something akin to a flying aircraft carrier (which a dropship kinda sorta is) otherwise you will need to make concessions for smaller more conventional means such as aircraft and rail.

I'm not bashing the idea, it actually highlights the need for vehicles in TRO:VA and why so much industry is centered around drop-ports (same reason why so many real world cities are built around ports, convenience and access) but it also highlights why dropships are such a necessity in the BTU.

[Colt Ward]

You don't airdrop a Abrams Tank or a Apache Helicopter via C-17 but that's how you get it from one place to another other than under it's own power.

But you could a Sheridan tank, a HIMARs launcher, Avenger systems, and crew served weapon equipped Humvees . . . not sure about Strykers.  But forget airdropping- it gets practiced but its not really ideal.  You CAN load those systems on a plane ready to roll off and go into action with very little delay.  So loading a pair of Scorpions on a FB-335 at some mining post up in the mountains and flying down to the coastal city that has the spaceport and transportation hub where all the goods are gathered to go offworld (or imports in warehouses) where they unload.  Pop some straps, drive it off the plane, and then form up to drive to the sound of the guns.

[Hellraiser]

Cargo load/offload times is still a lot less than what would be needed to actually move a mech across the continent under its own or rail power.

Dropships even cargo ones, turn travel times of days into hours.

And even mid tier units like a "March Militia" are going to have some dropships around.
Maybe not a trio of Overlords but you can bet they have a spare Leo or Union for quick deployments in response to raiders.

Any planet able to pay for a regiment of heavy tanks like the common Manticore can also probably afford a single Gazelle to move a company around in a hurry.

[Daryk]

After one orbit, the defenders literally have no idea where the attackers are going to land.

That said, the Sniper Rifles TPTB just gave us in Shrapnel #1 finally transform every single infantry platoon into a real threat.  2-point groups of damage at a range up to (potentially) 7/14/21 should scare anyone who's ever taken a head hit or TAC...

[Colt Ward]

After one orbit, the defenders literally have no idea where the attackers are going to land.

That said, the Sniper Rifles TPTB just gave us in Shrapnel #1 finally transform every single infantry platoon into a real threat.  2-point groups of damage at a range up to (potentially) 7/14/21 should scare anyone who's ever taken a head hit or TAC...

Problem with that is that line infantry companies do not usually get equipped with snipers, like FOs, ATCs, engineers, and other specialists they would be assigned from higher.  Let's not also forget that Count Over von Bearing is not going to be thrilled with his militia being trained as snipers or sappers.

[Daryk]

I can only appeal to the real world here, where every Fire Team has a "Designated Marksman"...

[dgorsman]

... Count Over von Bearing ...

 :lol: