A Dark Age TW-to-AS conversion example?

[Nerroth]

One of the reasons why I'm looking forward to Alpha Strike is the potential for era-specific support; which I hope will extend as far as handling the Dark Age units to be showcased in Technical Readout: 3145.

However, I have been advised in other threads that the units in TRO:3145 Mercenaries are built to pre-existing design standards, and can be converted into AS/QS format already.

So, I was wondering if anyone familiar with the BT-to-QS/AS conversion process could spare a moment to give an example of how things are done, by taking one of the units included in the TRO:3145 preview PDF (such as the Hound or the Mad Dog/Vulture mk IV) and describing how one would adapt it into the more streamlined game system?

(I didn't want to ask about one of the units in the full file, so would prefer to stick with units which have been freely presented in the preview.)


Unless that process is kept "in-house" and is not meant to be shared on the forum, in which case I apologise and withdraw the question.

[nckestrel]

Yeah, though give me a while, currently reformatting my counter...
The stats will be on www.masterunitlist.info eventually.

[Nerroth]

Thank you kindly, and please take your time.

(While I'm looking forward to seeing these units added to the MUL, I was asking more to get a better sense of how each step of the process needed to get them there is carried out.)

[Alexander Knight]

Okay, since you asked, we'll cover the Vulture Mk. IV Prime

First is Type.  Well, that's obvious, it's a BattleMech or BM

Next is Size.  At 60 tons, it's a Size 3 Element.

Third is Move.  The Prime has no jump jets, so it has a move of 5 * 2 = 10"

Next is Armor.  Here's where we get into some interesting stuff with Ferro-Lamellor armor.  The Vulture Mk. IV has 201 points of F-L armor.  Normally 201 points translates to an Armor value of 7, but Ferro-Lamellor multiplies your armor by 1.2, giving us 241.2 (rounding up to 242) for an Armor value of 8.  Not bad.

Fifth, we have Structure.  A 60-ton 'mech with a Clan XL Engine has a Structure value of 3.  (Side note:  The Mad Cat Mk. IV with its XXL engine has a Structure value of 2)

Next is Damage.  Firsts we figure out how much heat the Prime builds.  With 2 ER SPL, 1 ER PPC, 4 SRM-6, and an LB-5X, the Prime can generate 40 heat at a running alpha.  With only 24 dissipation, even the basic -4 bonus will probably not prevent damage loss from heat.

What's more troubling is the fact that with only 7.5 shots for each SRM-6 launcher, the Prime fails to have sufficient ammunition for its missiles, reducing their damage output, but not their heat buildup.

So, Short Range Damage Value.  2*5.25 (ER SPL) + 4*6 (SRM-6s, downgraded for lack of ammo) + 15 (ER PPC) + 2.46 (LB-5X) = 51.96
51.96 * 24 (dissipation) / 36 (40 buildup - 4) = 34.64 for a Short Range Damage Value of 4

Medium Range sees the base damage increase by 0.69 for the LB-5X for a total of 52.65 * 24 / 36 = 35.1 for a Medium Range Damage Value of 4

Since Medium Range also determines the Overheat value, we notice that heat buildup reduced the Prime's damage from 6 (52.65) to 4 (35.1), for an Overheat Value of 2

Finally we have Long Range.  Here the Prime gets some luck.  Only generating 18 heat from the ER PPC and LB-5X, the Prime suffers no reduction in damage value.  So 15 + 3.15 = 18.15 for a Long Range Damage Value of 2.

PV is 2,110 / 100, rounded normally so 21

Lastly, we have special abilities.  As a BattleMech, the Prime gets SRCH, SOA, SEAL, and ES.  As an OmniMech, we can add OMNI to the list.  As a Clan 'Mech with explosive weapons, we can add CASE.  Finally, the Prime has enough SRM capability to gain the SRM special for alternate munitions (and be vulnerable to AMS).  24 base damage * 24 / 36 = 16.  This rounds normally for an ability of SRM(2/2).

All told, the stat line for this machine is:
                                               SZ     MV    A     S       SR   MR   LR    OV     PV                Specials
Vulture Mk. IV   Prime   BM   3   10"   8   3   4   4   2   2   21   SRM(2/2),CASE,OMNI,SRCH,SOA,SEAL,ES

[Nerroth]

Thanks for the run-through!

The one thing I was wondering about for this unit in particular is movement. The unit seems to be quite fast in QS/AS terms when compared to the A configuration of the original Mad Dog/Vulture. Is the Mk IV meant to be that much faster?


Also, if a less advanced unit (such as the Hound) were being run through the same process, some of the Clan-specific options wouldn't be added?

For example, the Hound wouldn't have its armour ratio adjusted, wouldn't include things like OMNI and CASE, and so forth; but would still get SRCH, SOA, SEAL, and ES on account of being a BattleMech.

[nckestrel]

He listed the movement in inches (10"), the MUL lists them in BattleForce hexes (5).
Its the same movement speed.  It's 2" to 1 hex.

The specials are dependent on what's on the unit.  If an IS unit is an omni or has CASE, it would get the abilities too.

[Nerroth]

Thanks again.

When it comes to special abilities, how far does the current range of QS/AS-supported options go?

For example, I noted that certain C3i-equipped units on the MUL (such as the Archangel Invictus) have unit cards done up, while those equipped with, say, Nova CEWS (such as the Osteon Prime) do not at present. Is this because rules governing the use of Nova CEWS in that scale do not yet exist (thus preventing cards from being generated for such units at this time), or are those units simply further back in the queue for QS/AS conversion?

And going forward, would any "new" options we may see in other TRO:3145 PDFs need the appropriate rules ported into the QS/AS game engine before the units requiring said options could get their own cards when the time comes?

[Alexander Knight]

Mainly, units from the War of Reaving are farther back in the Queue.

[Medron Pryde]

Um, one problem with the damage and heat thing is that the example above did not count heat generated from movement, or that maximum weapons fire for heat is counted at all ranges.  In this case though, it doesn't make a difference really.  BF3 stats are very general.  Also, it strips out SRMs as a separate damage stat, which DOES make difference.

The base Vulture IV has the following damage ratings.
2/2/2
SRM 2/2

So it can effectively do 4/4/2 damage, but the SRMs give it an impressive special capability if you wish to play with interesting ammunition selection.  :)

[Alexander Knight]

Um, one problem with the damage and heat thing is that the example above did not count heat generated from movement, or that maximum weapons fire for heat is counted at all ranges.  In this case though, it doesn't make a difference really.  BF3 stats are very general.  Also, it strips out SRMs as a separate damage stat, which DOES make difference.

One word.

Errata. :D

[Nerroth]

I recall reading that the Savage Wolf Prime is most akin to the Timber Wolf D.

Is there a particular configuration of the original Mad Dog/Vulture which the Mk IV Prime is based on; and if so, how does that unit's QS/AS stats compare to this one?

[Medron Pryde]

One word.

Errata. :D

One word.

Huh?

 :(

[Savage Coyote]

I recall reading that the Savage Wolf Prime is most akin to the Timber Wolf D.

Is there a particular configuration of the original Mad Dog/Vulture which the Mk IV Prime is based on; and if so, how does that unit's QS/AS stats compare to this one?

The Vulture Mk IV Prime is kind of the Mad Dog A, though the Vulture is missing a couple launchers if memory serves.  The Vulture Mk IV is superior for the most part as the Mad Dog has an armor/internal profile of 5/3 while the Vulture has a 8/3.  The Mad Dog A does 2/2/2 with 3/3/0 for SRM's, so it does an extra point of damage.  I can't comment on the OV values as Skunkwerks apparently has decided neither design can overheat for extra damage, which is of course false. 

The Vulture Mk IV D is also similar to the Mad Dog D.  The Vulture puts out 9/6/2 while the Mad Dog 8/6/2.  Vulture Mk IV wins hands down here assuming all of Skunkwerks calculations are correct as it's also a point cheaper at 23 to the Mad Dog's 24.  The moral of the story is:  ATM's are sledgehammers in Quick/Alpha Strike.

[nckestrel]

ATM's are sledgehammers in Quick/Alpha Strike.

So true.

[Nerroth]

Thanks once again.


One thing I noticed when digging through the BattleForce QSR pdf is that, while the bulk of the stats for each 'Mech element in the samples given line up with the appropriate Quick-Strike Unit Cards, the special abilities seem to be mostly absent. (For example, the Unit Card for the Mad Dog/Vulture C lists a number of special notes, while the same unit shown in the Alpha Trinary Fire Support Star on page 13 of the QSR file only has CASE listed.)


In the case of the Mad Dog/Vulture Mk IV, would the full range of special rules only be relevant in QS/AS, or are they all in play in BF too?

[Weirdo]

They're all relevant in Quickstrike and Battleforce. The reason they're missing from that pdf is that it's the quick-start version of Battleforce(not to be confused with Quickstrike), so it trims out a lot of special rules and abilities to speed up play.

[Nerroth]

Oh, okay.


So, to factor in the short and medium range adjustments, the unit stats (for either BF or QS/AS) would look like this?

-----       
                           
Vulture (Mad Dog) Mk. IV Prime

Type: BM 
Size: 3 
Move: 5/10"
Armour: 8
Structure: 3
S (+0): 2
M (+2): 2
L (+4): 2
OV: 1
PV: 21
Special: SRM(2/2), CASE, OMNI, SRCH, SOA, SEAL, ES

-----

EDIT: Adjusted to add in OV: 1 as per advice below.

[Alexander Knight]

Actually no.  If you split off the SRM damage, the OV value drops to 1.

[Nerroth]

Edited to add in the OV value (and to set it at 1, as per your advice).


What kind of variety of alternate munitions are there in this scale, and how much of a difference comes through from one type to another?

[Medron Pryde]

Actually no.  If you split off the SRM damage, the OV value drops to 1.

He's right.  I forgot the overheat there.  Silly me.  :)

[Alexander Knight]

One word.

Huh?

 :(

There is errata changing how damage is calculated coming up.  Effectively, alternate munition weapons (SRM/LRM/AC) are no longer calculated separately.  Neither are Turrets  (Eliminating the Scorpion Tank's ability to do 2 damage at Short range with just an AC/5 and a machine gun).

[Medron Pryde]

So it's going to simplify QS so it plays faster, huh?

Interesting.  I think I could like that.  :)

[Nerroth]

So, does this errata mean that the separate SRM(2/2) special rule will go away, and the numbers added directly into the short and medium range values; or am I missing something?

[nckestrel]

Wait for the errata to actually come out and it will say.
If its not published, it doesn't exist. (Review could change something, plans change, etc).
It's not published yet for a reason (or reasons).

[Nerroth]

There was one thing I was wondering, in light of talk about the kind of problems that existfor the kind of software needed to create BT record sheets; what template is used to create the BF/QS/AS Unit Card templates in the MUL and the unit card PDF sets, and is there any sort of problem with how that software works?

And is the template itself flexible enough to be expanded for use with larger units (such as WarShips), or would there need to be a new template drawn up in order to be able to handle such unit types?

[nckestrel]

With a lot of sweat and tears.

The current update we are working on is done by me using a spreadsheet that imports megamek files and after a couple days work converted some 4000 units or so.
It's about 85% accurate, ie. 15% of units have some stat wrong.
Alex Knight then goes and checks them.  Some of those we end up debating awhile.
Then we have a list.

That's pretty much how we did it originally as well, though before Alex Knight had done them all even before I ever started.

The MUL website and Quick-Srike card pDFs are pretty much the card image and the unit image with the stats from the list overtop of the boxes.

Right now (pre-upcoming errata mentioned above), SSW and SAW do a good job of converting.  If reoend using them to avoid having to do the conversions yourself.

[Nerroth]

I see.

So, are updates to the MUL on hold until after this coming errata comes into effect, or would the TRO:3145M units be so far down the list as to not be affected either way?

And would it be fair to assume what this errata will be incorporated into Alpha Strike by the time that book enters production? Herb mentioned in the latest BattleChat that the AS core rules were done, but I wasn't sure if this meant that the errata being referred to had already been factored in there or not.

[nckestrel]

Questions about unreleased products (what Alpha Srike will or will not have) can only be answered by Herb.  Though my guess is that it will be "whatever is ready at the deadline."

MUL BF stats are on hold since we're having to reconvert everything.  They'll all get caught up at once.

[Nerroth]

Understood.

Okay, so I downloaded SSW v.0.6.81, and had a go at doing a sample set of stats (this time, for the HD-2F Hound, another of the units in the PDF preview).

Apologies if I'm missing something obvious, but does the software have the unit card template included, or do you just get the (pre-errata) stats?

(As an aside, there doesn't seem to be an option in the Quirks list to account for the Hound's Accurate Weapon LB 10-X [AC].)

[nckestrel]

There are no rules for converting Quirks to BF.