to-hit rolls once TAG has been aquired

[GOTHIK]

so let's say I've established a tock with TAG ...
My TAG equiped vehicle is 5 hexes away from the target (Stinger) and My Archer is 12 hexes away.  Let's say there's 1 hex of light woods between the vehicle and the Stinger and two hexes of light woods between the Archer and the Stinger.
The vehicle cruised, the Archer ran, and the Stinger moved 5 hexes.

Would I want to use TAG in this situation?  Why or why not?
If I use it, how do I calculate the to-hit roll for the Archer?

Thanks for the help, guys!!!

[Ghostbear_Gurdel]

If you hit with the TAG and the Archer is carrying Semi-guided ammo for the LRMs, then when the Archer fires at the Stinger, the Stinger's movement is ignored. So effectively the Stinger stood still as far as the Archer is concerned.

[Maelwys]

If you're using Semi-Guided LRMs in the Archer, then TAGing the target allows you to ignore the target's movement modifier.

So you would calculate the to-hit number as normal for the Archer (+2 for 2 hexes of light woods, +2 for Archer running, +2 for medium range), but you would count the Stinger's movement as 0 (+0) instead of 5 (+2).

If the Archer was within range of its Medium Lasers, they wouldn't get the bonus, since TAG doesn't work for everything.

[GOTHIK]

If you hit with the TAG and the Archer is carrying Semi-guided ammo for the LRMs, then when the Archer fires at the Stinger, the Stinger's movement is ignored. So effectively the Stinger stood still as far as the Archer is concerned.

So the to-hit roll for the Archer would be:
Archers base + Archers mvmt + range btw Archer & Stinger + 2 hexes of light woods?

Also, do the missiles HAVE to be semi-guided ammo?  Let's say the Archer was a Warhammer ... could the PPCs be used in the same way?

[theothersarah]

Only a small number of special munitions benefit from TAG. Semiguided LRMs are one of them, as well as homing Arrow IVs, laser-guided bombs, and copperhead artillery rounds. There are a few more I'm missing I'm sure, but unguided and direct-fire weapons never benefit from it.

[Col.Hengist]

PPC's from the warhammer will receive no bonus from a tag.They aren't missiles.

[GOTHIK]

thanks for the answers, everyone.
I didn't mean to post a question that was already answered ... I guess I didn't see the message that another response had been posted while I was still typing Mine up.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Total Warfare and Tactical Operations are pretty explicit about what can benefit from TAG and what the bonuses are.

[DarkSpade]

Total Warfare and Tactical Operations are pretty explicit about what can benefit from TAG and what the bonuses are.

This part kind of confused me.  page 143  "If the to-hit roll is successful, the system designates the target for that turn's weapon attack phase; the target unit is designated for any number of attacks from any number of units using TAG."

My group has interpreted that as meaning a unit with TAG could make an indirect attack at an enemy "tagged" by another friendly even with normal LRM rounds.  We treated the attack as a normal indirect attack but without all the extra mods from(or to) the spotter.   Is that right or are we way off?

[Wolverine]

SAL is what TAG seems to be in todays terms,  SAL seekers can be fitted to a wide variety of weapons at reletively low costs (compared to a RF or EO seeker/sensor).   I don;t get the short TAG range tho, even lame TAG should outrange the targets they are painting !  I'd give TAG the same range as LRMS but give them a tougher to hit roll if they are on a mobile platform, that gives TAG infantry some edge as well.
J

[GOTHIK]

So it sounds like, even though TAG is legal as early as 3033 it's nearly useless until semi-guided missiles hit the scene in 3057.
The only benefit to fielding it prior to that year would be to eliminate the +1 modifier for indirect fire, right?

[theothersarah]

I thought you needed semiguided rounds to get any benefit from TAG when using LRMs. Is that not the case?

If TAG does indeed work with standard LRMs to eliminate the +1 indirect bonus then it's hardly useless! Especially since you don't need to care about spotter movement and shooting either.

[Col.Hengist]

Tag is useless with out the semi guided amunition or Arrow IV Tag guided munitions.

 I believe the semi-guided LRM ammo was made so the tag wasn't useless when the AIV carrier ran out of guided munitions.

This part kind of confused me.  page 143  "If the to-hit roll is successful, the system designates the target for that turn's weapon attack phase; the target unit is designated for any number of attacks from any number of units using TAG."

My group has interpreted that as meaning a unit with TAG could make an indirect attack at an enemy "tagged" by another friendly even with normal LRM rounds.  We treated the attack as a normal indirect attack but without all the extra mods from(or to) the spotter.   Is that right or are we way off?

 You may make any house rule you would like, nothing is stopping you.However, that not how it works.

[theothersarah]

Damn! That's what I thought but I really, really wanted to be wrong this time.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Semi-Guided LRMs are the only weapon in Total Warfare that are affected by TAG, but they're a late addition to what TAG was originally used for: Arrow IV Missile Artillery.

TAG was originally developed to be used in conjunction with Arrow IV Homing rounds by the Star League.  Post Clan Invasion, Copperhead rounds for tube artillery, Semi-Guided LRMs, and Semi-Guided Mortar rounds were also developed.

[willydstyle]

So it sounds like, even though TAG is legal as early as 3033 it's nearly useless until semi-guided missiles hit the scene in 3057.
The only benefit to fielding it prior to that year would be to eliminate the +1 modifier for indirect fire, right?

It only eliminates the +1 for indirect fire if the LRMs are semi-guided.

Another important aspect of the TAG/semi-guided combo is that it allows the TAG-firing mech to fire its other weapons  without incurring the additional +1 to hit for the spotting and indirect firing unit that a spotting mech firing its weapons usually incurs.

[Col.Hengist]

Narc is so much better...

[willydstyle]

Narc is so much better...

I think if you're playing TW level rules, NARC is better specifically for indirect fire.  However, the ability for semi-guided LRMs to ignore TMM is a pretty big boost to accuracy that NARC just doesn't give.  NARC also weighs a lot more and has explosive ammo.  Personally, I don't think either system is a great thing to base your strategy around.

[theothersarah]

Both ammo types make the Raven a fantastic companion for your missile 'mechs though ;D

[GOTHIK]

this sucks for scenarios prior to 3057.  :(

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Semi-Guided LRMs aren't widely distributed post 3057- the FWL is the only faction that produces them.

[monbvol]

Sort of.

Tech Manual kind of contradicts itself a bit.  The Federated Commonwealth are expressly mentioned as using TAG to help guide Laser Guided Bombs as early as the 3040s and yet the re-intro date for Laser Guided Bombs is listed as 3060 for the FWL.

Hell pretty much all the dates it lists for re-intro for bombs make no sense and there are a couple I'd argue that are listed as going extinct that really shouldn't have.

[ANS Kamas P81]

Throw it in the errata forum then, it's worth noting.

[willydstyle]

Semi-Guided LRMs aren't widely distributed post 3057- the FWL is the only faction that produces them.

Yeah, but if you're just playing the game, and want to have fun with semi-guided, who cares?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

If you're playing in a game that's set at a particular time, one would assume that you're trying to keep things faction specific as well.

[theothersarah]

If you're playing in a game that's set at a particular time, one would assume that you're trying to keep things faction specific as well.

And if you love LRMs there's pretty much no better choice than the FWL anyways. Trebuchet, Apollo, Yeoman, Perseus A, and even the Patriot for on-board Arrow IV action. Plus access to the Raven ;D

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Well, this is certainly a notable occasion: someone mentioned the Yeoman with something other than derision.

[Weirdo]

If you're a FWL player, anything with as many LRMs as a Yeoman is a great 'mech. O0

Also, people are forgetting that TAG will also provide a -2 bonus for any orbital strike, even using ballistic or energy capital weapons. Given how huge an effect the MoF has on shots drifting, this will be a massive benefit ifwhen you miss.

[Jim1701]

If you're playing in a game that's set at a particular time, one would assume that you're trying to keep things faction specific as well.

Nope. :)

[theothersarah]

Well, this is certainly a notable occasion: someone mentioned the Yeoman with something other than derision.

The Yeoman is pretty much the Free Worlds League's love of LRMs manifesting itself in physical form. A congealed blob of LRMs with legs. If you like LRMs what's not to love ;D

Also, people are forgetting that TAG will also provide a -2 bonus for any orbital strike, even using ballistic or energy capital weapons. Given how huge an effect the MoF has on shots drifting, this will be a massive benefit ifwhen you miss.

...I don't think I want to be within 15 hexes of an orbital strike target. Even with the bonus. My insurance doesn't cover wrath of God.

[Weirdo]

The trick is to be exactly 15 hexes from the target hex, and call down a salvo of capital missiles, which get even more bonuses.

[Youngblood]

This part kind of confused me.  page 143  "If the to-hit roll is successful, the system designates the target for that turn's weapon attack phase; the target unit is designated for any number of attacks from any number of units using TAG."

My group has interpreted that as meaning a unit with TAG could make an indirect attack at an enemy "tagged" by another friendly even with normal LRM rounds.  We treated the attack as a normal indirect attack but without all the extra mods from(or to) the spotter.   Is that right or are we way off?

From what I recall, this is actually right.  Essentially, for the price of 1 ton, 1 crit, and having to make a to-hit roll (instead of automatically spotting with a penalty), you get the advantage of not having to deal with spotter movement/terrain issues.

The cool part?  Thunderbolt Missile Launcher systems ALSO work this way too. >:D

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

There are Semi-Guided rounds for Thunderbolts?

[Jim1701]

There are Semi-Guided rounds for Thunderbolts?

Not that I am aware of.  Thunderbolt launchers currently only use standard munitions. 

[ANS Kamas P81]

You can still use TAG to "spot" - the benefit is to the TAGing unit, which doesn't suffer the additional +1 to its own weapons fire normal spotting would do.  So you can call down the Thunder while still freeing up your own guns, even without semi-guided weapons.  You'll still have to deal with attacker movement, in that case, but the benefit of being able to blast away yourself without fear sure makes those heavily armed TAG units much happier...it's not a big shift, but +1 is +1.

[Weirdo]

The big difference is that those normal rounds recieve NO benefit from a TAG. You fire standard LRMs or Thunderbolts at a TAGged target and you don't have a regular spotter, you odds of a miss average around 100%.

[GOTHIK]

From what I recall, this is actually right.  Essentially, for the price of 1 ton, 1 crit, and having to make a to-hit roll (instead of automatically spotting with a penalty), you get the advantage of not having to deal with spotter movement/terrain issues.

The cool part?  Thunderbolt Missile Launcher systems ALSO work this way too. >:D

hang on a second ... are you saying that when using TAG you do NOT incurr to-hit modifiers based on terrain?
so in My example earlier, the Archer would NOT receive a +2 for the light woods?
If this is the case, does the negation of the terrain modifier ONLY apply to the special munitions as discussed above?

[Weirdo]

Spotter terrain issues. If you're performing a direct shot instead of indirect fire, terrain between the shooter and target still counts.

Though you are correct in that it only benefits TAG-specific munitions. Just like everything else TAG does only benefits TAG-specific munitions.

Hint: TAG does nothing at all to benefit non-TAG-specific munitions.

[Col.Hengist]

 Question is...Indirect firing with sg rounds.

 Defender is in a woods hex. Tagging unit has to pay for the woods at +1 for a light.

 Launching unit- does it have to pay for the hex that the Defender is in?

 Narc was errated so that the launching unit does not pay for the woods hex that the defender is in.

[GOTHIK]

Spotter terrain issues. If you're performing a direct shot instead of indirect fire, terrain between the shooter and target still counts.

you can use TAG for indirect fire as well though, right? (thereby negating the following to-hit modifiers: +1 for indirect, +x for terrain, and +x for target movement)

[Weirdo]

you can use TAG for indirect fire as well though, right? (thereby negating the following to-hit modifiers: +1 for indirect, +x for terrain, and +x for target movement)

Yes. But only if you are firing S-G LRMs.

Question is...Indirect firing with sg rounds.

 Defender is in a woods hex. Tagging unit has to pay for the woods at +1 for a light.

 Launching unit- does it have to pay for the hex that the Defender is in?

 Narc was errated so that the launching unit does not pay for the woods hex that the defender is in.

I'm actually not sure here...

[Sartris]

And if you love LRMs there's pretty much no better choice than the FWL anyways. Trebuchet, Apollo, Yeoman, Perseus A, and even the Patriot for on-board Arrow IV action. Plus access to the Raven ;D

Longbow, Archer 8M, 9M, Orion,  Anvil 8M (for Arrow IV), Stalker.  Even the lowly Hammer has some utility with SG.

Well, this is certainly a notable occasion: someone mentioned the Yeoman with something other than derision.

Hey! I love my walking boombox.

[GOTHIK]

Yes. But only if you are firing S-G LRMs.

I goth the SG LRM part no problem  ;)
Thank you for confirming the rest!

[pensiveswetness]

in my campaign, the TAG(P) units are used for Indirect Spotting/Weapons Firing from the Spotter Mech since I've not introduced Arrow-IV systems yet. they are a nice niche device, taking away 1 ton of urge to generate 3-more heat you otherwise can't dispate...  O0. i can imagine TAG, using home rules of course, could be Role-Played for artillery hexing as well (the laser verifies the Hex location the shells will land... in 2-3 rounds, give or take the price of Olive Oil...

(P) = Prototype, with all sorts of fun things happening when you roll a 2...  ;D

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I goth the SG LRM part no problem  ;)
Thank you for confirming the rest!

You goth it?

So it's wearing black eyeliner? ;D

[GOTHIK]

You goth it?

So it's wearing black eyeliner? ;D

buwahahahaha!!!  that was an honest type.

[Warpimp]

Quick TAG question: When I TAG for Arrow IV fire do I have to have the target tagged on the turn the round hits or the turn I fire or both?

[Weirdo]

just the turn of impact.

[Youngblood]

The big difference is that those normal rounds recieve NO benefit from a TAG. You fire standard LRMs or Thunderbolts at a TAGged target and you don't have a regular spotter, you odds of a miss average around 100%.

Yes. But only if you are firing S-G LRMs.

Wha?  I could swear there was something in Total Warfare about TAG proxying for a spotter...now I look like a fool.

[Warpimp]

That would be nice. I always thought TAG had a very small role and yet got slapped on every other design for a few years. I even use artillery somewhat often.

[Weirdo]

Wha?  I could swear there was something in Total Warfare about TAG proxying for a spotter...now I look like a fool.

S'okay, we all mess up every so often.

To clarify, TAG only helps S-G LRMs, homing Arrow IV, Copperhead artillery, laser-guided bombs, and orbital strikes. It's a bit of a narrow niche, but those items it helps, it REALLY helps.

[Jim1701]

To be fair the rules for TAG itself is not terribly clear.  You have to looks at the munitions that benefit from TAG to get the rest of the story. 

[willydstyle]

To be fair the rules for TAG itself is not terribly clear.  You have to looks at the munitions that benefit from TAG to get the rest of the story.

Yeah, that's my biggest beef with TW: some stuff like TAG and NARC could use some cross-referencing, where it really doesn't have any.

[pensiveswetness]

To be fair the rules for TAG itself is not terribly clear.  You have to looks at the munitions that benefit from TAG to get the rest of the story.

*mumbles*

[Weirdo]

I use the index. Works every time.

[bakija]

Yeah, that's my biggest beef with TW: some stuff like TAG and NARC could use some cross-referencing, where it really doesn't have any.

Yeah, this is actually a significant problem. I spent *weeks* trying to figure out what, exactly, TAG actually did. As the rules for TAG are incredibly vague, and make no reference at all to Semi-Guided Missiles. Which, unless you already know benefit from TAG, you have no way to know you need to look up Semi-Guided Missiles (or Arrow IV, I'd imagine) to make TAG make sense. Until someone here pointed that out. What was very helpful :-)

[bakija]

I use the index. Works every time.

If you don't know that "Semi-Guided Missiles" are something that goes with TAG, but you do know that TAG is something that exists and helps missiles somehow, using the index has zero effect. As the rules for TAG don't reference Semi-Guided Missiles. And without knowing that Semi-Guided Missiles exist (which isn't at all unreasonable, especially if learning the game or coming back to the game), looking at TAG is mostly pointless.

[Weirdo]

Interestingly enough, you're right about this one. Though also interestingly enough, looking up TAG in the index actually does point you to same same page as S-G LRMs, if you look up about six inches.

You are right in that TAG should list the munitions it works with. I'd recommend suggesting this to the devs, they might be able to fit it in whenever they next update TW.

[bakija]

Interestingly enough, you're right about this one. Though also interestingly enough, looking up TAG in the index actually does point you to same same page as S-G LRMs, if you look up about six inches.

Semi-Guided Missiles and TAG are even on the same page in the TW rules. And Semi-Guided Missiles reference TAG (with a "TAG, to the right"). But TAG doesn't reference Semi-Guided Missiles. I realize that one might stumble into this, but given that I had the experience of spending a significant amount of time reading the TAG rules and not ever managing to notice the Semi-Guided Missiles that were on the same page, 6 inches away, I suspect that it isn't that uncommon of an issue :-)

You are right in that TAG should list the munitions it works with. I'd recommend suggesting this to the devs, they might be able to fit it in whenever they next update TW.

Probably a good idea.

[Warpimp]

I too have spent quite a while staring at the TAG rules and wondering what I am missing since every third post in the forum references it an how people will use it to kill everything. But it's pretty much for Arrow IV homing missles and rare lrm munitions and orbital strikes.

[Weirdo]

Something tells me the S-G LRMs haven't been rare for quite some time...

[Warpimp]

When I stopped playing years ago the world was at about 3055. I'm still working my way back in...

[ANS Kamas P81]

Don't forget the benefits to the spotter.  Normally a spotter has a +1 to their own weapons fire while spotting for indirect LRM fire.  Using TAG to spot with instead of your regular spotting means that your weapons fire no longer has that +1 "firing while spotting" penalty.  It doesn't help your indirect fire, unfortunately.  This lets your close attack TAG-equipped units spot for indirect fire as normal, but they're actually more useful in the close-attack role they're participating in and aren't standing around whiffing as much.

[Warpimp]

and that is without S-G ammo?

[Col.Hengist]

and that is without S-G ammo?

 Once again,lrm round need to be sg to get the benefit of the tag. You can tag for regular lrm's all day but the tag does nothing other than make a pretty hologram.

 As Weirdo and others have posted. Tag only works with guided arrow IV,sg lrm's, copperheads and orbital strikes...not Indirect without sg.

[ANS Kamas P81]

and that is without S-G ammo?

If you were replying to my post, the ammo type doesn't matter.  That only affects the indirect firing unit - the unit with the TAG designator won't be firing indirectly, but it can directly-fire SG LRMs of its own and ignore the target movement if it successfully TAGs.  The TAG itself still has to take target movement into account, but you only need to make one roll for it - and if you have a lot of LRM launchers, well, you can always not fire them if the TAG misses and save ammo; TAG coming in the indirect phase means you'll be able to decide before weapons fire.

And like it's been said, TAG also works for artillery and other goodness, not just semiguided.

[Weirdo]

If you were replying to my post, the ammo type doesn't matter.  That only affects the indirect firing unit - the unit with the TAG designator won't be firing indirectly, but it can directly-fire SG LRMs of its own and ignore the target movement if it successfully TAGs.  The TAG itself still has to take target movement into account, but you only need to make one roll for it - and if you have a lot of LRM launchers, well, you can always not fire them if the TAG misses and save ammo; TAG coming in the indirect phase means you'll be able to decide before weapons fire.

And like it's been said, TAG also works for artillery and other goodness, not just semiguided.

TAGging does indeed enable the spotter to fire normally, but you should remember that if you're going to fire non-S-G LRMs indirectly, you're still going to need a non-TAG spotter. The TAG laser is about as relevant to non-S-G indirect fire as the Magic game at the next table is.

[Col.Hengist]

Saying that you don't have to pay the +1 for the second target after you taged while indirect even when not using sg rounds is bad rules lawyering and imo very unsportsmanlike.

[pensiveswetness]

Derp.  O0

[Weirdo]

Saying that you don't have to pay the +1 for the second target after you taged while indirect even when not using sg rounds is bad rules lawyering and imo very unsportsmanlike.

It's also outright cheating, unless it's a previously agreed-upon house rule.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Saying that you don't have to pay the +1 for the second target after you taged while indirect even when not using sg rounds is bad rules lawyering and imo very unsportsmanlike.

It's not rules lawyering, it's flat out ignoring the rules.

[willydstyle]

It's not rules lawyering, it's flat out ignoring the rules.

"Rules Lawyer" is a term much like "munchkin" that really doesn't have a strict meaning.  For some people a rules lawyer is simply someone who knows the rules really well and expects their opponent to play by official rules.  For some people a rules lawyer is someone who "bends" the rules in their favor.  For some people a rules lawyer is someone who just flat-out cheats, but tries to use the rules to do so.

[ANS Kamas P81]

Saying that you don't have to pay the +1 for the second target after you taged while indirect even when not using sg rounds is bad rules lawyering and imo very unsportsmanlike.

I wasn't saying anything about second targets; my only comment that might be rules lawyering was that you can decide whether to fire your own S-G LRMs (if you have them) and get the no-target-movement-modifier bonus after you resolve whether or not you TAG that target.

[SCC]

TAG, unlike C3 spotter, needs full LOS right? So one 'Mech can't both TAG a target and in-direct fire upon it with SG in the same turn, right?

[Ghostbear_Gurdel]

correct. But if you can TAG for your own SG missiles, you can at least remove the pesky Target movement modifier from the equation.

[Weirdo]

I wasn't saying anything about second targets; my only comment that might be rules lawyering was that you can decide whether to fire your own S-G LRMs (if you have them) and get the no-target-movement-modifier bonus after you resolve whether or not you TAG that target.

That's not rules-lawyering, that's outright legal. TAG is fired and resolved in the spotting phase, before all normal weapons fire and declarations are made. Therefore, nothing at all requires you to lock yourself into firing S-Gs when you decide to fire your TAG. It's like a Hunchback deciding not to fire his AC/20 after all, because he failed his initiative roll and his opponent moved behind him. Nothing  in the initiative or movement phase locked him into firing the cannon, and for the same reason, nothing in the TAG roll locks you into firing S-Gs.

TAG, unlike C3 spotter, needs full LOS right? So one 'Mech can't both TAG a target and in-direct fire upon it with SG in the same turn, right?

correct. But if you can TAG for your own SG missiles, you can at least remove the pesky Target movement modifier from the equation.

Correct. S-Gs benefit from TAG in both indirect and direct shots.

[SCC]

It was more that you couldn't do something silly, like park behind some trees that block LOS, TAG someone trough said trees then because you lack LOS indirect and get better mods

[brotherelf]

It was more that you couldn't do something silly, like park behind some trees that block LOS, TAG someone trough said trees then because you lack LOS indirect and get better mods

MaxTech had Mast Mounts for VTOLs which let you (IIRC) mount one of: C3s, TAG, Beagle as if it were one level higher. Scratch that, it let you trace LOS as if you were one level higher and couldn't mount a TAG in there, so even then, a VTOL couldn't TAG for its own indirect fire.

[theothersarah]

MaxTech had Mast Mounts for VTOLs which let you (IIRC) mount one of: C3s, TAG, Beagle as if it were one level higher. Scratch that, it let you trace LOS as if you were one level higher and couldn't mount a TAG in there, so even then, a VTOL couldn't TAG for its own indirect fire.

Not TAG, but mast mounts let you spot for LRM indirect fire, and the recent TacOps errata lets a VTOL spot for itself! So far the only canon VTOL that can make use of that is the Hawk Moth with a Thunderbolt launcher.