Author Topic: Vehicle of the Week: Vedette  (Read 48853 times)

chanman

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3928
  • Architect of suffering
Re: Vehicle of the Week: Vedette
« Reply #90 on: 30 April 2012, 19:38:18 »
Strange that no one talked about the fuel cell version. I fell in love with the variant the moment i saw it.

It has a bombast laser, and I left it at that. See the 'Pimp a shitcan' section of the article.

Baldur Mekorig

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1261
  • Join the Brotherhood, our mechs are cuter!
    • My Facebook
Re: Vehicle of the Week: Vedette
« Reply #91 on: 01 May 2012, 10:34:03 »
Even if it mounts a Bombast Laser?!  :o

 I am talking about the LB-10X version.
Oh my brother, with your courage we can conquer,
In your sword I put my trust that you will honor
I will be the higher ground should you concede it
And my body be your shield if you should need it.

ANS Kamas P81

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13242
  • Reimu sees what you have done.
Re: Vehicle of the Week: Vedette
« Reply #92 on: 01 May 2012, 14:40:02 »
I am talking about the LB-10X version.
The current one runs an LB10 and 2 SRM2s.  Nice budget critseeker.
Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen,
Tod und Verzweiflung flammet um mich her!
Fühlt nicht durch dich Jadefalke Todesschmerzen,
So bist du meine Tochter nimmermehr!

va_wanderer

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 585
Re: Vehicle of the Week: Vedette
« Reply #93 on: 01 May 2012, 16:51:17 »
The current one runs an LB10 and 2 SRM2s.  Nice budget critseeker.

Yeah, the WoB Militia version. Which also happens to have a C3 slave built into it.

That kinda thing is often the last thing they expect out of your "budget tank"- having it feed a perfect shot for the rest of a lance, though you need a C3 master somewhere in there too.

chanman

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3928
  • Architect of suffering
Re: Vehicle of the Week: Vedette
« Reply #94 on: 01 May 2012, 20:16:39 »
Along with a rear-mounted SRM-2 and the original compliment of armour. It spots, it has a big gun, it's only moderately quick, and it isn't particularly well protected. Draw your own conclusions.  :P

glitterboy2098

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 12047
    • The Temple Grounds - My Roleplaying and History website
Re: Vehicle of the Week: Vedette
« Reply #95 on: 01 May 2012, 21:04:44 »
it's almost too bad combat vee's can't use the industrial mech variant armors. the Vedette is generic enough in concept to almost beg for a periphery cousin using commercial armor and a heavy rifle. i suppose if i want to use something like that i'm going to have to go read up on the support vee construction rules and just make something similar..

Trace Coburn

  • Starfighter Analyst
  • Global Moderator
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4310
  • За родину и свободу!
Re: Vehicle of the Week: Vedette
« Reply #96 on: 01 May 2012, 23:00:22 »
it's almost too bad combat vee's can't use the industrial mech variant armors. the Vedette is generic enough in concept to almost beg for a periphery cousin using commercial armor and a heavy rifle. i suppose if i want to use something like that i'm going to have to go read up on the support vee construction rules and just make something similar..
  PsyckoSama's written a rules-set for 'Primitive Vehicles', and converted some XTRO primitives using his rules; you can find the rules and a TRO of those conversions over here.  By definition, they're non-canon, but they're a lot more intuitive than the SV rules and meet the other standards you cite (including choice of armours, low-tech weapons, etc.)  ;)

Sami Jumppanen

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 541
Re: Vehicle of the Week: Vedette
« Reply #97 on: 05 May 2012, 03:18:02 »
I just wanted to drop my opinnion on that discussion on what changes would Ghost Bears do to their Vedettes:

If they are going to change them at all then it is the MG witch is swapped to the AP Gauss. This is why there is that full ton of MG ammo.

Sami Jumppanen

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 541
Re: Vehicle of the Week: Vedette
« Reply #98 on: 05 May 2012, 03:28:02 »
By the rules, Vedette has four crewmen. Driver, gunner, commander... what would 4th be?

If it is not the loader then it is the radio-operator/hull gunner. In scorpion tank Driver propably handles the MG and the radio and Gunner just works with the gun and looks out for the enemies when he isn't shooting anything. Not the most ideal arrangement specialy when the crew propably isn't all that well trained.

Moonsword

  • Acutus Gladius
  • Global Moderator
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 16596
  • You interrupted me reading TROs for this?
Re: Vehicle of the Week: Vedette
« Reply #99 on: 05 May 2012, 05:58:52 »
If they are going to change them at all then it is the MG witch is swapped to the AP Gauss. This is why there is that full ton of MG ammo.

...what?  If they were going to upgrade them with a cutting-edge weapon, they'd probably yank the AC/5 for an LB 5-X and get the tonnage free that way anyway.  Or just use Clan-grade LMGs to get the same performance as the MG at twice the range.

Sami Jumppanen

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 541
Re: Vehicle of the Week: Vedette
« Reply #100 on: 05 May 2012, 17:24:01 »
...what?  If they were going to upgrade them with a cutting-edge weapon, they'd probably yank the AC/5 for an LB 5-X and get the tonnage free that way anyway.  Or just use Clan-grade LMGs to get the same performance as the MG at twice the range.

Why not? Vedette has a few sensible uses and that AC isn't used for those (exept for the Flak duty). AP gauss on the other hand would be an improvement.

Gryphon

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 325
Re: Vehicle of the Week: Vedette
« Reply #101 on: 05 May 2012, 18:25:27 »
How commonly do the clans use special ammo types for autocannons? I mean, can they? All they have are LBX and Ultra, neither of which can use special ammo. Without that ability, leaving the standard AC on the tank makes somewhat less sense really, they might as well make the one in six investment to swap in a more commonly used and supported weapon instead of adding some sort of longer ranged anti-infantry capability instead.

If its fairly common for them to do so, maybe producing the special ammo types for the Ghost Bear second line units, than it might even be worth it to retain the older gun instead. Though I lean towards fitting a light autocannon instead, and maybe some more armor, ammo, or a second MG. All of these options would be fairly economical and technically viable really.

(I will be polite and not mention the RAC/2 option again...)  O:-)

va_wanderer

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 585
Re: Vehicle of the Week: Vedette
« Reply #102 on: 05 May 2012, 20:59:15 »
Actually, there's the Protomech ones, that do use a few. Flak and tracer ammo anyway, after the last TacOps errata.

Gryphon

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 325
Re: Vehicle of the Week: Vedette
« Reply #103 on: 05 May 2012, 23:53:37 »
Ah, excellent point, i had in fact forgotten about them. *Looks at Sarna real quick*

The PMAC/2 is somewhat pointless, at least here, while the PMAC/4 is almost useable here, at least in pairs.

The PMAC/8 is actually pretty decent, especially in a paired mount if it will fit. You would need at least 2 tons of ammo that way, 3 in a paired mounts. A single mount with 20 shots would be 7.5 tons, which is not bad really. A twin mount with 30 or 40 shots would weigh 14-15 tons or so...hmm, no, a bit heavy there really, and enough outgoing damage to draw entirely too much attention.

Do Protomech ACs have access to all types of specialty ammo? (I am goign to have to dig out my books now, which is unfortunately, because its 1 AM, I don't know where they are boxed at, and my GF is goign to kill me)  :))

Diablo48

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4684
Re: Vehicle of the Week: Vedette
« Reply #104 on: 06 May 2012, 00:33:04 »
The problem with the Proto guns is range.  You need to get in to fairly close range to use them which makes the thin skinned Vidette more of a target than it wants to be.  The 5-X on the other hand has the reach to provide support from a safe distance and generate a decent anti-aircraft umbrella to make it more likely to get your budget tanks back in one piece so long as you have something else for them to support.  It also saves you a ton over the original standard weapon which could do some good if you invested it in something like thicker armor, although simply adding a second ton of ammo for the AC to let you carry slugs would be an easier refit.

The APGR would also be a useful upgrade for the Machine Gun due to the range increase and you do have to do something up there with the quarter ton Clan Machine Guns anyways, but the main gun should really be the priority for any upgrade which was why I did not mention the AP mount earlier.


View my design musings or request your own custom ride here.

rlbell

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 929
Re: Vehicle of the Week: Vedette
« Reply #105 on: 07 May 2012, 15:25:42 »
Paint your Vedettes white with little bits of black trim, and an imperial sigil on the nose.  They are, from utility to population, the Star Wars Stormtrooper of the CBT verse.  And they're about as useful - you can oppress some Jawas with them but not any real threat.

Imperial Stormtroopers have a bad rap based on the needs of the plot.  If stormtroopers were as accurate against named characters needed to advance the story as they were against nameless mooks dressing up the set to indicate that the main characters are in danger, A New Hope would have had a different title.  The only reason that the crew of the diplomatic courier resists the boarding attempt is that there needs to be a reason for Darth Vader to be striding through a corridor littered with corpses.  It is evident from the resistance put up by the rebels on the Ice Planet Hoth that imperial treatment of prisoners is worse than dying in the cold from a blaster wound.  Aside from interactions with named characters and cute fuzzy things, stormtroopers attacking rebels is much like clan Hellstars attacking Industrialmechs with improvised weapons.
Q: Why are children so cute?
A: So parents do not kill them.

That joke usually divides the room into two groups:  those that are mortally offended, and parents

A. Lurker

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4641
Re: Vehicle of the Week: Vedette
« Reply #106 on: 30 May 2012, 12:35:05 »
Random idea for a quick-and-dirty upgrade of whatever Succession Wars-era Vedettes you may still have lying around: replace the AC/5 with an MRM 20 and spend the ton freed up that way on either more armor or on carrying more than twelve salvos depending on just how optimistic you feel (I honestly wouldn't even bother thinking much about C3 or Apollo here). Sure -- you lose some range and accuracy and the option to use alternate munitions. But it's a cheap boost in firepower for an ultimately expendable tank, and there have to be some force commanders who'd consider that worth it. ;)

sandstorm

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1064
  • Slayers Clear the Way
Re: Vehicle of the Week: Vedette
« Reply #107 on: 30 May 2012, 13:52:39 »
Nice, even if that 1 ton doesn't really help much in either ammo or armor... :P

heck, the MRMs are actually pretty good weapons for Vedette in principle. Cheap vehicles coming in swarms, firing and turning tail to slash again and again if they are lucky.
Ex Dubio, Obscura
--------------------
"Only a warrior chooses pacifism; others are condemned to it."

oldfart3025

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 240
Re: Vehicle of the Week: Vedette
« Reply #108 on: 03 June 2012, 16:48:42 »

Back in the good old days, the Vedette was a reasonable, cost-effective, multi-role tank. It had a respectable movement rating, a decent main gun with respectable damage and range, fair armor for the time, and a better than nothing secondary weapon. It did several things well. Mobile fire support, security, COIN, reactive defense, generic gun carriage, infantry tank, and poor man's MBT. But's strongest role (and primary role, in my opinion) was that of a medium cavalry tank. And it was well suited for both militia and front line duties.

Variants were not really necessary for the design back then. But the ones we got made sense considering. The AC/2-SRM variant gave the Vedette a measure of safety outside the range of those pesky PPCs. Plus, the SRM Pack offered better defense against vehicles and light Battlemechs than the machine gun offered. The laser variant was better suited as a security and COIN unit than the base model tank.

In our playgroup, the Vedette weathered the early "Level Two" era well. Most of the SLDF vehicles from TRO:2750 tended to be specialists, rather than generalists, like Succession Wars stalwarts such as the Vedette. And most of the Battlemechs from that tome had the same issue. Very few SLDF units, as presented at that time, threatened basic combat vehicles like the Vedette with an early retirement to the scrap yard. The Vedette could still hold it's own on the tabletop if played right.

Then came Clan technology, and the Vedette (like many other vehicles from TRO:3026) went from being obsolescent to obsolete almost overnight. Rolling deathtraps of reduced effectiveness that were nothing more than glorified practice targets.

The Vedette concept still had a legitimate role to play. A cost effective, medium cavalry tank armed with a ballistic weapon as a main gun, was still a valid concept. But the definitions of what constituted "cost effective" had changed. Dragging along more Vedettes to make up for horrendous losses, and keep up previous levels of mission effectiveness against Clantech wasn't what I called "cost effective". I call it throwing away good units after the bad.

Add in the fact that Inner Sphere tech Battlemechs had been upgraded to variants that rival the now-rediscovered SLDF Royal units, the lowly, classic Vedette was in a no-win situation. It was now only fit for penal units and desperate planetary governments who bought anything that moved and mounted a gun.

I figured that FASA wasn't going to update vehicles anytime soon. And what's a combined-arms playgroup to do, but take matters into their own hands.

My group's "standard" Vedette upgrade? SFE, CASE, Ultra-5 AC, extra ton of AC ammo, two standard medium lasers (forward mounted), 0.25 tons of cargo, 7.5 tons of Ferro. Simple, no bullshit, and to the point. Nothing fancy and a Vedette for the advanced "level 2" tabletop.

The 3058 "upgrades" finally came along and I wasn't terribly impressed. The New Earth Trading Company variant doesn't address the key issues that hurt the Vedette in the modern era of Battletech. The Capellan built version was somewhat better, but had some issues of it's own. Since our House Rules at the time restricted what advanced technology were available to planetary militias, these variants were primarily merc fodder and used by independent worlds/collectives in our campaigns. Our in-house upgrade remained the "front line" Vedette of choice. Militias used the older variants with simple ferro-fibrous armor upgrades.

I will admit that the LB-5X version makes a decent tank destroyer and tactical air defense vehicle. The lack of ammo does limit options, however. Cluster munitions are the way to go in these roles, but limits it's defensive capability against some other units (like heavier Battlemechs).

Don't get me started on the RAC variant. It's a thin skinned deathtrap with piss poor ammo capacity in the magazine. Three tons is what I consider the minimum for the RAC/5. But that only adds insult to the injury of inexcusably poor armor. We never play this variant.

I don't much care for the LGR variant either. But it at least has the range to help keep it alive for a time, making it passable for fire support duties. Just make sure to pair it with units with good defenses in any fire support unit.

The V-G7X is actually a nice upgrade. I especially like the dual turret arrangement and Magshots for defense against battlearmor (reflecting some of the realities of the current timeframe in Battletech). The supercharger is sweet to have for those emergencies when getting the hell out of dodge is critical, and some uber-fast modern enemy unit wants you to stay and play for just a while longer. It's kinda overkill tech-wise, considering the flavor of the Vedette. But I still like it. So does the majority of my playgroup. So, it's fast becoming a "standard" variant for campaigns set in the coming new century.

The Blakist model has promise, despite the armor and fuel cell engine. Some may question the aft-firing SRM system. But sometime rear arc coverage is a good thing, especially when all flavors of infantry love sneaking up on tanks that are not moving. It can ruin your whole day. Overall, it has glaring flaws. But this variant shows that somebody was thinking outside of the box, until some bastard bean-counter stuck his or her nose in where it didn't belong.

The custom "Doris' Delight" has my interests. It may be the "ultimate" Vedette variant that still sticks with the basic role of the tank. We have yet to playtest it. But I suspect it very well could become yet another variant for the next century in Battletech time.

With the V7, we come to a vicious full circle. Pretty much back to square one. The same point that the classic base model was at in the dawn of the Clantech era. The armor is barely an improvement over the classic base variant, and it simply moves from one low tech engine to a lighter low tech engine still dependent on vulnerable fuel depots in a campaign. The Bombast Laser is a questionable, if mildly interesting choice. The only high points is the inclusion of CASE (for future mods) and the Magshots. Results have been...mixed with this thing. But thanks to changes in our House Tech Rules over the last couple of years, the V7 will definitely be militia fodder to replace the classic models in 32nd Century play. Leaving the better, higher tech variants for frontline use.

Just my two cents worth.











"That which I cannot crush with words alone, I shall crush with the tanks of the Imperial Guard!"~Lord Solar Macharius

glitterboy2098

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 12047
    • The Temple Grounds - My Roleplaying and History website
Re: Vehicle of the Week: Vedette
« Reply #109 on: 03 June 2012, 18:36:43 »
to be honest, i'm surprised there was never an official Infantry Fighting Vehicle variant. i mean, drop the AC to a AC2, pull half the Mg ammo, and pull 8 points of armor off the rear, and you can fit in a 3 ton infantry bay, letting you schlep around a full platoon of foot infantry.

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 29001
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Vehicle of the Week: Vedette
« Reply #110 on: 03 June 2012, 20:43:27 »
I have pretty much figured the thing putting the Vedette back into useful defensive duty is . . . the FCE.  With it I can put on a 2nd ton of ammo for the LBX, add in a MML7 w/2t ammo, and drastically increase the armor with HFF.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8392
Re: Vehicle of the Week: Vedette
« Reply #111 on: 29 June 2012, 00:54:30 »
When people use this how much AC/5 ammo do you find yourself using?

Slicer3025

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 75
Re: Vehicle of the Week: Vedette
« Reply #112 on: 29 June 2012, 03:26:35 »
1 ton of precision ammo or armor piercing is usually all you need.  For a Vedette to survive heavy combat for more than 8 rounds is a miracle in itself so 20 rounds is usually overkill.  And if u get a decent chance to hit you might as well risk it and rapid fire the sucker and risk having it blow up on you.

If the fighting is more low intensity (IE light mechs, vees, infantry) then its prolly better to go with a standard 20 shot warload.  The chances of insta dying are a lot lower so you have a greater chance of firing off your entire load.

Never use Vedettes in less than lance size, 5 pt pop gun hits arent gonna bring anything down except for bug mechs and to credibly threaten anything heavier would require numbers.

Personally my goomba of choice is still the Scorpion.  Easier to go pop to make the heroes seem all bad ass and still brings the same threat factor to the table with their ac/5 pop guns.

SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8392
Re: Vehicle of the Week: Vedette
« Reply #113 on: 29 June 2012, 04:19:03 »
I was actually thinking of a switch to a Heavy Rifle and if the low ammo would be noticed

markhall

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1435
  • "The Button's Stuck!"
Re: Vehicle of the Week: Vedette
« Reply #114 on: 29 June 2012, 08:21:46 »
When people use this how much AC/5 ammo do you find yourself using?
Generally as many as the game has rounds. Which for our group rounds out in the 14's. So when I have a lance of them on the table. I See no problem with swapping in Precision ammo. As it really helps them with hunting Skirmishers. Dropping a Nine to a Seven can really ruin a light mechs day.



I like to field the Vedette on mass. And This has generally worked well for it.
A lance will come in around 2,000 BV and if they work against one target they can bring some pain.  But still allow you to control Board area.
Finding a nice crop of Trees  to sit and Snipe at incoming forces before falling back to the safety of your own lines.

Or even as a flanking unit so long as the way is clear. You just can't ignore a Lance of tanks getting behind your forces.


I was actually thinking of a switch to a Heavy Rifle and if the low ammo would be noticed
Our troop has played about with the Vedette and new tech for a while.
My favourite is still a Light PPC variant.

The heavy rifle really offers little benefits to the design. The extra damage isn't worth the lack of shots. Unless you drop the MG for a second ton of ammo. Hidden in a pack of regular Vedettes it will surprise the enemy and help against those bigger targets.

Even looked into Mech mortars as an alternative. The Indirect ability can help the Tanks survivability.

Matti

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5085
  • In Rory we trust
Re: Vehicle of the Week: Vedette
« Reply #115 on: 29 June 2012, 13:51:02 »
Vedette is fast tracked tank. In its era (tech starved Succession Wars) only faster tracks are APCs and Galleon. Remember the speed and USE it! Hunter is just as fast and therefore makes good LRM support vehicle for Vedette.
You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights errant, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.

SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8392
Re: Vehicle of the Week: Vedette
« Reply #116 on: 21 August 2012, 21:40:39 »
Sorry for the Necro, but something caught my eye
Interestingly, no. Vedettes come in ICE, Fuel Cell, or XLFE, but no standard fusion engines.

Sarna lists the Magna Metals plant on Taurus not only producing the Vedette, but also the Warner 250B Fusion Engine for the Sabre ASF, so it's not as if there have not been opportunities to do so
Note: I checked the other Vedette plants, no other also produces 250 SFE's according to Sarna but Magna AREN'T listed as making it in the Vedette article

Diablo48

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4684
Re: Vehicle of the Week: Vedette
« Reply #117 on: 21 August 2012, 22:04:42 »
Sorry for the Necro, but something caught my eye
Sarna lists the Magna Metals plant on Taurus not only producing the Vedette, but also the Warner 250B Fusion Engine for the Sabre ASF, so it's not as if there have not been opportunities to do so
Note: I checked the other Vedette plants, no other also produces 250 SFE's according to Sarna but Magna AREN'T listed as making it in the Vedette article

Interesting, but not terribly surprising.  The Vedette is not exactly a high end vehicle so there is no reason to put a fusion engine into it, and the XLE model is very much an outlier.


View my design musings or request your own custom ride here.

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 29001
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Vehicle of the Week: Vedette
« Reply #118 on: 21 August 2012, 22:27:54 »
Which is why the FCE upgrade makes a lot of sense to increase its payload and combat capability.  Honestly, a LOT of forces that use armor should be making that switch.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

misterpants

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 717
  • Bringing you the beats and grooves of Xin Sheng
Re: Vehicle of the Week: Vedette
« Reply #119 on: 05 April 2017, 10:47:55 »
*crackle of thunder and lightning above an abandoned castle late at night*

IT'S ALLLIVVEEEE, ALLI- *ahem*

Was reminded about this due to the current Vedette thread in General Discussion; thoughts on the V9 from RS3145 NTNU?

On the one hand, a 5/8 Fuel Cell Gauss Rifle seems to be the budget MBT tankers have been clamoring for.

On the other hand, Reflective Armor and Magshots as the secondary weapons are...interesting choices, at least to me. 

On the gripping hand, the only IS power that the MUL gives this to is the Lyrans, with the Wolves, Falcons, and Horses having access on the Clan end. Needless to say the half-dead hamster on the wheel in my head is working up a sweat on this one.
Avatar by Blackjack Jones